How US Capitalism Really Works - The hand is quite visible

[vox]

Once again the supposedly "invisible" hand of the "free market" has been exposed, and once again the rich win while the rest of us lose.

The A-B-Cs of Crony Capitalism (http://www.commondreams.org/views02/1119-05.htm) by Arianna Huffington.

Isn't it funny how "free market" apologists are always so quick to dismiss these things, no matter how many examples are piled up? I believe that right-wingers have a religious belief in the "free market" that blinds them to the facts.

vox

[Stormin Norman]

Do you own stock in either company? I don't, and if this story is true, I won't as long as those idiots are in running the show. Bad business is bad business. The market will deal with thenm accordingly. ATT hasn't faired to well in the deregulated market, now have they? I wonder why? Is it possible that they have incomoetent management? Perhaps the stockholders ought to pay more attention and demand resignations when this sort of scandal occurs. Like all democracy, it is hard to maintain if people become unwilling to work for it.

You want good stock? Go with Medtronics Corp.

Nevermind. Huffington has convinced me now that it is time to scrap all capital markets, for a system that can not allocate resources efficiently.

[Exploited Class]

Base a whole system on what considered a bad human trait like greed, which the whole capitalist system is based on and this is the end results. You can't create whole economic system based on just on negative trait like greed and not expect the companies to become greedy.

If you build a foundation of a house really bad, everything above no matter what kind fo work you do will matter it still will be broken, because you can't compensate for the poor base at the bottom. Capitalism is just that a poor base. Everything above no matter how many rules and regulations you put into place is going to help the overall problem, the foundation.

This is just one example of this greed. Greed was wonderful for the Enron employees. Greed works great as companies try to pay people less in any way possible, temp workers, no health insurance, no paid vacations and not spending money for safety concerns unless directed to by a law. Of course these greedy bastards have more pull and legaslative powers than we do, so they win and have done so since the 30's.

Greed is that thing that makes auto companies use an equation on recalls. They know that their is a problem with their car and it can kill people (take innocent lives). They will decide if the mistake they made on their cars will kill enough people and the lawsuits from those families of the victims will outweight the cost of a recall. Greed.

Nothing is better than a downturn in the economy, that let's you cut out all those things that made your company worth working for. To extinguish worker complaints, lay em off and hire temps who don't know how it use to be. Those are the invisible hands.

[Iepilei]

actually in true-straight up capitalism the stock market wouldn't be allowed, as you're not allowed to have your money work for you.

[Umoja]

In true Capitalism one person would eventually control everything for a short time, then die opening up a gap. Even if the values were kept true, this system would persist. Their'd be no minimum wage, and the minorities of the Capitalist country would more then likely be complete slaves.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from exploitedclass on 6:13 pm on Nov. 20, 2002
Base a whole system on what considered a bad human trait like greed, which the whole capitalist system is based on and this is the end results. You can't create whole economic system based on just on negative trait like greed and not expect the companies to become greedy.

If you build a foundation of a house really bad, everything above no matter what kind fo work you do will matter it still will be broken, because you can't compensate for the poor base at the bottom. Capitalism is just that a poor base. Everything above no matter how many rules and regulations you put into place is going to help the overall problem, the foundation.

This is just one example of this greed. Greed was wonderful for the Enron employees. Greed works great as companies try to pay people less in any way possible, temp workers, no health insurance, no paid vacations and not spending money for safety concerns unless directed to by a law. Of course these greedy bastards have more pull and legaslative powers than we do, so they win and have done so since the 30's.

Greed is that thing that makes auto companies use an equation on recalls. They know that their is a problem with their car and it can kill people (take innocent lives). They will decide if the mistake they made on their cars will kill enough people and the lawsuits from those families of the victims will outweight the cost of a recall. Greed.

Nothing is better than a downturn in the economy, that let's you cut out all those things that made your company worth working for. To extinguish worker complaints, lay em off and hire temps who don't know how it use to be. Those are the invisible hands.

However, our foundation is apparently strong, as the US is the most powerful, economically viable, and most technologically advanced nation on earth.

Capitalism is not founded in greed per se. It is founded on freedom, opportunity, and supply and demand.

