Questions from an American Farmer

[ThomasJeffersonIV]

I am an American Farmer, and I want to know that if you communists plan to take over or whatever the hell, I want to know some things, and was told this is a good place to ask.

1. What happens to me as a farmer?

2. Will my land, be mine, or when communism comes, if it does, will my land become everyone's, even though I paid for it?

3. I don't think Communism will work, because mankind is naturally power-hungry, so how will it get through that?

4. How come communism is destined to work? Like Communism, hasn't been around that long compared to Monarchy, or Republic.

5. How do you know whats worth what? Like how much would a acre of my crops be to something else? I was told that a community would vote it, but how in the hell do you expect people to vote over every little item?

I am sure I'll have more, but these are the ones I can think of atm.

[Dros]

1. What happens to me as a farmer?

In what sense?


2. Will my land, be mine, or when communism comes, if it does, will my land become everyone's, even though I paid for it?

Land will be owned collectively. You'll own your land and all of the land.


3. I don't think Communism will work, because mankind is naturally power-hungry, so how will it get through that?

On what basis do you make the claim that a.) humanity is power hungry and b.) that this prevents Communist development.


4. How come communism is destined to work? Like Communism, hasn't been around that long compared to Monarchy, or Republic.

Who said anything about "destiny"?


5. How do you know whats worth what? Like how much would a acre of my crops be to something else? I was told that a community would vote it, but how in the hell do you expect people to vote over every little item?

There wouldn't be a commodity method of exchange. That means the concept of value in the sense that you're talking about will be meaningless.

EDIT: This needs to be moved to OI where you will likely be spending the remainder of your time here.

[ThomasJeffersonIV]

In what sense?



Land will be owned collectively. You'll own your land and all of the land.



On what basis do you make the claim that a.) humanity is power hungry and b.) that this prevents Communist development.



Who said anything about "destiny"?



There wouldn't be a commodity method of exchange. That means the concept of value in the sense that you're talking about will be meaningless.

EDIT: This needs to be moved to OI where you will likely be spending the remainder of your time here.

in what sense? I mean how the hell will it change my life.

So, basically everyone owns everything?

Humanity is power-hungry or no one would be a president or dictator. Communism doesn't want leaders, so how would you stop people from becoming a leader?

Well, you guys say it will work, thats destiny.

Explain to me how it will work please.

OI?

[Bright Banana Beard]

1. What happens to me as a farmer? You will still be a farmer if you like to stay being a farmer.


2. Will my land, be mine, or when communism comes, if it does, will my land become everyone's, even though I paid for it? You still get to keep the house and still work on farming. But the volunteer will work on your farm whether u like it not, but u have the right to self-defense your house and it land use..


3. I don't think Communism will work, because mankind is naturally power-hungry, so how will it get through that? The point is to change the material condition.


4. How come communism is destined to work? Like Communism, hasn't been around that long compared to Monarchy, o Republic. I dont think we there yet, it only a theory for now. It supposed to happen in USA, Great Britain, and France, but instead it happened in Russia and China, both of them backward country.


5. How do you know whats worth what? Like how much would a acre of my crops be to something else? I was told that a community would vote it, but how in the hell do you expect people to vote over every little item? I let that question to my other comrade who may disagree with me. That why we do not have strong position in the world, we allow ourselves to get heavily criticized. In addition to this, American are being taught to hate communism regardless of their evidence.

[trivas7]

My two-cents worth:

1. Welcome, comrade! Don't you think we'll still need to eat after the revolution?

2. If you produce for society you need not fear for your land.

3. Give your species a chance, can't we do better than being power hungry? Does man have to be a wolf to man?

4. It's not destined to work, I'm not a determinist. But our choice at this stage of the game is now socilaism or barbarism. Would you really prefer Mad Max's world?

5. What's a human life worth? Do you value people or things?

[OI OI OI]

1. What happens to me as a farmer?

You either voluntarily decide to join a collective or you keep your plot of land and the workers state provides you with cheap machinery, fertilizers , loans at low

interest etc. But you will soon see that you will make a better living in a collective farm as their would be division of labour.
2. Will my land, be mine, or when

communism comes, if it does, will my land become everyone's, even though I paid for it?

Communism does not come after capitalism. Communism is a stateless

classless society . Socialism preceeds communism and you will decide how you will use your land. Of course if you decide to keep it , you cannot hire labourers to

work for you as this is wage-slavery and it is banned under socialism! (We cannot make someone work in order to produce for example 20$ an hour worth of goods

and we give him only 10$ and keep the rest)


3. I don't think Communism will work, because mankind is naturally power-hungry, so how will it get through that? Well human nature does not exist.

Conciousness depends on the material conditions. "human nature"(as you call it) , is power hungry and selfish in a capitalist society where everyone

strives to take advantage of someone else in order to survive. Where people exploit other people etc. So in a period of my life your death (capitalism) people are

power hungry and greedy. But people were not always like that. Only under capitalism and other systems of exploitation. So it is not natural it is just how the material

conditions shape us to be. So under socialism this conciousness which you call "natural" will slowly fade until it is non-existent.
4. How come communism is destined to work? Like Communism, hasn't been around that long compared to Monarchy, or Republic.

Communism has never existed(see definition of communism above). What existed were deformed workers states due to objective conditions(sorry I am not that clear

but you should read some definitions on your own ) . Communism is destined to exist due to the fact that capitalism cannot move human kind forward any more. You

see everywhere hunger, misery, exploitation, wars , devastation etc.


5. How do you know whats worth what? Like how much would a acre of my crops be to something else? I was told that a community would vote it, but how in the hell do you expect people to vote over every little item?

Under socialism money exists! In communism which is a higher form of society as I explained, things dont need a price, because communism is a society of

abundance. So from each according to his faculties to each according to his needs. So you get what you need without asking for a price. Of course that will be in the

future when whole generations would be raised under socialism so greediness etc will have been wiped out. And don't forget. Socialism has the following attributes 1) The means of production belong to the workers 2) Officials are racallable and elected and their duties rotatable

[ThomasJeffersonIV]

My two-cents worth:

1. Welcome, comrade! Don't you think we'll still need to eat after the revolution?

2. If you produce for society you need not fear for your land.

3. Give your species a chance, can't we do better than being power hungry? Does man have to be a wolf to man?

4. It's not destined to work, I'm not a determinist. But our choice at this stage of the game is now socilaism or barbarism. Would you really prefer Mad Max's world?

5. What's a human life worth? Do you value people or things?

But its my land, if I paid for it, its mine, and if this comes and they say "oh sorry, you paid for it, but now, its everyone's" thats stealing.

I am not a communist, btw lol.

I doubt it, we are humans.

I value power? I value my farm, and family.

[OI OI OI]

read my post thomas Jefferson as it will answer your questions very well ^^^^^^^

[Dros]

in what sense? I mean how the hell will it change my life.

That depends largely on the nature of your life. You'll be able to do what you want to do. If you wish to be a farmer, then you will be a farmer! You won't "own" your land directly but you can farm and have a house and a family. If you currently have employees, that would change. It's really impossible for me to answer this question without knowing more about what your life is like now.


So, basically everyone owns everything?

That's the best way of thinking about it.


Humanity is power-hungry or no one would be a president or dictator.

Errr... what?

I don't think that political power emerges from the spontaneous desire of certain individuals. The need for political order stems from irreconcilable class antagonisms that develop when the means of production become exclusively owned by a definite segment of society. When this happens, society becomes divided into classes. The state is needed to reconcile those antagonisms and to enforce the rule of the ruling class.


Communism doesn't want leaders, so how would you stop people from becoming a leader?

The material basis for "leadership" (class struggle and private ownership of the means of production) would be destroyed, at least in the sense of the word "leaders" as you are using it.


Well, you guys say it will work, thats destiny.

Not really. We're not saying that Communism is the promised land that we will inevitably lead you to. We're saying that today, in the here and now, the vast majority of people on this planet are brutally exploited by a parasitic class and that the only solution to this problem, the only way to emancipate all of humanity out of these oppressive relations is the abolition of classes, the abolition of all production relations on which those classes rest, the abolition of all social relations built on those class relations, and the elimination of all ideology built on those social relations.


