Put your $$$ where your mouth is.

[Capitalist Imperial]

OK, leftists.

Now I see that there is a Paypal set up for charitable donations to this Mecca of misinformation.

Charity, hmmm, a uniquely capitalist concept!

How many of you have supported the revolution by donating some of your hard-earned funds to this site? As commmies and leftists I am sure that your $$$ is not as important as the cause, right?

Comeon, pukes, show of hands! Chime in anytime!

[antieverything]

I wouldn't spend more than a few bucks to keep this site alive...only for the sake of the forums, though.

I don't understand what you are trying to get at, CI. I and many others like me have dedicated our entire lives to the cause.

[suffianr]

I bet you'd be the first to donate, CI. Come on, where else do you get to swagger around in your ill-tempered Capitalist pomposity?

Where else are you going to boost your own ego, reinforce your own prejudices and moon your ass at left-wingers, all at the same time. Why, it right here at Che-Lives, of course! Come on down, the price is right!

...And where else do you get to fulfil your own sado-masochistic pleasure at being riled, laughed and pissed on by a bunch of people who you, by and large, enjoy provoking into arguments for the sake of arguing?

Come on, Yanky Boy, show us some love... :)

[munkey soup]

I gave some money back in March when Malte said he really needed it, what's your point?

[RedCeltic]

Capitalist Imperial,

Do you think this website if free? Just because the topic of the board is Socialism doesn't mean the web-server is.

Malte isn't independently wealthy and has said plenty of times that the server in Canada cost him $100 a month.

The Pay pall option isn't new; I donated $100 during the summer. However the website was mostly being paid for by t-shirt sales. Malte sold Che shirts and paid for the board.

Now he can't because Korda's daughter is claims that she owns the rights to Che's image, Malte has to rely totally on donations.

Otherwise this "Mecca of misinformation" you frequent will be no more.

[Tkinter1]

Che-Lives already has a 'lefty store' which contradicts with the 'movement' as is.... So what do they need a donation box for? He must be getting a little greedy.

Dont even try to tell me that Malte puts every penny into this site and none into his pockets.

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 9:26 pm on Nov. 21, 2002)

[Anonymous]

the present is capitalism, we must use money to survive nowdays, if there is a small rest of dignity and inteligence in this world this bulshit wilol stop, yet we now need this shit taht we fight...


Btw i think we should force the cappies to "donate"! Buahahahhahahahahhahahahah

[Tkinter1]

right..

[Jaha]

CI, do you understand the stupidity of this thread? if someone doesnt donate, they may be short on cash. if someone does, they wont necessarily flaunt it. if malte pockets the money, he is liable to be sued. if this whole thing is capitalistic, look around. malte does not truely have the option to set up a commune to maintain a website.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from suffianr on 9:11 pm on Nov. 21, 2002
I bet you'd be the first to donate, CI. Come on, where else do you get to swagger around in your ill-tempered Capitalist pomposity?

Where else are you going to boost your own ego, reinforce your own prejudices and moon your ass at left-wingers, all at the same time. Why, it right here at Che-Lives, of course! Come on down, the price is right!

...And where else do you get to fulfil your own sado-masochistic pleasure at being riled, laughed and pissed on by a bunch of people who you, by and large, enjoy provoking into arguments for the sake of arguing?

Come on, Yanky Boy, show us some love... :)


LOL, OK, dude, that was pretty funny.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 9:18 pm on Nov. 21, 2002
Capitalist Imperial,

Do you think this website if free? Just because the topic of the board is Socialism doesn't mean the web-server is.

Malte isn't independently wealthy and has said plenty of times that the server in Canada cost him $100 a month.

The Pay pall option isn't new; I donated $100 during the summer. However the website was mostly being paid for by t-shirt sales. Malte sold Che shirts and paid for the board.

Now he can't because Korda's daughter is claims that she owns the rights to Che's image, Malte has to rely totally on donations.