Often times leftists like to pick out the corrupt, greedy individuals and instances in the capitalist system and dissect them (case in point: this thread). Of course, these individuals and instances are a very small minority, and the exception, not the rule. However, as people start putting these isolated incidents under a microscope more often, their relevance and validity as representative of the entire practice of free-market captialism becomes even more heavily distorted. Yhe fact is, the vast majority of companies that practice in free-market capitalism use legitimate business practices and accounting principles to deliver goods and services to market, at cost and distribution efficiencies unattainable in a centralized economy.

BTW I happen to work for one of the "Big Three" American auto makers, and I can tell you that the "recall equation" is a grand fallacy perpetuated by Hollywood and word-of mouth urban mythology. Automakers do have equations for non-critical defects (such as a wiper blade or a window seal), but if a defect has any possibility of being life threataning, an immediate recall is issued no matter how vast or expensive.

[Lardlad95]

CI define freedom, I notie capitalist pull that out alot as if the right to manipulate people into getting you more money is freedom.

Seriously I've always wondered about why Cappies do this.

According to the oxford dictionary of philosophy Freedom is the following: Positively, freedom is a condition of liberation from social and cultural forces that are percieved as impending full of self-realization. TO become free is therefore a challenge that is only met by personal transformation.

or as the Dictionary of Philosophy and Psychology puts it: free action means action in accordance with reason, reason being thus regarded as a man's true self

or finally as the oxford English Dictionary puts it: exemption from arbitrary,despotic, or autocratic control

Now despotic is relating to a despot, and while this reffers to a physical ruler there is no "physical ruler in capitalism"

What then is the despot of capitalism...fear

Not fear as in tyranny

Fear of Poverty, ie the motivation to gain more money and not to starve to death.

So Fear has is the Capitalist Equivilent of Stalin.

Fear compile with greed makes an ironfisted clench on the minds of people under a capitalist system.

Greed for those with money or earning money, fear for those losing money or without it.

Thhe so called "competition" of capitalism is nothing more than 50% greed and 50% fear.

People under capitalism have become money's slave and fear's *****.

IE freedom isn't necassarily existent in a capitalist system.

In a tyranny the dictator rules the people

in capitalism fear does

Freedom can't exist with fear.

(Edited by Lardlad95 at 12:22 am on Nov. 21, 2002)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Very passionate words, Larlad, however, I don't find them too cohesive in making a point.

Let us discuss it.


[quote]Quote: from Lardlad95 on 12:20 am on Nov. 21, 2002
"CI define freedom, I notie capitalist pull that out alot as if the right to manipulate people into getting you more money is freedom."

Well, I never said that. Manipulation is a one-way action. In capitalism, all parties are voluntary. Anyone who allows themselves to be manipulated has only himself to blame.

"Seriously I've always wondered about why Cappies do this."

Again, we don't. Leftists mis-interpret our philosophy to fit their own agenda.

"According to the oxford dictionary of philosophy Freedom is the following: Positively, freedom is a condition of liberation from social and cultural forces that are percieved as impending full of self-realization. TO become free is therefore a challenge that is only met by personal transformation. "

OK, this is good. Howevver, you must concede that in no nation is self-realization more possible than in the United States. History itself is my proof. Since America's inception, it has yielded individuals who have benefitted the world with technology, art, and culture more than any other nation. In essence, I think you support my point here. Socialism's inherent central control makes self-actualization al but impossible.

"or as the Dictionary of Philosophy and Psychology puts it: free action means action in accordance with reason, reason being thus regarded as a man's true self"

OK

"or finally as the oxford English Dictionary puts it: exemption from arbitrary,despotic, or autocratic control "

OK

"Now despotic is relating to a despot, and while this reffers to a physical ruler there is no "physical ruler in capitalism""

No single ruler, correct.

"What then is the despot of capitalism...fear

Not fear as in tyranny

Fear of Poverty, ie the motivation to gain more money and not to starve to death."

Yes, the basic survival instinct. We all have it no matter what or politics are.

"So Fear has is the Capitalist Equivilent of Stalin."

No, because people have control of their own fear, and can and do overcome it. Stalin was a bloodthirsty dictator that individuals could not overcome.

"Fear compile with greed makes an ironfisted clench on the minds of people under a capitalist system."

not really, most americans, if asked "do you feel that you have an iron-fisted clench on your mind?" will say no, I am responsible for my own actions, and do not blame "the system" for my shortcomings.