OI?

Opposing Ideologies.


But its my land, if I paid for it, its mine, and if this comes and they say "oh sorry, you paid for it, but now, its everyone's" thats stealing.

I really don't care if you think it's stealing. Private ownership of the means of production is the central problem in our society. It is the one thing that grounds all of the oppressive relations, all of the atrocities currently occurring in the world. You are using that land to systematically rob everyone who works for you and also all of those people who eat what you grow through the extraction of surplus value.

[trivas7]

But its my land, if I paid for it, its mine, and if this comes and they say "oh sorry, you paid for it, but now, its everyone's" thats stealing.

I didn't say anyone was going to take it. What are you afraid of?


I value power? I value my farm, and family.

And why wouldn't Communists do likewise?

[Dros]

I didn't say anyone was going to take it. What are you afraid of?

What are you talking about? Collectivization? Collective ownership?

[ThomasJeffersonIV]

I didn't say anyone was going to take it. What are you afraid of?

And why wouldn't Communists do likewise?

I am afraid that if communism tries to take over, they will tell me its not my farm anymore, that I can't fire people if they are lazy.

Power? Cause if I have been told right, their is no power in the perfect communist world, their is just people.

[Bright Banana Beard]

I am afraid that if communism tries to take over, they will tell me its not my farm anymore, that I can't fire people if they are lazy.

Power? Cause if I have been told right, their is no power in the perfect communist world, their is just people.
Why would the lazy work there if he have all the material condition and able to pursuit his happiness?

Pursuit happiness is allowed as long it does not violate other's right.

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

1. You still farm, though you wouldn't have to worry about going bust like most american farmers are these days. You could also choose to do something else you may like, such as playing an instrument, building a car etc.

2. It depends, you'll be allowed to have you land and work it as you see fit. But you won't be able to employ people to help harvest, since no one would want to, as wage employment would have been abolished. Also any land you aren't using for prolonged periods of time (like say 1 year or more) will be redistributed if its needed. I mean, you don't have a right to sit on productive land and just waste it. even Jefferson wouldn't condone that.

3. Humans are a lot of things, it really depends on environment and how we distribute power in society. Capitalism tells us to fight for our slice and so we fight. Yet even under capitalism we show a remarkable capacity for help and altruism.

4. It's not destined. But we believe that social control of the means of production is more humane and ultimately a better deal for everyone.

5. Things are produced according to need and demand via democratic planning and some form of computerized allocation system. With current production technology we can already provide on demand production with products ranging from cars to books. Its not an issue. As a farmer you should be glad, as capitalism does not help farmers. If farmers have a strong harvest then they flood the market and collapse prices. Talk about rewarding success!

[trivas7]

What are you talking about? Collectivization? Collective ownership?
Collective ownership doesn't mean people will be forced off their personal property, only that they will produce for society. We've got to think beyong past practices, agricultural collectivization just would never fly in the USA. I suspect that the huge agribusinesses would be taken over by the state but that the little guy would be left alone.

[gla22]

The workers on your farm will have equal ownership as you do. if you decide to do it alone you can own your land individually, but as soon as you have employees the land is collectivized. You and your workers decide the outcomes democratically ect. The value of your produce is determined by what economic system is in place. Market or non-market it depends. You will continue being a farmer and i expect you will experience a great degree of success because you actually produce something unlike currency traders, stockbrokers ect. They will be hurt but the real producers and contributers to society will suceed.

[Q]

I was going to post a reply, but user OI OI OI put it more clearly then I could. Good going on that OI3! And welcome to both OI3 and ThomasJefferson to the forums btw :)

[#FF0000]

I won't answer the last question since that isn't the area of my expertise.

So here we go.




1. What happens to me as a farmer?

You stay as a farmer like people said. You just won't go poor and homeless if there's a bad harvest or if something goes wrong.



2. Will my land, be mine, or when communism comes, if it does, will my land become everyone's, even though I paid for it?

No. What was your land will be collectively owned, and the community will work on it and have a hand in planning. You expressed concern over slackers. How they'll be dealt with depends. They might just not get their full share of "stuff".



3. I don't think Communism will work, because mankind is naturally power-hungry, so how will it get through that?

Oh, here's a complicated question. I'll try to avoid using too much jargon here, (Like OI OI OI did in his otherwise great post)

I don't necessarily believe that humanity is power hungry. Even back in the early days of humanity, before we discovered farming, and humans survived by hunting and gathering, not every society or tribe had an "alpha-male". Some, of course, did. However, many others were entirely equal, with no "chief".

The point is that behavior is largely cultural and learned. The instinct to survive is definitely in man's nature. However, how we go about ensuring our survival depends on our upbringing and the conditions we grew up in. For example, if there was a natural disaster and people needed supplies, some people would find other people, and cooperate with them. Others might grab a gun and try to go it alone. This is why, say, North Americans and Europeans have different world-views: they come from different cultures and backgrounds.

There are still power-hungry people, though. However, they aren't necessarily a problem. There are ways of keeping tyrants from taking power, such as the division of power. For example, In the United States, the Founding Fathers were afraid of such power-hungry people eventually taking power. To make sure that a tyrant couldn't take over, they designed the government so the power was divided thus we have the Legislative, Executive, and Judicial branch.





4. How come communism is destined to work? Like Communism, hasn't been around that long compared to Monarchy, or Republic.

I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about here. I think you're talking about the idea that some leftists have that communism is inevitable. That conclusion that communism will definitely be put into place after capitalism comes from various theories of Marx and his analysis of history. I'll give you a basic overview.

Throughout all of recorded history, there have been haves and have-nots. Rich and poor. Kings and peasants. This is true in every society, and in every such society, the have-nots have risen up and taken over through revolution. We saw this in the American revolution, and the French Revolution, with aristocrats and nobility being overthrown by the middle class merchants.

In capitalist society, Marx says, there are two classes. Proletarians (Farmers, workers, students, teachers. Everyone who doesn't own a company, basically) and the Bourgeoisie (those who own significant portions of land, and run the industry). According to Marx's analysis of history, the proletariat is inevitably going to rise up and overthrow the bourgeoisie, and will establish communism.

I should also mention that not everyone agrees that communism is an inevitability.

I hope I answered your questions sufficiently. Don't hesitate to send me a private message or contact me over AIM (screen name is in my profile).

[Mala Tha Testa]

I am an American Farmer, and I want to know that if you communists plan to take over or whatever the hell, I want to know some things, and was told this is a good place to ask.

1. What happens to me as a farmer?

2. Will my land, be mine, or when communism comes, if it does, will my land become everyone's, even though I paid for it?

3. I don't think Communism will work, because mankind is naturally power-hungry, so how will it get through that?

4. How come communism is destined to work? Like Communism, hasn't been around that long compared to Monarchy, or Republic.

5. How do you know whats worth what? Like how much would a acre of my crops be to something else? I was told that a community would vote it, but how in the hell do you expect people to vote over every little item?

I am sure I'll have more, but these are the ones I can think of atm.

though i'm not a farmer, i had a lot of the same questions when i began out as a revolutionary.

1. you stay a farmer i you want(yeah most of these have been answered quite well, i just thought i should give my[not as good or developed] perspective)

2. well curing Communism it will be collectively owned, so you pretty much share it with everyone who works there, and if they don't work or work less(not because of a medical condition or something) im sure you could fire them

3. the transitional period "DotP" or Socialism aims to change people.

4. don't exactly understand...but if you mean why we think it'll work, pretty much because compared to Capitalism and other socio-economic ideologies Communism makes the most sence.

5. yeah, other people have explained it far better than i ever could...lol.

[Yehuda Stern]

Comrade, I know it's hard for many people who are unfamiliar with left wing politics to tell the difference between the many different groups out there, so I'll just answer your questions myself instead of criticizing the others' answers.