Otherwise this "Mecca of misinformation" you frequent will be no more.



who is korda and who is korda's daughter?

[El Che]

Korda is the photographer that shot the famous image of Che.

[Capitalist Imperial]

oh...

so then, malte can't sell his shirts because of the liability, as korda claims rights to the image, I see

[RedCeltic]

The famous image of Che which you see up above and on the flag when you first go to the website was taken by a man named Korda.

According to Malte, his daughter is claiming to have the rights for the image and has written a nice letter to the guy who's running thechestore.com which is selling goods from Cuba.

Malte is using commissions from shirts sold at thechestore.com to help pay for this website.

And: Tkinter1, You wanna tell me how Malte is becoming wealthy on t-shirt commissions?

[techguru]

as far as donations, wouldnt charity be considered anti capatilist?

think about it, giving away capital to help a cause you deem worthy... doesnt sound capatilistic to me.

[Tkinter1]

When did i say Malte was becoming wealthy off commisions?

[RedCeltic]

Sorry, you didn't say that exactly... you said:

"Dont even try to tell me that Malte puts every penny into this site and none into his pockets."

I doubt he makes more that $100 a month off of them. Regardless, the point is they can't be soled any longer.

[Flambeau]

If this is a so called " Mecca of misinformation" why do you come here?? To whine?
Web servers are not free and If this it needs donations to survive so be it, we live in a capitalist dominated world and there are some thing we can"t escape

[Iepilei]

well it's not easy getting by with socialist concepts when you're living in a capitalist environment. you have to sail your ears and work a wage-slave position in order to keep yourself, you know, alive.

but it's okay - sooner or later the cappies are going to know exactly how it feels.

[Stormin Norman]

I would have bought a Che T-shirt. Of course it would have been a joke. People who know me would appreciate the humor of the sight of me in such garb. However, your customer service sucks. You have insulted me on many occasions going as far a placing a permanent mark under my avatar to discredit me with. If I was treated that way at Wal-Mart, where I do the majority of my shopping and am happy to support, I would not give them my business either.

[RedCeltic]

SN:

The only reason you would ever brag about shoping at Wall-Mart is because they are anti-union. Nobody in their right mind would brag about buying knock off brands.

[Stormin Norman]

I don't buy my clothes there. Well, maybe socks. But it is a good source of cheap plastic crap. The fact that they are anti-union is just a side benefit.

[vox]

I guess the corporate welfare is just a side-benefit, too. From Take The Rich Off Welfare:

Corporations also benefit in the area of employee insurance from tax loopholes. For example, Walmart, America's largest retailer, spends $1 billion on life insurance. Walmart encourages its workers to sign up for free benefits and even continues to pay their premiums after they leave the firm. When an employee dies, Walmart -- not the beneficiaries -- collects $60,000 and gives the heirs just 8 percent or $5,000. If the deceased is a retired worker, the beneficiaries receive only $1,000, and if the death was accidental, the heirs pocket $10,000.



It is called corporate-owned life insurance (COLI). Life insurance proceeds are tax-free. In 1994, Walmart saved $36 million in taxes, and in 1995 the firm saved $80 million. Corporations borrow money to pay the premiums from the same company which insures them. When an employee dies, Walmart uses the insurance proceeds -- less the small amount which is given to the beneficiaries -- to pay off the loans which they received from the insurance company. The tax-deductible interest is not actually paid. Walmart borrows money to cover it, and the interest on these loans is also tax deductible. Corporations, whose net income from premiums is less than $350,000 annually, are tax exempt. Those, with a net premium income of $350,000 to $2.1 billion, have to pay tax on either their investment income or their premium income, whichever is less. The rest is tax free.