"Greed for those with money or earning money, fear for those losing money or without it."

fear is not inherently bad, lardlad, it is one of our oldest instincts, and a great tool to help us in reasonable decision making. it is how some of us respond to fear that causes problems

"Thhe so called "competition" of capitalism is nothing more than 50% greed and 50% fear."

more like 50% personal responsibility (something leftists despise) and 50% opportunity

People under capitalism have become money's slave and fear's *****.

wrong again, sir. how can we be a slave if we have the freedom to chose how we make our $$?? No matter what system you live under, you exchange work for resources. this happens in america, china, cuba, germany, and every other nation, throughout history. Work for resources. Its just that in American capitalism, you have the choice as to how you want to work. It is in communism and socialism where you are a slave. You still have to work, but get little choice in where you work, or even live! so tell me, which offers more freedom lardlad?



"IE freedom isn't necassarily existent in a capitalist system."

when paired with democracy it does, and much more so than in a communist or socialist system

"In a tyranny the dictator rules the people

in capitalism fear does"

no it doesn't, lardlad americans are not a scared people. we are for the most part very happy, positive, and optimistic

my proof? history!

"Freedom can't exist with fear."

Yes, it can, and as a matter of fact, freedom needs fear. fear of our rights being taken away, fear of oppression, fear of taxation without representation, fear of dictatorial regimes.

It is for these and other reasons that freedom is fought for!

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 12:56 am on Nov. 21, 2002
Very passionate words, Larlad, however, I don't find them too cohesive in making a point.

Let us discuss it.


[quote]Quote: from Lardlad95 on 12:20 am on Nov. 21, 2002
"CI define freedom, I notie capitalist pull that out alot as if the right to manipulate people into getting you more money is freedom."

Well, I never said that. Manipulation is a one-way action. In capitalism, all parties are voluntary. Anyone who allows themselves to be manipulated has only himself to blame.

"Seriously I've always wondered about why Cappies do this."

Again, we don't. Leftists mis-interpret our philosophy to fit their own agenda.

"According to the oxford dictionary of philosophy Freedom is the following: Positively, freedom is a condition of liberation from social and cultural forces that are percieved as impending full of self-realization. TO become free is therefore a challenge that is only met by personal transformation. "

OK, this is good. Howevver, you must concede that in no nation is self-realization more possible than in the United States. History itself is my proof. Since America's inception, it has yielded individuals who have benefitted the world with technology, art, and culture more than any other nation. In essence, I think you support my point here. Socialism's inherent central control makes self-actualization al but impossible.

"or as the Dictionary of Philosophy and Psychology puts it: free action means action in accordance with reason, reason being thus regarded as a man's true self"

OK

"or finally as the oxford English Dictionary puts it: exemption from arbitrary,despotic, or autocratic control "

OK

"Now despotic is relating to a despot, and while this reffers to a physical ruler there is no "physical ruler in capitalism""

No single ruler, correct.

"What then is the despot of capitalism...fear

Not fear as in tyranny

Fear of Poverty, ie the motivation to gain more money and not to starve to death."

Yes, the basic survival instinct. We all have it no matter what or politics are.

"So Fear has is the Capitalist Equivilent of Stalin."

No, because people have control of their own fear, and can and do overcome it. Stalin was a bloodthirsty dictator that individuals could not overcome.

"Fear compile with greed makes an ironfisted clench on the minds of people under a capitalist system."

not really, most americans, if asked "do you feel that you have an iron-fisted clench on your mind?" will say no, I am responsible for my own actions, and do not blame "the system" for my shortcomings.

"Greed for those with money or earning money, fear for those losing money or without it."

fear is not inherently bad, lardlad, it is one of our oldest instincts, and a great tool to help us in reasonable decision making. it is how some of us respond to fear that causes problems

"Thhe so called "competition" of capitalism is nothing more than 50% greed and 50% fear."

more like 50% personal responsibility (something leftists despise) and 50% opportunity

People under capitalism have become money's slave and fear's *****.

wrong again, sir. how can we be a slave if we have the freedom to chose how we make our $$?? No matter what system you live under, you exchange work for resources. this happens in america, china, cuba, germany, and every other nation, throughout history. Work for resources. Its just that in American capitalism, you have the choice as to how you want to work. It is in communism and socialism where you are a slave. You still have to work, but get little choice in where you work, or even live! so tell me, which offers more freedom lardlad?



