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MaxB
22nd November 2002, 23:16
Islam: A Defective Civilization?
By Robert Locke
FrontPageMagazine.com | February 28, 2002

PRESIDENT BUSH CLEARLY HAS NIGHTMARES about the current war on terror turning into a war with Islam. On the military plane, this is unlikely so long as we do nothing stupid, but on the philosophical plane the question has already been forced in a lot of people’s minds: Is Islam a fundamentally defective civilization and are the advanced nations of the earth therefore doomed to find it a source of trouble? One cannot help noticing that if we take “civilization” in the sense established by Sam Huntingdon’s excellent The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order, it appears that they are the problem child of the planet. The alternative, of course, is that the trouble Islam appears to cause is the product of pure politics and not of religion per se. After years of politically-correct West-bashing sapping our spirit, it is probably salutary for us to assert our superiority if it is warranted, so let’s take a look.

These are the facts that confront us about the Muslim world:

1. Politics: Few Muslim nations are real democracies; in the Arab heartland, the count is zero. An exceptionally high proportion of the Muslim nations, the highest proportion of any major bloc of countries, are politically pathological, having failed to achieve internal stability that rests on anything other than brute force. They are also prone to external aggression, directly or by proxy, much of it serving no discernable national interest.

2. Economics: The Muslim world is impoverished and backward economically if one ignores oil, a windfall that it did not itself create. Worse still, even the oil states can’t produce their own oil but rely on foreign expertise and labor.

3. Society: Most Muslim societies are backward in terms of basic social indicators like levels of education and the status of women. Civil society is stunted. Corruption is rife. Alienation is widespread.

4. Culture: The culture of the Muslim world is not admired by outsiders, either in its high or popular versions. Foreign students do not flock to its universities. Its ideals do not resonate for others. No-one dreams of being like them.

At some point, the observer is entitled to wonder if Islam is behind the problems of Islamic countries. As shown by the enormous amount of conflict Muslims have with Hindu India and with black Africans in the Sudan and elsewhere, it is not just the West they can’t get along with.

One of the most unattractive things about Islam from the point of view of a non-Muslim observer is its combination of arrogance with a failure to back this chest-beating up with results. The West is often accused of arrogance, but the West and its imitators rule the world, so there is a certain logic, if no politeness, to this attitude. Islam, on the other hand, particularly in the minds of its most fanatical adherents, seems to consider itself entitled to rule the world and is alternately puzzled and enraged that this is not happening. It is a doctrine of Islam, for example, that the end of history comes when all the world is converted to Islam; I do not believe any other major religion makes this claim. This sense of superiority and destiny of domination is combined with a curiously inflamed sense of victimhood, for example the ongoing obsession with the crusades as having political relevance to the present day. And of course they ignore the fact that the Muslim world invaded and conquered Europe (at various points Spain, Sicily, the Balkans, Hungary) centuries before the West had laid a hand on them. Furthermore, in terms of their supposed grievance against Christianity, it is conveniently forgotten that Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, and Constantinople were once Christian areas, which fell to Muslim conquest. This is the mentality of the bully-wimp, of the fascist crybaby.

To be fair, one of the sad things about Islam is that many of its definite positive aspects seem to have been blunted in modernity. For example, in the Middle Ages Muslim societies were more tolerant of their religious minorities than was European society at the time, albeit with an air of contempt. They were also more scientifically advanced for a time. All serious writers on modern Islam have posed the following question: why is Islam an obvious correlate, if not a cause, of backwardness today when in the Middle Ages Islamic civilization was one of the most advanced in the world? This is frequently represented as a great puzzle, though I do not think it has to be one.

The simplest explanation is that Islam dictates by dogmatic fiat a kind of high-medieval civilization, but because it establishes it by dogma, it cannot easily advance beyond it, because dogma is fixed. Islam provided a shortcut to a level of social development higher than that of Europe’s Dark Ages, but also a dead end. This would also tend to explain the astonishing rapidity of its development in the Middle East after Mohammed’s revelation, which led to the vast Caliphate of Baghdad, ruling much of the known world, in a relatively short period of time.