1. What happens to me as a farmer?

America is an advanced imperialist state. Small farmers are not as common as they were in Soviet Russia. Still, I believe that the solution in the States would be quite similar to the one preferred by Lenin and Trotsky - revolutionary farmers will set up collective farms to demonstrate to you and other farmers that collective farming is in your interest. In this way we believe you will learn to accept the advantages of working class rule and be willing to give up your private property in the interests of yourself and society. The Stalinist method of terrorizing farmers into submission has nothing to do with Bolshevism.


2. Will my land, be mine, or when communism comes, if it does, will my land become everyone's, even though I paid for it?

I think my last point answers this question as well - we do not believe that the problem will arise because you will understand that collective ownership of land is in your interest.


3. I don't think Communism will work, because mankind is naturally power-hungry, so how will it get through that?

Most people reason this way, especially because of the misguided notion that the dictatorships in Russia, Eastern Europe, China, etc. were communist or Marxist regimes. The only answer I can give is that mankind isn't naturally power-hungry, but naturally seeks its survival. The role of workers is to show humanity that it can only survive through overthrowing capitalism and class society altogether.


4. How come communism is destined to work? Like Communism, hasn't been around that long compared to Monarchy, or Republic.

Communism will work because it'll use the advanced technological framework set up by capitalism, but it'll use it for the benefit of the people of the world, not for the interests of the capitalists of any given country. We have the material basis for feeding and giving a good standard of living to all of humanity - what stops us is the anarchic nature of the existing economy.


5. How do you know whats worth what? Like how much would a acre of my crops be to something else? I was told that a community would vote it, but how in the hell do you expect people to vote over every little item?

This question, I assume, refers to the transitional period, when the revolution has not yet been victorious all over the world - otherwise the question is a lot less relevant. If this is the case, prices would be set according to the value of the products, which is a function of the human labor invested in their production.

[Matty_UK]

I am afraid that if communism tries to take over, they will tell me its not my farm anymore, that I can't fire people if they are lazy.

This is a completely justified fear; if you are a farmer who is employed by a landowner, or a farmer who employs no-one and makes his living by selling his produce, you have nothing to fear from communism.

However, if like yourself you own a large plot of land where you employ a large number of workers who don't keep their own produce, but instead hand it all straight to you (you, who has protection by the state and their armed thugs, aka police force) and then you decide to give them back in wages a fraction of the money they've made for you, then you have every right to fear communism. Under communism, your land would be owned democratically by your employees who will make collective decisions on how to do the work and how to distribute what they produce.

[ThomasJeffersonIV]

Well, so far out of reading this I could never support communism. Not that it is a terrible idea, but the idea that it forces you to become one. I just want to own my own farm, and my own land, and be able to. If I did this, I would not be able to do much land, cause if I had workers, communists would somehow stop me lol.

To Joe Hill's Ghost: If they won't allow a farmer to not use a part for a year, you mine as well all go hungry lol. You might find this funny, but a lot of times, farmers have to grow something such as hay, then harvest it and burn it, and let it set for about a year, so the ground eats the nutrients.

[Dean]

I am an American Farmer, and I want to know that if you communists plan to take over or whatever the hell, I want to know some things, and was told this is a good place to ask.

1. What happens to me as a farmer?
You'll be able to farm with the security of knowing nobody will kick you off of your land.


2. Will my land, be mine, or when communism comes, if it does, will my land become everyone's, even though I paid for it?
It will probably stay as it is. If there are shortages, others will try to help you to farm, if you don't cooperate the land may have to be collected.


3. I don't think Communism will work, because mankind is naturally power-hungry, so how will it get through that?
I don't think capitalism has proven itself to work, because people are not sufficiently greedy and obsessed with economic numbers.


4. How come communism is destined to work? Like Communism, hasn't been around that long compared to Monarchy, or Republic.
If communism wont work, the human race is realyl fucked. Theres no point in expecting the worst, it will encourage you to help create the worst.


5. How do you know whats worth what? Like how much would a acre of my crops be to something else? I was told that a community would vote it, but how in the hell do you expect people to vote over every little item?
Worth is an illusion created in a competitive market. Since it serves no use objectively, but only in very specific subjective determinations, it will have little place in a communist economy.

[Bud Struggle]

I don't think capitalism has proven itself to work, because people are not sufficiently greedy and obsessed with economic numbers.

I must say, I don't agree with lots of stuff being said around here--but every now and then someone says something like the above that really makes a lot of sense.

That's an excellent point Dean made--I was thinking about wat RGacky said in another thread--do I really believe that everyon CAN be successful? And I was coming to the answer, "no" and not because of the system (not that it is in anyway perfect, but rather most people just are content with so little so easily.

Dean's comment really makes a lot of sense to me.

Sorry for going off topic....back to your regularly scheduled thread.

[Kropotesta]

Well, so far out of reading this I could never support communism. Not that it is a terrible idea, but the idea that it forces you to become one. I just want to own my own farm, and my own land, and be able to. If I did this, I would not be able to do much land, cause if I had workers, communists would somehow stop me lol.
If you are not the only person working the land, then why do you not consider the other people whom work it as equals with the same rights to use the land in common?
Also, in being able to have enough land for yourself to work, why would you want to employ others at all? That's if you wouldn't want to participate in a syndicate, which it appears that you wouldn't.


To Joe Hill's Ghost: If they won't allow a farmer to not use a part for a year, you mine as well all go hungry lol. You might find this funny, but a lot of times, farmers have to grow something such as hay, then harvest it and burn it, and let it set for about a year, so the ground eats the nutrients.
True. I would of thought that it was common knowledge that you can't simply keep re-harvesting the same land year in and year out.

[Bluetongue]

Some communists have the capacity to learn from past mistakes.

This "collectivist" BS is nonsense. America operates on agribusiness. Large scale mechanized agriculture. You start herding people into collectives and we'll all be eating our shoes. It's an INDUSTRY. There are no oppressed peons, and happy Joe Farmers with hoes and one man tractors do no contribute significantly. If Joe Farmer wants to go on growing organic produce for the local farmers' market, well and good.

The only thing structurally to change about agribusiness to to make it employee owned and get rid of the commodities market.

Ecologically, on the other hand, there's lots to change - but most actual farmers have already figured this out.

[Dros]

Collective ownership doesn't mean people will be forced off their personal property, only that they will produce for society.

He asked if he'd own his farm. He wouldn't. Period.


We've got to think beyong past practices, agricultural collectivization just would never fly in the USA. I suspect that the huge agribusinesses would be taken over by the state but that the little guy would be left alone.

First of all, the "little guys" when put together are huge, so no they would be collectivized.

Secondly, your vision of Communism looks more like petty bourgeois socialism to me. Collective ownership of the means of production does not mean that petty bourgeois ownership still happens.

Lastly, what the hell do you mean there won't be agricultural collectivization?! That's absolutely essential.


This "collectivist" BS is nonsense.

Well, at least your not even pretending that you're a Communist anymore. That's a good start for you.

[Matty_UK]

Well, so far out of reading this I could never support communism. Not that it is a terrible idea, but the idea that it forces you to become one. I just want to own my own farm, and my own land, and be able to. If I did this, I would not be able to do much land, cause if I had workers, communists would somehow stop me lol.

We won't prevent you, we just won't protect you, and we'll see how long it is before your employees realise you need them, your prosperity comes off their backs, and that they don't need you.

But communism isn't meant to be for you, it's for people who have to work for someone else just to survive.

[Killfacer]

sorry mate but i dont understand your criticism. Im not a communist but the reasons youv given seem pretty crap. You want to be able to fire lazy workers? Well theoretically there will not be lazy people as the pressure of other comrades would force them into action (thats my understanding). You want to own land? Why? Just because it sais its your land on a peice of paper, does that suddenly give it some kind of morale importance? Its a primitive instinct to want to own stuff. You would still have your house and it would not be billeted by 10 poor families.

[Dr Mindbender]

I am an American Farmer, and I want to know that if you communists plan to take over or whatever the hell, I want to know some things, and was told this is a good place to ask.