"IE freedom isn't necassarily existent in a capitalist system."

when paired with democracy it does, and much more so than in a communist or socialist system

"In a tyranny the dictator rules the people

in capitalism fear does"

no it doesn't, lardlad americans are not a scared people. we are for the most part very happy, positive, and optimistic

my proof? history!

"Freedom can't exist with fear."

Yes, it can, and as a matter of fact, freedom needs fear. fear of our rights being taken away, fear of oppression, fear of taxation without representation, fear of dictatorial regimes.

It is for these and other reasons that freedom is fought for!



One doesn't always allow one's self to be manipulated, pride and even common sense must take a back seat to survival.

Think about these choices.

Your entire life you have loved music and while talented you have found how hard it is to get a record deal doing the kind of music that you love. As you look for a job playing music you have gone with out work for quite some time, now your family is starving. You are faced with a decision.

1. COntinue on as you are trying to find a job doing what you love despite your family's economic problems

2. Get a dead end job that you hate and have little or no time for your music. But you will feed your family.

Obviously one will go with the second choice choosing something they hate sacrificing their own wishes for teh benefeit of their family.

Many people end up in jobs they hate because they are afraid for their families as they should be. However This fear isn't beneficiel to the individual as Capitalism is so concerned with.

I never said people shouldn't be responsible for themselves, however Individualist always seem to forget that they have moral responsibilities to others, if everyone remembers these responsibilities everything is fine.

This sin't to say that we should only be concerned with other but if everyone does their little part everything turns out fine.

the problem with capitalism is that it puts eeverything on the individual as if outside factors play no part in both development and life. Socio Economic factors play a major role in how we act and react to certain situations.

Instead of going to extreemes like capitalism one should exaimen the person and their lives, back rounds, and community instead of pushing everything on them.

Atleast one outside factor plays in on action.

"Again, we don't. Leftists mis-interpret our philosophy to fit their own agenda."

And you ours I have had many capitalist skew my words or ideology and make it seem like I"m a stalinist.

"OK, this is good. Howevver, you must concede that in no nation is self-realization more possible than in the United States. History itself is my proof. Since America's inception, it has yielded individuals who have benefitted the world with technology, art, and culture more than any other nation. In essence, I think you support my point here. Socialism's inherent central control makes self-actualization al but impossible. "


Control of industries does not directly link in any way shape or form to control of people's individuality. It isn't like some totalitarian state were everyone wears the same clothes and has the same hair cut.

And in actuallity America has no culture other than it's pop culture seeing as how no societies ever developed from an early stage in the US...except for Native american ones but seeing as how they have been literally wiped into non existence I really can't use those. America blended lots of cultures that already existed but this really isn't going for or against either of our arguements.

Actually it helps mine. America has benefeited from the past, it wasn't American culture that developed these things, they were Americans but America benefeited from teh fact that it was born later than every other nation so they already had alot of previous knowledge.
America got to take a look around before creating a society. This wasn' t the case for everywhere else. Especially Europe.

People in France didn't decide to become France one day off the tops of their heads...it just kinda happened.

The Use had a head start by seeing where other countries had already been. So In my opinion all the glory is a little played up.

youcan't over come that type of fear. Even if you are Bill fuckin Gates there is always teh possibility that the rug will be pulled from under him, ie the unstable nature of capitalism. Not saying it will hapen but anything can happen at anytime.

You can push the fear away to teh back of your mind but thats about it.

And when you say most Americans I'm wondering who you interveiwed.

You act as if outside factors play no part in life.

I will give you that in Communism you may not choose your work but in my own veiw of Socialism I wouldn't force anyone into a job, if they needed the job thats one thing but it's different to be forced into one.

What you say about America also relates to Democratic Socialism so you can't say America is more free in that sense.

Most Americans aren't happy and optimistic They are oblivious they live in the status quo and seeing as how most of them don't know what it is they see no reason to change it.

[Exploited Class]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 9:20 pm on Nov. 20, 2002

However, our foundation is apparently strong, as the US is the most powerful, economically viable, and most technologically advanced nation on earth.