The key historical difference between them and us, of course, is the Renaissance. It has even been suggested that the direction of medieval Islamic philosophy shows that a Renaissance was gestating in medieval Islam, inspired as in the West by the assimilation of ancient Greek learning, but that the religious authorities saw its disturbing potential to disturb received religious truth and strangled its development in intellectual infancy.

The counter-argument to all this is that the commonly repeated story of Islamic civilization being at one time the most advanced in the world is a gross exaggeration. The core contention of this school is that what they achieved, they achieved by militarily absorbing non-Muslim societies, like Persia, Egypt, and Byzantium, that were already advanced in their own right and whose achievements after the Muslim conquest cannot be ascribed to any Muslim genius.

The next problem is sharia, Islamic law, a detailed body of instructions on how to run society that has no counterpart in Christianity. The precepts of Christian ethics contained in the Bible are nowhere near as specific, and even they are only ethics, not actually intended to be the statutory law of the land. Even sharia’s closest equivalent in the West, the Jewish hallakha, is in the inventive hands of the Jews preposterously flexible by comparison. Sharia is a straightjacket for the society it governs, though one of a respectably high order by the standards of world history.

Some Muslims, most famously the secular nationalists who have run Turkey since Kemal Attaturk’s post-WWI revolution, have faced this fact squarely and given up on it as a basis for modern society. This was what the Shah of Iran was trying to do when so rudely interrupted by the Ayatollah Khomeini. To greater or lesser degrees, it is what other Muslim societies have done, with Syria, Malaya, Indonesia and Iraq in the vanguard. The opposite extreme is represented by Iran and Saudi Arabia, and was represented by Taliban-ruled Afghanistan.

The rigidity of sharia prevents the dynamic legal, and thus political, order of the West from emerging, but the rigidity of sharia is only its first problem. Its other problem is that by making statutory law a direct dictate from God, it allows no philosophical, as well as practical, room for a secular state. We know this principle as the separation of church and state, which confers two essential benefits:

1. It protects the state from corruption by religion, enabling politics to proceed on its own terms and solve its own problems without getting caught up in religious dogma.

2. It protects religion from corruption by the state, preserving the ability of the spiritual sphere to be true to itself without succumbing to the temptation of resort to coercion in matters of faith.

Christianity teaches that one should render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s. This enables Christians to make a clear distinction between the goods of this earth, which an intelligent atheist can discern and figure out how to obtain, and the metaphysical good of salvation, which is made known to us by revelation. The culmination of the pursuit of goods of the first kind is politics, of the second, religion. Reasoning about these two goods can go on independently because they are by nature different in kind. But when religion and politics are conflated, we run the risk of policy being made on a basis of dogma and of faith becoming an object of coercion.

This is precisely the predicament that Islam creates for nations that imbibe it deeply. To say that the earthly ruler is, as in classical Islam, the regent of God on earth is to step back in political philosophy to what were in the West the days of divine right monarchy. This is a stage prior to all the philosophical ideas that underpin democracy, individual rights, personal freedom, legitimate dissent, and the other essentials of modernity. And as Huntington points out, classical Islam rejects the idea of national sovereignty, the basic building-block of modern international order. It is only really comfortable with the ummah, or community of all believers.

There are also disturbing aspects about Islam purely as a religion, independent of any social consequences. For example, its conception of paradise with the 70 virgins, et cetera, is, to be quite blunt, repulsively crude and I do not think this is just a Western bias. Everything I have gathered in conversation with representatives of other traditions suggests to me that a serious Buddhist, Hindu or Chinaman finds this equally unattractive. The ultimate end of man should not be a teenage fantasy. It is, of course, a wonderful myth for motivating young men to become killers.

There is also the problem of the Koran. The Koran differs from the Bible fundamentally in that the Koran is not just revelation but also incarnation, i.e. the appearance of God in history. In analogy to Christianity, the Koran is not just the Bible but Jesus as well. Unfortunately there is evidence accumulating from modern Koranic scholarship that the Koran may not be what it claims to be.

