Stalinists: Ignorant bastards - Worse liars than Goebols

[peaccenicked]

All most everybody inside and outside the international labour movement knows but them. They are like flat earthers pulling out maps and calling Gallileo niave. They do not listen to any evidence against them.
LIKE THEISTS WHO TRUST THE BIBLE.


While the rest of us has are supposed to believe that counter revolution is socialism.


How long do we have to treat these morons seriously?

[Anonymous]

uhhhhh your a evil trot!!!

how dare you to criticise our great stalinism father off all perfection!!! go to the Gullag you enemy of the people!


*sarcasm*

[peaccenicked]

Trot , trot, trot,
We do'nt want you'r evil snot.
Five, six, seven , hate.
It does not pay to alienate.
nine, ten, eleven. twelve.
Start to think for yourself.

[El Che]

Its disturbing that some people still take them seriously. The fact is that they are a thorn in the side of the Socialist movement though I believe the worst is over. They`ve done all the damage they can with their stupidity. But, mind you, thats no reason to let your guard down.

[Michael De Panama]

Damn straight!!

[Kehoe]

If Comrade Stalin is subject for criticism within this community while his supporters are suppressed and banned then this is not a truly socialist forum but is as prejudiced as those shitholes where skinheads and Klan members gather to wallow in their own excretion.Where the hell would communism be were it not for the efforts of men such as Comrade Lenin,Stalin.Mao and others?What gives these libertines claiming communism as their pledge the right to criticize men whose asses theyre not worthy to kiss?So Comrade Stalin enacted measures which he felt were necessary for the establishment and preservation of a socialist state,you havent the right to ***** about that in which you took no active part.That was a different era and desperate times in which men from necessity had to be ruthless ... their very lives depended on this.Tell me ... when was the last time you had to secure and govern a nation?If youve never been there then what the hell makes you such an authority on the matter?The reason the libertines hate Stalinists is the fact that they know Stalinists dont give a damn about their petty whinning and that in the dicisive moment a Stalinist has the balls to drop the hammer. - Karo

[Mazdak]

Thank youi kehoe. Unlike Peaccenicked, you actually make points. I could say you klie about Stalin the way the US lies about all communists.

[TheButcher]

Quote: from Kehoe on 12:34 am on Nov. 20, 2002
If Comrade Stalin is subject for criticism within this community while his supporters are suppressed and banned then this is not a truly socialist forum but is as prejudiced as those shitholes where skinheads and Klan members gather to wallow in their own excretion.Where the hell would communism be were it not for the efforts of men such as Comrade Lenin,Stalin.Mao and others?What gives these libertines claiming communism as their pledge the right to criticize men whose asses theyre not worthy to kiss?So Comrade Stalin enacted measures which he felt were necessary for the establishment and preservation of a socialist state,you havent the right to ***** about that in which you took no active part.That was a different era and desperate times in which men from necessity had to be ruthless ... their very lives depended on this.Tell me ... when was the last time you had to secure and govern a nation?If youve never been there then what the hell makes you such an authority on the matter?The reason the libertines hate Stalinists is the fact that they know Stalinists dont give a damn about their petty whinning and that in the dicisive moment a Stalinist has the balls to drop the hammer. - Karo


Comrade kehoe, well said. Thats what it is, petty whinning. El che, what socialist movement do you speak of? Do you live in the US? If you do there is no such movement in the states. The only socialist movement that will mean something is the KPRF of the Russian federation which has thousands of stalinst within it. And then you say that the stalinist are the thorn in the side of the socialist movement. THE STALINIST MAKE THE SOCIALIST MOVEMENT!

[Ymir]

You are quick to attack a dead man, Peacenikked.
I would laugh at anyone who would have been willing address him in such a way when he was in power.

[antieverything]

I would have taken him on except for the fact that HE WAS A MURDEROUS DICTATOR WHO WOULD HAVE HIS CRONIES KILL ME! What a courageous man...I'd take him on in a fist-fight, though :)

(Edited by antieverything at 4:08 am on Nov. 20, 2002)

[Iepilei]

Uncle Joe did what he could - but authoritarianism is the way of the past.

[peaccenicked]

What a pile of Sensless shit.
'Dont criticise the dead .' Hitler was .......
'I dont make a point.'
You apologising bastards never account the counter revolution activities of the Stalin mega gangster .
You lying fuckers should piss off.
You should do some real research instead of repeating Stalinist shite.

'Which Socialist movement'
Anybody outside Stalinism knows how deeply fucked you peeople are. Wake up you are going nowhere.

[El Che]

Socialist movement encompasses all those, past and present, who have fought for Socialist change. Granted that there are many divisions between Socialists but the Stalinist division is more like an abyss. The term is not sectarian but the contrary. Stalinists are no Socialists, they`re mental patients. Most who show contempt for human life are qualified as such I believe.

It doesn`t matter if I`m from the US, the Socialist movement belongs to the world.

[Dan Majerle]

Stalinists,

Do you think only way that Stalin could have avoided the downfall of th revolution was through killing 20 million people either through purges or famine? Get serious. Stalin killed who were not necessarily oppossed to the revolution but because they were oppossed to him meant that they were grouped under the category of counter-revolutionaries instead of counter-Stalinists. I do not want to defend the actions of a murderer or defend a revolution that needs to devour its children to seek survival.
Benjamin Franklin said it best when he said, "Those who give up partial liberty for stability/safety deserve neither liberty or stability/safety*"

*Forgot the actual word, i know it is one or the other.

[MEXCAN]

I don't know much about the so called "MAN OF STEEL"but i think his MOM should of let him die from Small pox!!!!Just like he let his OWN SON get murdered in a nazi camp !!!!!

[Stormin Norman]

Self hatred is a very dangerous disorder, peacedick. It would be in your best interest to come to grips with what you are and the ideology you espouse. This tired claim that Stalinism and Leninism have somehow corrupted a divine theory is nothing more than self denial by those who aim the steal and murder. Since the "dictatorship of the proletariate" has been completely 'defamed' I would advise you to abandon your ridiculous notions and find a more humanistic worldview.

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 7:04 pm on Nov. 20, 2002)

[El Che]

Unsubstanciated claims are vain and empty threats. You announce and profess but you dont follow suit. You aren`t even desering of this sort reply.

[IHP]

"I would laugh at anyone who would have been willing address him in such a way when he was in power."

This statement encompasses why we do not like the man.

--IHP

[Cassius Clay]

Erm Peacenicked does this Malte moderator actually do any 'moderating' since you can't stop swearing, get a grip man you ain't gonna convince anybody that your views are right just by shouting the loudest.

[Stormin Norman]

"Unsubstanciated claims are vain and empty threats. You announce and profess but you dont follow suit. You aren`t even desering of this sort reply." -El Che

The burden of proof is on you guys. You are the ones who claim Stalinism and Leninism have somehow corrupted a divine theory. Nothing I have read of Marx's would lead me to believe anything but what has occurred in the past is possible through the adherance of his corrupt ideology. Tell me where I am wrong; first by proving what a grand plan communism represents, then by showing exactly where Leninism and Stalinism differed from the original framework. Exactly how was Marx's 'divine' theory perverted by those who 'used his name in vain'?

[El Che]

Theres nothing divine about Marxism, at least thats my opinion but feel free to disagree. Das Kapital over the Bible though, I`ll give you that.

The value of Marx`s works is its analysis of society and its new ground braking prespective. The authoritarian Socialism of later days is completly beside the point, dont be thick. The real issue here is the Socialist prespective of Capitalist society. Democractic Socialism IS possible if the majority wishes it. Thats all we say and thats all we want. We denounce and renounce authoritarians, personaly I dislike them even more then right wingers.

Now, your claim is that there can be no Socialism except totalitarian Socialism, so dont try and duck when I ask you to prove what you can not.

[Stormin Norman]

I will accept the fact that there are differing degrees of socialism. However, I will not accept your claim that socialism can be done in a purely democratic framework. To me democracies must have protection for private property. Would you not admit that at some point someone, somewhere had to build the capital markets that the socialist countries are now in the process of plundering? How do you think the exchange took place? I hardly think that the owners of large interests handed it over to the state out of concern for the greater good. It was taken by government decree under the threat of force. Tell me, how democratic is that?

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 12:30 am on Nov. 21, 2002)

[El Che]

Look up democracy in the dictionary and tell me where its equated with private property. You can`t just go around altering term significants to your convinience, though that is very becoming of traditional right wing irrationalism. Also keep in mind that the abolition of private property is the final stage of Socialism, so not only should you not even bother with it in practical terms but you should also understand that even if we can go that far we can go a long way.

I dont know what your talking about markets being necessary to create value to be plundered. The ones who create value are the working class and only them. Non ficticious value is the exclusive property of human work, all rights reserved. Guess whos doing the work?

And finaly democracy is the tyranny of the majority and laws get inforced, such is the foundation of civilization.

[vox]

And again, I'm going to post Harrington. Stalin was not a Marxist but rather exploited the working class.

From The Twilight of Capitalism:

I will not attempt to make a documented analysis of Stalinism here. I have already done so in Socialism, and in any case I only raise the issue in terms of the Marxist misunderstanding of Marx. Let me simply summarize from my earlier study. Communism in all its existing forms (and there are obviously differences of a considerable, and even murderously antagonistic, significance among them) is a system of bureaucratic collectivism in which the state owns the means of production and a party bureaucracy owns the state by means of a totalitarian monopoly of political power. It is exploitative in the exact sense that Marx gave that term--the workers and peasants are forced to surrender a surplus to the bureaucracy; a portion of their working day is a "free" gift to the rulers.

Within this context, Marxism functions as an ideology--that is, as the very opposite of the revolutionary theory that Marx intended--as a tool for mystifying the relations of power in the minds of the masses. Marx had talked of a society in which the means of production are in the hands of the producers. For him, socialized property was the means whereby the true end of socialism, the domination of the masses over the social conditions of their existence, could be achieved. Stalinism took the form of socialized property, but filled it with a new, totalitarian content. It then stressed the formal similarity of its institutions to those proposed by Marx and cited this as the living proof that Soviet (or Chinese or whatever) Communist practice was the incarnation of Marxism.

So a doctrine that seemed quite similar to the vulgar Marxism of the Second International became functional under Communism. Stalin was the supreme scientist who deciphered the inexorable laws of history. Therefore, what he decided to do for the masses was right, even if he did it literally over their dead bodies. A typical example of this kind of thinking is found in Stalin's last essay, Economic Problems of Socialism in the USSR.

First, there is the general statement of an all-embracing dialectic to be found throughout reality: "Marxism regards laws of science--whether they be laws of natural science or of political economy--as the reflection of objective processes which take place independently of the will of man." Then comes a deduction in a characteristically nonempirical and catechetical style:

"[The Soviet government] relied on the economic laws that the relations of production must necessarily conform with the character of the productive forces. The productive forces of our country, especially in industry, were social in character, the form of ownership, on the other hand was private, capitalistic. Relying on the economic law that the relations of production must necessarily conform with the character of the productive forces, the Soviet government socialized the means of production, made them the property of the whole people, and thereby abolished the exploiting system and created socialist forms of economy."

There are a number of revealing aspects to this quotation. First of all, it implies that the Soviets made history in an utterly rational fashion. They surveyed reality, noted the appropriate law (which is supposed to operate independently of human will) and they enacted it (that is, they willed it). For a Marxist to suggest such a picture of the revolutionary process is preposterous on the face of it. Secondly, it is the Soviet government that is the agency of this transformation. The working class is not mentioned. Thirdly, Stalin does not determine that Soviet policy is socialist by examining the actual, existential conditions of the people. That, among other things, would prove to be embarrassing. Instead, he makes a scientific syllogism based on a sham law: Where the means of production are socialized, there is socialism, and the people rule; but in the Soviet Union the means of production are socialized; therefore in the Soviet Union there is socialism and the people rule. With such a methodology Stalin did not have to bother about facts or 180 degree turns in the party line. A law could be found, or invented, to justify anything the master scientist did.

vox

[Stormin Norman]

El Che,

Yeah, I guess you're right. Natural rights and civil rights have nothing to do with democracy. Take a political science course and then tell me if the definition of democracy fits a single page of a dictionary.

[Stormin Norman]

"I dont know what your talking about markets being necessary to create value to be plundered. The ones who create value are the working class and only them. Non ficticious value is the exclusive property of human work, all rights reserved. Guess whos doing the work?"

For someone who talks about cooperation being the key, you sure aren't willing to accept the fact that business owners do a lot of work to create those jobs. In most cases, much more work than the buffoon who just shows up for a paycheck. Have you heard they expression there is no I in the word team. You neglect to consider the contribution made by those you despise and whose wealth you advocate stealing.

[El Che]

Normon,

First I think u should read what vox posted, it might give u some lights.

Concerning democracy, what I understand is that you consider private property a fundamental human right. I totaly disagree with that, both because I think the "right" we speak of is not essential, not even necessary, and because you elevate it to such hieghts. But I respect your view. What you can`t do, though, is posit any kind of right, law or juridical figure as anterior to Democracy. For to do so is to throw Democracy out the window. It is not my understanding of the concept that is shallow. To adhere to Democracy is to recognise noone has the truth, it to say no to enlighted vanguards and elites. Therefore everything concering social law stands in question before Democracy. Private property too.

[antieverything]

Exactly, Norm, there is no "I" in team. There is, however, a guy who sits on the bench but takes all of the credit in capitalism.

[TheButcher]

Quote: from peaccenicked on 5:54 am on Nov. 20, 2002
.


'Which Socialist movement'
Anybody outside Stalinism knows how deeply fucked you peeople are. Wake up you are going nowhere.



LOL!!!! Like I said before there are thousands of stalinist in the KPRF and they are very close to taking russia back after the election. And then you say the stanlinist aren't going anywhere? You need to think about what you just said. As far as I see it your movement is going to shit if you live in the US. Look at you, your whinning like a little ***** on stupid ass forums. No wonder your movement doesn't get anywhere. But from the looks of things you sound like a libertarian, that explains it all!

[vox]

"Look at you, your (sic) whinning like a little ***** on stupid ass forums."

Whining like a little *****? Hmmm. The subtext here, of course, is that women are helpless, always reduced to whining about things because, unlike men, they are incapable of doing anything about it. (Tell it to Mother Jones, kid.)

Not only does the Butcher reveal himself to be a fascist (just look at his sig), but a misogynist as well. No surprise here. Right-wing authoritarianism is the province of the hateful and the stupid. I think our new friend here hits the mark on both counts.

vox

[TheButcher]

Vox, I will define ***** for you.
***** (noun)
plural *****es
:Female dog

LOL! damn, you are a smart one Vox! And how am I a fascist because of my sig? You know nothing about me to make that judgement! And I am very much a leftist on the economic side of things and right-wing on social issues.

[chamo]

people who know that im communist seem to think that being communist means im also a stalinist. they're just as ignorant as the stalinist tosseres themselves. right-wingers dont' seem to know the differnce between stalinism and communism and they somehow think im evil using the equation communism=stalinism=evil bastard. makes me sad:(

[redstar2000]

"How long do we have to treat these morons seriously?" asked Peaccenicked.

Anyone who wants to can stop now, presuming your computer keyboard has page-down and scrolling buttons--that is, DON'T read their posts, DON'T reply to anything they say, IGNORE their existence.

The other option is to block their posts--either shunting them into a segregated forum ("the Gulag Ghetto"?) or keeping them off the board altogether.

Frankly, I prefer the first option. A message board is a place where people argue. Argument MEANS that people will sometimes say ill-informed, stupid or even outrageous things. As long as they are not being racist, anti-semitic, etc., I think they should have their say. If the board becomes overwhelmed with a tide of opinion that you find repugnant, there are other boards.

I want to single out here two contributors to the board that I especially respect: Cassius Clay and bolshevik1917. The former is a stalinist, the latter a trotskyist. BOTH put in a lot of time researching the facts behind their positions; BOTH respond to argument and questions with something more than a mindless repetition of stale formulas; BOTH are learning how to be good communists. (Of course, since I have major disagreements with Leninism, I wish they would learn faster...but that's another story.) BOTH are about as far from "moronic" as anyone on the board. If THEY were banned, I would miss them.

The other folks, who as I said earlier, are not so much "stalinists" as they are "fans" of Stalin--I don't take them seriously and I don't think anyone else should get upset by them. It is WILDLY unlikely that they will ever be in any position to do any harm to a new international communist movement when it emerges. And there is always the chance, even the fairly high probability that their views will become more thoughtful with the passage of time. Che was an admirer of Stalin in his youth; so was I. We learned better--maybe they will too.

See, I think ALL the authoritarian deviations from Marxism can be overcome...in critical argument. I think THAT is the challenge in this kind of forum. Confront a poor argument with a better argument; you won't convince someone who is still a "fan" of this or that Leninist...but others who haven't decided will be reading and you have an excellent chance of convincing them.

For example, contemplate the mental landscape of some poor bastard who chooses a sig "THE STATE KNOWS BEST" (If Stormin Norman was an honest man, his sig would read THE BOSS KNOWS BEST). Which idol would YOU want to grovel in the muck for? Or would you rather refuse to kneel at all???

[vox]

Am I the only one laughing at Butcher? Hee! Can you even believe he tried the "female dog" bullshit? He sounds like a fourth grader who got caught swearing. Stand by what you say or shut your damn mouth.

I liked Kurt Vonnegut's definition of fascism, which I read in a piece where he accused Bush I of being a fascist. He defined fascism as a situation in which the rights of the government take precedence over the rights of the individual. Butcher's sig clearly states that "the state knows best." Coupled with his supportof Stalin, it's clear to see that he's no Leftist. What sort of socialism is it that demands the State be in charge of the people? What sort of socialism is it that denies political power to the proletariat? The sort that is "socialism" in name only.

Butcher admits that he's a right-winger. Now no one has to guess where he stands.

vox

[TheButcher]

Where do you think "whining like a little *****" came from? It means somebody that is whining like a little dog. So please don't tell me what I meant to say. You don't know shit about me so don't judge me, libertarian pussy. You talk your shit behind a computer, I wish I could meet you in person to put you in your place.

I don't give a fuck what Kurt's defintion of fascism is! The state is the people that the people elect and the state(people) knows best. The people are represented through the state. So yeah the state knows best. And yeah I am conservative on social issue. But very left-wing on economics, so I guess this makes me a fascist right-winger? You are as smart as a box of rocks. LOL! Your ignorance makes me laugh. And by the way I'm not a stalinist.

[vox]

"You don't know shit about me so don't judge me, libertarian pussy."

Hmmm, and I guess "pussy" is going to mean a cat, right? Your misogyny is transparent, as are your excuses.

Plus, I think you broke the record. Only two responses to me and already you're threatening violence, which, again, is no surprise coming from a right-winger. You boys can't think too well, so you prefer violence to discourse. It's funny, though, that you say "you talk your shit behind a computer" when you are the one proposing violence. Behind a computer, of course.

According to your second paragraph, the United States gov't, elected by the people, knows best. Or, wait, the French gov't is elected by the people, too, but the US and France disagree on some things. Hmmm. Okay, wait, they are both States, but they don't agree. Which state, exactly, knows best, Butcher? And, of course, in the USSR the people had no real political power, so that state must have, well, known not-best, I suppose.

Your logic needs a bit of work, son.

But then, who has ever expected fascists to be logical?

I also have to wonder just what you mean when you say you're left-wing on economic issues but conservative on social issues. Care to define that a little more, or should we just assume that you want to kill homosexuals but then have the all-knowing State pay for the funerals?

vox

[TheButcher]

Quote: from vox on 9:16 pm on Nov. 20, 2002
"You don't know shit about me so don't judge me, libertarian pussy."

Hmmm, and I guess "pussy" is going to mean a cat, right? Your misogyny is transparent, as are your excuses.

Plus, I think you broke the record. Only two responses to me and already you're threatening violence, which, again, is no surprise coming from a right-winger. You boys can't think too well, so you prefer violence to discourse. It's funny, though, that you say "you talk your shit behind a computer" when you are the one proposing violence. Behind a computer, of course.