Life insurance companies may deduct they entire amount which they set aside as a reserve each year. This amounts to $4 billion every year in tax loopholes. With other loopholes life insurance companies cost taxpayers approximately $7.2 billion annually.[/i]

vox

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Flambeau on 3:38 am on Nov. 22, 2002
If this is a so called " Mecca of misinformation" why do you come here?? To whine?
Web servers are not free and If this it needs donations to survive so be it, we live in a capitalist dominated world and there are some thing we can"t escape


you could move to the dprk or cuba

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Iepilei on 5:22 am on Nov. 22, 2002
well it's not easy getting by with socialist concepts when you're living in a capitalist environment. you have to sail your ears and work a wage-slave position in order to keep yourself, you know, alive.

slave wage? I am far from rich, but I have a nice place to live, a nice automobile, and plenty of resources, and I don't have to "sell my ears" to get it.

you have to work, of course, but working in a socialist system is more like slavery, as your choices are slim to none, unlike in capitalism where you are free to choose how to make your living

this is key

how do you propose that communism/socialism is not slavery? it is much closer to the definition of slavery than capitalism
but it's okay - sooner or later the cappies are going to know exactly how it feels.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 2:39 pm on Nov. 22, 2002
I don't buy my clothes there. Well, maybe socks. But it is a good source of cheap plastic crap. The fact that they are anti-union is just a side benefit.


Wal-mart is great for consumer products, and it is good for America

[Stormin Norman]

As far as the insurance issue goes. If it is initially free, how does it hurt the employee (or ex-employee). Let's get this straight. They pay nothing and in the event of their death the family gets $6000 that could be applied to funeral expenses. Who gets hurt? However, one must question the ethicacy of devising a system the enables you to profit off of other people's death's. Perhaps that is why I am not to fond of funeral directors.

[munkey soup]

Wal-mart is NOT good for America. A local Wal-mart opened where I live and basically shutout the small family owned businesses. They sell cheap products that are not made to last, it is just another pusher in the U.S.'s throw away culture. I would rather pay a little bit more money once for a pair of shoes or jeans, than buy a cheap pair every year.

I would much rather see the local business owners in my community prosper than some corporate bigwig.

[techguru]

you cant argue with indoctrinated people like this capitilist person.

see my indoctrination article http://www.damntheinternet.com

you see, us and him have different definitions of "america"...

ok so, our america is people, all people. his is wealthy people, or upper white class people. people that can work the current system and profit. fuck the poor, bums, homeless, and the rest of the "scum".

so of course in his view, wal mart, owned by the richest family in america, is great for his america.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from techguru on 8:37 pm on Nov. 22, 2002
you cant argue with indoctrinated people like this capitilist person.

see my indoctrination article http://www.damntheinternet.com

you see, us and him have different definitions of "america"...

ok so, our america is people, all people. his is wealthy people, or upper white class people. people that can work the current system and profit. fuck the poor, bums, homeless, and the rest of the "scum".

so of course in his view, wal mart, owned by the richest family in america, is great for his america.

This individual has made an assessment of my entire ideology based on my opinion of one retail store.

He has labeled me a racist and an elitist.

How analytical!

Unforunately, his assessment could not be farther from the truth.

[El Che]

Don`t worry CI, we will ensure you can continue to enjoy our company.

[vox]

SN, predictably, avoids the issue of corporate welfare entirely. That's what the post was about, after all, but not a peep about from SN.

You know, it's getting harder and harder to motivate myself to respond to him. After all, why bother, really? I don't talk to fools in real life, why should I on the Net? Indeed.

vox

[Stormin Norman]

Hey dumbass. I think I have addressed the idea of corporate welfare many times. I get a little tired of repeating myself, especially to people that I know for a fact have heard me.


(Edited by Stormin Norman at 10:15 am on Nov. 23, 2002)

[Stormin Norman]

Besides, I would ask you to do the math for me and explain exactly how this practice is costing the taxpayer $7.2 billion annually. If you are talking opportunity cost, the money the government could have made if it had taxed this revenue, that doesn't exactly equate to a subsidy. Does it? If you mean the the taxpayer could have been spared that expense if only they had taxed the insurance companies more, you are shifting the blaim. Perhaps the government should spend less and give everyone a subsidy through taxbreaks. Sounds good to me.