For a start, its claim to have appeared all at once in its complete form seems to be false, as shown by ancient versions of it that have been discovered. It has also been shown, based on the standard tools of textual analysis, that much of the pre-Islamic literature that was supposed to prefigure it was in fact written later and falsely dated. These issues are discussed at length in A href="http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99jan/koran.htm">this article in The Atlantic. Basically, the same higher criticism that did such damage to Christian faith is slowly starting to work on the Koran. Whether this is a good thing if it weakens fanaticism, or a bad one if it lets loose the same forces of nihilism that have ravaged the culture of the West, remains to be seen.

The principal case that Islam is not a defective civilization is that there exist Muslim nations that have not become societies pathological in one way or another. Logically, this cannot include nominally Muslim nations like Turkey that have rejected Islam as a basis for social order. Take Morocco, for example, not a place of great political trouble by Third-World standards, though the usual suspects are certainly trying. Some experts on Islam will tell you that Morocco exhibits the closest thing found on earth today to traditional Islam, it being the case that the nominally purer societies like Saudi Arabia in fact practice a puritanical variant, the now-notorious Wahabbism, that derives from innovations of the 18th century. Morocco had a relatively unbroken social continuity despite colonization and decolonization, and has since had a traditionalist but unfanatical monarchy practicing benevolent authoritarianism. It cooperates with the United States.

The example of Iraq, a highly secularized Muslim country that exhibits extreme political pathology, makes clear that secularism is no guarantee of reasonableness for Muslim societies. The counter-argument to this, in turn, is that Iraq is still a society formed by Islam, if not currently practicing it with great enthusiasm, and it is due to Islam that it failed to develop into a democracy or some other reasonable form of government.

It is probably true that human beings can, if they put their minds to it, put a politically reasonable gloss on any religion. But this is only true as a matter of bare principle; what they will actually tend to do when given a certain religious starting point is another matter entirely. And on these grounds it seems fair to conclude, simply as an empirical matter, that Islam has a disturbing tendency not to measure up to the standards of modern civilization. Whether an Islamic Reformation analogous to the Christian one can set this problem aright is a matter of speculation, but there is every reason for us to wish for one.

Robert Locke resides in New York City. Others of his articles may be found on vdare.com and robertlocke.com.

Goldfinger
22nd November 2002, 23:43
:P

new democracy
23rd November 2002, 00:07
not only that's pretty racist, i have no clue what does it have to do with socialism or capitalism.

Goldfinger
23rd November 2002, 01:26
He's banned from the other forums.

new democracy
23rd November 2002, 01:30
i know, but i really don't understand what does it have to do with socialism or capitalism. i don't know why did he posted this article in the current wave of copy and paste propaganda.

suffianr
23rd November 2002, 04:41
Tsk, tsk. At it again, are we, MaxB?

Do you really think they did any bloody research for that article you posted?

There is also the problem of the Koran. The Koran differs from the Bible fundamentally in that the Koran is not just revelation but also incarnation, i.e. the appearance of God in history. In analogy to Christianity, the Koran is not just the Bible but Jesus as well. Unfortunately there is evidence accumulating from modern Koranic scholarship that the Koran may not be what it claims to be.

The entire passage above makes absolutely no sense at all. The Qur'an and the Bible are two seperate entities, as distinct as the Rig Veda is to Matthew, Genesis, or the New Testament.

The Qur'an cannot be equated with the Bible as to it's sense of purpose; how can you say, even in analogy, that the Qur'an is an extension of Muhammad, it is not. They are two separate entities. Whilst my understanding of Christianity is limited to what I've read in the Bible, and what I understand from my Christian friends, I can say that the logic and reasoning of this comparative analysis is false. It just does not make any sense at all.

The Shari'a is part of the Islamic way of life. Just because Christianity does not apparently offer a similar comprehensive set of laws, or Rule of Law, that Christianity needs secularism to function, does not mean that the Shari'a is invalid.