According to your second paragraph, the United States gov't, elected by the people, knows best. Or, wait, the French gov't is elected by the people, too, but the US and France disagree on some things. Hmmm. Okay, wait, they are both States, but they don't agree. Which state, exactly, knows best, Butcher? And, of course, in the USSR the people had no real political power, so that state must have, well, known not-best, I suppose.

Your logic needs a bit of work, son.

But then, who has ever expected fascists to be logical?

I also have to wonder just what you mean when you say you're left-wing on economic issues but conservative on social issues. Care to define that a little more, or should we just assume that you want to kill homosexuals but then have the all-knowing State pay for the funerals?

vox


You can slander me by calling me a misogynist. I really don't care what you think about me. And like I said again and again you don't know me.

I'm not talking about any government you speak of. I am talking about a socailist government that would be run by the state (people). And once the Soviet Union is revived that will be the state. I know that the Soviet Union made some mistakes in the past, I will not deny that. But all countrys make mistakes. They will get it right the second time around.

I don't have time to explain my economic views but let me say this. I am not against gays nor do I want to kill them as you put it. I am a hardliner when it comes to crime and punishment, national security and when it comes to political enemies, etc.... I am authoritarian for the purpose to protect the citizens. If you don't agree with me thats your problem but don't call me a fascist because I am far from it.

[Kehoe]

It appears that the Mensheviks and libertines are the ruling majority within this community ... and were there to be a purge it would come as no surprise ... remember that where books are burned so are people,and that suppression of speech by post deletions(outlawing of opposing parties and exiled to Siberia),the banning of certain members(political executions)are the criminal acts of those Bolshevik meanies and not those of a just socialist democracy<-[extreme sarcasm].Comrade TheButcher ... why deny that youre a Stalinist?In this community were you to speak in favor of merely one aspect of Comrade Stalins policies,or refuse to join in on the collective bashing others wish to pour upon Comrade Stalin ... then in their eyes you are a Stalinist.These are mainly libertines masquerading as Communists hence their bitter objection to authority.Any true socialist knows and accepts the fact that the greatest expression of Marxist thought possible to man is the creation of a socialist state and because the libertines utterly reject statism they consider all true socialists as Stalinists.Che was a socialist->libertine definition - a Stalinist,I have long considered and shall continue to consider myself a socialist ->libertine definition - Stalinist ... and any other comrade that likewise considers himself a socialist ... well you do the math. - Karo

(Edited by Kehoe at 10:13 pm on Nov. 20, 2002)

[Ymir]

Anyone who thinks that stalinists should be blocked from posting or thrown in their own gulag section should understand that the Stalinists did not start this thread.

This thread was started by peacenikked and was a direct attack on stalinists.

[antieverything]

I really hate to say this but I agree with the Stalinists here. This is stupid. If somebody wants to refute Stalinism (which isn't hard) they should do it with a real argument, not insults.

[Kehoe]

Comrade Ymir ... the libertines view Stalinists as a threat and hinderance to their potential brainwashing of the simple and uninformed,and you said correctly that Peacedude started this thread as an attack upon Stalinists ... strange how they accuse the Bolsheviks of the very things in which they themselves take part.As for the possibility of me personally being banned ... at this point in time with the ever increasing prejudice and criticism of true communism I would consider the act of my being banned as much a disappointment as a black man would feel upon his being kicked out the Klan.Were this a truly pro-Che community it would be the anti-Stalinists themselves receiving reproof and criticism.It should be understood by all my true comrades that these libertines have found it necessary to use(employ,exploit,manipulate,etc)the image of our fallen comrade Che for the express purpose of indoctrinating the youth into their ranks and in this they are no better than those exploiting Ches image for capitalist gain,perhaps they possibly are worse in that they make use of his image in order to corrupt young minds as well as denying true communism.. ... and as for the preceding post made by Comrade antieverything ... muchos gracias ... very well put indeed. ... and I must say also that I appreciate having the ability to edit multiple times. - Karo




(Edited by Kehoe at 11:34 pm on Nov. 20, 2002)


(Edited by Kehoe at 11:41 pm on Nov. 20, 2002)


(Edited by Kehoe at 11:49 pm on Nov. 20, 2002)

[peaccenicked]

My point is that the stalinists are like SN and dont listen to arguments. They just tell lies, repeat lies they have read by Stalinists.
There is no argument: these morons must know somewhere within their extrememly limited consciousness, that they are defending the indefensible.

It is flat earthism with the inqisition. This medieval posturing might look cool to modern psychopaths but it is deeply irrational.
The Stalinists here only serve to highlight our differences
but these differences are as irreconcilible as our differences with the pro-capitalists.

I think it is the interests of the international labour movement to severe all connection with the Stalinists who have little influence anywhere but with right wing Russian nationalist and in some peasant guerilla movements.
Sooner or later, the sharpened consciousness of working class people everywhere will push the Stalinists out of the movement completely . Not to persecute them but to put them vile inhuman ideas in the dustbin of history.
We dont need to listen to Stalinist arguments.
We dont need to listen to racist or sexist abuse.
The apologists for mass murder have no place in our movement which is struggling for the moral high ground in human values, democracy that is at the core of Marx's elucidation of scientific socialism.

Che-lives should set an example and show how seriously we take these anti working class criminals.

I would like to point out that denying the Holocaust is a crime in many countries. I think this crime is on an equal footing with that of the fascists.
We should have no truck whatsoever with these people.

Let them go elsewhere.

[vox]

Antieverything,

I gave an argument against Stalinism. You will notice that NEVER, not ONCE, have any of the apologists for fascism even ATTEMPTED to reply to it.

Intellectually, one might assume that the Stalinists are as dead as their sorry leader.

vox

[Kehoe]

Peacedude ... I suggest you collect from any of my posts those statements which I have made that could remotely verify that I have expressed either racism or sexism,and I take the greatest offense that anyone would dare compare me to a shit for brains fascist.I have not nor shall I ever deny the reality of the holocaust,neither am I an apologist for mass murder.Peacedude says"Che-lives should set an example and show how seriously we take these anti working class criminals." ... wasnt this really the reason you started this Stalinists:Ignorant Bastards thread in the first place?so as to provoke the Stalinists then eliminate them now that you and your ilk have come to power as equal moderators ... I simply want you to understand(you may want to look up the word understand in a good dictionary you freakin genius)that Im not the fucking moron you wish to make Stalinists out to be! ... and by chance this post should remain and I should not ... I simply want open-minded people to realize just how incredibly close-minded you and your kind are.Peacedude the great Machiavellian ... Hitler would be proud to call one such as thou his son.Once the working class come to know you libertines and hear that you are their liberators the chances are theyre prefer their old chains,besides,were you such a great liberator you should be able to free your head from your ass.The libertines as the great hope of the working class ... that would make a cat laugh.Were the time to come for real action you whinners would be so busy debating and discussing petty issues to realize that the skinheads and neo-nazis are closing in and mean to pop you in the ass.A hungry man cannot be satisfied with empty promises ... they demand food.Continuous talking only tends to make ones jaw sore,likewise,to say in person to a man the kinda shit you spue in here would equally prove to make ones jaw sore.It doesnt cease to amaze me just how loud a coward will bark via the net,no ... theres no lack of bravery when boasting from the shadows.In the final analysis people will always choose to follow action rather than mere empty words,and if this fact frightens you then ask your mother to buy you a night-light ... theyre really quite inexpensive and should keep the boogeyman from leaping out of the closet and dragging you away to boogeyland. - Karo

[Mazdak]

Quote: from MEXCAN on 6:30 am on Nov. 20, 2002
I don't know much about the so called "MAN OF STEEL"but i think his MOM should of let him die from Small pox!!!!Just like he let his OWN SON get murdered in a nazi camp !!!!!


One pathetic moron. Stalin did not save his son because he did not feel it was right to trade a german general for his son, who was only a soldier. He viewed all his troops as "sons" and thought none worth more than any other.

[Mazdak]

Wow, this thread just proves how hypocritical the menshevik counterrevolutionary scum can be. They are advocating the "Purging" of all the stalinists, or simply ignoring them like capitalists.

Their only excuse is now is to ignore us becuase they can't debate us. Because we can more or less prove oureselves right and make them realize that what they have been thinking might be wrong, they act like children who just found out the Easter Bunny isnt real.

[redstar2000]

Comrade Kehoe, could you tell me who these "libertines" are that you are criticizing? Do you mean "libertarians"? I find the references to "libertines" quite puzzling.

[vox]

"Their only excuse is now is to ignore us becuase they can't debate us."

Mazdak, why don't you try answering the FACT that Stalin exploited the proletariat in the same way as the capitalists? Why don't you answer the FACT that Stalin was no Marxist? Why don't you answer the FACT that Stalin made it up as he went along?

Because you can't, that's why.

Your sorry and pathetic version of "socialism" is dead, and baby I'm pounding the nails in its coffin.

vox

[Kehoe]

Comrade redstar2000 ... I use the term libertines to describe those who wish to ignore the authoritarian aspect of socialist thought.The definition of libertine as found in Websters is "a man who leads an unrestrained,immoral life" ... unrestrained=irresponsible ... immoral=possessing no ethical virtue.I myself have never claimed to be a Stalinist although there may be those who choose to cast me as such ... I simply wish to be true to myself and to acknowledge the reality of communist history.There are certain aspects of Comrade Stalins rule that I find far too extreme and unnecessary for the provision of governance,I am not in complete agreement with some of Comrade Lenins ideas,Chairman Mao enacted certain programs which proved to be vastly devastating to his people,but you must remember that each and everyone of them were human ... and as you well know humans are by no means perfect.I believe that we can integrate those worthy ideas and policies which these comrades introduced while abandoning the harsh and repressive programs for which theyre known.There was only one Comrade Stalin and hes dead,and though a person may agree with a portion of Stalins doctrine this however doesnt make him a Stalinist.We are creatures of habit and are largely the products of conditioning ... but ultimately it is we ourselves who create this mass of complex ideas housed in this persona that we call a man.Our bodies are composed of innumerable cells and likewise our psyches are composed of innumerable mental impressions so that no man is strictly this or strictly that.My roaring protests as witnessed in previous posts of this thread were the result of witnessing the imbecilic attack of one human being upon other human beings simply because they choose to think and accept ideas which are not popular,if a person is so caught up in himself that he will recognize only those like himself then perhaps he should converse only with himself.This is the real world in which different people think different thoughts,its an ever-evolving world and we must evolve with it or else become extinct ... havent any of you heard of the law of dialectics? ... the process of sudden change by means of antagonistic forces ... beginning with a thesis to which is introduced an anti-thesis and from this confrontation a synthesis is reached ... until the synthesis itself becomes a thesis which comes into contact with an anti-thesis,etc, ... thus the process continuously occurs in an un-ending cycle.Comrades ... you claim to be aware of Marxs writings ... I suggest you conduct yourselves accordingly.To take a one-sided view and think that you will somehow retain an unchanging thesis is complete lunacy ... for that which does not change simply does not exist,and fundamentalism is as wrong in socialist thought as it is in the religious realm.As for the Stalinist issue ... one shouldnt bring up the subject if theyre not willing to partake in a confrontation. - Karo

[peaccenicked]

Quote: from Kehoe on 1:34 am on Nov. 21, 2002[[quote]I take the greatest offense that anyone would dare compare me to a shit for brains fascist.

You may not be particularly racist or sexist but any sane person looking at all the versions of Russian history can only come to the conclusion that Stalin was a criminal monster. Stalinists who defend mass purges and murder are not being purged on che-lives, thats the problem.
You talk of the authoritarian aspect of Marxism. ???
I think you defenders of Stalin are eejits. What crass philistinism.

Stalinist do not debate, what they do is bullshit and lie about history, and have nothing to do with the spirit of Che and Marxism which demands the rulthess criticism of everything existing.
One only needs half a brain to see through Stalinist propaganda.

[El Che]

Kehoe, I think you`re misdirecting your energies. Stalinists will not be banned and nither is this thread advocating it nore is it designed to acomplish it. Your energies would be better employed clearly outlining your ideas, especificaly in what concerns authoritarian Socialism and its merits. Stalinists are typicaly revisionists, so go there if you must (i.e can`t stand on your own 2 feet and defend your own ideas). One thing I will say though, not all authoritarians are Stalinists. Che was not. However they are all equaly in error, their ideology is dangerous and hopefuly in the process of becoming extinct. Finaly, I agree with you that dogmatism is harmful to the mind, I think you should follow your own advice though. As far as I am concerned open mindedness and [self directed] critical thinking do not translate in to submission before opposing ideas. In a word, you`re talking nonsense.

I also find it interesting that the Stalinists(or whatever), who are so sure of their beliefs, have all the arguments and are victims of irrational persecution, didn`t reply to the very serious acusations (Harrington) made against their "true comunism" and "comrade".

[new democracy]

how many threads we have with text like "stalinists are idiots" and stuff like that!? and i think we should just ignore the stalinists. look at them, they are just wannabe oppressive anti social teenagers that think they are "radical". boadicea88 and mazdak are a good example. those kids have no idea what it's like to live under stalin. i give credit to clay for being the only stalinist that don't see vlad the impaler as a hero. however, when he said that stalin was a democratic leader, i can tell him how untrue it is. as i already promised, tomorrow i will interview my grandmother on her time in the USSR, and post it. if the after that the stalinists will still support their hero, i have no idea what to do.

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from new democracy on 12:51 pm on Nov. 21, 2002
and i think we should just ignore the stalinists. look at them, they are just wannabe oppressive anti social teenagers that think they are "radical".

Amen to that. I'm not your biggest fan ND, but you've hit the nail on the head. :biggrin:

[Mazdak]

Stalin did not exploit. As was said, he did not wake up one morning and decide to become a ruthless murderer who would ruin the view of communism by most people.

He did what was necessary, he said himself that the Soviet Union was behind the rest of Europe by 150 years, he needed to make good that distance in 10. If it werent for his industrialization efforts/5 year plans, Hitler would have probably defeated the USSR.

On top of this, you all love to bash stalin claiming he wasnt marxist. Keep in mind Marx wanted the revolution to take place in an industrialized country, a country that already had gone through the brutal changes of the Industrial Revolution, Stalin's Russia hadn't. Russia was backwards, and before he could give the people "peace land and bread" he had to make his country strong enough to defend itself and the technology it needed to improve the relativly primitive farming methods. He had to turna Feudal country into a Socialist nation in only 10 years. Let's see you or any of you accomplish that kind of task without loss of life. I don't agree with pointless killing, but Stalin did not pointlessly kill.

[TheButcher]

Quote: from new democracy on 12:51 pm on Nov. 21, 2002
and i think we should just ignore the stalinists. look at them, they are just wannabe oppressive anti social teenagers that think they are "radical".

LOL!!! about 95% of the people on here are 16 years of age and younger. Its is clear most of you in these forums (not all) are going through a phase of being a communist just to piss your mommys and daddys off. Not to worry, this phase will pass you by in no time. I bet most of you don't have a job and have no idea what it is like for the working class. You have a nice middle class homes or upper class homes that you mommys and daddys pay for and then you teenagers have the nerve to type you bullshit on che-lives.com. But it's not about the working class on these forums. It's about your own personal liberal freedoms. You have no idea what it is like to come home from a hard blue-collar job. Most of you pussys aren't strong enough to lift a slug hammer and still you preach what communism is. You shouldn't be typing on the subject unless you have enough years of schooling or have actually been working a 10 hour job a day and busting your ass all day like the working class does. Until then you libertarian faggots stop *****ing and whinning about the stalinist. Fucking babys!!!

[new democracy]

i see that one of the most horrible persons in the history is now in your avatar.

"Until then you libertarian faggots stop *****ing and whinning about the stalinist."

amazing how much curse words you use.

"about 95% of the people on here are 16 years of age and younger."

that's include stalinist Mazdak(15)and boadicea88(14)........

"Most of you pussys aren't strong enough to lift a slug hammer and still you preach what communism is."

let me quote mazdak:" hate sports. Sports take the place of religion as the opium of the people. They distract us from our economic and political troubles." source: http://www.fightcapitalism.net/users/moski...lay;threadid=65 (http://www.fightcapitalism.net/users/moskitto/forum/index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=65) .

"Its is clear most of you in these forums (not all) are going through a phase of being a communist just to piss your mommys and daddys off. Not to worry, this phase will pass you by in no time."

with this one i will agree that some of the members are only doing it to piss their parents. however i saw that some of the people are true to their believes. and boadicea88(a stalinist), has told us how much she hate her mom( http://www.fightcapitalism.net/users/moski...ay;threadid=422 (http://www.fightcapitalism.net/users/moskitto/forum/index.php?board=24;action=display;threadid=422) ). i never heard her talking about workers rights or any other related stuff. look like i can find those kind of people on your side. and mazdak is admiring a men that cared only about himself and didn't gave a fuck about workers(and though stalin match that description, i am refering to vlad the impaler: http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...um=26&topic=124 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=26&topic=124) ). i think we can see a lot of those people in your side......

[Kehoe]

I wonder ... were Comrade Stalin to have had Ches physical appearance and Che to have had Comrade Stalins ... possibly we would now be members of Stalin-Lives community,isnt that really the driving force behind this cult of Che?Sure,you ll protest and say that its Ches ideas and revolutionary daring ... but its really this romantic image that has become the focus of modern enthusiam in the form of a mere petty fad and nothing more.As for the grandmama of ND ... Im sure that this dear sweet soul knows more about Stalinism because of one single day under his rule than all of us possibly could in a lifetime of reading.Were those people who promote themselves as hardline Stalinists to have had loved ones who suffered and died because of Comrade Stalins unnecessary ruthlessness I believe that they would not be as quick to defend Stalinism in a complete sense no more than neo-nazis would worship herr Hitler had their family members died in the nazi death camps.Comrade Stalin at first began to initiate economic programs and social policies by which to assist in the transition of a socialist society,then,by the 1930s Comrade Stalin had become enraptured with his cult of personality and as a result began to promote himself above the party and as with other tyrants complete paranoia had taken hold of him and he concentrated his energies towards eliminating supposed personal enemies and enacted harsh programs of repression against his people so as to secure his iron-handed rule and thus prevent any possibility of his overthrow.A chain is only as strong as its weakest link ... and in the final analysis a ruler is only as noble as his most vile act. I merely wish other comrades to know and understand that while I admire Comrade Stalins efforts in the early years this doesnt mean that I would in any way defend his actions thereafter. - Karo

[antieverything]

ND, I don't think that it is right to use what others have told us on these boards about their personal lives as a platform for launching an attack...especially not something such as a girl's relationship with her mother.

That being said...Mazdak, I don't care WHY Stalin did it. There is no excuse for murder on a massive scale. It wouldn't matter if they really were "counter-revolutionaries"...believing that you alone are right and everyone else has no right to an opinion is bad enough. Killing millions using this logic is unforgivable.

[redstar2000]

Communists do not "deny" authority or authoritarian measures per se. But such measures are to be directed AGAINST THE OLD CAPITALIST CLASS...not against the working class.

Whatever their wishes might have been, both Stalinists and Maoists directed repressive measures against the working classes in their respective countries. Whatever the quibbles over the details might be, the overwhelming evidence is clear about this.

Furthermore, in spite of power being concentrated in the hands of a small group of vanguard leaders, that concentration did not prevent the restoration of capitalism in either country.

So we have: repression directed against the working class -> failure and restoration of capitalism.

Unless one wishes to fall back on human villainy ("betrayals"), there seems to be a connection there.

Further, when one asserts the need for a dictatorship and then proceeds to define the qualifications for dictator in such a way as to exclude everyone but themselves...are we not right to be deeply suspicious of their motives? Every little Leninist party asserts that it and only it possesses the "learning", the "dedication", etc., etc. required to run the new social order. They resemble so many small start-ups desperately competing for working class support; one can only imagine what a "trade show" of such types would be like. They all believe the "winner" takes home the big prize, state power.

Compare this to what a real working class insurrection/revolution must be like? When MILLIONS of class conscious workers decide that capitalism must go...NOW. It's unlikely that anyone on this board has had the opportunity to see, feel, take part in such an event (the last one was in France in May 1968)...and none of us knows what the future will bring in our lifetimes.

