What is the leftist position on immigration?

[spartan]

I like to frequent lots of forums which have members of many different political beliefs some of which arent all that progressive, but the point is one of the recurring themes coming up on all these forums, regardless of political ideology, is immigration and it's often negative effects.

Now as a leftist i am very much in the minority on some of these predominantly right wing forums when i say that everyone has the right to go where they want to work and live and borders shouldnt stop them. (It's a basic human right)

To them however, immigration is the cause of most of the problems in Britain and for leftists to simply disregard these genuine fears of working class people would be wrong IMO.

They say that immigration has led to a massive population increase in Britain and this is putting a strain on our already overburdened and under funded public services. In some places it is also causing tensions between communities with different cultures, ethnicities and religions so much so that some areas are now either predominantly asian or predominantly white for example. (Ghettoisation)

The point i think some of these people are trying to make is that it is unfair on the working class people, who were here before the immigrants came, to suffer the consequences which uncontrolled immigration has given them, especially since they never gave their consent to any immigrants being allowed in and use the taxpayer funded public services.

Some would say "the British working class needs to unite with their immigrant comrades and start striking, revolution, etc" but, call me a realist, i dont see that happening anytime in the near future. What i do see happening almost all the time is working class people blaming immigrants for "taking our jobs", "putting a massive strain on our public services", "overcrowding our very small island", etc and far-right anti-immigrant parties like the BNP getting more popular every election on the back of all this fear and concern.

Now most of this we know is what the Bourgeois class wants the working class to believe as it divides the working class into "indigenous" and "foreigners" which will prevent class unity and class consciousness, but what we say "unite with your fellow working class brethren" isnt exactly working or being listened to and this scares me.

We all know why the immigrants come here, to escape the harsh conditions of their own country, which by and large was largely created by the country which they are now immigrating to, and to get better pay for their work, but when this starts affecting badly the working class people already here what do we say to all those people who say "no more immigration"? How do we convince them to put up with what they see as a bad situation for just a bit longer until... well until a revolution i guess?

So what is our position/s on immigration and how do we allay the fears of working class people who are the one's most affected by immigration?

I fear that if we dont find a realistic answer to this immigrant question we will find ourselves discredited in the eyes of most working class people who will turn to populist far-right parties like the BNP who are giving voice to their very genuine concerns.

What can we do comrades!

[Yehuda Stern]

I don't really think we do "allay" their fears, no more than we "allay" the fears of a worker who thinks Jews are after his money or that all Arabs are terrorists. If a worker is 'afraid' of immigrants than he is not yet ready to develop a Marxist consciousness. For example, I wouldn't try to allay an Israeli workers' fears about living with Arabs or about losing his 'national identity' - if he has such fears he is still a Jewish chauvinist. Since I'm building a vanguard party, not a reformist party, I have no use for chauvinists.

As for a position on immigration - the only position revolutionaries can take on it is to oppose all restrictions on it. Revolutionaries must support full and equal rights for immigrants, as well as their right to live in whatever country they choose, without being harassed by right-wing hooligans. It was Lenin who said that all socialists in America who do not oppose all immigration quotas, restrictions etc. are ultimately jingoists.

In Israel, this means not only supporting the right of all Palestinian refugees to return to their homes, but oppose the Law of Return, which states that any Jew - and only Jews - can become an Israeli citizen at will.

I'm not very familiar with the way the subject is debated in Britain, but I can't imagine it being very different from the USA in respect for the tasks of revolutionists.

[Demogorgon]

Immigrants are the cause of all our problems in the same way as the Jewish conspiracy to rule the world is. That is to say it is a load of crap.

Blaming immigrants for this, that or the next thing is just scapegoating. When Capitalism gets itself into one of its usual messes, it will blame everyone but itself for the problem. That includes fostering racism, whether it be against Jews, Blacks or Immigrants.

The irony is that their argument makes no sense whatsoever from even a capitalist standpoint. Are they really saying that population growth harms the economy?

[apathy maybe]

Free migration, free movement, no borders no nations.