Here, viewed objectively, Islam offered a complete appraoch to life; social welfare, an economic system, administrative ethics, a Rule of Law. Whilst Christianity may not have similar dictates, does this mean it is wrong because it is different?

Apart from those obvious mistakes, the patchy article looks like it could have been strung together by an ten year-old. Not to say that children aren't smart, but may, just maybe, even a child might be aware of the fact that Iraq's Baathist ruling party is not a Islamic party.

And that Islam did not attempt to strangle the Rennaissance, or any such movements of it's own during the Middle Ages. Islam profited from the freedom of exchange, the cultural benefits of Rennaissance; trade, art, literature & philosophy and science.

In short, the article you posted was crap. Try harder next time, mate. You're going to need to be convincing if you are to influence or question the thoughts of others.

abstractmentality
23rd November 2002, 05:06
i read the other article posted by MaxB, the unholy...marxism and islamism, but i could only get through number 4 of this article. it is in my opinion, that this author is a complete idiot. i noticed the remark about many Islamic countries not being democracies, but i must say that you, MaxB, still have not replied to my post in the America is not a democracy thread. have you no real arguement of your own?
the oppression of woman in some Islamic countries is not because of Islam. i was just present in a panel of nothing but Muslim women, one of which grew up in Saudi Arabia. all of them did not see how Islam is discrimatory towards women. in fact, all of them thought of Islam as something that lets women be thought of more as intellectuals than as sex objects. just because in some countries woman are oppressed, doesnt bring down all of Islam. They read passages from The Qur'an that speaks of women and education, and the need for education to be equal in both male and female. obviously this guy, and you (for pasting it here) have no idea what you are talking about. perhaps next time you should learn about what you are pasting.

(Edited by abstractmentality at 9:08 pm on Nov. 22, 2002)

Lardlad95
23rd November 2002, 15:10
isn't there someway to get rid of this troll?

Guest
23rd November 2002, 15:29
You are obviously an idiot and know nothing about Islam. I live in America and have taken many classes about Islam at a graduate level, nothing about what you said is true. The problem behind Islam is the United States. America supports military aid to Israel since 1948 and this is what is causing all the problems in Islam. The Israelis have killed many Palestinian civilians daily. The Israelis took these people's land and now they are killing them and that is what this whole uproar in Islam is about. But Americans are so ignorant and do not consider the killings of these innocent people in refugee camps terrorism. Osama Bin laden said as long as Palestinans do not feel safe in their homeland neither will Americans feel safe in the United States. So if the United States would mind its own business for a change and stop giving aid to kill innocent people maybe you would have a different view point on Islam. That is the whole problem with Islam. I in no way condone suicide bombers but these people are living bad lives with so many restriction upon them they have no choice. You never hear about Israeli's killing Palestinan children walking back to their refugee camps from school daily but you always hear about the suicide bombers. The media is what is giving you this backward view on Islam. So maybe you should research what you are taking about and then publicly post something defaming the second largest religon in the world.

Politix
23rd November 2002, 15:30
I think you people need to stop being so offensive to everything. And yo Apocalypse When take that shit outta ur sig. Its really fukin stupid.

redstar2000
23rd November 2002, 16:19
The MaxB/Locke post oversimplifies a VASTLY more complicated subject.

Islam IS, at least for the most part, hostile to modern, secular thought. So IS Christianity or any other religion. A fundamentalist Christian, given the opportunity, will behave no differently than a fundamentalist Muslim, a fundamentalist Jew, or whatever. The WHOLE POINT of religion is to IMPOSE values on people...which values is just a matter of historical circumstances.

From the standpoint of the international capitalist class, the "problem" with Islam is not its "primitive values"; it's the fact that fundamentalist Muslims RESIST the domination of their countries by international capitalists. If Bin Laden et.al. would just take their payoff and shut up--like the royal family of "Saudi" Arabia--hey, there'd be NO PROBLEM.