But an event or series of events as AWESOME as proletarian revolution is supposed to be in the hands of and under the direction of these pipsqueaks? LOL!

I've said before and will repeat: I think Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin and Mao were sincere revolutionaries who FUCKED UP. Their present-day followers know that and do not care...because all they really want (the serious ones, not the "fans") is the opportunity to run the show for their own benefit. If they were sincere about working class power, they would be deeply critical of the measures taken by their political ancestors and of Leninism as a method of organization; their largely (if not completely) uncritical celebration of the past is a strategy of "brand recognition" to win "market share". Cynical? Sure, but if it works, we get state power. And that's not only what they want, it's ALL they really want.

I can only do so much, but whatever I can do to stop that from happening, I will.

PS: Comrade Kehoe, thanks for your clarification on the "libertines"--especially the part about leading "an immoral life". I am SO guilty of that, the details would make you blush.



(Edited by redstar2000 at 4:37 am on Nov. 22, 2002)

[Kehoe]

Comrade redstar2000 ... the aspects of your personal life are no concern of mine ... it is only when these aspects pose a threat to society that consideration is given,for a loudmouth drunkard confined to his own quarters is a threat to no one other than himself.Immoral="not in conformity with accepted principles of right and wrong(social and anti-social)behavior".I choose to make use of the term"immoral"in this social versus anti-social sense and not in the sense of religious usage, for the idea of sin and hell are merely religious means by which to set up a psychosis from which the clergy can feed and keep the neurotic in sheepish submission. - Karo

[Mazdak]

Lets see ND. My postson sports make sense. Don't tell me that sports(at least in the US) actually aren't consuming the minds of most americans. Most americans care more about who wins the world series than some mudslide killing 500 people in Nicaragua.

As for my, and b88's posts, they were in "adivce/chit chat sections." We arent robots. We actually have lives ND. We don't have to be political 100% of the time.

ND, if your mom told you she wished she had had you aborted, i dont think you would be happy with her either. So shut the fuck up.

And if you want to debate vlad, go back to the history thread. I would love to cream you again ND.

[Kehoe]

For the most part we are here to present and defend our views on various subjects and issues ... as for this constant arguing and *****ing ... if I had preferred that shit I would have remained married. - Karo

[Guest]

Quote: from peaccenicked on 12:22 am on Nov. 21, 2002
My point is that the stalinists are like SN and dont listen to arguments. They just tell lies, repeat lies they have read by Stalinists.



That doesn't sound like a fucking liberal idealist dork like you does it my fine fucking closed minded friend.

Did I ever tell you guys how much I enjoy vox's lack of intelligence on the subject of stalinism and how if you get him into a real debate, he'll resort to 'witty' insults.

Being a smartass doesn't make you smart, I really wish you'd stop putting vox on the pedestal of godly genius when all he can do argue about trivial things, like what ***** means.

I'm still surprised micheal didn't have more to say.

I really think the capitalists and stalinist joined together for a anarchist loving hippie bashing post or something, but of course malte would delete it.

[Mazdak]

I am starting to agree at this point. I don't know whats worse. An anarchist or a capitalist.

[Anonymous]

Anarchists.

[antieverything]

At least anarchists (of both persuasions) have their hearts in the right place.

[Kehoe]

hearts in the right place? ... this being left-center within the thoraxic cavity or extreme far left within the socialist sphere? ... nonetheless,an interesting thought. - Karo

[Mazdak]

lol

[man in the red suit]

Quote: from Mazdak on 8:40 pm on Nov. 24, 2002
I am starting to agree at this point. I don't know whats worse. An anarchist or a capitalist.


depends on the person.

[El Che]

Then we all agree Stalinists have more in common with Capitalists than with Socialists, good. I`m glad we had this little chat.

[peaccenicked]

Sounds the "guest is Thine Stalin".
There is no justification for Stalin's Genocide.
Thats why you are congenial liars.
You have nothing in common with marx and pay lip service to him.
The theory of "Socialism in one country" breaks from Marxism. One need only look at the betrayal of the Spanish Revolution.
History is not your great man fantasies.

[Guest]

For some of it, no, no justification, the many who died because they refused to join the farm collective was not justified. I feel stalin made a real mistake there.

But for the dissidents, trostkeyites and mensheviks I don't feel alot of sympathy for.

Stalinists don't have much in common with marx, but then again, we don't claim to be marxists, we don't believe in socialism in one country, but global socialism, global meaning, the soviet union would force its dream upon the other countries. Relying on republicans in spain who weren't socialist anyway, is stupid. Its the basic, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, prinicaple.

I really want El Che to explain why stalinists have more in common with capitalists than socialists. After all socialists are much more mild and since they're liberals, would probably make concessions to make the country more capitalist (see gorbechev).

I hate anarchists more than capitalists, because atleast capitalists are realistic enough, and don't ask for much more than the current U.S goverment is now while anarchists want total freedom, which undoubtedly would allow economic giants to come to power and inflate prices of everything. The only reason microsoft isn't doing that right now is because of GOVERMENT intervention, I'd like to see how powerful microsoft would become in this anarchist dream of theirs.

[Kehoe]

It is a most unfortunate reality in modern socialist thought that a majority it appears wish to deny the necessity of socialism in one country acting as the nucleus of socialism on a universal scale.Surely any sensible person possessing an ounce of foresight realizes that in the field of socio-political reformation there must be a reactionary element which functions as instigator,agitator and proponent of the disired change.It is foolish to think that people will one day awake and choose to hurl themselves into a revolution without any prior indoctrination or intellectual stimulus.Socialism must first be inaugurated into one country and once established this country must conduct itself as the representative of socialism in a manner so as to inspire,attract and assist other nations which are moved to embrace socialism as well.As for the concept of the great man,it has been evident from the dawn of time that certain individuals have stepped to the fore and captivated others by their sheer strength of will and daring,their charisma as it were.In the hunter-gatherer societies certain men displayed this leadership principle ... they were stronger,possessed great ability in tracking and in the kill.In the earlier civilizations people began to view such men as extraordinary and tried to reason why these men stood out above the rest to which superstition gave way to the idea that an unseen entity(God)had somehow blessed these men and granted them gifts not shared by others.I have witnessed how people will exclaim concerning those displaying talent in music and the arts,etc, by saying,"God gave them this talent".The fact that such talent does exist cannot be rightly denied nor can the aspect of men possessing extraordinary ability in the role of leadership ... and those that choose to deny this are simply liars who possibly prefer to protest due to the fact that they themselves realize their own mediocrity.Extraordinary individuals likewise realize that they themselves can never be reckoned among the herd and this I know firsthand,we are as destiny cast us to be and cannot nor will not allow the victims of mediocrity to belittle what fate has bestowed.However,such individuals constantly fluctuates on the razors edge of genius and complete madness and are equally endowed with the capacity to be either the greatest humanitarian or the most vile wretch to inhabit the earth.So comrades you are at liberty to protest and deny but no amount of this will ever change the reality of things. - Karo

[Kehoe]

(footnote) : History tends to recognize only the extraordinary. - Karo

[peaccenicked]

Kehoe. You are confusing Stalin's theory which was derived from Bukharin's of 'socialism in one country',
with the possibility of the victory of socialist forces in one country. This is a short sighted theory. It should never have been a theory. The isolation of a revolution is a remedy for the defeat for its goals.
Experience has told us that hanging on to power leads to personal dictatorship and then restoration of capitalist reactionary rule. Internationalism is an necessary for our goals to be achieved.
An islolated revolution has to do the ''che'' thing

[Cassius Clay]

'Stalin's genocide' ?????

[redstar2000]

"Extraordinary individuals realize that they can never be reckoned among the herd."

And that's the problem, isn't it? They stand above the needs and even the humanity of ordinary "mediocre" people. Things that ordinary people would deplore and condemn, like mass murder, are "historically necessary" for the extraordinary individual in pursuit of "destiny".

What do we call someone who is "not among the herd"? If we're naive, we call him "the good shepherd"; if we're realistic (or cynical like me), we call him the guy that kills and eats one of us whenever he gets hungry.

Am I brazenly denying the whole course of human history and the fundamentals of "human nature"? And not even lying about it? And even admitting my own mediocrity?

YES, to all of the above. I am a human being, not a member of a "herd". SO ARE YOU!

[peaccenicked]

Quote: from Cassius Clay on 3:55 pm on Nov. 25, 2002
'Stalin's genocide' ?????


Here clown! http://www.lemworld.com/genocide/bibliography.asp

[Guest]

We are members of the herd! And the herd comes first.

Humans are not solitary creatures, if we were we'd have never left the stone age.

[Kehoe]

I dont post in an effort to attract sympathizers nor to patronize the majority ... I state things as they exist or at best as I perceive them to be ... so people dont agree with what I have to say ... I find that of little consequence to me personally ... mine is the face I see when I look into the mirror and at the end of the day I am accountable to no man for those things which I believe and hold to be recognizable truth.So you wish to believe that there are no extraordinary individuals that stand out from the herd,then by all means believe,and while youre believing dont forget Santa,the Easter Bunny,Unicorns,gnomes,elves,alien abductions,bigfoot,etc,etc, ... were you to get through life clinging to such beliefs without the need for medication so be it and by all means chugg along happy dreamer. - Karo

[peaccenicked]

It comes to a differentiation in status.
Everybody has relative importance in their own opinion.
It is those who give no importance to disagreeing voices that do not act in the spirit of democracy.
What Stalinists do is crush dissent. I have been on the end of their bureaucratic ways and deceptions.
They also deride freedom of speech until they realise that they to can be silenced.
I am against giving free speech to stalinists on this bb,
they sould go try and spread their poison in a place where fascists are welcome.
Time and time again in real life and on this bb. Democratic socialists have to answer to the crimes of Stalinism, it is as unfair as charging a christian with the crimes of the Spanish Inquisition. Stalinism has as much a future in socialism as the Spanish Inquisition has with Christianity. It is a force which is historically spent and is ideologically redundant.
To posit Stalinism as a post revolutionary ideal is so politically backward that it only breeds astonishment that people can be so stupid.
Socialists have enough trouble with persistent bourgeios ideology, that smears socialism with stalinism
on a daily basis right through the capitalist media: without the clones from the Stalinist school of falsification adding to the confusion. These people are a tiny,tiny minority on the left in most countries and have brought racist and sexist filth to this site via the so-called brown red alliance.

They deride Marxists as libertines as if we should take that as an insult. Marx was a champion of liberty.
The Stalinists have proven that they have not read Marx for any reason but to find dirt and to misconstrue the relationship between private property and democracy, to try to imply that Marx was anti-democratic.

This is anti che lives...it is more like che dies.

[Kehoe]

Ernesto"Che"Guevara viewed the individual as a conscious cog with its own motor and characteristics whose duty it is to work for the conclusion of socialism and that in this work the individual is by no means indispensible.Che was a collectivist after the strict manner of Stalinist doctrine and declared,"One has to constantly think on behalf of masses and not on behalf of individuals.It is criminal to think of individuals because the needs of the individual become completely weakened in the face of the needs of the human conglomeration".Che believed in an egalitarian society led by a one-party state,in dedicated and selfless revolutionaries as the logical alternative to a political conscious as expressed by independent-minded,rational people who bring together collective goals and programs through democratic debate and voting,and recognized no place for democracy,individuality nor materialistic strivings.Che also believed that workers should have no part in decision-making in management of industry and that the state should not be accountable to workers through any worker councils that may be forged for such means. ... I suggest you become familar with Che before you presume to speak in a manner as to condemn Stalinism by the strength of his name ... for Che himself was very much an admirer of Comrade Stalin and were this to upset you then turn loose of Che and grab the skirt of Rosa Luxemberg or some other activist whose views you share ... for its apparent that your views are not those of Che. - Karo

[Kehoe]

(footnote) : I said that Che was an admirer of Comrade Stalin ... by this I do not wish to imply that Che was himself a Stalinist. - Karo

(Edited by Kehoe at 5:41 am on Nov. 26, 2002)


(Edited by Kehoe at 5:44 am on Nov. 26, 2002)

[El Che]

I agree. The idiocy is so extreme I find my self emotionaly affected at times, unable to give a coherent response even after calming down a bit. Its enfuriating. Its the wrong reaction and it does nothing for your credibility if you`re trying to argue against them but its just the way it is.

I think the issue of banning follows in the same line, i.e its an emotional reaction. I dont like them and I dont like them around but considering the history of the board and the precedents of what is and what is not accepted...

[peaccenicked]

,"One has to constantly think on behalf of masses and not on behalf of individuals.It is criminal to think of individuals because the needs of the individual become completely weakened in the face of the needs of the human conglomeration''

This is hardly Stalinism. It asks people to think collectively.
The needs of the many outweigh those of the few.
This debate was resolved by Star trek II and III.
Communist Manifesto.
"The free development of each is the condition for the free development of all."

Here is Che.
''The difficult thing for someone not living the experience of the revolution to understand is this close dialectical unity between the individual and the mass, in which the mass, as an aggregate of individuals, is interconnected with its leaders.''

Apparently that is something you dont understand either. Kehoe.

As to banning them I am stick to my guns but since only two of us bothered voting at one stage. It might be a dead issue.

[Stormin Norman]

Peace dick,

Your attempts to compare me with Stalinists are laughable, since you are the one who promotes the theories that lead to Stalinistic forms of government. I will agree with you on one thing. Stalinists are slime, therefore you are slime. What a pity it must be to look in the mirror and despise what you see. Perhaps your Stalinist nature could provide answers as to why you remain sympathetic to Saddam Hussien. Whatever the case, there is something wrong with you.

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 1:32 am on Nov. 27, 2002)

[suffianr]

Hye SN, you got a Psy-Ops codebook beside you or something? :)

Now, forgive little old me, but what does Saddam have to do with Stalin now? Yes, they're dictators, they murdered poor people, they have the same moustache, but beyond that? :)

[Cassius Clay]

Oh that was a good site Peacenicked, the picture of Hitler with Stalin, I must admit that one does work well, when trying to convince little kids that Stalin was evil.

Someone in this thread said how they were in despair at the stupidity going on in this thread. That would be 100% correct. Peacenicked you start these threads on how evil 'Stalinists' are but when somebody proves your points wrong, you simply call them a 'Fascist' wait a few days then start another thread.

Yet you don't reply to any of the threads which prove your 'Argument' (or rant) complete rubbish. Why don't you go to the 'We Shall Not Allow Criticism of Stalin' thread and try and call that 'Falsified version of history'.

I've got news for you, the 'Movement' doesn't need you. There has never been one Trotskyite Revolution and there never will be. The workers in Russia carry portraits of Stalin and Lenin, NOT Trotsky, they demand such things as full employment, pay on time, housing, health care, minimum wages and education for their children, NOT 'Permanent Revolution' or 'Military Discipline' in factories. The people of Albania who rose up against their Capatalist-Mafia government five years ago fought for what they had under Hoxha, which was freedom and guess who Hoxha admired the most.

[Edelweiss]

"Most of you pussys aren't strong enough to lift a slug hammer and still you preach what communism is."

This quote could easily be found in a Nazi forum with

"Most of you pussys aren't strong enough to lift a slug hammer and still you preach what National Socialism is."

So if I'm not strong I'm not worth anything and my opnion is irrelevant?? This quote alone proofs all the fascist thought you Stalin excusers have.
You are not stopping telling us that we don't know what comminism is and that we don't care about the "working class".
But in fact it's you who have forgotten what communism really is in it's final phase:
A class- and stateless solid society. In one word: freedom.
And It's shurely not a totalitarian state where I'll be killed for saying what I think. Why should any rational person want that and fight for it?

[vox]

Hey Cassius Clay (do you even know who that is?),

Have any of you fascists rebutted the argument that Stalin exploited the proletariat in the exact same way the capitalists do? I don't follow these idiot threads too closely, but I don't think anyone has.

Malte,

I was just thinking earlier today that these fascists are only one goose step away from Hitler. Alternatively, let any one of them read Ayn Rand and you'll start hearing about how great libertarianism is. They all end the same: domination of the proletariat.

Back in the days when unions were coming on in the US and Mother Jones was out organizing the workers, and their wives, these Stalinist fuckheads would have resisted the good that she was doing because she was doing it "wrong." (Actually, they probably would have been the filthy "I got mine" scabs.)

If Mussolini had been a little craftier and survived the war, I wouldn't doubt that half of these fools would be ranting about how great Il Duce was.

As it is, they support a man who took not only economic control (so much for economic liberty) but all political power from the proletariat, and they are so fucking stupid they think that's Marxism (though I've shown before that it is exactly the opposite of Marxism).

Ignore them, and hope they don't breed.

vox

[Cassius Clay]

''Hey Cassius Clay (do you even know who that is?),''

Hey Vox, yeah I do know who Cassius Clay was, his name now is Muhammad Ali.

''Have any of you fascists rebutted the argument that Stalin exploited the proletariat in the exact same way the capitalists do?''

Why because George Orwell said so? Perhaps you can answer me a question, if life was so bad under Stalin then why do a large majority of those who vote for the present day Communists in Russia happened to of grown up in the 1930's, 40's, 50's.

And you call me a Fascist? Why so, you know little about me even in terms of this board. Simple maths will tell you that Stalin exploited no one, in 1953 there were no millionaires in the USSR, by 1970's there were over 13,000. This was after a former Trotskyite had taken over the country.

''I don't follow these idiot threads too closely, but I don't think anyone has.''

Shame, you might learn something and perhaps you may not call me a Fascist.

''Malte,''

Now here is the legendary Malte I've heard so much about. Perhaps he/she could have a word with Peacenicked for his swearing and petty name calling.

''I was just thinking earlier today that these fascists are only one goose step away from Hitler.''

Well that's one step behind the Trotskyites who collaborated with the Japanese in slaughtering Chinese peasants. Oh yeah I remember now, Trotsky doesn't like peasants to much.

''Alternatively, let any one of them read Ayn Rand and you'll start hearing about how great libertarianism is. They all end the same: domination of the proletariat. Back in the days when unions were coming on in the US and Mother Jones was out organizing the workers, and their wives, these Stalinist fuckheads would have resisted the good that she was doing because she was doing it "wrong." (Actually, they probably would have been the filthy "I got mine" scabs.)''

Yeah and this logic would explain Albania in 1997 how?

''If Mussolini had been a little craftier and survived the war, I wouldn't doubt that half of these fools would be ranting about how great Il Duce was.''

Speculation, a lie and incredible lack of knowledge would explain the above. The first people to fight the Blackshirts in the street was the CP and the people who eventually killed the man were the people who died with 'Za-Stalina' on their lips.

''As it is, they support a man who took not only economic control (so much for economic liberty) but all political power from the proletariat, and they are so fucking stupid they think that's Marxism (though I've shown before that it is exactly the opposite of Marxism).''

'Economic liberty' very Capatalistic of you. If the prolertariats didn't have power then why do we see 15,000 pensioners (who were workers in Stalin's time) in Moscow alone protesting every year against Yelstin, Putin and co? Why was it workers were prepared to fight and die in the 1950's in Stalin's name?

''Ignore them, and hope they don't breed.''

There in lies the problem you see because history is on our side.

[Edelweiss]

Cassius Clay, the fact that you did't even replied to my post proofs that I'm right about your mental closeness to the Nazi's and your perverted understanding of a communist society.
Your reply to vox's post proofs it yet again that you have just the same rhetoric as a Neo-Nazi has when he is excusing Hitler. There are also still many German pensioners who don't stop telling us how great Hitler was, because there was law and order when he was in power and everybody had work.
If you are looking for people here with the same opnions about how a socialist state should be, you won't find many friends here, but Ì'm shure you'll find many like minded people at ***************. I suggest you to leave this community, and go there.
"There in lies the problem you see because history is on our side."
The only historical acievement Stalin made which someone with some moral integrity can assist is the fact that his red army defeated the hordes of Hitler. The rest is oppression, exploitation and unjustice.