1. What happens to me as a farmer?

2. Will my land, be mine, or when communism comes, if it does, will my land become everyone's, even though I paid for it?

3. I don't think Communism will work, because mankind is naturally power-hungry, so how will it get through that?

4. How come communism is destined to work? Like Communism, hasn't been around that long compared to Monarchy, or Republic.

5. How do you know whats worth what? Like how much would a acre of my crops be to something else? I was told that a community would vote it, but how in the hell do you expect people to vote over every little item?

I am sure I'll have more, but these are the ones I can think of atm.

Didnt you read the FAQ? (http://www.revleft.com/vb/frequently-asked-questions-t65239/index.html)

[Wake Up]

Well, so far out of reading this I could never support communism. Not that it is a terrible idea, but the idea that it forces you to become one. I just want to own my own farm, and my own land, and be able to. If I did this, I would not be able to do much land, cause if I had workers, communists would somehow stop me lol.


To me this sounds like a distinctly anarchist view.
It seems that you just want to make your own way in life, through your farm, without interference from the state. The state taxes your profit and imposes blanket regulations that hinder your production, so you would be better off without it.

communists(and anarchists) are against the idea of employing workers because it is exploitation. You produce $1000 worth of produce in a day and pay your one worker $100 for his help. Obviously that is not fair as you get $900 and the worker gets $100 but you have both put in the same days work.
However communists would not 'stop' you as such from employing workers, its more a case of the workers not letting you exploit them. No-one in a communist society would allow themselves to be exploited in such a way, so you would find it pretty hard to employ people capitalist style.

Under communism/anarchism you would be allowed to run your farm alone, maybe the state/community would offer machinery etc in return for you supplying the community with produce from your farm - this is not interference though its merely a flat exchange of goods.

This is only in theory though, communism contains a central state/vanguard (at least initially) which is open to corruption that can lead to your fear of the, "idea that it forces you to become one."

I hardly wish to dictate your ideology, but from what you've posted you seem to have more in line with anarchist thoughts....


*Awaits to be labeled counter revolutionary.....*

[Bluetongue]

So, you, drosera, plan to bust up the machines and drive the people from the cities and make them toil on the land? That worked really well in SE Asia. Then again, you can always rewrite history after all the bad people have starved.

Collectivist farming in nonsense because the technology has surpassed that. We have industrial/biotech farming now. It would be more appropriate the give ownership of the agribusiness to the workers.

That's the difference here. I'm modern, you're a dinosaur. I adapt, you rumble on with Comrade Stalin and all that hopeless mess, trying to recreate something that was dysfunctional back in the industrial age.

We are allowed to flame in OI, right?

[trivas7]

He asked if he'd own his farm. He wouldn't. Period.

BS. There's no reason he couldn't own his farm under socialism.


Lastly, what the hell do you mean there won't be agricultural collectivization?! That's absolutely essential.

In your Maoist fantasy perhaps. Huge agribusiness doesn't require a bunch of collectivized farmers.

[Dr Mindbender]

BS. There's no reason he couldn't own his farm under socialism.

A farm is a means of production. So unless he is using it as a tool of self sufficiency, he would have to relinquish it rather than 'sell' his produce.

It is no different to a factory, office or school in that sense.

[Jazzratt]

We are allowed to flame in OI, right?

Unfortunately the policy is only relaxed on restricted members (and even then there are limits.). Of course, as long as you don't flame to excess (and you haven't) then you should be fine.

[Bud Struggle]

A farm is a means of production. So unless he is using it as a tool of self sufficiency, he would have to relinquish it rather than 'sell' his produce.

It is no different to a factory, office or school in that sense.

If he gets to keep his farm--I get to keep my factory--and God knows nobody around here is ever going to let that happen. :scared:

[Dr Mindbender]

If he gets to keep his farm--I get to keep my factory--and God knows nobody around here is ever going to let that happen. :scared:

all that stuff your factory produces are you going to use it yourself?

Of course not.

[Bud Struggle]

all that stuff your factory produces are you going to use it yourself?

Of course not.

I understand your point--I was just saying that you can't take the means of production from some people and then let other people keep their means of production--either you have Capitalism or you have Communism.

You can take my factory away, but you better damn well take EVERYBODY'S means of production away.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

I understand your point--I was just saying that you can't take the means of production from some people and then let other people keep their means of production--either you have Capitalism or you have Communism.

You can take my factory away, but you better damn well take EVERYBODY'S means of production away.


What he means is that if he grows stuff and eats it thats fine. But if he don't spread it into the community he ain't gonna be getting much else.

Your welcome to own your factory but that would be insane since for example you make coat hangers. - Cool you can sit in room full of coat hangers ....now how the hell will you eat.

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

Well, so far out of reading this I could never support communism. Not that it is a terrible idea, but the idea that it forces you to become one. I just want to own my own farm, and my own land, and be able to. If I did this, I would not be able to do much land, cause if I had workers, communists would somehow stop me lol.

To Joe Hill's Ghost: If they won't allow a farmer to not use a part for a year, you mine as well all go hungry lol. You might find this funny, but a lot of times, farmers have to grow something such as hay, then harvest it and burn it, and let it set for about a year, so the ground eats the nutrients.

*shrugs* It depends on the crop of course, though there are more efficient means of restoring soil nutrients than slash and burn.

Its not that you would be stopped from hiring anyone, its not no one would want to work for you. Wage labor is quite shitty when compared to freely directed labor under communism. It would be like someone becoming a serf in modern times, just not gonna happen.

[trivas7]

A farm is a means of production. So unless he is using it as a tool of self sufficiency, he would have to relinquish it rather than 'sell' his produce.

Exactly, as long he doesn't hire workers he produces for himself alone -- it shouldn't be taken from him tout court.

[freakazoid]

But its my land, if I paid for it, its mine, and if this comes and they say "oh sorry, you paid for it, but now, its everyone's" thats stealing.

Couldn't the same thing be said of slaves? They paid for them, making it theres. So they could say that it is stealing since the slaves would be taken from them, even though they paid for them, once they were freed. But the reason it isn't "stealing" is because it was wrong for them to own a slave to begin with.

Oh, and welcome to Revleft, :D

[trivas7]

Couldn't the same thing be said of slaves? They paid for them, making it theres. So they could say that it is stealing since the slaves would be taken from them, even though they paid for them, once they were freed. But the reason it isn't "stealing" is because it was wrong for them to own a slave to begin with.

Sorry, but I think this is a bad analogy. Farms aren't persons and will not rebel when oppressed. It only demonstrates that morality depends on social conditions.

[Bud Struggle]

Exactly, as long he doesn't hire workers he produces for himself alone -- it shouldn't be taken from him tout court.

And this is where Communism falls apart. The guy want to grow some tomatos and then sell a couple to some neighbours and you guys are selling him on Collective Farming.

[N3p7uN3]

And this is where Communism falls apart. The guy want to grow some tomatos and then sell a couple to some neighbours.

What motive, under communism, would anyone want to sell anything? You have no exclusive right to what you would try to 'sell', therefore, because there is no property, you can't possibly 'sell' anything under communism.

[Bud Struggle]

What motive, under communism, would anyone want to sell anything? You have no exclusive right to what you would try to 'sell', therefore, because there is no property, you can't possibly 'sell' anything under communism.
EXACTLY Comrade--and now that all the fun's taken out of life we-----

[pusher robot]

What motive, under communism, would anyone want to sell anything? You have no exclusive right to what you would try to 'sell', therefore, because there is no property, you can't possibly 'sell' anything under communism.

Including your own labor-power.

[Dean]

I must say, I don't agree with lots of stuff being said around here--but every now and then someone says something like the above that really makes a lot of sense.

That's an excellent point Dean made--I was thinking about wat RGacky said in another thread--do I really believe that everyon CAN be successful? And I was coming to the answer, "no" and not because of the system (not that it is in anyway perfect, but rather most people just are content with so little so easily.