That is the leftist position. Socialists desire an end to borders, and the free movement of people. There is no other left position.

[Pogue]

Anti-immigration is basicaly fascism-lite over here. It's the main argument people used against me when I campaigned for the Labour Party/Green Party and when I get into debates with Conservatives/Fascists. People are beginning to say its 'common sense' and 'logic' as opposed to racist to oppose immigration, but I say that we let the immigrants in because we need them and because they do the job better than alot of people over here (thats logic, because the government lets them in for this reason). Personally I like seeing lots of people from a different background in this country, and I'd never support anti-immigration just because of my principles, the fact its a main right wing/fascist argument and that I like meeting people from different backgrounds. That and I think Asian girls are hot :wub:
Although I often mistake Polish people for Italian people, which is kinda embarassing...I had no idea what the polish accent sounded like! And a polish waitress whose accent I thought was Italian was working in an italian cafe... :)
Could we maybe turn this thread into arguments for allowing immigration to help combat the right wing and fascist opinions?

[Wake Up]

Well I am in favour of a stateless society, so immigration wouldn't be an issue.

Also without competition, migration wouldn't happen so much. Without a divide between rich areas and poor ones, people wouldn't feel the need to find a better life

[Dr Mindbender]

Immigration is a scapegoat, nothing more, nothing less.

The 2 rationale the reactionaries offer other than the factitous claim that they are eating the economy is that 'they are taking up space' when clearly it is beourgiose land owners who do a better task of that than anyone and they are 'diluting our culture' when is a non-sequitour when you consider that culturally, there is greater disparity on an inter-class basis than there is on an international one.

At the end of the day, the common denominator is that most of us have to get up on a monday morning to do a job for the better part, we'd rather not.

Lets not forget that when we're referring to cultural differences.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Also without competition, migration wouldn't happen so much. Without a divide between rich areas and poor ones, people wouldn't feel the need to find a better life
Precisely. And that's the argument I use when talking to anti-immigration working class people:

"Capitalism makes most of the world poor. Because of this, people from those poor countries migrate to wealthier countries to find a better life. Many of them would prefer to stay home, all other things being equal. If you're really serious about immigration, you have to handle its root causes, which are global capitalism and poverty."

[Dr Mindbender]

Precisely. And that's the argument I use when talking to anti-immigration working class people:

"Capitalism makes most of the world poor. Because of this, people from those poor countries migrate to wealthier countries to find a better life. Many of them would prefer to stay home, all other things being equal. If you're really serious about immigration, you have to handle its root causes, which are global capitalism and poverty."

i've used this argument many times when talking to my right wing relatives but it doesnt wash.

More often than not, they just shrug their shoulders as if ''so it's not our fault they are poor whats it got to do with us''.

To me the biggest task as leftists is not so much combating the anti-immigration argument as much as this callous nihilism^

[Yehuda Stern]

Well I am in favour of a stateless society, so immigration wouldn't be an issue.

That's avoiding the question. That's like leftists in Israel saying they don't support the right of return, because under socialism anyone can live where they want to. The question is what are our attitude to these questions should be when we are a small propaganda group, as all left-wing groups world-wide basically are today, and we are still living under capitalism.

[F9]

Free migration, free movement, no borders no nations.

That is the leftist position. Socialists desire an end to borders, and the free movement of people. There is no other left position.

exactly what i would write!:thumbup1:

[Sam_b]

Free migration, free movement, no borders no nations.

That is the leftist position. Socialists desire an end to borders, and the free movement of people. There is no other left position.

This ^

[spartan]

To me the biggest task as leftists is not so much combating the anti-immigration argument as much as this callous nihilism^

Exactly.

However all our arguements are ignored by these people.

And what worries me most is that their arguement is being heard and accepted by large numbers of working class people as shown by the rise of far-right populist parties like the BNP.