People like Locke & MaxB CAN'T admit this, so they cover up with a lot of talk about "Islamic civilization", etc. In fact, they have NO PROBLEM with equally primitive Jewish fundamentalists in occupied Palestine...because THOSE people are obedient to the interests of international capital. If Jewish fundamentalists should ever decide that the U.S. is standing in the way of a greater Israeli empire...watch for a bunch of articles about "primitive" Judaism that has become another "problem child".

Everyone knows that "problem children" are children who WON'T OBEY the grown-ups. SHAME on them; they will have to be SPANKED!

To the oppressor, the oppressed are always children--who have to be punished when they've been naughty. Mr. Locke's article, inspite of making some useful points, is in this same tradition. It is supposed to make us westerners feel more comfortable about bombing the shit out of defenseless countries.

Didn't work for me.

new democracy
23rd November 2002, 16:22
great post redstar.

Guest
23rd November 2002, 19:43
I agree mostly with redstar.

I don't mind islam bashing, just as I don't mind christian bashing. But I hold a special place in my heart for jew bashing because we treat jews like they're a race, "I'm half jewish!" Ok I'm half christian then.

Either way, I'm more supportive of islam because it seems like the lesser of the evils, and the majority of it is anti-american.

suffianr
24th November 2002, 04:40
Guest,

Hey, here we go again. Hang on to your butts, please...

Firstly, thank you for falling for into the global media HATE-ISLAM-BECAUSE-WE-THINK-THEY-FUCKING-BOMBED-NEW-YORK propaganda campaign hyperbole.

"Either way, I'm more supportive of islam because it seems like the lesser of the evils, and the majority of it is anti-american."

To say something like that is to say something like "hey, during the early 1930's, a majority of Shinto-Buddhism was anti-Chinese. Fuck it, let's bomb Manchuria now!"

No, no, no....No.

If a majority of any religion was anti-?? (insert racial/ethnic group here), I would be very fucking worried. I don't reckon a majority of Muslims hate America, just as I don't reckon a majority of Israelis hate Palestinians, it's just false perception. I don't think a majority of Tamils hate the Singhalese, or a majority of aborigines hate Australians, or a majority of Sioux hate Texans or whatever, it's just false perception. There is conflict, but does this reflect the majority always? I don't think so, really...

I'm not trying to say that Islam, or any other religion for that matter, is immune to extremist persuasion. It is not.
But just look around you, a majority of Muslims today resent America because now they cannot do anything or go anywhere without feeling threatened, like a bunch of Feds are trailing them all the way to the market; this little piggy is with Al-Qaeda, isn't he?

Travel bans, visa restrictions, loss of employment opportunities, embargoes and trade losses, the societal stigma of wearing a skull cap or a turban (even the innocent Sikhs get beaten up for being mistaken for being Muslim!), right now, as an Asian, I can tell you: This is Shit! It's not Funny! I'm not a Fucking Terrorist, Thank You!

Soon, all Asians are going to be lumped as either Muslims, or Muslim sympathizers, mark my words. And we are going to end up with the short end of the straw yet again! If in doubt, blame Third World countries, don't worry, they're poor! And coloured, too!

Is this going to end up as a persecution of religious extremists, or is your generation going to fall for the "White Man's Burden" yet again, just like your forefathers did before you?

What I'm asking is, how soon before anti-Islam becomes anti-Asian? (given that the majority of muslims in the world are obviously non-white...I'm not implying any racist tendencies, it's a known fact...)

Samuel Huntington, you fucking twat, thank you very much...

Guest
24th November 2002, 19:01
No matter how PC you may want to be, if there was a mass survey of all the muslims you'd find most of them don't like amerika.

However the jews hating palestinian thing is tricky. I find that jews tend to be against, (for the most part) whatever their country is doing at the time. I don't imagine the majority of jews in israel hate palestinians, but a pro-palestinian country that might have jews in it, egypt lets say, the majority of jews there would hate palestinians. And in amerika its torn like amerika is with the right and left nonsense even though they both believe practically the same thing.