[Stormin Norman]

"Wal-mart is NOT good for America. A local Wal-mart opened where I live and basically shutout the small family owned businesses. They sell cheap products that are not made to last, it is just another pusher in the U.S.'s throw away culture. I would rather pay a little bit more money once for a pair of shoes or jeans, than buy a cheap pair every year.

I would much rather see the local business owners in my community prosper than some corporate bigwig"

I think this is a good example of what this thread suggests. Put your money where your mouth is.

Cry and whine, Cry and whine. I have heard about the plight of the small business owner numerous times. Tell me why should they expect to remain in business when they continue to operate using business models that have been proven to fail when put up against the 'evil juggernaut' that is Wal-Mart. Why don't they adapt? Cub foods started as a mom and pop store, but later revolutionized the grocercy industry. They started the warehouse type of supermarket that has enabled corporations to role over these cry baby small businesses today. It is that kind of ingenuity that will enable the successful business owner to effectively compete with what could be considered an overgrown bloated goliath. Someone needs to exploit the corporate drag that is inherent within large bureacratic superstores if they wish to knock them down a peg or two. Whining will get no results, thinking will. Use your size and numbers to your advantage people. Quit your *****in and do what great Americans like Sam Walden did when they built their empires.

[techguru]

great americans, that makes me laugh.

[Umoja]

Charity is a virtue, so they say. So their is nothing wrong with genuinely wanting to donate money, and their is nothing wrong with wanting to buy something. It's when the products and the money become more important then human life that their is a large problem. It's when getting things for the lowest price, becomes more important then giving the laborers their cut.

It's when these things happen that their is a problem. Money in and of itself is worthless, just like an idol, but when a person starts to worship it it has power. To support a site using the most effective system of barter isn't a problem.

[Stormin Norman]

"great americans, that makes me laugh"

Jealous non-American, now that makes me laugh.

[techguru]

actually i was born in and reside in california.

and if i wasnt what do i have to be jealous of?
working some worthless job for my entire life and dying in a rest home?

[Stormin Norman]

My mistake, ungrateful American.

[techguru]

what exactly do i have to be grateful for?

50,000 nuclear weapons?
a fucked up job market?
non-existent democratic process?
wars?
destruction of the planet?


i profit from none of these things, and neither do you. so please let me know what i should thank america for.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from techguru on 4:43 pm on Nov. 27, 2002
what exactly do i have to be grateful for?

50,000 nuclear weapons?
a fucked up job market?
non-existent democratic process?
wars?
destruction of the planet?


i profit from none of these things, and neither do you. so please let me know what i should thank america for.

LOL, you are merely spitting out sour grapes because you are unhappy with your lot in life, and are looking for a scape-goat.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from techguru on 4:02 pm on Nov. 27, 2002
actually i was born in and reside in california.

and if i wasnt what do i have to be jealous of?
working some worthless job for my entire life and dying in a rest home?
and how would that be different if you lived somewhere else?

and who says you have to live your life that way?

[techguru]

i never said i live my life "that way"

i enjoy your clever avoidance of my question, which was the main point of the post.

so please let me know what i should thank america for, since im ungrateful.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from techguru on 4:43 pm on Nov. 27, 2002
what exactly do i have to be grateful for?

50,000 nuclear weapons?
a fucked up job market?
non-existent democratic process?
wars?
destruction of the planet?


i profit from none of these things, and neither do you. so please let me know what i should thank america for.


the benefits that you receive from living in the US are so internalized by you that you don't really even notice or appreciate them

this is typical of American leftists,most who still live at home, where it is easy to play "armchair revolutionary" when you don't pay rent or bills

[Umoja]

Okay, another metaphor.

Theirs this big segragated resturant, the best in town. Well suddenly the town out-laws segregation, and you go inside and sit at a table, with your three white friends, being a token minority. Well the waiter takes the three whites orders, but ignores you. Well, your in the diner, but not dinning.