[vox]

Since Cassius Clay is too stupid to understand what I'm talking about:

Once again, from The Twilight of Capitalism by Michael Harrington:

I will not attempt to make a documented analysis of Stalinism here. I have already done so in Socialism, and in any case I only raise the issue in terms of the Marxist misunderstanding of Marx. Let me simply summarize from my earlier study. Communism in all its existing forms (and there are obviously differences of a considerable, and even murderously antagonistic, significance among them) is a system of bureaucratic collectivism in which the state owns the means of production and a party bureaucracy owns the state by means of a totalitarian monopoly of political power. It is exploitative in the exact sense that Marx gave that term--the workers and peasants are forced to surrender a surplus to the bureaucracy; a portion of their working day is a "free" gift to the rulers.

Within this context, Marxism functions as an ideology--that is, as the very opposite of the revolutionary theory that Marx intended--as a tool for mystifying the relations of power in the minds of the masses. Marx had talked of a society in which the means of production are in the hands of the producers. For him, socialized property was the means whereby the true end of socialism, the domination of the masses over the social conditions of their existence, could be achieved. Stalinism took the form of socialized property, but filled it with a new, totalitarian content. It then stressed the formal similarity of its institutions to those proposed by Marx and cited this as the living proof that Soviet (or Chinese or whatever) Communist practice was the incarnation of Marxism.

So a doctrine that seemed quite similar to the vulgar Marxism of the Second International became functional under Communism. Stalin was the supreme scientist who deciphered the inexorable laws of history. Therefore, what he decided to do for the masses was right, even if he did it literally over their dead bodies. A typical example of this kind of thinking is found in Stalin's last essay, Economic Problems of Socialism in the USSR.

First, there is the general statement of an all-embracing dialectic to be found throughout reality: "Marxism regards laws of science--whether they be laws of natural science or of political economy--as the reflection of objective processes which take place independently of the will of man." Then comes a deduction in a characteristically nonempirical and catechetical style:

"[The Soviet government] relied on the economic laws that the relations of production must necessarily conform with the character of the productive forces. The productive forces of our country, especially in industry, were social in character, the form of ownership, on the other hand was private, capitalistic. Relying on the economic law that the relations of production must necessarily conform with the character of the productive forces, the Soviet government socialized the means of production, made them the property of the whole people, and thereby abolished the exploiting system and created socialist forms of economy."

There are a number of revealing aspects to this quotation. First of all, it implies that the Soviets made history in an utterly rational fashion. They surveyed reality, noted the appropriate law (which is supposed to operate independently of human will) and they enacted it (that is, they willed it). For a Marxist to suggest such a picture of the revolutionary process is preposterous on the face of it. Secondly, it is the Soviet government that is the agency of this transformation. The working class is not mentioned. Thirdly, Stalin does not determine that Soviet policy is socialist by examining the actual, existential conditions of the people. That, among other things, would prove to be embarrassing. Instead, he makes a scientific syllogism based on a sham law: Where the means of production are socialized, there is socialism, and the people rule; but in the Soviet Union the means of production are socialized; therefore in the Soviet Union there is socialism and the people rule. With such a methodology Stalin did not have to bother about facts or 180 degree turns in the party line. A law could be found, or invented, to justify anything the master scientist did.

I wasn't talking about Orwell, dolt.

As for the rest of your post, the CP may have been the first to fight the blackshirts (of course, they were some of the first to be attacked by them, too) but that's not what I was talking about at all. I'm talking about people on this board today who have the benefit of hindsight, but choose rather to be blind to the atrocity that was Stalinism.

vox

[Kehoe]

Those who define themselves as Leninists,Stalinists,Maoists,Guevarists,etc,have completely missed the mark ... a true socialist would never allow himself to be categorized much less label himself in an effort to separate himself from other socialists. - Karo

[Edelweiss]

Quote: from Kehoe on 10:49 pm on Nov. 26, 2002
Those who define themselves as Leninists,Stalinists,Maoists,Guevarists,etc,have completely missed the mark ... a true socialist would never allow himself to be categorized much less label himself in an effort to separate himself from other socialists. - Karo

Although I don't label myself either, I will always seperate myself from the Stalinists scumbags, whose goals have nothing to do with communism.

[Mazdak]

So, Malte has to resort to the good ol' habit of accusing stalinists of being nazis. The world truly does stay the same.

[Guest]

To peaccenicked's post, correct, I agree entirely with your definition entirely though I wouldn't put it in such a bad light. Individualism is capitalist! You saying its a good thing to have individuals its ignorant! Communists think about the majority and the state, not some whining minority who says, "I don't get as much money as my neighbor who does more work than me." People who support them are socialists, but they are not communists, che was a communist, not a socialist. Stalin was a communist, every succesful 'socialist' was communist! AND objective! You are not objective and if I were leading a country and you spoke as you do, I would kill you.

People like you have no objective, true, even stalin lacked it in some aspects, but he was alot better at staying on task and achieving what he wanted than any of you hippies will ever be. And if stalinism is redundant, why is it on the rise? Why are hippies becoming a even smaller minority? Maybe people see you guys are just dreamers, and dreaming is fine, as long as you remain in reality and realise how the world really is. A stalinist goverment is the closest thing you're ever going to get to true communism.

To kehoe, yeah, individuals stand out, and the GOOD individuals should be used as inspiriations and something to strive for, but we cannot slow down the masses by helping along the limping, by paying for criminals who won't reform, by paying for mentally retarded who will do nothing for anybody in their whole lives. A useful retard is fine to keep alive, as long as you're productive you should stay alive.

"So if I'm not strong I'm not worth anything and my opnion is irrelevant?? This quote alone proofs all the fascist thought you Stalin excusers have.
You are not stopping telling us that we don't know what comminism is and that we don't care about the "working class".
But in fact it's you who have forgotten what communism really is in it's final phase:
A class- and stateless solid society. In one word: freedom.
And It's shurely not a totalitarian state where I'll be killed for saying what I think. Why should any rational person want that and fight for it? "

If you're useless and weak you shouldn't have a opinion because you don't do anything to really know how it is. You aren't going to ask a baby what he thinks are you? Of course Malte, I don't think you should have an opinion that differs with mine anyway.

Communism is not freedom, communism is equality, its not goverment, its a form of economy, capitalism is freedom if you like freedom that greatly.

If you don't pay attention to this vox you fucking light weight wanna-be political who happens to have a dictionary nearby for every post, so he can educate us on the meanings of words and use 'intelligent' insults. We don't really care, you are the ones who made this topic, which has a title, insulting ENOUGH to us. Don't be such a hypocrite.

[Edelweiss]

"capitalism is freedom"
I'm shure that quote will soon be found in a sig of one of the cappies here. man, you are even more stupid than I thought, ThineStalin. At least you are now admitting that Stalinists are not liberators of the people, they are potential opressors of the people. again I ask, why should anybody with a brain fight for that?
And TS, in the real world Stalinism is not on the rise, maybe in your dream Internet world at thephora, but not in reality, you nerd.
It's dying, beacuse it has lost any relavance for todays's socialist movement. Only some tiny commie sects are still openly "confessing" to Stalin. TS, unlike you. I'm out on the streets and I see what's going in the scene, and at demo's I have noticed an increase of members in International Trotzyist groups (and I'm not a Trotzyist!), but shurely not an increase of members in any Stalinist groups.

[Kehoe]

Guest at 1:31 post ... Che was a socialist who believed in violent revolution as the only effective means of bringing about those changes which are needful to emanicipate the poor and toiling masses who suffer under an imperialist system.There is no evidence to validate any claims that Che was himself a member of the communist party although he was closely allied to the old Cuban communistic"Popular Socialist Party"and favored a republic guided by socialist leaders over a worker-controlled,democratic society.Ches revolutionary socialism was against imperialism,the capitalist system,and the version of Marxist-Leninist theory prevalent in the world at that time.Too many make the mistake of categorizing Che as a communist and a Stalinist ... he was neither!Che studied the writings of Marx,Lenin and others,he also agreed with the early policies of Comrade Stalin and select principles introduced by Chairman Mao ... however,the reality of Ches choices in socialist thought by no means solidifies his personal ideology into an iron cast of one forebearer over all others.As for this idea of only useful citizens having the right to exist,what of the elderly,the lame,the mentally deficient?... your statement,"as long as you're productive you should stay alive."Damn man ... how utterly Hitlerian of you to make such a inhumane remark!What do you propose?Gas em?During all the time Ive been a member of this community,having read many posts that I personally dont agree with,not until this moment have I felt such shame for being numbered among the human race as to witness another human say something so vile as the extermination of other human beings simply on the grounds that they for whatever acceptable reason can no longer contribute to society.Furthermore,if this is the mindset of those professing Stalinism then I vow this day to never allow myself to be considered as such.I long for the redemption,unity and equality of man,not for his degradation and destruction. - Karo

[peaccenicked]

Vox. I respect your thinking on this matter. {most matters} but ''ignore and hope'' is too much liberalism.The Stalinists who constantly deride the liberal values of Marxists should find that liberty and the advocacy of Strong man totalitarianism are incompatible. The Stalinist case is not only a pile of lies.
(It is decades since anybody of celebrity status was victim to that. I am thinking of Paul Robeson here.)

Stalinism is the obnoxious route that extreme individualists take to impose their will on others. They are worse than the cappies because they bring socialists into disrepute on almost every question.
We on che-lives should not be provide a safe haven for them as we do not do the fascists.

It is close to hypocrisy not banning their neo nazi filth from this bb. I realise it is hard to use the measures of the enemy but when you get hit, it is a good policy in most situations to hit back.

Stalinism does not deserve any acknowledgement whatsoever. Acknowledging Stalinism only proves how backward we are in the modern world. A stance against them would help to take the whole movement forward.

Anyway this is my thinking. I will leave to your scrutiny.

To digress.

SN. You advocate unthinking patriotism. If you lived in the former USSR, you would have a job an executioner.

[Cassius Clay]

Malte, you telling me that in Germany old pensioners in any number of significance go around protesting about 'The good old days' of the Third Reich. Everything that I've seen tells me the opposite, 'They don't realise what it was like' is usually a common phrase mentioned by a old German women who sees a bunch of Neo-Nutzi's marching about. And I didn't see any protests in the name of Hitler in 1948 did you?

No I won't leave this board, simply because it's a good board you've set up here and I enjoy most of the debates which go on. But I'm not going to just stay quiet when Peacenicked set's up these stupid (wouldn't be so stupid if it wasn't full of swearing, insults and generally the theory that If I shout the loudest It means I'm right) threads, somebody then doesn't agree with him/her and are renounced as 'Scumbag' or 'Fascist'. Then after a few days hey presto there's another thread.

Vox, I responded to that article in another thread in the History (I think) forum, why don't you go to the 'We Shall Not Allow Criticism of Stalin' thread. And what's this stuff about 'Neo-Nazi Rhectoric' Malte? As far as I can see I responded with FACTS and Vox just ignored everything except the Italian CP (while Trotskyites are collaborating with Japanese Fascists in slaughtering Chinese peasants, but I guess those evil 'Stalinists' deserved it) and even there just said 'That wasn't the point'.

If 'Stalinism' is such a evil how do you explain Enver Hoxha and Albania, he was voted the greatest Albanian of all time and the people in 1997 fought for what they had then which was workers democracy and freedom.

Finally a 'Stalinist' or 'Stalinism' does not exist.

'Stalinism is a theory made up by the enemies of the USSR to smear the Soviet State'.

Mikaile Gorbachev 1987.

[peaccenicked]

cassius clay. I have use strong language to emphasise just how cretinous you are. An extreme Stalinist like yourself denying the existence of Stalinism. It is like saying Macarthyism is not capitalism.
Your head is completely fucked up.

[Cassius Clay]

Yeah and Gorby was a 'Stalinist' wasn't he? 'Head Clearly Fucked Up', that would probably be a more accurate description of your dear self.

You see you aren't like these idealistic teeenagers who genuinly believe in Socialism but support Trotsky simply because they think he was cool and Stalin was evil. You've read his works and what the man said, and the mere FACT that you ignore that he supported everything from the FBI to the Imperial Japanese Army and the Gestapo as well as calling for 'Military Discipline' in the factories.

Yet you still support the man and his theories, I would call that sick. I asked Marxman a question (along with other questions which you just shouted at and he has disapeared since) perhaps you could answer me.

What is the difference between 'Permanent Revolution' and Imperialism?

[vox]

Clay,

I found your "response," though not where you said it was which makes me wonder if Stalinists can ever get anything right, and noticed that you didn't respond to it at all, really. Nowhere did you argue against the fact that the proletariat was exploited by Stalin, nowhere did you take issue with the fact that Stalin used Marxism as an ideology, nowhere did you even mention the contradictory philosophy of Stalinism. Rather, you chose to deny Stalin's murderous legacy (which is not an opinion, but historical fact), make a sweeping statement that Stalin wasn't authoritarian (though you provide no explanation as to how a stranglehold on political power isn't authoritarian) and, most humorously, you chose to take issue with an example by saying that it was only one quote, apparently not realizing that an example is used to illustrate a larger point, which had already been established.

Personally, I don't think you understand the philosophical errors of your hero, which, considering that you can't even accept the bloodshed he caused, isn't very surprising. Stalinists aren't exactly known for their intellect, but for their violence.

vox

[Stormin Norman]

"SN. You advocate unthinking patriotism. If you lived in the former USSR, you would have a job an executioner."

Could you give me an example of this unthinking patriotism that you mention? In fact, my patriotism is the result of analyzing and comparing the our system in the United States to those of other nations throughout history. I back my country because it would truly be a pity if it fell prey to those ravenous vultures like yourself or the Islamic fundamentalists. If you were living in a socialist country whose goal was to achieve the economic policy you endorse, would you hold that nation in high regard? Would you support the defense of your dream society? Would you become a patriot to protect your grotesque ideology, peacenicked?

[vox]

From Socialism From Below by David McNally, Chapter six:

"By 1920, the very face of Russia had changed. Workers' democracy, in the meaningful sense of the term, had disappeared--as had most of the working class through death or retreat to the countryside. In many cases elections to the soviets ceased. The Bolshevik Party remained alone in power confronted by a country that was slowly dying. In the early 1920s, this ruling party divided into a series of factions, each with a different view as to how society should be governed and socialism constructed. While many individuals crossed back and forth between the contending factions, a few years after Lenin's death in 1924 (he had been sick and largely incapacitated since 1922) there were two dominant points of view.

"Grouped around Joseph Stalin were those forces that represented the rising Soviet bureaucracy. Stalin's group argued that the Russian government should go about the task of building 'socialism in one country'. For this group, 'socialism' lost all foundation in organs of workers' democracy, soviets, and the international economy of abundance. They came increasingly to identify socialism with a bureaucratic monopoly of power which allowed no place for organs of mass democracy. Further, they began to define socialism as a state-controlled and planned economy which would industrialise backward Russia on the basis of ruthless labour discipline and starvation wages.

"Grouped around Leon Trotsky were the forces known as the 'Left Opposition'. At the urging of Lenin before he died, Trotsky had started to oppose many of Stalin's policies. By the mid-1920s, the programme of the Left Opposition had two central planks. First, democracy had to be re-established in the Bolshevik party and in the mass organisations such as the trade unions and the soviets. Secondly, the Soviet government had to abandon all such retrograde notions as socialism in one country-- which identified socialism with an impoverished and bureaucratically- dominated society--in favour of a revolutionary and internationalist perspective that understood that Russia's salvation lay in the spread of revolution abroad.

"By 1927 the debate was over. Trotsky's revolutionary perspective fell on deaf ears. The working class, to the extent that it still existed, was hungry and demoralised. It remained largely indifferent to the rallying cry of the Left Opposition. Meanwhile hundreds of thousands of careerist elements had joined the Bolshevik party. Many of these were former Czarist officials who foresaw the possibility of state employment if they announced themselves 'communists'. With the Bolshevik party dominated now by such elements (200,000 original communists had died during the Civil War), Stalin's victory was assured. In November of 1927, Trotsky was expelled from the Bolshevik party.

"At that point, Stalin undertook to reshape the entire nature and direction of Russian society. This 'reshaping' had three main aspects: the elimination of all dissent; the liquidation of all forms of democracy and of working class organisation; the slashing of the living standards of the working class and the physical annihilation of millions of peasants. The purpose of these policies was to transfer economic resources from fulfilling the consumption needs of human beings to the building of a massive industrial/military complex that could compete on the same footing as western capitalism.

"The elimination of dissent began with expulsions from the Bolshevik party in 1927. Then came sweeping arrests. In the mid-1930s a wave of 'show trials' led to the slaughter of the original Bolshevik leaders of the revolution. But the most astounding and gruesome form of repression came in the slave labour camps. By 1931, two million people had found their way into these camps. By 1933, the figure was five million. In 1942 it reached a staggering 15 million.

"The destruction of the remnants of workers' democracy proceeded apace. Strikes were outlawed in 1928. After 1930 workers were no longer allowed to change jobs without state permission. Trade unions were reduced to bureaucratic playthings controlled by the state. Other democratic reforms of the revolution were buried. Access to divorce was severely curtailed. Abortion was made illegal. Homosexuality, made legal with the revolution, was once again made a criminal offence. A regime of police terror prevailed.

"In 1929, the first Five-Year Plan was introduced. The aim Stalin announced, was to 'catch up and overtake' the West. In order to take control of food production, several million peasants were slaughtered. In the towns, workers' wages were cut in half between 1930 and 1937. A rate of growth of 40 per cent was declared. Such a growth rate could only be achieved through ruthless exploitation of the working class--by forcing workers to produce more and more output for lower and lower wages. "

Ah yes, the wonders of Stalinst "socialism," where the workers get to work for the good of the ruling party rather than the ruling class. Wonderful, isn't it? In capitalist nations, the Left sees attacks on workers' rights as symptomatic of the ruling class' desire to maintain its position of privilege, but the Stalinists would have us believe that in Russia this violation of workers' rights was really to benefit the workers. Hmmm. Somehow, I'm not buying it.

vox

[peaccenicked]

SN.Strange Coincidence the country you love the most
is the one you live in. I like Scotland it has a good history in cultural and industrial achievement. I dont like Islamic fundamentalism but Islam is not fundamentalism neither is christianity, but I would live in France or Ireland if I had the money to support such a move.
The gun laws in the USA frighten me, I would not visit it.

Clay.
I am not uncritical of Trotsky. It is funny how you believe all the lies of stalinism though. Does the possibility that You are spreading Stalinist lies ever enter your head. Do you ever check your information.
What in hell in Trotsky's permenant revolution is there imperialist thought.
provide quotes.

[Stormin Norman]

"The gun laws in the USA frighten me, I would not visit it"

You pussy. I have only had a gun pulled on me once or twice in my life.

Yeah, I was lucky enough to have been born in this great nation, the leader of the world. However, if I had been born somewhere else, I would still aspire to immigrate to the United States. It is the greatest nation on earth.

[peaccenicked]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 3:25 pm on Nov. 27, 2002
I have only had a gun pulled on me once or twice in my life.

Yeah, I was lucky enough to have been born in this great nation, the leader of the world. However, if I had been born somewhere else, I would still aspire to immigrate to the United States. It is the greatest nation on earth.


And you want an example of unthinking patriotism.
LMAO

[Ymir]

THIS IS INANE SLANDER!

Peacenikked said that
"Stalinism is the obnoxious route that extreme individualists take to impose their will on others. They are worse than the cappies because they bring socialists into disrepute on almost every question."

Peacenikked am I wrong or did you start this thread titled "Stalinists: Ignorant Bastards". YOU ARE THE PROVOCATEUR! You divide the movement and destroy any possible solidarity! It is your kind that we should ban from the forum! Your defense of the failure of your own ideologies is to blame Comrade Stalin and anyone who agreed with him! You are nothing more than a group of rabid Kruschevites!

[peaccenicked]

YMIR.
There can be no solidarity with Stalinists. How can you with people who have no problewms wih the crushing of all dissent. Kruschev was the Leader of The battle of Stalinigrad but he {like gorbachev}has no record in restoring workers democracy. What's the matter? You dont like his speech denouncing Stalin.

