What's the line between facism and patriotism?

[American Kid]

Good evening.

I know what facism is, I've read about it. I think it's rediculous. And I've read a number of posts here wherein people accuse America of being a facist state what with all the flags and stars and bars and etc....

And I thought it was just more ignorant anti-Americanism til I took a second to consider what I saw around me, coupled with the definition of facism.

And then, free thinker that I am, I thought holy shit! They're right! We're all brain-fuckin'-washed!!!!!!!!

But then I took another moment and stepped away from my little knee-jerk reaction and took solace from my anxieties in the definition of another word, patriotism. And I started to wonder...........which is the present situation? Is all this flag-waving I see a product of state-run propaganda, or regular people taking genuine pride in their country which they've lived in all their lives?

And I think it's a situation depending on the current "state of the nation." For all you "forenerz" who ain't never been the 'Merica, I can tell you, as a tax paying citizen, that in the weeks following 9/11, I could hardly find a car on the road without an American Flag flapping from it's car antennae. Now was that facism?

In my opinion, absolutely not. Personally, I was scared shitless for a few weeks, and all that solidarity made me feel................at ease. It was a strange time, and we all reacted by sticking together and showing support. I wouldn't have it any other way. And for the dissenters, well if it'd been commercial airliners crashing into the sides of skyscrapers in your Euro nation, I have a hard time believing you wouldn't feel the need to band together a bit also. So you could fucking sleep at night.

Now?..............Well, this is a different situation. I find myself questioning every-fucking-thing I see on TV that GWB says. Everything. I get the perilous, sinking feeling like we might be all getting duped. It's scary. I mean..............is it oil? Is that why we're going over there? God, I hope not. Does he have weapons of mass destruction?

Well how the fuck would I know? I fix watches.

It's a tense, surreal time, ripe for second-guessing. Do I feel as good, or proud of my gov now as much as I did a year ago? Not even close. In fact, I'm left skeptical of it. I watched Nightline last night. They were in Baghdad interviewing students. They were like normal kids my age. They spoke english. They seemed cool. Some of the girls were pretty. It looked like a normal campus. And the whole time I'm think (screaming):

Get the fuck out of there! Jesus they're going to start dropping bombs on your fucking heads! Get-the-fuck-out-of-there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It sucks. It's a shitty situation. But at the same time, the Nightline people said that the "free speech" was limited. They were followed around by Iraqi spooks the whole time, monitered.

I dont' want them to live like that either. But how do we rectify this? Oust Saddam? But then by doing that, do we have to kill them?

Seems sort of counter-productive, doesn't it? Bombing Peter to pay Paul.

I don't know. It's out of my hands.

And in reference to whether or not I'll be waving the flag around?

Not any time soon.
-ak

[peaccenicked]

AK. Your post despite faults is a very brave step forward in the direction of socialist thinking. I commend you.
Keep it up.

[Stormin Norman]

Congratulations, you are about to make best friends with the most rabid mad dog leftist on this bulletin board. When peace dick gives you congratulations you know you are heading in the wrong direction.

[j]

Stormin-So are we to judge opinions by whether or not SOMEONE ELSE thinks they are good or not?

I am hardly the most hard core leftist on this board and I think what he said made good sense. You see, I too when through the same thing after 9/11. No I didn't go out and wave a flag or call for a war on terrorism. But I was, as my students say, "shook." I was scared. It was a surreal world that I saw around me. In fact, 9/11 surrealness is what guided me back to thinking about politics. When I was in High School and college I was really into the whole political thing, but after I graduated and started in the working world my time was more precious and I became very selfish and didn't even register to vote when I moved to Boston. It took the events of 9/11 and critical look at how people responded to it to bring me back to reality. The reality of things is that there are a whole lot of poor and exploited people in the world. There is a small elite group that controls everything. There is something deadly wrong with that. Almost every social problem you can think of can be traced back to economics or socioeconomic status. Things are NOT equal and WE must do something about it. Is communism the way? Perhaps. Is anarchy the way? Not likely. Is capitalism the way? Definitly not. So then what do we do?

WEB DuBois said the problem of the twentieth century is the color line. In the twenty-first it's the class line.

j

[vox]

Shucks, I thought I was the "most rabid mad dog leftist on this bulletin board." I must be mellowing in my old age.

As for the topic, here's a nice little quote from Emma Goldman (oh know! An anarchist! Will the Stalinists ever forgive me?!?!?):

"Conceit, arrogance and egotism are the essentials of patriotism.... Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who had the fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all others."

I think I've said here before that I do not love countries, I love people. Patriotism stands in the way of that by placing artificial borders around people intended to alienate them as the Other.

vox

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from vox on 1:00 pm on Nov. 27, 2002
Shucks, I thought I was the "most rabid mad dog leftist on this bulletin board." I must be mellowing in my old age.

It's ok you'll get back in there...hell Ali came back in his old age...oh wait he got his ass beaten

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 12:27 pm on Nov. 27, 2002
Congratulations, you are about to make best friends with the most rabid mad dog leftist on this bulletin board. When peace dick gives you congratulations you know you are heading in the wrong direction.