This is the same with the US Democracy, and is why many people complain when "things are already good". Sure not acting is bad, but how can you say we don't act, your at home typing a response to this post.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Umoja on 7:30 pm on Nov. 27, 2002
Okay, another metaphor.

Theirs this big segragated resturant, the best in town. Well suddenly the town out-laws segregation, and you go inside and sit at a table, with your three white friends, being a token minority. Well the waiter takes the three whites orders, but ignores you. Well, your in the diner, but not dinning.

This is the same with the US Democracy, and is why many people complain when "things are already good". Sure not acting is bad, but how can you say we don't act, your at home typing a response to this post.

although I understand the concept of your metaphor, I don't really think it is a viable comaprison to contemporary America, could you blease show me in more detail where the analogy is accurate?

[techguru]

i do pay a mortgage actually, im not living in someone elses home.

once again you have managed to avoid the question and change the subject. i find this amusing, has anyone else noticed it?

let me pose the unanswered question again.
what are these mysterious benefits that I can not see, that I should be grateful for?

if you actually decide to answer the question rather than making a generalized accusation that I live at home with mom and paying rent will somehow change my mind, and then i will discover the invisible benefits, i thank you in advance.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from techguru on 12:28 am on Nov. 28, 2002
i do pay a mortgage actually, im not living in someone elses home.

once again you have managed to avoid the question and change the subject. i find this amusing, has anyone else noticed it?

let me pose the unanswered question again.
what are these mysterious benefits that I can not see, that I should be grateful for?

if you actually decide to answer the question rather than making a generalized accusation that I live at home with mom and paying rent will somehow change my mind, and then i will discover the invisible benefits, i thank you in advance.


1) the mere fact that you can in fact speak out against the government, without fear of reprisal

2)the fact that you pay a mortgage, as a homeowner you enjoy what less than 8% of the world's citizens enjoy

3) your high standard of living

4) the rights afforded to you in the bill or rights and constitutional amendments

5)the relative safety and stability of America

6) the piece of mind that you have the freedom to do what you wish with your life

do you deny that you enjoy these benefits?

[hawarameen]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 1:18 am on Nov. 28, 2002

Quote: from techguru on 12:28 am on Nov. 28, 2002
i do pay a mortgage actually, im not living in someone elses home.

once again you have managed to avoid the question and change the subject. i find this amusing, has anyone else noticed it?

let me pose the unanswered question again.
what are these mysterious benefits that I can not see, that I should be grateful for?

if you actually decide to answer the question rather than making a generalized accusation that I live at home with mom and paying rent will somehow change my mind, and then i will discover the invisible benefits, i thank you in advance.


1) the mere fact that you can in fact speak out against the government, without fear of reprisal

2)the fact that you pay a mortgage, as a homeowner you enjoy what less than 8% of the world's citizens enjoy

3) your high standard of living

4) the rights afforded to you in the bill or rights and constitutional amendments

5)the relative safety and stability of America

6) the piece of mind that you have the freedom to do what you wish with your life

do you deny that you enjoy these benefits?

you dont get these benefits just by living in america you fool, do you seriously believe that it is only in america that you can speak out against the government? or that only in america can you be safe?

you may be living in freedom in america but it is your government and successive regimes that has taken away the freedom of many other people around the world.

your list of "benefits" can be applied to most countries around the world and i would put america last on my list of places i would like to live.

[techguru]

thanks for answering the question.

and yes i do agree.

[Umoja]

The metaphor is in response to leftist "always complaining". If your in a bad situation, even if you've gained something good, you should still seek to better your posistion and not suddenly become docile.

[redstar2000]

I'm always puzzled by people who say we should be "grateful" to abstract entities (nations) for an accident of history...being born in one place and not another.

People who move to a particular country and prosper...well, perhaps they should feel "grateful"...especially if they receive special subsidies designed to encourage their particular relocation. ("Welcome to Miami" heh, heh.)