I don't say ALL muslims hate amerika, but I really get tired of the TV shows in amerika that talk about how most muslims don't hate amerika, who of course are they asking? Amerikan muslims who either fear backlash of 9/11 or are just too liberal. The reason these muslims are in amerika is because amerika is much more liberal than their home country probably. Lots of muslims came to amerika from iran once the shah fell out of power because they were liberals.

I'm not buying into the whole muslim=bad thing, because everything is now, extremely tiny minority of islam=bad. While I don't think any muslims are 'bad' (except of course if they're anarchists ;) ) I think the majority of muslims are anti-U.S.

Non-Sectarian Bastard!
24th November 2002, 21:06
Oh my god.

This is pure racism. You talk about the arabic country's they are pretty rich dont u think. Guess who made them rich by buying oil and installing puppetregime. The saudi government bought in the gulfwar 2billion dollar in weapons of america and payed them 2billion to come to beat the iraqi's. Have u ever considered urself as a racist.??

I dont even wanna talk to you cuz of ur racism. Come back when you have the real facts and not the American propaganda bullshit.

Guest
25th November 2002, 01:51
Congratulations CCCP! You've not only managed to make a post I find difficult to read but also bring irrelevant facts into it!

I am racist because I think the majority of muslims are anti-U.S, gee, how racist of me.

I must be also extremely prejeduced to say the majority of anarchists are anti-U.S too *rolls eyes*

Grow the fuck up and stop trying to be against EVERYTHING you hear, its idiot non-realists like you that make the communist movement seem like a joke, atleast suffinar made actual sense.

canikickit
25th November 2002, 02:05
I'd imagine CCCP is replying to the article, not your rantings, TS.

Guest
25th November 2002, 02:18
If that were true!!...

I'd still be angry! I'm an angry type of person.

Lardlad95
25th November 2002, 12:17
Quote: from Guest on 1:51 am on Nov. 25, 2002
Congratulations CCCP! You've not only managed to make a post I find difficult to read but also bring irrelevant facts into it!

I am racist because I think the majority of muslims are anti-U.S, gee, how racist of me.

I must be also extremely prejeduced to say the majority of anarchists are anti-U.S too *rolls eyes*

Grow the fuck up and stop trying to be against EVERYTHING you hear, its idiot non-realists like you that make the communist movement seem like a joke, atleast suffinar made actual sense.


The Majority of Muslims live in teh Middle East

THe Majorityof the Middle East Resents the US

The Majority of Muslims resent the US...

so yes you are correct in this logic

However just to make it clear to everyone.

1. That Doesn't Mean islam is anti-Us

2. That doesn't mena all muslims are anti-Us

3. Their hatred has more to do with cultural and regional resentment

suffianr
25th November 2002, 16:24
Yes, inferences drawn from simple logic usually suck.

Non-Sectarian Bastard!
26th November 2002, 08:10
The moslims that hate America are most times fundamentalists that want to bring the life of the 5th century back. Its very foolish to think that there isnt one religion that hasnt fundamentalists. In Christianity you have the KKK for instance and in the Jewism you got orthodox-jews. So the next time some one dies cuz of an attack of christian racists i will write here My Kampf against christians like you did against islam...not. So shut up and dont blame islam cuz of few fundamentalists.

And wich facts arent real. This letter is to MaxB and to that other facist.

Stormin Norman
26th November 2002, 14:36
Yes it is true that many forms of Islam remain defective. Examples of where Islam has proven to have failed as a political theory include Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and countless others. It does seem as if there are many sects within that religion who propose a version of Islam that contradicts the important idea of a secular state. These fanatics are where we face our greatest danger, and represent the group whose power we need to diminish, in exchange for the more moderate peaceful proponents of Islam.