So if peace thought that drinking melted plastic was wrong then you would drink it just to spite him? Not a good way tothink things out

Anyway Patriotism is fine, but there is a thin line.

And I'm more concerned of how it can lead to prejudice.

Now people ahve taken it to teh extremes in some places.

Nothing wrong with loving your country, hell i love it for the simple fact that it's my home) I hate the government but I love my home.

But I'm not going to hate anyone who disagrees

[Stormin Norman]

Of course, that was meant only as a shot at peace dick. I too agree with some of AK's reflections. I diverge from his opinion most sharply when he begins to question the validity of the war in Iraq, but he is entitled to his opinions. No I do not judge AK's writings based on what peace dick thinks. Anyone here should know exactly what value I place on his opinions, by now. In short, I don't give two shits for what he thinks.

I will have to get back to you guys with my discourse about the difference between patriotism and nationalism. Presently there are areas that interest me more on this board. Rest assured I will return to this topic, for it touches on an extremely significant idea.

[American Kid]

Ah, the high price of being a moderate.

workin' the room,
-AK

[Panamarisen]

I very much agree with Emma Goldman´s quote by vox. I feel exactly the same way in what has to do with patriotism.

Patriotism is different from nationalism. Indeed, I don´t see a link or relationship between facism and patriotism -except for some individuals. Facism has to do with an exacerbated and very wrong nationalism point of view.

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[Jaha]

the working people of the world have no country.

they therefore cannot be patriots.

patriotism is not something i approve of.

ESPECIALLY BLIND PATRIOTS. THEY JUST PISS ME OFF.

[Xvall]

Ooh yeah! Gotta love that 'American Pride' that went down after 9/11! Not to mention the several arabic people around Chicago, including a nine year old kid, who was shot dead for having the wrong skin color!

[Xvall]

Ah, and a good reminder about blind patriotism, Jaha. I can guarentee you that ninety precent of those 'flag wavers' couldn't tell you what their seventh amendment is.

[Moskitto]

The funniest thing i've seen was on about 9/12 i went to a website and it came up with a pop-up ad, "show you're pride, buy an american flag today", and I laughed, classic,

[El Che]

Whats the difference? Well there are obvious differences. Facism is the institutionalization of ultra-nationalism as the ideology of the state. The supreme incarnation of nation and nationality is the state, of course. State (as the encarnation of the nation) above all else, above question. The only difference between Facism and other despotic systems of governace is the ideology used as base.

But anyway I think the point of your post is that even un-institutionalized nationalism is preverse in nature or at least has preverse consequences. No leftist in his right mind would disagree.

Also, has it ever occurred to you that by incentivating blind patriotism the goverment reenforces its own position? The question is pertinent indeed. There are similarities and interesting analogies between a generally "patriotic" society and a Fascist society. Moreover I believe there is ample evidence that your goverment incentivates, foments, promotes, through a variety of means and institutions, nationalism.

[suffianr]

Malaysia's largest political party, the United Malays National Organisation (UMNO) - currently one of three leading race-based parties in the ruling coalition - was set up to protest against the citizenship rights of Chinese and Indian labourers brought in by the British Colonial government, before our independence in 1957.

But you won't see that in the text books, where it tells you that the Malays, at the time, championed the movement for emancipation and liberation from the Whites, and led the drive for independence!

Now just how fucking patriotic is that??? :cheesy:

[j]

Quote: from Moskitto on 5:08 pm on Nov. 27, 2002
The funniest thing i've seen was on about 9/12 i went to a website and it came up with a pop-up ad, "show you're pride, buy an american flag today", and I laughed, classic,


This is typical in America. After you see this shit 24-7 it becomes less funny and more scary.

Patriotism is the love of country. Nationalism is the mobilization for love of that country. Facism is the state instutionalization of love for that country. It's a continuum:

good<---patriotism-------nationalism--------facism---->bad

And neither communism nor capitalism fit into this continuum. Patriotism, Nationalism, and Facism are all possible in both systems.

j

[Moskitto]

i laughed because buying an american flag doesn't really show my patriotism, being as i'm not american,

[Anonymous]

patriotism IS nacionalism, yes, it is and nothing you say or do will change it...

since my 6 years i am forced to not only sing my pathetic, inacurate anthem but also salut the flag, i had to do this stupid nacionalist propaganda for 4 years, but that isnt nationalism right? oh right thats patriotism..
i learned my countrys history, yet did they teached me important details in my countrys history like the fact that our first king wasnt really son of who they say he was? At school my teacher told me that a specific women wich name i wount tell because its irelevent did something great and honorable, yet what she did was kill 7 unharmed spaniards that were hiding in the bakery, renouncing to every single bit of humanity in that medieval soul! (she did fought against the spaniards that were making an allience with the high nobles and burguase, fighting along with the people and the litle burguase and litle nobility, the war was won and portugal achieved his independenc once again after 70 years of spaniard control), now this are only twoo examples, and i am shure taht if i look deep i will find many more...