Otherwise, it doesn't make any sense...even if that silly list had any empirical validity. A new-born infant doesn't get to choose where it lives, picking the "better" country over the "worse".

Moving to a new country is extraordinarily difficult for most people; not because they "love" their "native land" but because of sheer lack of resources. It doesn't help that most countries seem determined to keep most "foreigners" out, for reasons that can't withstand critical examination.

So, no, I don't feel "grateful" for being born an "American" any more than I feel "grateful" for being born at all. It was just something that happened. I wasn't asked my preferences AHEAD OF TIME.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 11:21 pm on Nov. 28, 2002
I'm always puzzled by people who say we should be "grateful" to abstract entities (nations) for an accident of history...being born in one place and not another.

People who move to a particular country and prosper...well, perhaps they should feel "grateful"...especially if they receive special subsidies designed to encourage their particular relocation. ("Welcome to Miami" heh, heh.)

Otherwise, it doesn't make any sense...even if that silly list had any empirical validity. A new-born infant doesn't get to choose where it lives, picking the "better" country over the "worse".

Moving to a new country is extraordinarily difficult for most people; not because they "love" their "native land" but because of sheer lack of resources. It doesn't help that most countries seem determined to keep most "foreigners" out, for reasons that can't withstand critical examination.

So, no, I don't feel "grateful" for being born an "American" any more than I feel "grateful" for being born at all. It was just something that happened. I wasn't asked my preferences AHEAD OF TIME.



this comment is a perfect example of what happens when you are born in the USA and you intrinstically internalize your lifestyle, not understanding how fortunate you are.

Redstar suggests that just because you are born in the USA, that you should not have to feel grateful, when in fact that is when you should be most grateful, being born into a nation that affords such opportunity and living standards.

It is unfortunate that some individuals are simply blind to the benefits of the US.

Should "Redstar" actually live in a nation that displays the Red Star, perhaps his attitude would change after he understands what he had in America.

However, I doubt this will actually happen.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from hawarameen on 1:34 am on Nov. 28, 2002

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 1:18 am on Nov. 28, 2002

Quote: from techguru on 12:28 am on Nov. 28, 2002
i do pay a mortgage actually, im not living in someone elses home.

once again you have managed to avoid the question and change the subject. i find this amusing, has anyone else noticed it?

let me pose the unanswered question again.
what are these mysterious benefits that I can not see, that I should be grateful for?

if you actually decide to answer the question rather than making a generalized accusation that I live at home with mom and paying rent will somehow change my mind, and then i will discover the invisible benefits, i thank you in advance.


1) the mere fact that you can in fact speak out against the government, without fear of reprisal

2)the fact that you pay a mortgage, as a homeowner you enjoy what less than 8% of the world's citizens enjoy

3) your high standard of living

4) the rights afforded to you in the bill or rights and constitutional amendments

5)the relative safety and stability of America

6) the piece of mind that you have the freedom to do what you wish with your life

do you deny that you enjoy these benefits?

you dont get these benefits just by living in america you fool, do you seriously believe that it is only in america that you can speak out against the government? or that only in america can you be safe?

you may be living in freedom in america but it is your government and successive regimes that has taken away the freedom of many other people around the world.

your list of "benefits" can be applied to most countries around the world and i would put america last on my list of places i would like to live.


OK, Hawarameen, let us discuss which nations provide the above benefits on par and with the same ease as the United States.

I am awaiting your list.

[Umoja]

I don't know about Taxes, but I could say.... Canada, England, France (except the taxes), Botswanna (but you wouldn't live in a city), Japan, Brazil (I think) and Kenya.