Not all Muslims are bad, just a very large percentage who have had their brains washed by the indoctorination of fanaticism within their society. Democracy, especially with an strong commitment of separation of church and state should be exported to that region of the world. Most of these states might not be ready for that kind of responsibility. We have demanded free and fair elections in Pakistan, but that may have backfired. The recently held election their has resulted in the fundamentalists gaining seats in the parliament. Democracy is on shaking groud in those Islamic coutries that chose to employ it. Nothing guarantees its success. However, if we wish to fight the cultural war in that part of the world it remains our best weapon with which to fight it.

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 2:39 am on Nov. 27, 2002)

suffianr
26th November 2002, 18:01
Yes it is true that many forms of Islam remain defective.

Yes, and which ones are you referring to? Stop the generalisations, mate.

Islam was never meant to be a political theory, it is a religion. A religion that encompasses administrative, not merely political, structures, economics, a social welfare system, medicine, law, education and just like you always like to say, "others".

And what about Brunei?

A monarchy, yet you get broad-based free education policies, you don't pay a lot of tax, there's low inflation, and essentially, the State provides more to the people than most known "democracies" in South East Asia.

Free and fair elections...Now, that's a term that has been frequently abused over here in the Third World...

Don't talk about free or fair elections until you actually get to cover one for a newspaper or magazine, then, come back and tell me about it. Not until you get to see stuff happening in front of your eyes, the real groundwork, until then, I don't buy you or anyone else's I-read-Newsweek-in-the-john-so-what I-say-counts bullshit.

I've done that, covered general election campaigns in '99 and goverment re-shuffling & by-elections in '2000, and it really wasn't one of my most cherished experiences in life...An eye-opener, but not something you want to brag to chicks about... ;)

Guest
27th November 2002, 01:39
Mein Kampf was written by a pagan and I really don't have any problem bashing christians too, like I said I hate all religon, but am more sympathetic to islam because it is anti-amerikan.

Really I'd like you to goto the nearest muslim in egypt (hey, if these anti-amerikans are such a minority you should have no problem) and say, "I'm so glad you don't hate amerika" and give him a little flag or something, and then see if a crowd doesn't gather to stomp you to the ground.

RedCeltic
27th November 2002, 02:03
Quote: from Guest on 7:39 pm on Nov. 26, 2002
Mein Kampf was written by a pagan and I really don't have any problem bashing christians too, like I said I hate all religon, but am more sympathetic to islam because it is anti-amerikan.

Really I'd like you to goto the nearest muslim in egypt (hey, if these anti-amerikans are such a minority you should have no problem) and say, "I'm so glad you don't hate amerika" and give him a little flag or something, and then see if a crowd doesn't gather to stomp you to the ground.

Hitler was not a pagan. Nazi Paganism is blown way out of proportion, they didn't in fact practice any real pagan religion.

In addition, Hitler said many times that he is a devoted Christian. Where did Hitler get the Swastika than you ask? True, it was used in Western European Pagan traditions, but guess who bult the Christian cathedrals?

And guess who went to curch every sunday like good little boy?

Hitler. There was a Swastika ingraved on the wall across the pew from him when he went to church.

Lardlad95
27th November 2002, 03:12
Quote: from RedCeltic on 2:03 am on Nov. 27, 2002

Quote: from Guest on 7:39 pm on Nov. 26, 2002
Mein Kampf was written by a pagan and I really don't have any problem bashing christians too, like I said I hate all religon, but am more sympathetic to islam because it is anti-amerikan.

Really I'd like you to goto the nearest muslim in egypt (hey, if these anti-amerikans are such a minority you should have no problem) and say, "I'm so glad you don't hate amerika" and give him a little flag or something, and then see if a crowd doesn't gather to stomp you to the ground.

Hitler was not a pagan. Nazi Paganism is blown way out of proportion, they didn't in fact practice any real pagan religion.

In addition, Hitler said many times that he is a devoted Christian. Where did Hitler get the Swastika than you ask? True, it was used in Western European Pagan traditions, but guess who bult the Christian cathedrals?

And guess who went to curch every sunday like good little boy?