[Ymir]

To alienate communists is to destroy communism.

[Edelweiss]

CC, I'm German and I think I know a bit better what's happening here than you. Of course there are the ones who say "'They don't realise what it was like" (I'm shure they are also existing in Russia!) but there are also the ones who never quitted it to be a Nazi, and who are marching on the streets with the NPD, or who are cheering to the neo-Nazi's openly or in secret. The phenemenon is the same as in Russia. And in many cases it can better be explained with a romantisized, disorted view of the past, than with rational, political reasons. And btw, there weren't any protests in the name of Hitler in 1948, no, maybe it's because much of the old Nazi elites were embedded into the ew German state. Besides, there were already large SS veteran meetings in the early fifties.
And when I accused you of using Nazi rhetoric, I didn't meant that you are not responding with facts, I meant that you are using the same arguments that a neo-nazi uses to defend Hitler, Hitler was supported by a majority of the German people and was even democaticly elected. Was Hitler good for the people because of that? Of course not.

[Kehoe]

Comrade Stalin is dead and Stalinism is a myth.I myself refuse to deny the need for government,the state and the laws by which it governs.Power creates law,not law power,for law only exists insofar as it is enforced.A law without force is no law and a state without law is no state.A good leader makes himself an instrument of the law,a tyrant makes the law an instrument of himself.Elites will always manipulate society,power merely shifting from one set of rulers to another.When a ruling-class becomes inadequate,frivolous or bored,loses confidence in itself and its myths,and becomes irresolute in displaying necessary force new elites are bound to take over.A traffic light is employed for the regulation of traffic-flow,not as a means to frustrate drivers that may be in a hurry.Thieves tend to despise laws against stealing whereas honest people do not perceive such laws as being restrictive.A person may choose to leap from atop a five-story building,at the top the choice is yours,once you reach the bottom the decision is that of the law of gravity.A high-voltage warning is not meant to infringe upon your personal rights and choices but to preserve your life.In these things I simply recognize the validity of the state and its laws and the ever-present need for their existence.I have read far too many philosophies and have integrated various forms of thought insomuch that I can never rightly be categorized in a strict sense of being either this or that in the way of isms,and for this reason I no longer wish to partake in this ideological game of name-calling and finger-pointing ... I am simply a man and nothing more ... as for all the meaningless chatter ... you can have it. - Karo

[Cassius Clay]

Vox, don't be so petty 'Which makes me think you Stalinist's can't get anything right', did you not see the part where I said 'I think' it might be there? I'll admit though that my response wasn't the best but neither does it change the FACT that all that article depends on is the theory that Stalin was 'Authoritarian' which in my opinion is wrong (eagerly awaiting the inevitable abuse, but that's all it is abuse backed up by nothing). Also it has the totally stupid claim that because one paragraph out of a entire work ('Economic problems facing the Soviet Union') does not mention the 'Working class' than that makes Stalin a Tyrant.

I'll tell you what Vox, you respond to atleast some of the threads in the History/Theory forums and I'll try to come up with a better response to your article's.

Peacenicked, have you been watching to much of Enemy at the Gates? Khruschev leader at Stalingrad, just like the WW1 style charge (in the middle of a city, LOL) and the only machine gun (please even Stalin's most harsh critics acknowledge that the Soviet Union had incredible production ability) being used on their own troops.

The question still stands how is the theory of 'Permanent Revolution' any different from Imperialism? North Korea has been in a permanent state of war (which is what Trotsky wanted) for the last 50 years, guess what they just embraced Capatalism. The Red Army invading Afghanistan sure did turn the local populace into allies (insert sarcasm), so what is different from what the Red Army did in 1979 and what Trotsky wanted to do in 1924?

Malte, I'm sure you know more about it than I do, meant no offence. My understanding is that the vast majority of the far-right in Germany are young skinheads (mostly from former East?) who are angry at the percieved 'Invasion' of immirgrants. The few documantaries I've seen on the subject showed old people literally saying 'They Don't realise what it was like'.

Never the less, the Nazis do not make up the main opposition to the government in parliament, my understanding is they can't even get the minimum 5%. Unlike the KPRF (whom I'm no fan of) in Russia. If the generation that grew up under Hitler today wen't around every April 20th with portraits of the man then I'm sure I would of heard of it. And as far as I know there were never any protests by young Ayrians who were prepared to lay down their lifes in order to fight for what Hitler represented. Unlike the uprising by peasants and workers in Albania five years ago, or the mass workers protests throughout the Soviet Union (commonly among other republics than Russia, which means 'Stalin's Great Russian Chavaniusm' is wrong) against Khruschev's attack on Stalin.

Other points. Once again there is no such thing as 'Stalinism', hell even Gorby admits that. Apart from a few crazy young skinheads in Russia no 'workers' (National-Bolseviks= fascists and ultra-leftists) party call's itself 'Stalinist'.

Fact. Trotsky and his united opposition got just 6000 votes out of 725,000 votes cast. Now this tells me the party (made up of workers particularly at this point) voted against Trotsky's theories and policies.

Fact. In USSR at Stalin's death there were no millionaires in USSR, by the 1970's there were over 13,000, and those were just the official ones. This was after a former Trotskyite had taken over the party. Ask yourself who fought against the beurcracy and who embraced it? Actually don't do that since your answer will likely be 'Stalin evil beurcrat'.

Fact. Some 799,445 people died in the Soviet prison system from the early 1930's to 1953, this was for all reasons (crucial one being lack of modern medicines, when penicilian introduced in late 40's death rate dramatically falls) including execution. At no time was there any more than 2.4% (that's the highest number, which was around 1947 likely caused by poverty from war which inevitably leads to more people turning to crime) of the population in jail, America has 2.9%.

Fact. The Death penalty was abolished in the Soivet Union between 1946 and 1950. That's some mass murdering dictator you got there, especially one who writes a constitution which guarrentee's freedom of speech. And the likes of Pavlov, Kollantai, Gorky and Bakhurin (bought to trial for totally different reason) all take advantage of that.

[TheButcher]

Cassius clay, you pose a great arguement, with all the facts to support stalin. People don't have a understanding about stalin or stalinism. They sit in class and buy into the false american propaganda about stalin and the soviet union. People who don't understand things are quick to criticize, it is clear that most people do this on these forums.

[Cassius Clay]

Propaganda which began way back in a small Munich Jail in the 1920's.

[vox]

"Also it has the totally stupid claim that because one paragraph out of a entire work ('Economic problems facing the Soviet Union') does not mention the 'Working class' than that makes Stalin a Tyrant."

Actually, here's the relevant portion:

First of all, it implies that the Soviets made history in an utterly rational fashion. They surveyed reality, noted the appropriate law (which is supposed to operate independently of human will) and they enacted it (that is, they willed it). For a Marxist to suggest such a picture of the revolutionary process is preposterous on the face of it. Secondly, it is the Soviet government that is the agency of this transformation. The working class is not mentioned. Thirdly, Stalin does not determine that Soviet policy is socialist by examining the actual, existential conditions of the people. That, among other things, would prove to be embarrassing. Instead, he makes a scientific syllogism based on a sham law: Where the means of production are socialized, there is socialism, and the people rule; but in the Soviet Union the means of production are socialized; therefore in the Soviet Union there is socialism and the people rule.

What it says is that Stalin assumed the State to be the agent of change rather than the working class. Now, the Stalinists would have us believe that the People were in control of the State, but that's not true at all, for the Party had complete political power. As was pointed out previously, in this context Marxism functions as an ideology rather than a revolutionary theory, the exact opposite of what Marx intended. It's not that "one paragraph" didn't mention the working class, it's that Stalin did not believe, counter to everything in Marx, that the proletariat was even necessary to the establishment of socialism.

Somehow we're supposed to think that in a society where a single Party controls all of the economic and political power, and a single man controls the Party, that man is not a tyrant, is not authoritarian. Anyone can see how obviously ludicrous such a belief would be, anyone, that is, but the deluded, but the Stalinists.

But I love this bit:

"I'll tell you what Vox, you respond to atleast some of the threads in the History/Theory forums and I'll try to come up with a better response to your article's."

Hee! See how everything is dependent upon me? The Stalinists have been torn to shreds historically and philosophically. They've not a leg left to stand on, but it's all about me, all about vox. What absolute, and cowardly, rubbish! It's truly laughable.

And still, of course, nothing is mentioned about Stalin exploiting the working class in the exact way Marx said the capitalist does. Not a peep about that. Such things must be too difficult for the liars to even attempt to explain away.

So we have purges, intentional starvation, oppression of speech, thought and livelihood without the free development of anyone, and the Stalinists say that Stalin was faithful to Marx.

Why do I think that the only Marx they know is Groucho?

vox

[El Che]

I loved that bit too. Thorough ass whooping, vox.

[Cassius Clay]

Selective quoting appears to be a common characteristic among you Trotskyites, whether it be Peacenicked or Mr Harrington. Once again what that article rely's on is the theory that because from one paragraph out of a entire work doesn't mention the working class then Stalin is a Tyrant.

'Stalin exploited the workers as much as the Capatalists', just because you repeat this enough times and shout loud doesn't make it true. Fact. Workers had the power under Stalin to criticise the bosses and party officials, try reading some of their memoirs. They dreaded every meeting they had with the workers, for fear of being sacked.

This is compared to Trotsky's 'Labor Armies' scheme. Now I wonder which one sounds more like the 'workers paradise'.

''Hee! See how everything is dependent upon me? The Stalinists have been torn to shreds historically and philosophically. They've not a leg left to stand on, but it's all about me, all about vox. What absolute, and cowardly, rubbish! It's truly laughable.''

No what's truly laughable is that you totally ignore the points I've made and just go onto the bits where you think you come of better. That's fair enough since this place is for debate but take the rough with the smooth.

''So we have purges,''

No we don't. We have a way of dealing with people whom have been given dozens of changes and been forgiven numerous times and are still prepared to sell their nation out to German Nazism just for their lust for power, power which had been taken away from them when the people voted for Stalin and not them. And even then they are entitled to a perfectly fair trial.

''intentional starvation''

Been reading to much of Robert Conquest? I don't hear you screaming at the British or American governemnts considering there were famines in India and the Midwest that precise same year. The Volga Famine of 1921 was that 'Intentional' too?

''oppression of speech,''

Kollantai, Gorky, Pavlov etc, etc. Constitution which guarentte's freedom of speech, described as 'Most Democratic in the world'.

''thought and livelihood without the free development of anyone, and the Stalinists say that Stalin was faithful to Marx.''

'Stalinists' still stuck with that word aren't you? Do you wan't me to quote Gorbachev again?

Now then since you won't go the thread, the thread will come to you. Why don't you all try and call this 'Stalinist falsification of history'?

'We shall not allow criticism of Stalin'
The Incidents in Georgia, March 1956

The Third anniversary of Stalin's death was observed in Tbilisi and some other cities of Georgia and mass demonstrations were held. The demonstration in defence of Stalin was provoked by the rumours regarding Khrushchev's speech on the cult of personality, which was read at the closed session of the XXth Congress of the CPSU on 25th of February, 1956. Force was eventually used to disperse the demonstrations. The number of casualties is not known exactly. The letter of the correspondent of the newspaper Trud, Mr. Statnikov is an eyewitness's account.

Confidential letter

To
The Chief Editor Trud


Com. Burkov.

I am sending you copies of two documents: The Appeal of the Georgian Communist Party and the Central Committee of the LKSM of Georgia and the Order of the commanding officer of the Tbilisi garrison.

The Appeal and the Order were relayed (day and night) on the radio all the 24 hours at regular intervals of 15-20 minutes in the Georgian and Russian languages. The Order was pasted all over the town on the 10th of March already.

The very contents of these documents demand serious thinking on our part.

So what happened after all in the Georgian capital?

Why was the Order regarding military patrolling necessary?

I will attempt to provide answers to all these questions in detail i.e. in this secret information I would attempt to depict the events to which either I was an eyewitness or about which I came to know through reliable sources (the eyewitness accounts of communists and press persons).

In order to be consistent I would depict the events in their chronological order.

So on the 5th of March I was near the Palace of Labour (I was on my way to the press centre), when suddenly I heard continuous car sirens (these are prohibited by traffic rules) and subsequently a large group of people appeared around the corner of the street. These were students (about 120-150 in number) marching with their heads uncovered. They were moving in the middle of the street. The front row was carrying portraits of Stalin and wreaths. The organisers were requesting the people standing on the footpaths to uncover their heads as a mark of their respect for Stalin. Every now and then someone from the procession would come out and ask the drivers of the stranded vehicles to blow their car sirens. This day witnessed similar processions in other parts of the city. All of them converged towards the monument to Stalin to lay wreaths.

On the second day the same events were repeated but now in a more organised manner. The number of the people increased, specially towards noon when classes at the colleges get over. Now Lenin's portraits were also being carried in addition to those of Stalin. Red flags adorned with black mourning ribbons also appeared.

On this day at 4 o'clock, a meeting was held in which I was also present. Leading officials of the ministries, newspapers and journals - in all about 70-80 persons - were invited to this meeting. The meeting was inaugurated by the First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Georgian Communist Party, Comrade Mzhavanadze. In his very short speech he appealed to all those gathered in the room to work for the practical implementation of the decisions of the XXth Congress of the Party. He informed us that he will acquaint us with the letter of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union 'Regarding the Cult of Personality'. Then he left and his place was taken up by Com. Mchedlishvili, Secretary of the Central Committee.

After the reading of this document we were told that all the communists and the youth league members will be acquainted with the contents of this document. Nobody asked any questions and the session came to an end.

On the 7th of March, the students of the Stalin University, after having suspended their classes came out in the streets of the city. They were supported by the students from the Institute of Agriculture, Polytechnical Institute and other institutions (there are 19 of these in Tbilisi). Students from schools joined the college-going students. It must be noted here that the college students forced the school students to come out on the streets through threats to the directors of the schools of physical injury and damage to the school property. This mass (of people) was not stopped by anyone and proceeded along the main street of Tbilisi - Rustaveli Street - towards the Lenin Square. Approximately at 11 o'clock these people accompanied by the cacophony of car sirens were chanting the slogan 'dideba did Stalins' 'dideba did Stalins' (Long Live Great Stalin, Long Live Our Leader Stalin) near the Government House. Then they moved on towards the Lenin Square. Here they again stopped before the City Council building. A few people read poems while others sang songs in praise of Stalin.

On the 8th of March the number of incidents increased. Trucks filled with people appeared and they went about the city with flags and portraits of Lenin and Stalin chanting 'Lenin-Stalin!' and 'Long live Stalin!'.

Vehicles were forcefully stopped, and taken over by the demonstrators and the drivers threatened with physical violence. There were unruly incidents when some people refused to give in to the demands - it happened near the bridge named after Stalin where the hooligans pulled out the driver and threw him into the river Kuru when he refused. Incidents of beating were also reported.

On this day the atmosphere was already very tense. At about 3 p.m. I was in the crowd near the Lenin Square where several of the provocateurs came and delivered speeches. For example they shouted 'Why are there no mourning flags in the city?' Why are there no portraits of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin on the building of the city council?' then they said that all those who support bringing out the portraits raise their hands. Several people rushed towards the City Council building, they searched for the duty officer, found the portraits and put them up on the wall of the building. And how did the police behave? They did nothing. Everything that went on during these days was done in the name of the great son of the Georgian people - Stalin, Djugashvili - this name was on every lip and it reflected the emotions the people.

Then somebody from the platform shouted, pointing towards the building of the Headquarters of the Transcaucasian army 'Georgians! If you want the portraits of Lenin and Stalin then go and demand them'. This was sufficient for the crowd to rush towards the headquarters. The guards could just close the metallic gates in time. Then the crowd started knocking at the gates and shouting. Some of them managed to climb on to the balcony along the water pipes and put up mourning flags. For an hour the headquarters was surrounded by the crowd. Only after that probably came the orders to the soldiers who then went up and put up portraits of Lenin and Stalin.

Now more and more demands were being made by the crowd - the city must be adorned appropriately for the mourning, put up loudspeakers so that poets and other could speak on the occasion. They even demanded to fetch Marshal Chzhu De (A delegation was promptly sent to him). It was later declared from the platform that the Marshal could not come due to illness.

Towards the evening microphones and loudspeakers were set up near the monument to Lenin and thousands of people gathered there. Provocative speeches of inflammatory, chauvinistic and anti-Soviet nature were read, thereby the event was given the twist that the antisocial elements wanted. The names of the people addressing the crowd were either fictitious or were withheld. Thus the unconstrained 'orators' read provocative speeches of an anti-Soviet and chauvinistic nature. I'll give some examples of what I heard. One of the speakers at the Lenin Square in his long speech made a list of Stalin's achievements and declared that with his death all his achievements are being compromised and that the country and first of all the Georgians are going to perish. After that he took out the party card out of his pocket and appealed to fight for the cause of Stalin and if need be to lay down their lives. Shaking the party card in the air he chanted 'who wants to take a vow raise your hands?' Several hands with party cards were seen in the air. They chanted 'we swear, we swear'.

Policemen standing next to me expressed their indignation and few of them smiled. Nobody took any step to turn the provocateur away (probably he had a stolen party card). And the provocateurs continued with their counter-revolutionary speeches. Then another speaker started in much the same vein. A huge young man with a Tarzan hairdo, who called himself a student, waved his fists in the air, and after a series of accusations against the Party and the government, went on to recall the struggle of the Georgian people against the foreigners and then concluded his speech saying:

'Those who have decided to defile Stalin and his memory must know that the Georgian people will never forgive them. We will not allow any criticism of our leader Stalin. Any revision of Stalin is a revision of Marxism and they shall pay for it with their blood'.

This speaker was 'awarded' a long applause by the public. And all this took place at the central square of the capital of Georgia.

Nobody tried to stop this nuisance. Suddenly there was a commotion and a cry for help was heard from someplace nearby. It appeared that a group of hooligans were beating up a person who had loudly expressed his dissatisfaction. The militia men could just manage to save the victim.

The speeches still continued. Suddenly someone spoke in Russian. I could not see the face of the person as he was far away, but it was apparent from his heavy Georgian accent that this speaker was not a Russian. I must underline here that I needed to take precautions and could not make notes as there was the incident of a photographer being beaten up and his camera broken when he turned his camera towards the platform.

I am recounting the speech of this person from memory.

'I am a student of a Moscow institute (no mention of the institute's name) and want to convey to you on behalf of all the students of Moscow our congratulations and that they support you and ask you to continue the struggle that you have begun. Just as the Georgian people we too are angered by the letter of the CC directed against our leader Stalin. It has been written with the purpose of destroying the friendship between the peoples and to turn back the clock of history. Nobody will be allowed to discredit the services of great Stalin - the leader of the world proletariat. Only the enemies of the people can revise Marxism.

Some woman in order to exaggerate shouted aloud from the platform:

'Listen Georgians, we have support in Moscow. Demonstrations are being held not only in Georgia but also in Stalingrad, Leningrad and other cities. We vow to continue our struggle for the cause of Stalin.'

As a young poet was lifted on to the platform he was applauded. He read out a poem dedicated to Stalin and then shouted loudly 'I am with you'.

On this day some intellectuals of Georgia including poets and writers Abashidze, Kaladze, Bobokhidze also read speeches. They read poems commemorating the death anniversary of Stalin.

However even all this did not satisfy the crowd. A voice demanded - 'We want new poems on Stalin reflecting the mood prevalent during these historical events.'

'It is two days now that we are waiting for Iosif Grishashvili, the winner of the Stalin Prize to come and read his poems. Why isn't he here? When Stalin was alive he received lots of money and now he can't even pay his gratitude to him. The Georgian people will not forgive such a poet.'

Anybody could speak from the platform as long as he expressed the sentiments that the provocateurs had aroused. Even a priest spoke thanking the Georgians for protecting the name of Stalin.

It is reported that even more revolting speeches were read near the monument.

On 9th March unimaginable things were happening. Not only the youth but even grown-ups were going berserk on the streets. Most of the small workshops were closed. The employees of small offices stopped work and came out on the streets. There were even cases of workers not reporting for work at the enterprises of the food and light industry. In short the normal life in the city was totally disrupted. That is why the Central Committee (certainly after a big delay) appealed to the city's population.