Speaking out against the government can lead to some bad things though. Look what happened to the Black Panther Party, where Huey P. Newton and Mark Clark were both assassinated by the government, because of political views. We all know that the FBI's COUNTERPOL was used to stop political dissendents that were thought of as communist. Also, if the country is so wonderful and free what about Rodney King? Dialo? Louima? The government is nice to you if your white, I'm not quite so sure about everyone else though. So maybe you need to step outside of your comic book world, and stop turning your head away from the signs that we do live in a heavily racist society.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Umoja on 6:03 pm on Nov. 29, 2002
I don't know about Taxes, but I could say.... Canada, England, France (except the taxes), Botswanna (but you wouldn't live in a city), Japan, Brazil (I think) and Kenya.

Speaking out against the government can lead to some bad things though. Look what happened to the Black Panther Party, where Huey P. Newton and Mark Clark were both assassinated by the government, because of political views. We all know that the FBI's COUNTERPOL was used to stop political dissendents that were thought of as communist. Also, if the country is so wonderful and free what about Rodney King? Dialo? Louima? The government is nice to you if your white, I'm not quite so sure about everyone else though. So maybe you need to step outside of your comic book world, and stop turning your head away from the signs that we do live in a heavily racist society.

Canada, england, and france? Taxes are much to heavy there to make home-ownership (or even decent living) as easy as in the US. I know that in Canada, taxes taken are over 50% of your paycheck! It is also not as easy to start a business for yourself.

Both of these drawbacks compromise freedom and opportunity

Botswana and kenya? OK, if you want to live in a war zone. Did you see what happened tat the hotel yesterday in kenya? And that is aside from the regular street-fighting that occurs in those regions every day. And your standard of living will be nothing, as there is no job market.

IMO, none of thse nations approach offering the combination of benefits that the US has.

[techguru]

it was cointelpro, just so you know.

[Capitalist Imperial]

As for the 2nd part of your post, I acknowledge our social challenges, no nation is perfect, but it is something tht we are working on, and have made great strides in since the 60's.

Rodney King was a travesty, agreed. But so was OJ Simpson. We have a lot of work to do socially, true, but I believe we are getting a little better every day. Denzel Washington, Sidney Portier, and Halle Berry ruled the Oscars this year. Bush's cabinet includes Condoleeza rice and Colin Powell as high-ranking officials. I know these are not examples of grass--roots race relations improvement, but maybe it is a start and a sign of the direction we are heading.

[American Kid]

I'm happy I live in America.

I just wish that everyone could go to the doctor when they were sick and that higher education was a little more reasonably priced.

Other than that, party on.
-ak

[Umoja]

I think the Tradjedy in Kenya yesterday, pales in comparisson to 9-11. Kenya may not have a huge job market, but they have a political freedom that many people wouldn't believe. I've seem soooo many jokes about their presidents.

Botswanna, is a "tribal" Democracy the country isn't very industrialized but that doesn't damage the education or anything.

It should also be considered that England, France and Canada are welfare states, so their taxes are higher to pay for certain guarenteed services. Like Free Health Care.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Umoja on 12:00 am on Nov. 30, 2002
I think the Tradjedy in Kenya yesterday, pales in comparisson to 9-11. Kenya may not have a huge job market, but they have a political freedom that many people wouldn't believe. I've seem soooo many jokes about their presidents.

Botswanna, is a "tribal" Democracy the country isn't very industrialized but that doesn't damage the education or anything.

It should also be considered that England, France and Canada are welfare states, so their taxes are higher to pay for certain guarenteed services. Like Free Health Care.

yes, thats true, health care and education are areas where the USA could benefit from more public investment, but it seems that welfare state-systems and high levels of freedom/opportunity oppose each other

we should also keep in mind that although access to helthcare in europe and canada is better overall, american medicine is the most advanced and SOTA, if you do have health insurance or can afford to pay straight up

[canikickit]

I don't think anything which could be descibed as a "tragedy" pales in comparison to anything.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from canikickit on 12:18 am on Nov. 30, 2002
I don't think anything which could be descibed as a "tragedy" pales in comparison to anything.

thats a good point

btw, even though sept 11th was a tragedy on a larger scale in terms of lives lost, it is proving to be an isolated incident as of yet, where in kenya such violence and instability is par for the course daily

[Umoja]

Free Health Care is liberty if everyone agrees to it.