Hitler. There was a Swastika ingraved on the wall across the pew from him when he went to church.



Actually I heard teh Swastika was a Rune and infact there was a backwards one in Hinduism for some reaosn...not sure though.

Stormin Norman
27th November 2002, 13:52
What are your thoughts about the anti-semetic 41 part series extolling the discredited Nazi zionist conspiracy theory that recently ran in Egypt?

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 3:32 am on Nov. 28, 2002)

Moskitto
27th November 2002, 21:47
Hitler hated christianity for the following reasons,

1. Jesus was a Jew
2. The Old Testament is the story of the Jewish people
3. He believed Germany was God

The only thing he did with the church was he made an agreement with the catholic church that they'd leave each other alone, but he broke it, he also demanded the protestant church to change it's name to the "Reich Church" and preach nazi propaganda.

redstar2000
28th November 2002, 22:30
"I don't buy you or anyone else's I-read-Newsweek-in-the-john-so-what-I-say-counts bullshit."--suffianr

I agree completely. The capitalist media is hardly trustworthy in reporting the third world...but the AMERICAN media is the absolute pits; about 1 gram of accuracy per several hundred kilograms of stereotypes, rumors, gossip, and State Department handouts.

Speaking personally, I read the BBC site and FOLLOW THE LINKS.

Moskitto
28th November 2002, 22:39
THe Swastika is a Hindu symbol of peace, it's also used in Baltic, Scandinavian, Greek and Native American societies

Goldfinger
29th November 2002, 15:44
Don't forget nazism

Lefty
30th November 2002, 07:02
gah, fuck you. That was rascist. I think that alone is grounds to ban him.

Guest
30th November 2002, 20:10
What is racist?

cry of the harvester
1st December 2002, 00:40
anti-che,

the difference between you and me is this:

-im suspect and you are not
-in your world one plus one equals two
in my world nothing is equal and it sure does not add up.

-you seek answers from one source as if were that easy?

-i look for truth as it were a needle in a haystack.

ah, i dont mean to have such a negative attitude, its not you i am at odds with, its the world. i've been researching all day long and find myself falling into depression due to the lack of encouragement.

most religions or faiths cannot believe in Jesus otherwise it could void out this whole "the world is our birthrite thing" and your perception of Islam proves that they are doing of good job. You speak one truth, they are not to be feared. Yet beware the day of Apostasy.

tommyt1alacrana
2nd December 2002, 03:16
"In the immense conflicts smoldering between East and West, Communism or Democracy, Islam occupies a strategic position. For Islam is neither East nor West but partakes of both. It lies between Europe and Asia in one dimension, between Europe and Africa in another.

It would be an error for the Western world to regard Islam as an automatic barrier to Communism. For although its faith and that of the West stem from common ground, there are many ancient social differences to be harmonized. And in the present crisis of the Moslem spirit, Communism may yet offer Moslems the kind of absolute political dogma which democracy cannot provide. In this situation, the work of Islamic missions is of added importance. There is no question that the direction in which Islam turns will profoundly affect the future of the world. The direction will depend in the last analysis on how successfully Islam can reeconcile its faith with the mutations of time and history.

-Taken from "The World of Islam"

suffianr
2nd December 2002, 05:51
"In the immense conflicts smoldering between East and West, Communism or Democracy, Islam occupies a strategic position. For Islam is neither East nor West but partakes of both. It lies between Europe and Asia in one dimension, between Europe and Africa in another.

It would be an error for the Western world to regard Islam as an automatic barrier to Communism. For although its faith and that of the West stem from common ground, there are many ancient social differences to be harmonized. And in the present crisis of the Moslem spirit, Communism may yet offer Moslems the kind of absolute political dogma which democracy cannot provide. In this situation, the work of Islamic missions is of added importance. There is no question that the direction in which Islam turns will profoundly affect the future of the world. The direction will depend in the last analysis on how successfully Islam can reeconcile its faith with the mutations of time and history.

-Taken from "The World of Islam"

Which, in plain simple English, means...? ;)