The transport - movement of trams, buses and trolley buses was disrupted from the very morning. A large number of trucks full of people moved all over the city waving flags and portraits. They were singing songs and shouting 'Lenin, Stalin' and 'Long live Stalin'. Flags were flying at half mast in the city and the walls of the buildings were plastered with portraits of Lenin and Stalin. On the eve the offices of the newspapers Kommunist and Zarya Vostoka were invaded by unknown people who threatened to demolish the office and the press if commemorative issues were not published (after this incident the offices of these publications were given armed protection).

On 9th March the newspapers carried editorials 'The Third Anniversary of the Death of J.V. Stalin' with a photo showing Lenin and Stalin together at the Gorkakh (1922). On the first page it was announced that 'Today, 9th March, meetings would be held at 1 o'clock in all the enterprises, offices and educational institutions to commemorate the third anniversary of the death of J.V. Stalin'.

I went to the meeting at the Stalin Coach Building Factory - the oldest factory in Georgia (formerly the Railway workshop). A stage was erected and a large portrait of Stalin was put up.

The chairman of the factory trade union Com. Deshneli opened the meeting. The director of the enterprise Com. Matsaberidze made the first speech. The speech that he made was in line with the Editorial in the newspaper Zarya Vostoka. Further he informed that the workers of the factory are successfully striving to implement the decisions of the XXth Congress of the Party and that the plans for the last two months have been over-fulfilled. Com. Matsaberidze concluded his speech with an appeal to the workers to work more efficiently.

Com. Chumburidze, a turner at the factory and also a delegate to the XXth Congress, Com. Antadze, the oldest worker at the factory, Com. Turin, a team leader, and Com. Bedenashvili, a fitter and many others declared that they will carry on the fight for higher productivity, and that the collective of the factory that carried the name of Stalin will occupy the front row in the struggle for the victory of Communism.

However, neither the first speaker nor the subsequent speakers said a word about what was happening in the city and did not condemn the deceitful provocateurs. I consider it a mistake that there was nobody present at the meeting from the City Committee and the Central Committee of the party. It was necessary to speak out and to explain to the people that the events in the city are a result of incitement.

Meanwhile, in two other towns of the republic the commemorative meeting passed without any incidents. In Gori and Kutaisi meetings were held under the supervision of the party organisations. After the meetings the people dispersed peacefully.

But in Tbilisi right from the morning meetings were being held. At 1 o'clock the First Secretary of the Communist Party of Georgia Com. Mzhavanadze gave a short speech at the Lenin Square. At the end he said that the 'appeal' issued by the people will be considered and they will be given a reply. The people began to disperse, but when Com. Mzhavanadze departed a woman shouted 'Stop! I was summoned today to the Ministry of Internal Affairs and they took a written obligation from me that I will not speak today. I ask all of you why such things are being done?' And the crowd stopped.

In the evening a large crowd gathered at the monument of Stalin. It is reported that some critic by the name of Beso Zhgenti read out a very chauvinistic and anti-Soviet speech. The 'appeal' was also read out. It included among others such points: do not make public the letter about the 'personality cult' and the change of government etc.

Absolutely revolting was the behaviour of the people sitting on the trucks (the number plates were removed). Youngsters moved on the streets and were shouting: 'Long live Stalin' and 'Our blood for Stalin'.

And some of them moved about the city in trucks and personal cars shouting and waving knives while showering insults at the government and the Soviet leaders.

So about 11 o'clock in the evening (as per Tbilisi time) near the building of the Communication Ministry (situated about 200 metres from the Central Committee of the party) a most horrible incident took place which was to be expected the way events were developing.

As a matter of fact by this time a number of organisations were already put under armed protection. So a strong security cordon was thrown around the Central Committee building, the State House, the Army Headquarters and the newspaper and publishing houses.

At 23.45 hours a large crowd of people rushed towards the radio station shouting: 'Capture the radio station, capture the telegraph office'. It appears that a group of 10 persons was sent into the telegraph office to dispatch telegrams. They were allowed inside but were detained for identification. This was passed outside to the crowd. On the call given by the provocateurs people were sent to secure the release of the detained persons. The way to the building was guarded by the security personal. Some one from the rear ranks opened machine gun fire. One soldier was attacked with a knife. Hooligans put everything into action: knives, stones and belts. Shooting in the air was resorted to. Shots were returned from the crowd. The provocateurs continued inciting people. There was no way out for the soldiers. Their life was in danger and they were forced into taking defensive action. Only after this did the crowd disperse.

After this with the help of tanks the crowd gathered at the Lenin Square was also dispersed. The square and the Rustaveli Street were cleared. Most of the people went away. But the crowd still remained at the monument. It was not possible to take forceful measures here as the monument was in a park and was surrounded by a large number of trees which was made use of by the provocateurs.

Anti-social elements started inciting the nationalist sentiments of the people:

'Georgians' - they shouted - 'blood has been spilt for Stalin and we will continue our struggle and not a single Georgian must leave this place etc.'

The armed contingents surrounded the park and asked the people to disperse. Jeers and insults were hurled at them in response. Knives and fists were shown in response to repeated warnings. And when around three o'clock in the night they were being pushed out the hooligans and the provocateurs put up resistance - they began to attack the soldiers, snatch the machine guns from their hands and by now there were casualties among the soldiers. It forced them to resort to the use of arms.

This is what the provocation, that was apparently organised by foreign spies and agents, and which was not dealt with in time led to. This is clearly borne by the fact that a Turkish bullet was found in the wound of one of the soldiers injured during these incidents.

There was provocation also in the town of Gori. During the night (at 4 o'clock) some 'demonstrators' had come from Tbilisi in trucks to the Gori Textile Mill (from Tbilisi it is 2 hours journey). This group of people broke into the compound of this enterprise and the provocateurs started shouting: 'Why are you working? There is a civil war going on in Tbilisi. The Russians are killing us.' A section of the workers went with the provocateurs. In the enterprise village people were forced out of their beds and onto the trucks. Several vehicles with the workers from the enterprise were taken to Tbilisi in trucks. In the morning the administration of the enterprise had to get workers from different shifts so that the work is not disrupted.

On 10th March the Order was issued and pasted all over Tbilisi (in some places it was torn). The people talked about the incidents of the night in hushed tones and blamed the government and the Russian soldiers. In spite of the fact that soldiers armed with machine guns were guarding the monument, a group of people tried to gather there but was asked to move away by the soldiers. At about 12 p.m. a large group of people gathered on the bridge and rushed towards the monument. Warning shots were fired in the air and this stopped the people. On this there was an attempt to seize the military warehouse. Heavy military patrolling was carried out on the 10th and 11th March. Meetings were held in the party organisations and night duties were organised at the various enterprises.

Law and order has now been restored in the city. Some of the organisers and provocateurs have been arrested. All establishments are functioning normally.

These were the first anti-Soviet demonstrations ever in Tbilisi during the Soviet rule. Some minor incidents had occurred in some regions of Georgia in 1924 but never in Tbilisi.

The events of these days are an evidence of the lapses in the work of our intelligence agencies. The enemy could make use of the weak link i.e. the national sentiments. The existence of a spy centre can also not be ruled out as the evidence points towards organised guidance and that everything occurred according to a well-thought-out plan.

In my opinion the public reading of the letter on 'personality cult' should have been avoided (it was known to about 150 people in the Central Committee of the party even on 4 and 5 March). However on the 5th and 6th the symptoms were already visible. The decisions of putting loudspeakers was a mistake and if was done then it was necessary for the party leaders and workers (City Committee and the regional committee) not to leave the loudspeakers and take control of the situation. Making full use of the absence of the leaders the deceitful provocateurs carried out their anti-Soviet action.

In Tbilisi there are a large numbers of unemployed. There are thousands of qualified people who stay in the city but do not want to go to other places in the region to work and it is these people who vitiate the atmosphere in the city. Probably the provocateurs made use of this class of people. The town should now be properly searched.

I have been living in Georgia since long ago and know the language of the people and know their customs. The majority of them are honest and loyal Soviet citizens. The people I know well are extremely indignant. They say that 'Georgia has fallen in the eyes of the entire Soviet people. Here among the youth there are unscrupulous hooligans who for the sake of a 'friend' and a 'comrade' can even commit a crime. There was a time when it was very popular to be a member of the organisation Young Marxists. In view of the recent events, I am afraid if something similar has not been organised by the provocateurs.

I am confident that the CC of the CPSU would examine the whole affair and come to appropriate conclusions.

Correspondent of Trud in Georgia
12 March 1956
Tbilisi
(S. Stanikov)

A P P E A L

To Communists, Members of the Komsomol,
Workers and all the Working People of Georgia

5th to 9th March have been days of mourning as the sad date of the death of J.V. Stalin were commemorated. During these days the working people of Georgia came to the monument to Stalin as a mark of their respect for him. These sentiments are very natural and understandable.

However, in these days of mourning some deceitful individuals - provocateurs and organisers of the unrest - who attempted to use the sense of grief of the sons of the Georgian people to harm the cause of Lenin to which J.V. Stalin devoted his whole life. These people took to creating unrest with the aim of disturbing the normal functioning of various establishments, enterprises, educational institutions and the life in the city.

The Central Committee of the Communist Party of Georgia and the Central Committee of the Leninist Youth Communist League call on all communists, members of the Komsomol and all Soviet patriots for whom the cause of Socialism is dear to immediately restore order in the city, restrain the provocateurs and ensure the normal functioning of all establishments and educational institutions.

The CC of the CPSU and the CC of the Komsomol appeal to all the citizens of Tbilisi who have been misled by the provocateurs and call on them to immediately return to their normal work.

The CC of the CPSU and the CC of the Komsomol are convinced that the communists and the members of the Komsomol would take the lead and restore normal life in the city.

CC CP of Georgia
CC ALYCL
9th March 1956
Tbilisi

ORDER No. 14
Tbilisi
9th March 1956

Officer in Command of the Tbilisi Garrison

During the last few days in Tbilisi there have been attempts by certain elements to create unrest and disturb the normal functioning of enterprises, establishments and the life in the city of Tbilisi.

To stop these disturbances I order Lt. Colonel Makushev, Commandant of Tbilisi, to authorize military patrolling from 24.00 hours 9th March.

To arrest and hand over to the militia for criminal proceedings all persons creating unrest and disturbing the normal life in the city.

Major General Gladkov
Officer in Command of Tbilisi Garrison.

[El Che]

Sure flood the forum with bullshit. Thats an effective tactic for one who has no answers and no excuses. Smoke screen.

[Mazdak]

"Sure flood the forum with bullshit. Thats an effective tactic for one who has no answers and no excuses. Smoke screen."

Yes, the anti stalinists seem to love doing that.

You are dividing the movement. You claim we preach propoganda when it seems you have no end to use of american/capitalist propoganda and trotskyist propoaganda. You use Kryushchevist propoganda and lies. And you accuse US of stalinist lies.

As CC explained, the idea of permanent revolution is nothing short of imperialism.

[vox]

El Che,

It occured to me earlier who these Stalinists are like: Holocaust deniers. All the facts are on our side, but they refuse to listen. Hell, Clay is still moaning about that "one paragraph" thing, failing to answer in any way at all the point that Stalin replaced the proletariat with the Party. On that he's completely silent. He rationalizes prison camps and murder. Finally, he uses the most disgusting, and disingenuous, argument around: the Americans and British were starving people, too! As if that makes it right. Indeed, what's more ludicrous is that he uses the crimes of capitalist imperialists to justify the crimes of Stalin.

Unions were the tools of the State, not organs of worker representation. Strikes were outlawed. Workers were exploited for the benefit of a ruling Party over which they had no control. Dissent was forbidden. These are all things we know and they deny.

The worst fools are those who refuse to hear.

vox

[El Che]

Hell, these guys aren`t any good at this sort of thing anyway. Their prefered method of dealing with people like us is torture, prison or death. Or any combination of the 3. Its truely amazing people like CC feel so comfortable (or do they?) in this sort of interaction. Forums all over the internet are theming with their kind. Perhaps the fact that noone listens to these maniacs in the real world can explain this fact.

I have no ilusions. To me they represent the worst in human beings. God help those who get cought in their webs. This isn`t really about society, its about authority. Its about sick people and power trips. Abuses happen all the time, in all sorts of situations. They merely represent abuse and despotism on the macro scale, the ultimate high. These fuckers are playing with fire and they dont even realise it. The fire we all keep deep inside.

[peaccenicked]

CC You have not a clue about permanent revolution or what Trotsky wanted I suggest you read Trotsky before you repeat Stalinist lies.
http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/wo...works/1931-tpv/ (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1931-tpv/)

Give me one quote. You lying fools.

[Edelweiss]

Alright, CC, we are all poisened by US propaganda, Stalin was not authoritarian at all, he was a liberal benefactor. And I'm Stanta Claus. :)
Seriously, I can't discuss with you if you deny simple facts.

[Kehoe]

In earlier posts I attempted to defend those who consider themselves as Stalinists because I feel no one should be discriminated against.However,this defense stemmed from the idea that they merely held to certain forms of Stalinist doctrine for I myself appreciate the idea that Comrade Stalin initially set about to forge a socialist state even if some of his policies at first appear to have been somewhat extreme.The time has come to speak openly in regards to Comrade Stalin the man,he was a ruthless dictator and tyrant who in his personal thirst for power can be numbered among men such as Ivan the Terrible,Benito Mussolini,Adolf Hitler,and countless scores of other such egomaniacs,and into this mass of monsters Chairman Mao also resides.In each human being both good and evil are present,the art of true humanity is to allow the good quality to dominate ones personality while constantly minimizing the bad.We all come equipped with these opposing inclinations and it is our responsibility to cultivate that which is good;however,the more individual freedom and position of power one attains the greater the urge to cling to the dark side of nature in that one feels at ease to display those traits which otherwise must be restrained.One generally travels the path of least resistance and when no opposing force is present men tend to become vile and repressive having little or no regard for human suffering.As for those individuals who continue to consider themselves hardline Stalinists and wish to worship at the altar of vile priests ... no pity can be offered to a man who willfully clings to defilement and ruin. - Karo

(Edited by Kehoe at 6:14 pm on Nov. 28, 2002)

[Mazdak]

So, Kehoe completely turns around and goes from being opened minded to being a narrowminded anti stalinist.

Ruthless dictator? Ruthless for what? The problem is no one appreciates what Stalin did for the world. If it weren't for his vast industrialization and 5 year plans
1 hitler would without a doubt have conquered the USSR.
2. All of the other revolutions (Cuba, China) would have never happened. Che would mean nothing as the world would basically be entirely against him. If it werent for Stalin the Soviet Union would either have been conquerd by the nazis or have lasted a few more years. Even Khrushchev's, and Brezhnev's weak, damaging rules did not do much to the Soviet Union. Why? Because Stalin had made it this way. He made the USSR last far longer than it could have without his rapid industrialization.

Once again we all must see Peaccenicked rely on the work of others to debate. Trotsky is not a viable source on Stalin. Nor is Robert Conquest. You do love using sources of this sort. (i am aware the link had nothing to do with the Trotsky vs. Stalin debate).


Close minded imbeciles.

[peaccenicked]

Mazdak.
You seem to have no sense whatsoever. Stalinists say on this thread Trotsky's theory of permanent revolution is the same as imperialism. I link to all Trotsky had to say on this theory and you say it has nothing to do with the debate.
Try a course in reading skills.

[redstar2000]

What I can't UNDERSTAND about the "fans" of Uncle Joe is not that they defend his reputation against all the critics...but that they SEEM to want to do it AGAIN!

"Democratic centralism" in all its variants (Stalinism, Trotskyism, Maoism) has PROVEN to be nothing but a TOTAL CATASTROPHE.

And the explanations for these failures always turn out to be based on personalities: Stalin's successors were turds; Mao's successors were turds; etc. THIS is what these people call "Marxism".

Sometimes I think it will take another CENTURY to clear away this stinking rubbish...so that we can have a real communist movement that is more than just an embarrassment.

[El Che]

Kehoe, despite my differences with you I enjoyed your last post. It is a sign that you possess common decency and a good understanding of men, their vaults and virtues. This is not a matter of lesser importance, it is criminal to ask for union with people who lack the most basic respect for others. Its time to draw the line and say clearly that some things can not and will not be tolerated. They are no comrades, they have no place at our sides, they should be ostracised by all forces of the left. Let them stand alone or with their nazi pals. Its time to truly and definatly give up old ilusions.

[Mazdak]

Peaccenicked, i simply was pointing out your use of links almost always. You rarely use anything BUT links to prove your point.

I dont mind permanent revolution as much as i mind Trotsky's legacy as Stalin's rival. To be honest, the whole idea of the revolution is to eventually start world revolution. However, i agree with Stalin in that one country should build up strength before "exporting" the revolution.

[peaccenicked]

Mazdak.
the theheor that you can strengthen socialism in one country is falacious. The best the Bolsheviks hoped for was a holding operation. They knew that without revolution especially in Germany their cause was sunk.
I use link sparadocally to provide evidence, the trouble with you is you dont want to hear anything against the ''great man'' or the ''strong man'' . Why are you engaging in the cult of the personality. That is something you will find Marx warning against.

If you spent some time looking at Soviet literature. You might begin to understand the nature of the nightmare Stalin created. There seems no rationale behind your extreme idiocy.http://www.sovlit.com/bios.html

[Cassius Clay]

''It occured to me earlier who these Stalinists are like: Holocaust deniers. All the facts are on our side, but they refuse to listen.''

No FACTS are on your side, all the evidence you have is that you have repeated it enough times that people just accept it as fact. You have no photographic, reliable eye witness, film, archival, survivors or mass graves.

If you seriously expect anybody to believe that a team of International sponsered teams can find the remains of a 30,000 year old Mamall while not being able to find the remains of even a few hundred thousand of a rumoured 30 million bodies which are barely 50 years old then you better just go back to the Reagen propaganda office and recheck your notes.

Robet Conquest? All the photographic 'evidence' he ever produced is well known to be a complete fraud (everybody who worked on the film 'Harvest of Sorrow' has admitted so).

Aleaxander Soljenistyn, a Nazi and a supporter of Franco. Nope your going to have to do better than that.

Why don't you try finding what the now opened 'secret archives' say about those who died in the Soviet Union's prisons and the reasons behind their deaths? If evil 'Stalinist' sources aren't good enough for you then I think your find the UN has a similar figure.

''Hell, Clay is still moaning about that "one paragraph" thing, failing to answer in any way at all the point that Stalin replaced the proletariat with the Party. On that he's completely silent.''

Bit like you on that article I posted, hell you've just totally ignored it, let me guess they were all beuracrates? 'Replaced proletariat with the Party' wrong, did you grow up under Stalin because those workers and peasants that did now vote for the current Communists that did.

''He rationalizes prison camps and murder.''

Where have I ever said I defend murder? You better quoted me on this. 'Prison camps', what society doesn't have prisons? But you will most likely just ignore this part and go on with 'Evil Stalin betrayed everything'. Guess what, it's old and unorignal. Come up with something better.

Speaking about defending murder, how do you justify the murder of Sergie Kirov.

''Finally, he uses the most disgusting, and disingenuous, argument around: the Americans and British were starving people, too! As if that makes it right. Indeed, what's more ludicrous is that he uses the crimes of capitalist imperialists to justify the crimes of Stalin.''

Oh dear you have (delibartly most likely) completly taken what I said out of context. And again you seem to face this problem of selective quoting, read 'Volga Famine'. The point I was making is that their were famines that precise same year in India and the American mid-west, there was also a famine in the Volga in 1921. No suggestion of 'delibarate' starvation there.

''Unions were the tools of the State, not organs of worker representation. Strikes were outlawed.''

Ofcourse they were, this would explain the massive workers striikes and militancy (some in the Ukraine as late as 1962, my god that would be like Jews celebrating Hitler's brithday from the image you try to paoint) who carried pictures of Stalin while protesting. I heard this claim about Mao's China (which I'm no fan of), turns out that strikes were infact perfectly legal up till 1983, indeed there was a strike in 1975 Bejing.