Thanks :)

This is why we need to adopt a system that is truly responsive to human needs. The human is far too often ignored in socio-economic theories, it makes no sense to me...

[trivas7]

Including your own labor-power.
Exactly. So what's the problem?

[trivas7]

And this is where Communism falls apart. The guy want to grow some tomatos and then sell a couple to some neighbours and you guys are selling him on Collective Farming.
As long as he's growing for himself what's the problem? How does he he sell to his neighbor what his neighbor can get for free?

[trivas7]

That's an excellent point Dean made--I was thinking about wat RGacky said in another thread--do I really believe that everyon CAN be successful? And I was coming to the answer, "no" and not because of the system (not that it is in anyway perfect, but rather most people just are content with so little so easily.

Success everyone gets to define for themselves. Intrisically it is without objective content.

[RGacky3]

Thomas Jefferson IV (if that is your real name).

How is it your land? You paid for it, but how is it hte persons you baught it from? Ultimately someone just stod on that land and said ... "This is my land, screw you guys, I get to use it for myself and no one else can use it." I think that guy is stealing from everyone else. Saying I paid for it is great, but people paid for slaves too, does'nt mean the ownership is legitimate.

I think your questions have been answered enough though, if you wanna keep farming your land, and its not needed for the common good, then I see no problem with it, although you'd probably need much less of it to feed your family and yourself, and I'm sure no one has a problem with that, if thats all you want to do, and don't want to contribute to society at all, (Which I doubt is the case).

[BIG BROTHER]

Thomas in a communist society why would you want to keep the land all for yourself? I mean in a capitalist one, you use to sustain yourself economically, but in a communist society were the economy is a gift economy you wouldn't need to own the land, rather the whole community would need the land so they could use it for the benefit of the population.

[Plagueround]

I have to admit, I stopped reading this thread after the guy who's forum name comes from Thomas Jefferson started ranting about stealing land. As they say on the less savory parts of the internet, [email protected] sir.

[Bud Struggle]

As long as he's growing for himself what's the problem? How does he he sell to his neighbor what his neighbor can get for free?

Because all tomatoes (for example) are not alike. People may get OK tomatoes from Communism, but let's say that TJIV grows really better tomatoes than you can get in the average Communist free supermarket--they are worth more, yet there doesn't seem to be a way for him to sell those better tomatoes without breaking the rules of society.

He can't expand his better tomato growing without hiring people to help him--only HE can eat his better tomatoes.

[RGacky3]

Because all tomatoes (for example) are not alike. People may get OK tomatoes from Communism, but let's say that TJIV grows really better tomatoes than you can get in the average Communist free supermarket--they are worth more, yet there doesn't seem to be a way for him to sell those better tomatoes without breaking the rules of society.

He can't expand his better tomato growing without hiring people to help him--only HE can eat his better tomatoes.

Why would he want to sell his better tomatoes? Why can't he just say "hey I have a better way of growing tomatoes." Thus other people will look and say "many those are good tomatoes good job, show us how its done." Then he shows, and better tomatoes for everyone, now what would his motivation be for this? Betterment of hte community he lives in, the better he does, the,better his community is, the better his community is the better he is, and a job well done.

[Robert]

Why would he want to sell his better tomatoes?

Tom, I can't stand it anymore ....

Gacky, the grower is altruistic, yes, but he has more tomatoes than he can eat and more than he can give to his neighbors within shouting distance. We don't want them to rot.

Now, there are comrades 750 miles away from him who would like to enjoy some of these nice tomatoes too. No, they can't grow them in their own yards because of the weather or the soil chemistry.

You are chief of all comrades; explain how the tomatoes get from the grower to the consumer without some medium of exchange. Consider all links in the supply chain in your answer.

[Bud Struggle]

Tom, I can't stand it anymore ....

Gacky, the grower is altruistic, yes, but he has more tomatoes than he can eat and more than he can give to his neighbors within shouting distance. We don't want them to rot.

Now, there are comrades 750 miles away from him who would like to enjoy some of these nice tomatoes too. No, they can't grow them in their own yards because of the weather or the soil chemistry.

You are chief of all comrades; explain how the tomatoes get from the grower to the consumer without some medium of exchange. Consider all links in the supply chain in your answer.

Missed you,:thumbup: brother. You shall be the new Lenin, I the new Trotsky--Communism shall be ours!

[Bluetongue]

Basic lesson from the history of communism:

Don't mess with your food supply.

Realistically, anything you try with the agricultural system in the US runs the risk of creating world wide famine. Even by increasing the price of food, you will starve people. And, no, you can't grow it and give it away, it costs enormous amounts of raw material, petroleum, machinery, pesticides, fertilizers, etc, to produce that food.

[534634634265]

just a thought on all of this. what prevents the development of a huge black market much like that which was seen in "communist" russia and germany?
if TJIV wants to sell those dank tomatoes hes got to someone on the lowdown, how would you prevent this? maybe he trades his delicious fruit for sexual favors?:blushing:
how does communism even deal with the sex trade?

[Kropotesta]

just a thought on all of this. what prevents the development of a huge black market much like that which was seen in "communist" russia and germany?
Well to start, I don't think we should look to the USSR for inspiration. If the majority work in collectivised conditions and a few who own their own small 'means of production' specifcally in an attempt to sell the produce back, well I don't know about you but I wouldn't be happy, understand?

if TJIV wants to sell those dank tomatoes hes got to someone on the lowdown, how would you prevent this? maybe he trades his delicious fruit for sexual favors?:blushing:
I highly doubt that anyone would have sex with someone to get a specfic type of tomato, or anything else for that matter if they don't want to and alternatives are freely distributed?

how does communism even deal with the sex trade?
Are you serious? We aim to abolish the material conditions that breeds this sort of behaviour. What are you gonna to do? Force someone to take your tomatoes for sex?

[Dean]

Because all tomatoes (for example) are not alike. People may get OK tomatoes from Communism, but let's say that TJIV grows really better tomatoes than you can get in the average Communist free supermarket--they are worth more, yet there doesn't seem to be a way for him to sell those better tomatoes without breaking the rules of society.

He can't expand his better tomato growing without hiring people to help him--only HE can eat his better tomatoes.

Why can't he ask people to help him? What communist tendancy does this go against? And why can't he grow and share his Tomatoes?

You seem to think that communism is a heavily collectivized, regulated industry. It's not; it's just returning the power of man's labor to him. There is no sanction against growing and sharing your own crop, or getting people to work with you.

[Bud Struggle]

Why can't he ask people to help him? What communist tendancy does this go against? And why can't he grow and share his Tomatoes?

You seem to think that communism is a heavily collectivized, regulated industry. It's not; it's just returning the power of man's labor to him. There is no sanction against growing and sharing your own crop, or getting people to work with you.

Kind of like the Amish. :)

It might work--but I feel down deep in my heart I'd be one of those Black Market kind of guys. :blushing:

[Kropotesta]

I'd be one of those Black Market kind of guys. :blushing:
What would you sell and how would it be produced?

[Bud Struggle]

What would you sell and how would it be produced?

I don't know, but I'd find something--as a Capitalist that's what I do--and I do it pretty well. Every system has glitches and holes in it and I've trained myself over the years to spot those glitches and exploit them.

It's just how I think--I think you guys are going to have to shoot me when the Revolutuion comes. :(

[Plagueround]

I don't know, but I'd find something--as a Capitalist that's what I do--and I do it pretty well. Every system has glitches and holes in it and I've trained myself over the years to spot those glitches and exploit them.

It's just how I think--I think you guys are going to have to shoot me when the Revolutuion comes. :(

I was thinking we could build a model factory for you to run, complete with downtrodden robot workers (think Pirates of the Carribean) and make it a museum for people to see what the old system was like. It would give you a chance to parody yourself and be a Mr. Burns like tyrant. ;)

[RGacky3]

Now, there are comrades 750 miles away from him who would like to enjoy some of these nice tomatoes too. No, they can't grow them in their own yards because of the weather or the soil chemistry.