It seems working class people are more intrested in keeping their jobs against other workers then class solidarity:(

[Yehuda Stern]

I'm sorry but that's a completely idealistic way of describing the situation. The problem isn't that the message isn't being heard, but that most workers today are not on a level of class consciousness that allows them to be internationalist. This is reflected simply by the fact that many leftists, including on this board, attempt to appeal to the workers' chauvinist prejudices. That won't work and isn't our role, either. Our role right now is to reach that vanguard of workers who can be won over to the socialist revolution today.

[Jordi-FCB]

immigration is a tough topic, depending on the circumstances wether a nation hasn't got many jobs for the immigrants to come into the nation I think then it should be limited but with in the European nations surely that’s not a problem especially in France, England, Spain etc. Also Spartan I read sources which stated the English population was falling due to as many people departing the country

[F9]

immigration is a tough topic, depending on the circumstances wether a nation hasn't got many jobs for the immigrants to come into the nation I think then it should be limited but with in the European nations surely that’s not a problem especially in France, England, Spain etc. Also Spartan I read sources which stated the English population was falling due to as many people departing the country

men we disagree here.who will judge if there are jobs available,and why would someone would have this "power"?Everyone should get anywhere he wants find his chances there and if he dont liked it or he cant find a job move to a next place.Land and earth (whatever is called in english sorry i dont speak english too good) belongs to noone but to all the people!

Fuserg9:star:

[Jordi-FCB]

But mate thats a problem people who all came to one country which then because of mass imagration became poor because of it and millions of people lost their jobs, I think thats when it would be wrong, I love the idea of imagration but if it's seriously harming the nation what people are moveing into then it should be limited in order to make everybody happy

[F9]

But mate thats a problem people who all came to one country which then because of mass imagration became poor because of it and millions of people lost their jobs, I think thats when it would be wrong, I love the idea of imagration but if it's seriously harming the nation what people are moveing into then it should be limited in order to make everybody happy

capitalism make people lost their ,jobs not "immigrants".There is not a chance of millions of people lost their jobs it is different have a job and get removed to place another person from a person comes and asking to work and the boss choices him,he didnt make you lost your job in this way.you know what i mean?
i have come a lot of times against this position on immigration but when people finally understand that its not even in a tiny piece the fault at the immigrants.To set it to you in a different way as i think of it,there are not immigrants,there arent people from another place(country) who travel in another country to find jobs,the whole earth is one part with no borders no nations(in our minds of course) and all the people inside belong to to this earth in every corner of it.

Fuserg9:star:

[Jordi-FCB]

Good point mate really depends on what view you take on the subject but the capitalism factor you're makeing is more logical than mine

[Yehuda Stern]

Sounds like determinism to me. We don't just wait for the most advanced worked to come find us, or for class consciousness to magically take hold, we communists go to all workers.


And... I never said we do. I said we should look for the individuals who have a more advanced class consciousness.

It is not true at all that we go to all workers. Lenin's main criticism of the second International was that it built parties of all layers of working class consciousness instead of a vanguard party. Leninists look only for the most advanced elements of the class to build the party.


"The task devolving on communists is to convince the backward elements, to work among them, and not to fence themselves off from them with artificial and childishly 'Left' slogans." - Lenin

Your quote is correct when the revolutionary parties have some influence on the class. Then the advanced workers can raise the backward ones to their level. But to try to use that quote to defend the notion that isolated revolutionaries can win over backward workers to revolutionary positions is ridiculous. It's not that it's inherently wrong to try to reach backward workers, at any point - we even participate in actions by Israeli Jewish workers, which, I probably don't have to tell you, are not very class conscious. But we will not convince most of the workers until their consciousness advances somewhat. It's not a voluntary process - revolutionaries can't just come and present themselves to the workers and expect to have their positions accepted in any atmosphere.



How then, can you argue against going amongst our fellow workers to explain the working class position, to argue against the lies of the bourgeoisie, to fight to break from the parties of capital, from the union bureaucrats, and to fight for them and alongside them to organize independently?

Again, I'm not. But it's a question of chances and prospects. Given the resources and where they'll be used for the best, and that most of us can only work with individuals, we should naturally prefer the advanced workers to the backward ones.