Let's say for a moment that what you say is right, fine we learn from mistakes and the same law won't be introduced again.

''Workers were exploited for the benefit of a ruling Party over which they had no control.''

Once again no millionaires in USSR 1953 by mid 1970's over 13,000 (that's the registered number, more likely thousands more had savings tucked away in Switzerland), this was after a former member of the Trotskyite opposition had taken over the country. That's FACT.

In the late 1930's a minimum work hours a week was introduced (although later cancelled during war), sure beats Trotsky's call for 'Military Discipline' doesn't it.

''Dissent was forbidden. These are all things we know and they deny.''

Kollantai, Gorky, Pavlov, Trotsky allowed to stand in a perfectly fair election even after his supproters had the previous month attempted to ransack party buildings, Bakurin given editorship of newspapers where he put across criticism and a opposing view point. Shame nobody agreed with him.

''The worst fools are those who refuse to hear.''

Indeed they are.

[Edelweiss]

CC, all the words are full of cynism and paranoia, it's just disgusting. Your statements are an insult for all the victims of the Stalinist terror (read http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/mar2002/.../book-m16.shtml (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/mar2002/book-m16.shtml) for just one exapmple of the true face of Stalimism, that you are constantly ignoring).
What you are also constantly ignoring is the fact that hardly nobody of us is really a Trotzkyist, you seem to think that everybody in the world who isn't a hardcore Stalinist like you, is a Trotzyist, it's jut too stupid, and a typical sign of somebody who is brainwashed by some Stalin sect.

Mazdak,
Nice try, but the deafeat of Hitler in Russia, wasn't the great military leadership of Stalin, the main resaon was the hard Russian winter, which was totally underestimated by Hitler. There were more German soldiers frozen to death in Stalingrad, than there died through Russian bullets.

[Cassius Clay]

Malte, that link doesn't work, for me atleast. Peacenicked is a Trotskyite is he not? I've called no one a Trotskyite, in that last post all I asked for was for Vox to justify the murder of Sergie Kirov.

'Words are full of cynism and paranoia, it's just disgusting', well that's open to interpration I suppose what precise words did you find so 'disgusting' and full of 'paranoia'.

Once again I'm going to have to quote Gorby. 'Stalinism is a theory made up by the enemies of the USSR to smear the Soviet State'.

'Victims of Stalinist terror', all 799,445 of them who on the whole happened to be criminalls who would be locked up in any society, or the political terriorists who murdered Kirov and others and were prepared to sell their nation out to German Fascism as long as they could take power. No I don't feel the least bit sorry for them and nobody with any decent morals should.

I do feel sorry for the innocent people who died due to Soviet government decisions during Stalin's time. I feel sorry for the Crimean Tartars and Chechens who were wrongly deported, I feel sorry for people who died in prison due to discease or a court of law finding them wrongly guilty and I feel sorry for innocent people who died in a famine in the Ukraine caused in part by a act of mother nature, Stalin's slow reaction, discease, over zealous party officials and Kulaks who decided to burn crops and animals.

'Brainwashed' by whom precisly? My schoolbook/s, Orwell and Trotsky whose ideology's are smashed down every childs mouth, by such films as Rambo, U$ propaganda and so called 'Historians' like Conquest and Soljenitsyn? No it's because I opened my eyes and looked past your Nazi/Trotskyite/Reagen sources (dammed if I can tell the difference between them though).

'Cult' the Georgian workers and peasants were no members of a cult, neither are the workers of Albania, or the Cuban government.

[vox]

CC is a fool. His lies have been refuted countless times by countless people. He wants to believe that Stalin created a paradise on earth, and nothing will prevent his miguided faith in his unholy leader.

People suffered under Stalin, and anyone who is not blind to reality knows this. I find it amusing that CC hates the Left more than the capitalists, as evidenced by this thread.

WE are the Left, CC. You are a footnote. Pathetic and mostly forgotten, your time will never come, for it has already gone. Masturbate over the mass graves all you want. You will never win. Not here. Not anywhere. The proletariat has learned the lesson that Stalin taught, learned it in blood.

So post another rant. And another. And another. It won't matter. The intellectuals will laugh at you and the workers will spit on you.

You've lost. Profoundly. History shows us that. You may as well champion Feudalism.

Scream about nonexistent facts all you like. Foam at the mouth and quiver with fury.

You're a joke here and everywhere else.

vox

[peaccenicked]

I am not I trotskyite. Though If I had a choice between
Stalin than trotsky. The choice would be easy.
You say you feel sorry. To quote:''I do feel sorry for the innocent people who died due to Soviet government decisions during Stalin's time. ''
Are you saying Stalin was not a dictator.

You seem to think so here"and I feel sorry for innocent people who died in a famine in the Ukraine caused in part by a act of mother nature, Stalin's slow reaction, discease, over zealous party officials and Kulaks who decided to burn crops and animals. ''
Stalin's slow reaction....hmm not the Soviet Government.

For some sick reason you want to lie for Stalin and even what you are saying is not consistent.

[Edelweiss]

correted link: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/mar2002/.../book-m16.shtml (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/mar2002/book-m16.shtml)

[Cassius Clay]

''I am not I trotskyite.''

Sorry my bad.

''Though If I had a choice between
Stalin than trotsky. The choice would be easy.
You say you feel sorry. To quote:''I do feel sorry for the innocent people who died due to Soviet government decisions during Stalin's time. ''
Are you saying Stalin was not a dictator.''

That's precisly what I'm saying.

''You seem to think so here"and I feel sorry for innocent people who died in a famine in the Ukraine caused in part by a act of mother nature, Stalin's slow reaction, discease, over zealous party officials and Kulaks who decided to burn crops and animals. ''
Stalin's slow reaction....hmm not the Soviet Government.''

The reason I wrote 'Stalin's slow reaction' and not Soviet government was because If I had wrote that I thought you would leach upon me saying something along the lines of 'When you praise everything good that happened it's all due to Stalin and when something bad happens it's the Soviet governments fault' and you no what you probably would of been justified in saying that.

''For some sick reason you want to lie for Stalin and even what you are saying is not consistent.''

I have lied no where, please tell me where I've lied. This apply's to you to Vox (who as usual has no response to the points I make and the questions I ask), you accuse me of lies, no where in this entire thread have I lied.

''CC hates the Left more than the capitalists, as evidenced by this thread.''

Yeah because I was the one who started this thread wasn't I, you call me a 'fool' I've never insulted anyone on this board but that comment really does show a certain Stupidity. I don't hate anyone, especially the Left, on the contray I admire the sought of work done by 'Socialists' or 'Trotskyites' in fighting Combat 18 a few years ago here in Britain.

'We are the left CC' If that's what you think. Handing out newspapers infront of woolworths, spraying anarchy signs and smashing up McDonalds every year is your contribution to the Socialist cause (although as pointed out above you do occasionaly do something more productive). When was the last time any of you carried out a Revolution? You never did and you never will.

''The proletariat has learned the lesson that Stalin taught,''

Indeed they did in Albania, in Georgia and throughout the world for the last half a century.

''So post another rant. And another. And another. It won't matter''

To a closed mind like your dear self ofcourse it won't matter. Bit like a Nazi when you point out to them that Black people are physically better at the 100m than White people.

[peaccenicked]

"Kollantai, Gorky, Pavlov, Trotsky allowed to stand in a perfectly fair election even after his supproters had the previous month attempted to ransack party buildings, Bakurin given editorship of newspapers where he put across criticism and a opposing view point. Shame nobody agreed with him."

That is just a lie.
Tell me where you got this lie from.

[Mazdak]

Quote: from Malte on 11:37 am on Nov. 29, 2002
CC, all the words are full of cynism and paranoia, it's just disgusting. Your statements are an insult for all the victims of the Stalinist terror (read http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/mar2002/.../book-m16.shtml (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/mar2002/book-m16.shtml) for just one exapmple of the true face of Stalimism, that you are constantly ignoring).
What you are also constantly ignoring is the fact that hardly nobody of us is really a Trotzkyist, you seem to think that everybody in the world who isn't a hardcore Stalinist like you, is a Trotzyist, it's jut too stupid, and a typical sign of somebody who is brainwashed by some Stalin sect.

Mazdak,
Nice try, but the deafeat of Hitler in Russia, wasn't the great military leadership of Stalin, the main resaon was the hard Russian winter, which was totally underestimated by Hitler. There were more German soldiers frozen to death in Stalingrad, than there died through Russian bullets.



No, but if it weren't for his moves to industrialize, the Russians would have lost far more than they ever did. I know he wasnt an actual general during the fighting.

[Cassius Clay]

''That is just a lie.
Tell me where you got this lie from.''

If you have allready concluded that it is just a lie can I ask why I need to go through the effort of providing sources?

Kollantai was a critic of Stalin (and previously Lenin) from her time in the Swedish Embassy, she was actually fucking the King of Sweden now if that doesn't contribute as a embarresment to the Soviet government I'm not sure what does. Pavlov was a Scientist who had won the Nobel prize in the 1900's and more importatnly was a Christian who routinly criticised the Soviet government's policy towards the Church.

Bakhurin was given editorship of Izvestia in 1934, during then and when he was brought to trial he criticised the war against the Kulaks, collectivisation, concetration on heavy industry and basically anything Stalin was doing/supporting.

Really quite a shame that he felt the need to resort to becoming a Nazi ally when not everybody agreed with him.

Trotsky, if you go to the Redcomrades site you will see that in the December 1927 election the united oppostion only got 6,000 votes out of over 725,000 votes cast. This after his supporters had wen't on a rampage throughout Petrograd. The source for that incidently is 'The Russian Revolution: A People's tragedy', which although sometimes criticical of Trotsky is fanatical in it's hatred for Stalin. Even attempting to give credit for this stupid claim that Stalin had Lenin murdered.

[Guest]

ND here. Kollantai fucked the king of sweden? where did you hear that? and she was a critic of stalin and lenin(and i don't see what wrong with it, they are not gods)but later she stopped criticizing them. about pavlov was a chrisitian, and that show us that the persecution of religion wasn't full, but it's not like everyone had the right to worship what fiction they want. i already told you about the guy that was arrested for praying(and i don't think my grandmother that lived there is an unreliable source).

[Cassius Clay]

''ND here. Kollantai fucked the king of sweden? where did you hear that? and she was a critic of stalin and lenin(and i don't see what wrong with it, they are not gods''

It's a well known FACT (well I suppose it could of just been rumour/s which gradually built up into percieved FACT, but never the less the damage to the Soviet government is still the same when it comes to it's image among western workers and interlectuals), I've heard from numerous times that I can't actually give you a source right now, if you see what I mean.

I know there not gods and as John Reed said if you purge dissent you purge the Revolution. But there is a difference between criticism and murder, treason and terriorism.

Your Grandmother ND, she was there during the war yes? It's a well known FACT that the Church experienced a massive revival during the war, and was even encouranged by the government. I highly doubt that this man was arrested during this time simply for praying.

Malte, that link works. I'll respond to it tommorrow.

[Edelweiss]

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...um=26&topic=163 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=26&topic=163)

[Mazdak]

Why dont you make another sticky thread "In defense of Stalinism" a sticky. Otherwise, you are acting on an extremely biased standpoint. You are showing how Liberatarians can get away with almost anything and give them special privileges yet Stalinists dont have a soap box from which we can prove your Western/Trotskyist propoganda wrong. It is only fair.

And if you are so right and we are so wrong then you wouldnt be afraid to do this. You would use it as an opportunity to prove how foolish we are. But since you cannot do this, you actually make the extremely biased move to make an anti stalin thread sticky.

Pitiful.

[peaccenicked]

Mazdak. Your political niavety is astounding. The vast majority of the left hate Stalinism with avengence.
It is about lies. It is about who is telling the truth but more it is about human values and those who say that stalins victims desrved belong in the anti human, anti socialist camp. All you inspire is outrage from reasonablely minded people. All we get is persistent irrationality.

[Umoja]

What's the difference between Stalinism and Facism?

A leader gets "elected" and then stays in power for the rest of his life. It would seem that the only differnce is that one read Nietze for ideas and the other read Marx.

Stalinist are straight out wrong, even if they did help keep the Nazi's at bay, that doesn't justify their crimes. Does the creation of Rockets, which led to space travel, justify the Nazi's war crimes?

What's the difference in killing a Jew and killing a Christian? A Trokskist and a Communist? If you ask me, their really isn't. Regardless, your killing people who don't agree with the way a single "enlightend" leader sees the world.

Enlightend reminds me of something. It reminds me of Capitalism, where the most "enlightend" rise to the top....

[Kehoe]

Dictators dont believe in democracy and the electorial system ... they are generally self-appointed or else fills the inner elite corp with appointed officials who rally for the appointment of their benefactor as sole leader.Comrade Stalin in his bid for power proved to be a true Machiavellian prince through cunning and deceitfulness,as well as his tyrannical cruelty to maintain his hold on power.As for the defeat of Nazi Germany,this was as much the fault of Hitler for making himself chief-commander of the military and through tactical blunders on his behalf set up the Third Reich for eventual defeat.Comrade Stalin was no better in his military decisions,having sent many unarmed troops into the field to meet a sure death.The greatest weapon against advancing Nazi troops into Russia was nature itself having thrown upon the land the severest winter in 40 years which brought a mechanized army to a complete and cruel hault.I am convinced that a man who would admire Comrade Stalin is merely a whisper away from idolizing Herr Hitler as der Fuhrer.A ruthless tyrant is the same no matter what ideology he employs as a means to deceive the people ... Comrade Stalin was to Communism what Hitler was to National Socialism ... when Hitler came to power his first act was the elimination of the left-wing of the party(who wished to enact their brand of socialism)during the night of the long-knives ... the same thing is evident of Comrade Stalin in his attacks against such ardent(and highly intelligent)socialist comrades as N.I.Bukharin and Leon Trotsky.Comrade Lenin was aware of Comrade Stalins ambitions and tried to warn the party.There has been those who have claimed that Comrade Stalins hatred of Comrade Trotsky stemmed from the fact that Comrade Trotsky had removed Comrade Stalin from the front lines during the battle,But Comrade Trotsky had spoken out against the gloomy Georgian and had achieved popularity because of his leadership abilities as commander of the Red Army and Comrade Stalin viewed him as a threat to his campaign for dictatorship and as the champion of a counterrevolution,for these and other reasons Comrade Trotsky had to be eliminated being tracked to Mexico and killed.Comrade Stalin was nothing more than a bourgeois opportunist who used the revolution as a means for personal power and as of 1930 the entire revolution was erased and supplanted by the cult of Tsar Stalin. - Karo

(Edited by Kehoe at 7:23 am on Nov. 30, 2002)

[Mazdak]

Peaccenicked, even if we are hated, we are still leftist nonetheless. Stalinism isnt racist(at least the theory itself is not). Ironic how the same leftists who hate Comrade Stalin so much have no problems with anarchists. Not once have i seen an attack on anarchy here that was instigated by anyone other than a stalinist/authoritarian. So you would rather have humans living like cavemen in primitive prehistoric villages, completely isolated, than have a brief dictatorship and achieve an orderly, collective society. You would rather have the communism of pre civilized man than the communism of Joseph Stalin? True power can corrupt but you all seem to think of dictatorship as something to be looked down upon, something to be scorned without realizing that not all dictators are powerhungry monsters who care only for their own well being.

Kehoe, you are nothing more than a coward. At first, you defended Stalin and tried to have an open mind, but as soon as you sensed any kind of defeat you immediatly changed stance.

Stalin was a socialist. Trotsky was a socialist. Socialism isn't one rigid movement. It evolves and changes according to its surroundings. How can you not see this?

And i demand that a pro stalin thread be made sticky in history. "In defense of Stalin" or something of that nature. If you are so right you would comply and then make fools of us in our own thread. And better yet for you, the thread would always be there, so anyone who visits the forum would immediatly see how foolish we were. Or are you in denial? Is it that you know that you can't prove us wrong?

The claim that Stalin was a bourgeois opportunist is nothing but a blatant lie. He came from a family of peasants. If one wants to look for an opportunist, Trotsky was a great example of one. Stalin stayed true to Lenin from the beginning. Trotsky was with the Mensheviks for quite a significant period of time.

[peaccenicked]

This as a link to the standard marxist inerpretation
of Stalin's betrayal of socialism.
You are wrong about the controversy betwen anarchists and marxists. However, as Lenin said we have more in common with anarchists than reformists.
In my books we have nothing in common with the glorifiers of the class traitor Stalin.
http://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/.../world/ch06.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/works/world/ch06.htm)

[Kehoe]

At first I defended Stalinism ... you can say that.What I did was to argue for Stalinism in the strongest possible sense at first,but every subject and issue has two sides,for me to objectively respond to such a topic as Stalinism I had to first defend then accuse and by so doing I have shown an open mind.As for sensing defeat,it appears that a stronger argument can be made against than for Stalinism or else you wouldnt have made the statement that I sensed defeat,and as for changing my stance ... what stance?I simply dont like the idea of anyone displaying prejudism in any form and believe that it was wrong to begin a thread entitled Stalinists:Ignorant Bastards ... there are better ways of confronting issues than mere name-calling and stating one-sided beliefs without consideration of any opposing views.I believe that those comrades that are called and consider themselves Stalinists are anything but ignorant ... much rather they appear to be quite intelligent ... and people generally tend to fear and attack those they perceive to be of superior intellect.I have found it to be a common practice here to use profanity to compensate for a lack of knowledge and I myself engaged in this vile art to show just how ridiculous this practice truly is but never again ... the mere fact that I allowed myself to use vulgarity to prove a point is a sad statement against my better judgement but I am determined not to let this happen again.As for my views on leadership,the state and governance ... these things will always be in demand whether one agrees with them or not.I was a child of the 60s and know firsthand the benefits of discipline,switching a child wasnt a morbid form of sadism for parents but an unfortunate matter of correction,and in this day and age with all the rampant killings carried out by children(like those two young hooligans who recently beat their dad to death) it is evident that sparing the rod does indeed spoil the child.In such matters were I to appear to be authoritarian ... then I am guilty as charged.I said that Comrade Stalin was a bourgeois opportunist and I stand on this claim until someone can present evidence that will conclusively prove otherwise.I myself consider the need of tyrants to gain and maintain power nothing more than a display of petty bourgeois self-interest,for to me bourgeois and self-interest are one and the same.Comrade Mazdak ... did Comrade Stalin enjoy more material comforts than the poor among the Russians? ... if the answer is yes,then he indeed was a powerhungry monster who cared only for his own well-being.Dictators such as Comrade Stalin,Hitler,Mao,Mussolini,etc,were nothing more than mob bosses who kept their people servile through oppression and murder.As long as rulers live in palaces while their subjects live in horrible shacks,as long as rulers are fat while their subjects starve to death,as long as rulers wear the best of clothes while their subjects are dressed in rags,etc,there is no justice nor equality. - Karo

(Edited by Kehoe at 9:18 pm on Nov. 30, 2002)

[Mazdak]

Quote: from peaccenicked on 5:37 pm on Nov. 30, 2002
This as a link to the standard marxist inerpretation
of Stalin's betrayal of socialism.
You are wrong about the controversy betwen anarchists and marxists. However, as Lenin said we have more in common with anarchists than reformists.
In my books we have nothing in common with the glorifiers of the class traitor Stalin.
http://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/.../world/ch06.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/james-clr/works/world/ch06.htm)



Peaccenicked, this will sound repetitive, but Marxist.org is a trotskyist source. I will read through it, but i know it to be false. That website is not a reliable source on Stalin.

[Umoja]

Everyone is a Trotskyist to you Mazdak! Howard Zinn? Trotskyist! Eugune V. Debs? Trotskyist! Noam Chomsky? Trotskyist! Robert Mugabe said something bad about Stalin?! Trotskyist!

Geez, everyone is an enemy to you....