Capitalism is not founded in greed per se. It is founded on freedom, opportunity, and supply and demand.

Often times leftists like to pick out the corrupt, greedy individuals and instances in the capitalist system and dissect them (case in point: this thread). Of course, these individuals and instances are a very small minority, and the exception, not the rule. However, as people start putting these isolated incidents under a microscope more often, their relevance and validity as representative of the entire practice of free-market captialism becomes even more heavily distorted. Yhe fact is, the vast majority of companies that practice in free-market capitalism use legitimate business practices and accounting principles to deliver goods and services to market, at cost and distribution efficiencies unattainable in a centralized economy.

BTW I happen to work for one of the "Big Three" American auto makers, and I can tell you that the "recall equation" is a grand fallacy perpetuated by Hollywood and word-of mouth urban mythology. Automakers do have equations for non-critical defects (such as a wiper blade or a window seal), but if a defect has any possibility of being life threataning, an immediate recall is issued no matter how vast or expensive.


Calling the foundation of your country strong on the grounds being the most powerful, economically viable, and most technologically advanced nation on earth, is near sighted at best.
First off, everybody is #1 at something every now and then and then it is over. Every great civilization was great at something till it was somebody else. To only be able to say we are the best because we excell at the following better than everybody else is narrow. I won't argue that America doesn't have many advantages over other countries in many aspects but at what costs?

Do I want to win a car race and blow up my car to do it, knowing that if I do that I won't be able to race again? But I will be #1 in this race!

Its the ends justifying the means. A better question is how did we get number one in these fields? I look at the past and see that any great achievments made by mankind, great wall of china, pyramids..ect. were done by slave labor. They accomplished great feats but at a significant human cost. We are slaves now, not the slaves of yesterday just much like the slaves in America of the 1700's weren't like the ones of the late 1800's or like the ones in rome or egypt because you have to change how you handle slaves over time. You can take away everything or give them something and make them grateful, iron hand versus the hug.

That is just a point to think about but what intrests me about our wonderful society is that although we are number 1 in these fields were is the pay offs? We have unemployment always, huge stress, we work more on average than pretty much every country minus Japan, and we have less vacation time and holidays on average than other countries. In fact instead of reducing the work load and stress of society we decided to make people cope with it through group therepy, prescription pills like Paxil and Prozac, we have a lot of crime so we spend our extra money trying to protect our valuables. What good is all this #1 country if we are too stressed out with little free time to enjoy it? We are too the point that we are giving pills to our kids because we are such a social mess to deal with them. I think your statement needs a much more closer look into it. That foundation that seems strong, is pretty weak when you take a close up look at the people living above it.

Capitalism is not founded in greed per se. It is founded on freedom, opportunity, and supply and demand.

Choice doesn't equate with freedom, freedom involves you having a voice in the choices before they are presented to you, not the freedom to chose something somebody has prepared for you. I won't say that there wasn't opportunity a while ago like pre 1930's, but that opportunity is quickly fading away with corporations. Think of how many ma and pa stores are around today versus 20 years ago. I don't even see Ma and Pa grocery stores just 7-11's and Circle K's. No private ownership of gas stations, not even dance studios we have a corporate dance studio here in our town, even mortuaries are corporate. There goes competition on our level unless we dig up a few 100 million to start a chain store.

I don't think "we leftists" are picking out a few companies and expanding on them. Capitalism is based on greed, I have had way too many conversation with capitalists that have openly said yes, because greed is the only thing you can count on in people, to hear that it is anything else. When you say we are showing off the few bad apples of the bunch I am saying we haven't been able to find all the bad apples in the bunch.

We have so far just lately in the last year, found Adelphia, Enron, World Comm, ImClone, Qwest and Tyco along with a few others. We are in the Billions of fraud, and not too mention the 10's of thousands of people that have been effected by this. I don't think we put those companies under enough of a microscope, I can't imagine what it must be like to lose your job, in a bad market because of those people. Trying to live that "american dream" with house payments and car payments and who knows what else. Kids to take care of.

I know you work for the big three, Ford to be exact. Your IP is posted on this board and it is own by ford. You can tell me what the "offical" word from Ford is when you sit in the board rooms and go out golfing with the CEO. Till then you are just pushing out and regurgating the same upstairs going downstairs propaganda.