yes my friends, patriotism IS nationalism, in the past , before WWI, it was even cool to be nacionalist, you were automaticly a good person if you were a nacionalist, yet after WWII nacionalism was a evil thing due to fascism and nazism, so people started to be patriotic instead of being nacionalist, and now who wasnt patriotic was seen as a doblecrosser and traitor, it is time to smash patriotism, patriotism IS nacionalism, its two words for the same bulshit. believe me i have sufered the efects of taht patriotism, and i know what i speak about

and so i will doble what people alredy said, the people have no country, proletariat, working class, majoritys around the world arent american, french portuguese etc, are HUMANS, not members of some lands with boarders that dictate theyr culture and costums, the people have no nacionality, and so we must fight for theyr freedom and rule even if we have to travel along the world.... (a bit like Che did)

(Edited by the anarchist at 11:26 pm on Dec. 2, 2002)

[Tkinter1]

He is an idiot.

[j]

Well, when you are an anarchist anything even slightly patriotic is bad. To an anarchist patriotism, nationalism, facism they all go against what an anarchist believes. Sooooooo.......that's the kind of response I would expect.

Now, I'm not an anarchist and I think my simplistic breakdown works in general. If you want, you could make it look like this:

good<--anarchy----patriotism----nationalism---facism-->bad

Anarchy is an ideal. Probability is close to zero but it is the ideal world. However, in the current world patriotism is not that bad. It's the fervent patriotism that leads to nationalism and facism that is dangerous. I follow the anarchist's logic here, yet I don't necessarily agree with it.

j

[Anonymous]

1- my felings towards patriotism and nacionalism come before the times i didnt even knew what communism was, what makes the point of being a anarchist makes me instantly hate patriotism incorrect..

2-patriotism is indeed a primitive stage of nacionalism, although it can mean not AS bad as nacionalism, it will grow, and if the education isnt the best, and honestly, nowdays education shouldnt even be considered education, its just a mix of maths, incomplete history, forgoten geography, and bad ass morals, and this my friends, its the bether soil for a blind nationalism, so nowdays patriotism is nacionalism, like my example, people are singing anthems and saluting flags they dont really know, what makes them blind followers of something they dont really understand, history classes are the best propagnda the state has, when anti-communist history is teached in west countrys (again i also suffered a anti-communist education), when pro-capitalist and incorrect propagandistic history is teached towards some wars, like vietnam war, korean civil war etc then patriotism is not simply loving your country, but pure and cruel nationalism..

(Edited by the anarchist at 7:21 pm on Dec. 4, 2002)

[j]

Patriotism is the love for country. Isn't anarchy the abandonment of all government and therefore country?

Yes patriotism is a stage in development of nationalism--that's what a continuum is.

j

[Anonymous]

so is nationalism...

and you made a terrible mistake in your graphic, you cant say Nationalism------------}Fascism because Fascism is nationalism, therefore by being nationalist you are being fascist....

[Umoja]

Their is a Gas Station across from my school. A few middle-Eastern men recently gained management of it. The second day after they moved in they covered the place in American flags..... That's the negative effects of Nationalism on peoples minds, these people must have been scared of the hateful New Jersey WASP, but who isn't scared of them?

[Anonymous]

that proves my theory, patriotis blinds your soul (fully aware of the unexistence of such thing as souls and any other thing related to theism or any other irracional theory..)

[antieverything]

Patriotism and Nationalism often are important parts of Fascism but they aren't the same thing as Fascism.

[j]

Facism is nationalism that is state policy. Things like you must fly a flag. Nationalism that is NOT state policy can not be facism.

In the US there are many nationalists and patriots. Some policies that this country has are facist.

Anarchy-No country, therefore no love for country
Patriotism-Country, you love it and show it
Nationalism-Country, you love it and show it with unabashed ferver
Facism-Country, people are mandated to love it and show it with unabashed ferver

Four simmilar concepts to different degrees.

j

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Patriotism and facism are pretty close. How more scared a nation becomes how more they unite. After 11-9 u saw it too. First there was great patriotism in the US and when they heard that it was done by "sandniggers" it turned into massive facism and racism. The mass thinking" It were the fuckin "sandniggers" and they want to destroy "democratie" and "the american dream".

[antieverything]

To expand on J's definitions...

I think of Patriotism is love of one's country...dictionary.com defines it as Love of country; devotion to the welfare of one's country; the virtues and actions of a patriot; the passion which inspires one to serve one's country.

I think of Nationalism as the belief that one's nation is superior to all others...which is quite different than simply loving it because it is your home country...dictionary.com defines it as the conviction that the culture and interests of your nation are superior to those of any other nation

I think of Fascism as a repressive form of government which is in character by and for a few ruling elite and stresses sacrifice for the 'people' or 'motherland' or some other such foolishness...dictionary.com defines it as A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. The nationalism and racism are simply tools used by the fascist to forward fascism.



(Edited by antieverything at 8:26 pm on Dec. 8, 2002)

[Anonymous]

yes i understend, but without nationalism you cant have fascism, though you can have nationalism without fascism....