You are chief of all comrades; explain how the tomatoes get from the grower to the consumer without some medium of exchange. Consider all links in the supply chain in your answer.

The Anarchist concepts of a gift economy and mutual assistance go over that, I'm sure you've come across them before.

[534634634265]

so you think jsut because we all have work and life is peachy there arent still going to be whores? women are aware of the ability to trade their body for what they want. men too for that matter, though i dont know if YOU swing that way...:blink:
and while i believe in the power of socialism and hope fervently to see "the revolution" come in my life, i would still gladly trade on the black market for the things i wanted or needed, just as many in russia and germany did.
until you provide a museum where i can be an old-world pimp pushing his robo-whores onto the oggling proletarian tourists im not satisfied.:):)

[trivas7]

Well to start, I don't think we should look to the USSR for inspiration.
Yes, agreed.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I was thinking we could build a model factory for you to run, complete with downtrodden robot workers (think Pirates of the Carribean) and make it a museum for people to see what the old system was like. It would give you a chance to parody yourself and be a Mr. Burns like tyrant. ;)

Exxxcellent! :laugh:

[pusher robot]

just a thought on all of this. what prevents the development of a huge black market much like that which was seen in "communist" russia and germany?
if TJIV wants to sell those dank tomatoes hes got to someone on the lowdown, how would you prevent this? maybe he trades his delicious fruit for sexual favors?:blushing:
how does communism even deal with the sex trade?


Sex trade? They couldn't even figure out how to tip the stripper (http://www.revleft.com/vb/gratuities-t58844/index.html?t=58844&highlight=stripper).

[Kropotesta]

so you think jsut because we all have work and life is peachy there arent still going to be whores? women are aware of the ability to trade their body for what they want. men too for that matter, though i dont know if YOU swing that way...:blink:
Why do people become prostitutes on the large? Money, which caused by the material conditions. Take money and hierarchy out of the equation, and add a gift economy, why would anyone who didn't want to 'sell there body' do so? You still haven't still answered that question.


and while i believe in the power of socialism and hope fervently to see "the revolution" come in my life, i would still gladly trade on the black market for the things i wanted or needed, just as many in russia and germany did.
As I said, not many here would look to the USSR for inspiration, so that isn't really relevant. What would you trade? How would you produce it? Who would even want it? What would you trade for?

[Robert]

I highly doubt that anyone would have sex with someone to get a specfic type of tomatoThis would be funnier if "tomato" hadn't already passed out of our lexicon. Oh well, I guess you had to be there.



The Anarchist concepts of a gift economy and mutual assistance go over that, I'm sure you've come across them before.Yes, I have, and they strike me as plausible as a perpetual motion machine. Concepts are always great on paper.

Our tomato moves from point A to point B along a complex distribution chain: a picker picks it, then local truckers haul it to a local warehouse, then other truckers move it (the tomato) from the warehouse to a distribution center, sometimes millions of square feet big. Reverse to go from distribution center to local warehouse to local store to your table. Are you going to agree to work anywhere along that chain, picking that tomato in the hot sun based on trust that someone, somewhere, is going to just give you whatever you want in return?

If not, the chain breaks. And then there are no tomatoes for anyone in December unless they live near the equator. Or unless someone comes along and forces you to pick tomatoes for the good of the People or somesuch. Ring a bell?

Don't say machines will pick all the tomatoes. Even if they did, somebody has to operate the machine.

[Annie K.]

And what's the problem with that ? The decrease of commercial traffic is an ecologic necessity. If you want fruits in winter, eat apples, and if you really want your tomato, nothing keeps you from moving south.

[Bud Struggle]

And what's the problem with that ? The decrease of commercial traffic is an ecologic necessity. If you want fruits in winter, eat apples, and if you really want your tomato, nothing keeps you from moving south.

Or buying it on the Black Market. :D

[Robert]

Annie, I have to admit that's an extremely good answer. I fear it will cause more unemployment, but may be that's inevitable anyway as petroleum reserves dwindle.

[Annie K.]

Petroleum and others ressources.
The revolution can't be anything but global. And our planet is not sufficient to allow 6 billions humans to consume like an American Farmer.
There's no choice but to stop working and start living...

[Bluetongue]

And what's the problem with that ? The decrease of commercial traffic is an ecologic necessity. If you want fruits in winter, eat apples, and if you really want your tomato, nothing keeps you from moving south.Global famine and depopulation. You can't feed 6 billion people with ecologically sustainable practices, certainly not if they continue to eat meat. (Which implies that global famine is inevitable, depending on your view of future energy resources)

True, the USgov subsidizes agriculture specifically to make the world at large dependent on the US market. That could be changed, slowly. But logically, anything that lowers productivity would require more land to feed the same number of people.

If you had instant world government, you could run the US/EU/PRC machine for a decade while the oceans recover (meaning no fishing whatsoever), then use that as a reserve while switching to sustainable agriculture. And massive efforts towards population control (educating and empowering women). But once again, how do you get people to agree to that?

[Robert]

Global famine and depopulation.Yep.


And massive efforts towards population control.Yep.


But once again, how do you get people to agree to that?I don't know. I think most Chinese are complying with the one child policy. Of course, in China they won't need a word for "cousin" or "uncle" in a few generations. Tough business.

http://geography.about.com/od/populationgeography/a/onechild.htm

[Bud Struggle]

Yep.

Yep.

I don't know. I think most Chinese are complying with the one child policy. Of course, in China they won't need a word for "cousin" or "uncle" in a few generations.

They don't have a word for "daughter" anymore.

[Annie K.]

Famines are already a reality, and it's not caused by shortages of production, but by market policies. The global agricultural production can feed 12 billion people. A reorganization of the production and distribution would be largely sufficient to avoid massive depopulation.


how do you get people to agree to that? The same way you get instant world government...
A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery... or a random process. There is no point in imagining communism without communists.

_______________________________
One-third of the humanity is starving, and the rest is dead.

[534634634265]

i only saw one attempt to answer my question.
if i'm a sexually attractive woman who is lazy (goes without saying:D) and i trade my body for things i want like hard drugs, how would that be any different under communism?
also, unless the whole world undergoes the red revolution at the same time, we'll be cut off from the majority of our imports. how many countries produce enough food for their own people to survive? i'm gonna guess none. this model idea of a gift economy doesnt answer the human urge to have the forbidden fruit. if i can only get dank tomatoes from TJIV and he lives in Bumfuckistan, i'll probably end up going to him and offering something for those tomatos. what you ask? i dont know, whatever he wants (still assuming im a sexually attractive female). its not like because you eliminate currency you also eliminate barter.

[Annie K.]

if i'm a sexually attractive woman who is lazy (goes without saying:D) and i trade my body for things i want like hard drugs, how would that be any different under communism?Because i already fuck your potentially dealer and give drugs i make in the plant i share with friends to random people for fun.


(still assuming im a sexually attractive female)Why ? Maybe he could fuck you for tomatoes even if you're a male. It goes without saying that heterosexuality will disappear along with currency.

[Bud Struggle]

Because i already fuck your potentially dealer

Sorry CL--Sorry, as a Capitalist--I already saw the means of distribution and filled the slot of dealer.

Annie--Tuesday's and Saturdays--about 11 PM. :)

[Annie K.]

I already saw the means of distribution and filled the slot of dealer.Ah sorry... I don't understand what you mean, and can't propose any witty retort.

Oh well, i'll try a shot in the dark.
Tuesdays and saturdays only ? i'm offensed, you underestimate me.

[Labor Shall Rule]

I am an American Farmer, and I want to know that if you communists plan to take over or whatever the hell, I want to know some things, and was told this is a good place to ask.

1. What happens to me as a farmer?

2. Will my land, be mine, or when communism comes, if it does, will my land become everyone's, even though I paid for it?

3. I don't think Communism will work, because mankind is naturally power-hungry, so how will it get through that?

4. How come communism is destined to work? Like Communism, hasn't been around that long compared to Monarchy, or Republic.