Democracy isn't ever perfect Freedom, it's what the majority of people believe is right. So, Free Healthcare may infringe on peoples freedoms, but that is more about a statement of Democracy in general. Even if our Medicare is state of the art, it doesn't help if your a kid in Chicago who is shot, and have to bleed to death on the hospital steps because you don't have medical insurance.

In Kenya, it should be noted that the crime rate is high, but this isn't usually murder, it is usually robbery, or car theft. The only other major trajedy in Kenya in the last decade was the embassy bombing, and their view meshes more with the fact that they are being pulled into a western war. The country isn't blatantly USA, but they do have quite a bit of anomosity to Bushes policies and are quite well informed. I saw a picture, by the Kenyan Political Cartoonist Gado, with NATO, it showed all these men in suits and ties, and Bush in the center holding a rifle and dressed like a solider. It was quite funny.

[techguru]

this thread turned out to be pretty good.

[Lefty]

indeed. it started out with cap. imp. making a jab at the leftists, and it has progressed into a little less of a jab, lol. People are actually playing nice in this thread.

[Umoja]

Let me fix the playing nice.

<obscenity> CI! You <obscenity>-ing <name for capitalist> make me <obscenity>-ing sick! Find some other <obscenity>-ing <name for capitalists> to hang around! Stay the <obscenity> away from me!

[redstar2000]

"Should redstar actually live in a nation that displays the red star, perhaps his attitude would change after he understands what he had in America."

CI, you don't know how close to the bone you struck! I once DID have the chance to spend a couple of months in Cuba and, like an UTTER FOOL, returned to the United States.

I don't have many regrets in life, but THAT is one of the BIG ONES! Mistakes are not uncommon when one is young...but that was a whopper!

I see, CI, that you still maintain this mystical notion of "gratitude" for accidents of history. It seems that when ruling classes decay, they become more irrational if not downright senile...and, I guess, so do their supporters.

[Note: countries that rank equal to or above the United States in various measures of "quality of life", liberty, equality, etc., in no particular order: Canada, Iceland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Holland, Germany, Austria, France, Italy, England, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland, Australia, New Zealand. Others closing in: Japan, Spain, Greece.]

[MaxB]

Who's stupid enough to give money to this site?
Haha.
Always the same resentful/envious Commies in here.

[antieverything]

Wow...Capitalist Imperial is really suprising me! Pleasantly, that is.

[Lardlad95]

iof I had mone y I would donate but alas I'm poor...

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 4:45 pm on Nov. 30, 2002


[Note: countries that rank equal to or above the United States in various measures of "quality of life", liberty, equality, etc., in no particular order: Canada, Iceland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Holland, Germany, Austria, France, Italy, England, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland, Australia, New Zealand. Others closing in: Japan, Spain, Greece.]


I've been waiting to respond to this for weeks...

In comparinon to the United States, not one of these nations has:

1) The GDP of the US

2) As high an average household income as the US

3) all of these nations are taxed at higher percentages than the US (on income that was already lower, remember?)

4) homeownership is more easily attained in the US than any of these nations

5) so is ownership of a business

6) voting rights and representation is stronger in the US than in ay of these nations

...so, red star, what is your logic, sir?

[SentinelofDestiny]

CI Has a good point. At the moment In England you can't buy a new house unless you are a doctor or a barrister.
Lol, but my family is too poor to pay tax, so that doesn't affect me. Except VAT, which is 17.5%.

I still feel lucky to live in England though. I like having free health, free money from the government, and not being hated by obscure eastern countries. My only qualm is that Mr. Blair keeps following Mr. Bush like a sheep. But that's another issue.

[Umoja]

They have higher taxes because Health-care is free and their are other issues, but I'm to lazy to think.