[Guest]

Stalinism is system which shouldn't be used unless necessary, and what you all have forgotten to realise is that in a communist economy, stalinism is necessary. If a liberal hippy wonderland was the answer to all the world's problems it would have been done long ago, but it hasn't been. Idealism doesn't do anything, but realism does, without being a realist, without realising that the only real chance for another communist nation would be if it had stalinism as a goverment, is stupid, and idealist.

Keep dreaming, and make sure to tell me when you have you communist utopia.

[Guest]

Stalinism is cruel, I don't want to deny what stalin did, I know he didn't commit as many crimes as they say, but I don't want to paint him as a perfect angel. But he did what was necessary.

[Mazdak]

Quote: from Umoja on 2:58 am on Dec. 1, 2002
Everyone is a Trotskyist to you Mazdak! Howard Zinn? Trotskyist! Eugune V. Debs? Trotskyist! Noam Chomsky? Trotskyist! Robert Mugabe said something bad about Stalin?! Trotskyist!

Geez, everyone is an enemy to you....


Have you ever been to Marxist.org? It is so obviously trotskyist it is disgusting

[Emmanual Goldstein]

Goddamn dude. Fucking chill for a second.

I got a few ganja brownies left from the batch I made. you need them far more than me.

1. Not every leftist who disagrees with you is an a Trotskyist. Some are. Some aren't. Using "Trotskyist" as a slur for anything that vaugely riles you makes you seem like a moron.

2. You have absolutely no fucking clue what anarchism is all about. Anarchists were setting up a truly egalitarian democratic society in Catalonia in the 30s. Your boys fucked it up.

3. Kehoe: that's some bullshit you're spoutin about sparin the rod spoilin the child. The killings carried out by children today are a reaction against alienation and the meaninglessness of our lives. I'm not saying that they're a constructive reaction, but I don't know a single kid in my generation who doesn't feel alienated, bored, and depressed.

[peaccenicked]

clr james was a Trotskyist once you seem to be blind to his criticism of Trotsky. You are like the cappies attacking sources not arguments.

''I will quote my first post again.
All most everybody inside and outside the international labour movement knows but them. They are like flat earthers pulling out maps and calling Gallileo niave. They do not listen to any evidence against them.
LIKE THEISTS WHO TRUST THE BIBLE.


While the rest of us are supposed to believe that counter revolution is socialism.


How long do we have to treat these morons seriously?''

[Ymir]

As long as they are the only productive leftists.

[peaccenicked]

All they produce is poison....to the very life blood of socialism. They try to replace the libertine vein of marxism with authoritarianism. Equalitarianism with the cult of the personality. Anti statism with Statism. Death, destruction and mayhem with the political and cultural development of the working class and its allies.
Lies with truth and science with a pernicious ideology
akin to the Spanish inquisition.

[Kehoe]

Shalom and L"hayyim Comrade Goldstein ... oh those poor little confused souls that are alienated,bored and depressed because they must find no meaning in life ... that may work with the liberals but not with those that are aware of human nature.These young hooligans are little monsters who have been given too much liberty and absolutely no directives as concerns integrity.While it is largely the fault of parents,the government is equally responsible for enacting far too strict protective laws regarding the correction of children.Into this equation must also be thrown the fact that these little feinds are spoiled rotten,as products of democratic capitalism with its ultra-liberalism they are handed everything on a silver platter and allowed to run wild.Theres this idiotic t.v. ad that depicts a small girl scolding her parents while whispering to the camera ... such a kid should become acquainted with a strap and solitary confinement.Comrade Goldstein ... since you choose to defend yourself and other out-of-control youth perhaps you should drop the pretense of socialism ... for if you cling to the fringe benefits of a capitalist society why bother your head with promoting yourself as anything other than a capitalist at heart?!So life is meaningless to you ... of course it is,for those who have everything handed to them grow to appreciate nothing!I simply want you to understand that you may whine to others and get their sympathy ... but you cant snow everyone.I read in a book once,"The full soul loatheth a honeycomb,but to the hungry soul the bitterest thing tastes sweet"(somewhat paraphrased)but the just of it,"One who lacks nothing appreciates nothing,one that has nothing appreciates even the smallest thing".The mere fact that you declare your alienation,boredom and depression is the greatest indicator that your main concern is none other than yourself ... and self-interest has nothing in common with socialism.Thats exactly the point ... what else could these capitalist kids be but egoists wrapped up in their own little world?I ve seen these little reprobates who manipulate their parents and their supposed friends,petty little whinners who think that the world somehow owes them,they go about singing woe is me and threatening suicide for more attention.A man once approached rabbi Akiba and told the old rabbi that he was contemplating suicide to which the rabbi replied,"Be sure to use a strong rope".These people who lock themselves away in their own little self-induced delusional world in which they envision themselves as the sun around which all else revolves were they to withdraw from the material support of the world they would soon starve to death and their petty little worries would come to an end.Oh the sorrows of todays youth and all the perplexities they must face and hardships they must endure ... "Mom,dad ... these clothes are out of fashion now if you dont buy me the newest fad clothes my friends will laugh at me and I ll just die" or ' Tommy has a new car straight off the assembly line but you expect me to drive this 2000 model,I wish you d never had me because you treat me so bad,besides,what good is this pack of Trojans if I cant score because of last months clothes and an old car".Theres five tons more of such horrible things todays kids must suffer but enough said ... go and complain to your liberal supporters ... you ll get no sympathy here. - Karo

(Edited by Kehoe at 6:29 am on Dec. 1, 2002)

[Cassius Clay]

Peacenicked you continue with your rants while completly ignoring that what I said was NOT a lie. Yet no response, that seems to be a familiar trait with you.

[Man of the Cause]

Oh please, another Trotskyists vs. Stalinists thread. There is already so bloody lot of 'em. And all of them contain the SAME people having the SAME arguments all over and over again! Besides, this is Us vs. Cappies! We should be destroying capitalist arguments here, not fighting each other! I'm slowly begining to support the idea of one thread where you could settle this, once and for all.

[Mazdak]

Quote: from Man of the Cause on 4:27 pm on Dec. 1, 2002
Oh please, another Trotskyists vs. Stalinists thread. There is already so bloody lot of 'em. And all of them contain the SAME people having the SAME arguments all over and over again! Besides, this is Us vs. Cappies! We should be destroying capitalist arguments here, not fighting each other! I'm slowly begining to support the idea of one thread where you could settle this, once and for all.


I agree, one thread who's title does not begin with "stalinists: ignorant bastards"

[Mazdak]

The claim i made was valid. Marxist .org is trotskyist. Thus i expect extreme biased information. I cant rely on such biased information on stalin.

and unlike the theists, we can prove our case. Once again, where are the bodies? When i see 50 million bodies, when i see 20 million bodies, when i see 10 million bodies of people unjustly killed, i will denounce Stalin. But since they dont exist, your argument is null.

and I know exactly what anarchy is. That is why i think it should be crushed.

Also please note that Stalinism is evolutionary. IT is not simply pointless dictatorship, but it has the same goal as what any other so called communist would want.

[Kehoe]

Comrade Mazdak ... I am convinced that youre quite intelligent but do understand that your statement regarding the evolutionary aspect of Stalinism is a complete denial of facts.The dictatorship of Comrade Stalin was a concrete state in which there was no possibility for progression,the rule of Comrade Stalin was as rigid and unchangeable as any other tyrant,and it only collapsed with his eventual death.Consider yourself and other so-called Stalinists who continually argue in defense of Stalinism,this in itself proves that it is a static ideology that thrives on conservative principles which allows no room for criticism or ideological improvement ... it is completely self-serving.It is the misfortune of men that they forget ... and as long as the crimes of Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia are implanted in the minds of the majority of mankind perhaps such cruel regimes will never again be allowed to emerge.Comrade Mazdak ... to deny the bloody purges and untold murders committed during Comrade Stalins dictatorship is no better than denying the holocaust carried out by the Nazis.As for anarchy ... I too am against such an ideology ... there will always be need of a state and laws by which to govern;however,both the state and its laws must be validated by acceptance of the masses and never by means of force and oppression.The military and the police are for the defense of their people,whereas ruthless dictators employ these as a means to oppress the people.Democracy and dictatorships can never co-exist. - Karo

[Mazdak]

I dont have time to reply to the entire post, however, i am simply a defender of stalin. I personally don't believe what many stalinists believe, there will always be disagreements, but the idea is always evolutionary. It is a personal belief of mine in that case. The idea of having the strong dictatorship is simply to make the necessary reforms and force people to accept them in order to achieve communism when the time is right. So as not to jump into communism too soon. ("Great Leap style" ) Stalin was a faithful marxist leninist and intended on doing this...

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embas...13/stal-ml.html (http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embassy/7213/stal-ml.html)

(Edited by Mazdak at 6:43 pm on Dec. 1, 2002)

[Cassius Clay]

I must admit Comrade Kehoe comparing people who defend Stalin to holocaust deniers is a very good tactic when it comes to scaring anybody who is willing to look beyond the propaganda and do a bit of research.

Just a simple point that I've allready made, do you seriously expect anyone to believe that the current Russian government would not uncover at least a 100,000 of these tens of millions dead bodies which are barely half a century old when teams of researchers are capable of finding the remains of a 30,000 year old mamall?

Just like Mazdak said, we would denounce Stalin immediantly if it came to light that he had butchered millions of even tens of thousands. But by 1992 it was obvious that that was NOT the case.

Once again there is no such thing as 'Stalinism'. You call us 'static', while the only Socialist State that has survived modern times was the one in Albania up till 1985, that nation was led by Hoxha who greatly admired the works of Joseph Stalin. If life was a hell there then why was he voted the greatest Albanian in history and why did the workers and peasants carry out the only armed revolution in Europe this side of the Cold War?

While the theory of 'Permanent Revolution' died when more than 95% of the CPSU voted against it. 'Social Democrats' or other sel-proffesed 'Liberals' lost any respect when they approved the war credits in the summer of 1914.

[Guest]

I really wish you'd use paragraphs komrade Kehoe

[redstar2000]

I, too, wish kehoe would use paragraphs...if only so people just wouldn't hit "page down" when they come to his posts, would actually see what he says.

As far as I am concerned, the right of women to control their own reproductive systems is ABSOLUTE!

As far as I am concerned, the right of gay people to participate in ALL aspects of social life without restraint is ABSOLUTE!

As far as I am concerned, the right of women to participate in ALL aspects of social life without restraint is ABSOLUTE!

As far as I am concerned, the use of violence against small children is A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY!

Should it ever fall to my fate to sit in judgment over those who would keep gay people or women down or who would use violence against small children...well, let's just say on THESE issues I might just turn to Comrade Stalin for some PRACTICAL advice on appropriate responses.

SOME things are NOT to be "tolerated".

[peaccenicked]

Trotskyist sources are unreliable to you .why? because you cant handle the truth.
You dont respond to the truth. Clr James is not liar like you and your sources and talk of fair elections .
Pure bullshit.
Purges, climate of fear, stalin's manipulation of bolshevik divisions.
You are making pure mugs of yourselves. You have not answered me at all.
All you have is a few snapshots of falsification no coherent theory based on historical materialism.
Mass murder is not evolutionary .
Albania was never socialist. It was another totalitarian statelet. http://www.albania.co.uk/dp/

The Stalinists are blatant liars and conmen.

[Cassius Clay]

Wow, Peacenicked by posting that link to the 'Democrat' Berisha you've just proven how anti working-class you are, who next did Hitler liberate the German people from the obvious tyranny of the 'Stalinist' KPD?

Read.

''ATHENS, Greece - U.S. secretary of state Madeleine
Albright called for a NATO mission to be sent to Albania to
come up with a proposal on how the Atlantic imperialist
alliance can help "in reestablishing a functioning and
democratically controlled army in that country." Albright
made this statement while touring Yugoslavia to push for
compliance with the Washington-crafted Dayton accords the
U.S. government forced the rival regimes in the Yugoslav
republics to sign in 1995.
"Albania is an example of a pattern of crisis situations
we face, and will have to face in the future in Europe,"
Albright said, according to the May 31 Eleftheroptipi'a, one
of the main Greek dailies. "It reflects the need for NATO
and the Euro-Atlantic Council of Cooperation to focus their
efforts, working with the Organization for Security and
Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), on preventing conflicts."
Meanwhile, the Italian government announced it will send
more troops to Albania before the June 29 elections take
place to augment its 2,500-strong detachment already there
in that Balkan country.
There are more than 6,500 imperialist troops in Albania,
led by the Italian government along with eight other regimes
in Europe. The occupying forces in Albania aim to quell the
working-class rebellion which began in early January against
the devastating consequences of capitalist "market reforms"
imposed by the pro-imperialist regime of President Sali
Berisha.
The revolt has thrown into utter crisis the rule of the
bureaucratic caste that has for decades controlled political
power in this Balkan workers state. The NATO military force,
Albright said "will aid in reestablishing a functioning
army." During the popular revolt, Albania's armed forces
have been virtually dissolved, with many units and thousands
of individual soldiers and officers joining the rebels.
One of the main pretexts the imperialists use to justify
their deepening intervention is the "guarantee of free and
fair elections." The imperialist troops will be patrolling
the streets in cities throughout Albania and guarding poll
stations. The OSCE is sending about 400 "observers." Franz
Vranitsky, the OSCE coordinator in Albania, spoke in Rome's
parliament on May 26, urging the Italian government to
prolong the mandate of the imperialist occupation for
another three months.
On June 2 the Italian government recalled Paolo Foresti,
its ambassador to Tirana, back to Rome. Foresti had voiced
open support for Berisha in taped discussions with
Democratic Party (DP) leader Tritan Sehou, which were
published by an Albanian daily. Rome quickly responded,
fearing Foresti's statements could spark resistance to its
occupying troops by Albania's armed workers and farmers.
The demand for Foresti's recall to Italy was supported,
among others, by Albanian Prime Minister Bashkim Fino.
Fino's Socialist Party (SP) and Berisha's DP are the main
groups in the national coalition government in Tirana
representing competing layers within the bureaucratic caste.
Under pressure from the occupying forces, the SP and the
DP agreed to hold the elections hoping to put an end to the
workers' struggle.
Both parties accuse each other for being responsible for
the crisis facing the rule of the privileged social layers
they represent. On May 27 the SP organized a protest rally
against the "state of emergency" that has continued to be
enforced since the beginning of the revolt. The SP also
demanded that Berisha hand over control of the SHIK,
Albania's secret police, as he had promised under the
agreement to hold the elections.
About 10,000 people participated in the protest rally
held at Tirana's soccer stadium, chanting "Sali you dog, we
will hang you' and `give us our money back." The ousting of
Berisha and reimbursement for the money they lost in the
"pyramid" schemes are the main demands of the popular
revolt. The "pyramids" were investment scams endorsed by
Berisha's government in which hundreds of thousands lost
their life savings after their collapse.
While holding some poorly attended election rallies in
northern Albania, Berisha has continued his terror campaign
against working people. Eight people were wounded after a
bomb exploded on a bus in central Tirana. The bomb went off
10 minutes before the nine o'clock curfew that is imposed
under the state of emergency measures. The day before,
another bomb exploded in a cafeteria at Tirana's Skederbey
Square wounding more than 20 people. The cafeteria's owner
is Vice Minister of Public Order Lous Perpale, who is a
leader of the SP.
While blaming Berisha for the attack, Perpale said that
the action aim "to repeat the elections with the violence
and fraud of March 1996." The DP holds the majority of seats
in parliament after those rigged elections.
Pieter Arbnore, president of Berisha's parliament in
Tirana, reiterated the DP's position that "a precondition
for the lifting of the state of emergency is the dissolution
of the rebel's committees." In agreeing to hold the vote,
Fino has also called for their dissolution.
But the rebel councils have refused to disband. The
armed workers and farmers and the Committees for National
Salvation, born in the heat of the revolt, remain the main
obstacle in the ability of the imperialist occupying forces
and Tirana's national coalition government to subdue the
working class in Albania.''

If you want me to provide more details on the election fraud (the Communists were voted in) in 1996 then I will. If life was such a hell then why was Hoxha voted the greatest Albanian in one of them millenium poles, even when his wife was jucked in prison and his grave torn up, by your 'Democrat' Berisha, who is nothing more than a NATO puppet?

[Cassius Clay]

Oh and as you can see that comes from a anti-Hoxha (probably Trotskyite) source, describing Hoxha's regime as beurcratic. So don't go screaming evil 'Stalinist' source this time.

[peaccenicked]

I was only pointing out that Albania was no longer Stalinist.
I would endorse the following
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/62/025.html

[lifetrnal]

Butcher,

You are saying that you are a social-rightist and an economic leftist? Like.... NATIONAL-SOCIALISM? So how are you not a facist? I also think that its quite funny, Stalinists on this board with one breath will denounce democracy then claim the rebirth of their movment in recent elections in Russia.
The truth is this: Stalin was an authoritarian bastard. His brand of "socialism" amounted to no more than Red Facism. I firmly believe, that those of you in our movement who wish to claim Stalin as a member, then you should also include the National-Socialism of the nazis.
And yes, I am a libertin'. I am proud of it. The paramount goal of this movement should now and always be for human freedom. How could one desire any less? Just as freedom means nothing to those with no bread, so to does economic justice mean nothing to those who are being brutalized and oppressed by the tyranny of the authoritarian state.
Lasltly, yes I am an American. I am proud to be a part of the American movement. A movement that I assure IS real. As Castro says, the revolution is in the hands of those who are living in America, the belly of the beast. Besides, my comrade is right, socialism belongs to the future of ALL humanity. Not to the Europeans, the Chinese, The Russians, those in latin-america. It belongs to all of us. If you believe anything else you are a fool, and in truth, not a leftist at all.



(Edited by lifetrnal at 5:09 am on Dec. 4, 2002)

[Guest]

Quote: from peaccenicked on 4:34 am on Dec. 2, 2002
Trotskyist sources are unreliable to you .why? because you cant handle the truth.
You dont respond to the truth. Clr James is not liar like you and your sources and talk of fair elections .
Pure bullshit.
Purges, climate of fear, stalin's manipulation of bolshevik divisions.
You are making pure mugs of yourselves. You have not answered me at all.
All you have is a few snapshots of falsification no coherent theory based on historical materialism.
Mass murder is not evolutionary .
Albania was never socialist. It was another totalitarian statelet. http://www.albania.co.uk/dp/

The Stalinists are blatant liars and conmen.


Quite the opposite, i value the truth and i am 100% sure that even if stalin was a bastard, the trotskyists would make him seem far worse. It would be like looking up a viable biography on George Bush written by Osama Bin Laden.

I would say far more but i cannot as the computer i am using is slow and ineffecient.

I am almost 100% sure that the reason i am still not able to view this website on my cable modem and have to rely on this goddamned ridiculously slow 56k is not purely by "accident."

If so i would like to implore how exactly i broke any type or rule whatsoever, or if it isnt just proof that you anti stalinists have no backbone and have to rely on "silencing" opponents rather than actual debate. I have not made any racist remarks, and i am neither a national socialist or a national bolshevik, so i have yet to break a single rule put up by malte, unless of course, you take the cowards way out and change the rules to suit yourselves.
One thing i can assure to you is that whether or not you actaully ban me, this is not the last you will see of me, as i have many computers and new ip addresses i can access.

If you havent blocked me, my sincere apologies, but i highly doubt this is the case.

This is mazdak BTW.

[peaccenicked]

What a pathetic post. You have not examined history to any depth at all. you are too stupid to see why you are bringing socialism into disrepute. If you are silenced on a che lives site, it is because you are peddling anti socialist poison and moronically insist you are not.
However I suspect it is a temporary technical fault.
Here is link to one of large holes in your memory of history.
http://www.dkrenton.co.uk/serge.html

[new democracy]

peaccenicked, while i am not a fan of hoxha, the democratic party of albania is a capitalist party, and the elections they "won" in 1,996 were probably not that fair. already in 1,997 they had to resign and the socialist party(former communists)replaced them.

[peaccenicked]

Quote: from peaccenicked on 10:43 am on Dec. 2, 2002
I was only pointing out that Albania was no longer Stalinist.
I would endorse the following
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/62/025.html

ND you seemed to miss this.