5. How do you know whats worth what? Like how much would a acre of my crops be to something else? I was told that a community would vote it, but how in the hell do you expect people to vote over every little item?

I am sure I'll have more, but these are the ones I can think of atm.

You are a farmer at a time in which the growth of large corporate farms (i.e. agribusiness), both within and outside the U.S. has increased the supply of goods and has caused a sharp fall in commodity prices. The 'globalists' started to knock down barriers and protectionist policies as the Clinton years started, with 20 percent of full-time farmers leaving agriculture, compared to 8 percent in the previous decade (he threw out farm subsidies and price supports as a 'free-market' measure).

With recessionary trends up, bankruptcy of family-farms has been ever higher. If you are a small farmer (as in–you have complete ownership and provide your own land for production), then you'd likely be granted low-interest credits to keep you from going into bankruptcy.

But the 'factory-farms', the large-scale fields that pump vast surpluses of agricultural commodities, would likely be public owned. In a world where there is enormous hunger, precisely because the 'unprofitable' qualities of tomatoes or corn on the global market simply do not make them appear as attractive investments for agribusiness, socialist agriculture will be directed towards meeting the social needs of the world.

[Bud Struggle]

Ah sorry... I don't understand what you mean, and can't propose any witty retort.

Oh well, i'll try a shot in the dark.
Tuesdays and saturdays only ? i'm offensed, you underestimate me.

Oh--that's pretty witty. :lol:

I am more than willing to give up my Communist Party Membership, go back to a Feudal way of thinking--and be your slave (of the love variety.)

You are the best thing that hit Rev Left since Drosera.

[Robert]

ou are the best thing that hit Rev Left

Second best.

I actually know some family farmers who have gone bankrupt. Unlike the farmers of yore, they tend to borrow hundreds of thousands of dollars per year from federally insured banks to plant enormous acreage with soybeans. The loans are guaranteed, too (i.e., the banks are protected just as its depositors are). Some make it. But if they have just one bad crop, due either to drought or flood, insects and disease being largely controllable, then they're a couple hundred thousand in the hole. Just like that. Corporations can absorb this kind of setback; a one man band in a flood plain cannot.

[Annie K.]

Well TomK, i fear my landlord wouldn't be happy with me having a slave, since he doesn't allow me to own anything alive except goldfish.
But anyway, as recommended by the comrade Ravachol, i'm supposed to be happy only after hanging him, that will provide a good opportunity.

Come anytime.


Second best.Let's say i didn't understand.

[Bud Struggle]

Well TomK, i fear my landlord wouldn't be happy with me having a slave, since he doesn't allow me to own anything alive except goldfish.
But anyway, as recommended by the comrade Ravachol, i'm supposed to be happy only after hanging him, that will provide a good opportunity.

Come anytime.

I consider that an invitation. I'll bring the rope. ;) :lol:

And that thing about drosera? Well dros is kind of hot--all the comrads like the style. :)

[Labor Shall Rule]

You are a farmer at a time in which the growth of large corporate farms (i.e. agribusiness), both within and outside the U.S. has increased the supply of goods and has caused a sharp fall in commodity prices. The 'globalists' started to knock down barriers and protectionist policies as the Clinton years started, with 20 percent of full-time farmers leaving agriculture, compared to 8 percent in the previous decade (he threw out farm subsidies and price supports as a 'free-market' measure).

With recessionary trends up, bankruptcy of family-farms has been ever higher. If you are a small farmer (as in–you have complete ownership and provide your own land for production), then you'd likely be granted low-interest credits to keep you from going into bankruptcy.

But the 'factory-farms', the large-scale fields that pump vast surpluses of agricultural commodities, would likely be public owned. In a world where there is enormous hunger, precisely because the 'unprofitable' qualities of tomatoes or corn on the global market simply do not make them appear as attractive investments for agribusiness, socialist agriculture will be directed towards meeting the social needs of the world.

Bump*

[534634634265]

Because i already fuck your potentially dealer and give drugs i make in the plant i share with friends to random people for fun.

Why ? Maybe he could fuck you for tomatoes even if you're a male. It goes without saying that heterosexuality will disappear along with currency.

but how does the revolution do away with lazy whores???

[RedAnarchist]

Bump*

Why bump a thread an hour or so after it was last posted in?

[Annie K.]

but how does the revolution do away with lazy whores??? The same way than with german jews!!!

_________________________
Nous sommes tous des dissous en puissance
Nous sommes tous des juifs et des allemands
Nous sommes tous des dissous en puissance
Nous sommes tous des juifs allemands !

[534634634265]

The same way than with german jews!!!


i don't feel comfortable with my revolutionary duties consisting of destroying the one thing american culture has a surplus of.(the whores, not the jews).

also, i had a debate earlier on this with a woman friend of mine.
in america, woman are viewed culturally as dumber and less able.
how would the revolution combat that mindset? re-education?:blink:
arbitrary advancement of women to authority roles? :blink::bored::blink:(i shudder to think)

[Labor Shall Rule]

Why bump a thread an hour or so after it was last posted in?

I was bored and desperate.

[Nietzsche's Ghost]

As a fellow farmer I dont see how communism(or anarcho-communism) would be bad for a farmer. Every year my family must buy new expensive machinery in order to scrape by. We lose money for a few years then maybe 1 year we make a profit. My father works to the bone and we dont have much to show for it. He has numerous ailments and we had to hire a worker to help(and he makes quite a lot considering he doesnt work everyday). With communism you wouldnt have to work all day because there would be so many more people to help you leaving time to do things you enjoy and if you enjoy farming that much you could continue or work with animals..it doesnt matter

[Comrade Rage]

I am an American Farmer, and I want to know that if you communists plan to take over or whatever the hell, I want to know some things, and was told this is a good place to ask.

[QUOTE=ThomasJeffersonIV;1183624]1. What happens to me as a farmer?You would be allowed to continue farming your land. If you have employees, you and your employees will farm it collectively.


2. Will my land, be mine, or when communism comes, if it does, will my land become everyone's, even though I paid for it?All property will be made public/state-owned. However, in the case of the traditional farm, I think that the farmers should be refunded the money that they paid for their farms. This would be accomplished after the banks and their holdings have been seized.


3. I don't think Communism will work, because mankind is naturally power-hungry, so how will it get through that?Education, for one thing. Also, government operations will be better covered by the media. Also, neighborhood/town workers' councils will also have decision making power.

A lot of it will depend on more citizen involvement.


4. How come communism is destined to work? Like Communism, hasn't been around that long compared to Monarchy, or Republic.And they worked, eventually. Much like it took the republic a long time to be correctly implemented, communism has evolved the same way. Mistakes were made, but we've learned from them.


5. How do you know whats worth what? Like how much would a acre of my crops be to something else? I was told that a community would vote it, but how in the hell do you expect people to vote over every little item?Chapter 1 of Part 1 of Das Kapital provides that information. I'd go into it here, but it would probably better if I just link it.
Das Kapital Part 1 Chapter 1 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm)
Read these two sections of the chapter, in particular
Section 1 - The Two Factors of a Commodity: Use-Value and Value (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm#S1)
Section 3 - The Form of Value or Exchange-Value (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm#S3)

[ThomasJeffersonIV]

K, I am back.

I have been workin in the tobbaco fields for the last 2 weeks, and aint had much time.

So, here:

I think you guys are getting the idea I am rich. Far from it, I have to work for other people to make enough money to pay for my allowance into the MMA so I can fight, and then, whatever is left is gas money, which is not near enough.

It is my land, because I paid for it, because I had to do a lot of labor to pay for it?

So, since my farm would be a food production, it would be taken away? How exactly, will communism take it away? Like, will they send soldiers and tlel me to get off, or what? (I am not tryin to troll, I just don't see how that works out)

The slaves didn't own the land, because they were slaves, I do not agree with that, but its true. Most afterwards became share-croppers, which is just a fancy name for working like a slave and getting paid enough to buy enough food for 1 person.

[Plagueround]

I think you guys are getting the idea I am rich. Far from it, I have to work for other people to make enough money to pay for my allowance into the MMA so I can fight, and then, whatever is left is gas money, which is not near enough.

Sounds like capitalism is treating you like shit good sir.


It is my land, because I paid for it, because I had to do a lot of labor to pay for it?


What part of the country are you from? Sure you bought the land, but where did that person get it from? As a Native American, it's possible my people lived on and "owned" that land at some point. You could give it back to me if you're concerned about rightful ownership of land. If it's not my tribe, I'll gladly locate the tribe that owned it before they were forced off of it. Then again, they may have taken it from someone else, might want to find out if it was ever acquired from another tribe...or it's possible it may be a part of the country they didn't own at all...or maybe they were one of those tribes that didn't really believe in ownership....Just to be safe, we better check archaeological records to make sure the people who end up with the land are direct descendants of whatever people lived there first...See how silly this can get?

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

K, I am back.

I have been workin in the tobbaco fields for the last 2 weeks, and aint had much time.

So, here:

I think you guys are getting the idea I am rich. Far from it, I have to work for other people to make enough money to pay for my allowance into the MMA so I can fight, and then, whatever is left is gas money, which is not near enough.

It is my land, because I paid for it, because I had to do a lot of labor to pay for it?

So, since my farm would be a food production, it would be taken away? How exactly, will communism take it away? Like, will they send soldiers and tlel me to get off, or what? (I am not tryin to troll, I just don't see how that works out)

The slaves didn't own the land, because they were slaves, I do not agree with that, but its true. Most afterwards became share-croppers, which is just a fancy name for working like a slave and getting paid enough to buy enough food for 1 person.

I'm a bit confused. Sounds like you're not much of a farmer. It sounds like you work as a farm hand, and then go fight Mixed Martial arts (which is awesome!). Do you also farm your land on the side? Anyway it sounds like you're not exactly hiring anyone else, in which case, farm away. You're not exploiting anyone, so farm to your heart's content.

[ThomasJeffersonIV]

lol, you can try to give it to the indians from me, but I'd shoot the people that try to take it, but it still won't be fair. I still worked a long time for it.

What about my cows? Do they belong to everyone, or are they mine? Could someone come over and slaughter one of htem, and I can't say anything?


I'm a bit confused. Sounds like you're not much of a farmer. It sounds like you work as a farm hand, and then go fight Mixed Martial arts (which is awesome!). Do you also farm your land on the side? Anyway it sounds like you're not exactly hiring anyone else, in which case, farm away. You're not exploiting anyone, so farm to your heart's content.

I farm on my own, and I work for others.

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

lol, you can try to give it to the indians from me, but I'd shoot the people that try to take it, but it still won't be fair. I still worked a long time for it.

What about my cows? Do they belong to everyone, or are they mine? Could someone come over and slaughter one of htem, and I can't say anything?



I farm on my own, and I work for others.

Yeah nothing will happen to your farm then, except you wouldn't have to work for anyone else. So really, revolution is a net gain for you.

[freakazoid]

It is my land, because I paid for it, because I had to do a lot of labor to pay for it?

If someone steals something, like a bike for example, then sells it to someone else, who's bike is it? Basically what Plagueround said.

[RedAnarchist]

TJIV, who was the first owner of that land, and what right did they have to claim it as their own and sell it? WHo was the first owner of land anywhere, for that matter?

[534634634265]

TJIV, who was the first owner of that land, and what right did they have to claim it as their own and sell it? WHo was the first owner of land anywhere, for that matter?

i was:)
i did a big real estate deal with god before anyone existed. he promised me the whole of earth in exchange for my immortal soul. seems like a sweet deal to me.

[Plagueround]

i was:)
i did a big real estate deal with god before anyone existed. he promised me the whole of earth in exchange for my immortal soul. seems like a sweet deal to me.

I sold my soul to god for a Power Wheels Corvette. He tricked me though...I got the pink Barbie themed one. :(

[534634634265]

I sold my soul to god for a Power Wheels Corvette. He tricked me though...I got the pink Barbie themed one. :(
man did you get shafted. so far i haven't gotten my land, but when the rapture comes and all the good christian people are gone i'll claim theirs in the name of the people. it'll be great, i can set up my own little stalin-esque regime, except i'll be the only one in it. i'll send myself directives concerning the direction of the people, inter myself into a gulag. it'll be effin great.:rolleyes:

[Bud Struggle]

TJIV, who was the first owner of that land, and what right did they have to claim it as their own and sell it? WHo was the first owner of land anywhere, for that matter?

Dead guys were the first owners--they don't need it anymore, then other dead guys, a whole string of them, and now people of our generation. But soon we'll all be dead guys and won't need the land anymore and other people will own it.

[RedAnarchist]

Dead guys were the first owners--they don't need it anymore, then other dead guys, a whole string of them, and now people of our generation. But soon we'll all be dead guys and won't need the land anymore and other people will own it.

Who did the first "dead guys" buy it off then? You don't know because the first people to own land decided for themselves that a certain piece of land was theirs to control. In the early days of land ownership, it would have been mostly the Church (in the West) or the Monarch.

[534634634265]

In the early days of land ownership, it would have been mostly the Church (in the West) or the Monarch.

AHHH!!! unfair and unprovable bias towards religion!! nooooooo...
ahem... the first people to "own" land were the first greedy/needy people. not necessarily the church. the monarch was a closer stab. no one "owned" land until people started to "own" their possessions. just like its TJIV's farm tools its TJIV's land.
the first people to own land weren't the ruling classes but were likely the farmers who worked that land. think about it. farmer works all day to produce his crop, takes pride in the production of said crop, then someone else takes it for nothing? over that farmers dead body.

[Bud Struggle]

ahem... the first people to "own" land were the first greedy/needy people.
There you have it. The land belongs to the greedy people!!!!:)

[Killfacer]

its pretty difficult to say who first owned land. Some tribe of neanderthals probably claimed some land as their own? Or if thats too ridiculous then maybe a babylonian monarch? Certainly not the church first.

[Labor Shall Rule]

K, I am back.

I have been workin in the tobbaco fields for the last 2 weeks, and aint had much time.

So, here:

I think you guys are getting the idea I am rich. Far from it, I have to work for other people to make enough money to pay for my allowance into the MMA so I can fight, and then, whatever is left is gas money, which is not near enough.

It is my land, because I paid for it, because I had to do a lot of labor to pay for it?

So, since my farm would be a food production, it would be taken away? How exactly, will communism take it away? Like, will they send soldiers and tlel me to get off, or what? (I am not tryin to troll, I just don't see how that works out)

The slaves didn't own the land, because they were slaves, I do not agree with that, but its true. Most afterwards became share-croppers, which is just a fancy name for working like a slave and getting paid enough to buy enough food for 1 person.

You are a farmer at a time in which the growth of large corporate farms (i.e. agribusiness), both within and outside the U.S. has increased the supply of goods and has caused a sharp fall in commodity prices. The 'globalists' started to knock down barriers and protectionist policies as the Clinton years started, with 20 percent of full-time farmers leaving agriculture, compared to 8 percent in the previous decade (he threw out farm subsidies and price supports as a 'free-market' measure).

With recessionary trends up, bankruptcy of family-farms has been ever higher. If you are a small farmer (as in–you have complete ownership and provide your own land for production), then you'd likely be granted low-interest credits to keep you from going into bankruptcy.

But the 'factory-farms', the large-scale fields that pump vast surpluses of agricultural commodities, would likely be public owned. In a world where there is enormous hunger, precisely because the 'unprofitable' qualities of tomatoes or corn on the global market simply do not make them appear as attractive investments for agribusiness, socialist agriculture will be directed towards meeting the social needs of the world.

[RedKnight]

Small family farms, just like small family buisnesses, because of there diminuative capital, can not efficiently carry out production at a scale necessary to function in the modern age. I predict that agriculture will either be collectivised http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_cooperative http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_farming, under socialism, or will become corporatised http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_farming,under capitalism.