Northern Ireland; (hypothetical situation)

[Holden Caulfield]

if a socialist government did get into power and remained there being an established power,

what would be done with Northern Ireland, and what would you like to see happen?

*keep the union?
*Independace?
*allowed to rejoin Eire?

*a public vote to decide the issue?

i wondered how the situtation would be delt with by socialists...

[Zazaban]

*a public vote to decide the issue.

[Yehuda Stern]

The Leninist stand is that Marxists from oppressor nations must support the right of formerly oppressed nationalities to secede from the union, and that Marxists from the oppressed nationalities must advocate keeping the union.

I don't really understand from your post where you meant to place the workers' government you hypothesize about, but if you mean one in Britain, for example, than that government - if it is a workers' government - would realize that it has no right to "do" anything with Northern Ireland independent of the decision of the Irish masses. So if that's what you meant, your question is phrased in a somewhat unfortunate manner.

BTW, I know this is being somewhat petty, but I don't like the idea of revolution as a "socialist government getting into power." It sounds reformist, even though you probably did not mean it that way. It's much better, in my opinion, to say "if the revolution won in" Britain, Ireland, etc.

[Panda Tse Tung]

Popular vote wont help, the Protestants (read: British colonialists) have a majority-share in Northern Ireland (of about 60%). The Catholics (read: Irish) are heavily discriminated against. I think Northern Ireland is a legitimate part of Ireland, but the issue as a whole is really complex and i still think it is up to the Irish to decide.

[Dr Mindbender]

well first of all i think you'd see an upsurge in violence.I think Loyalists would violently oppose any change to the status quo to the bitter end, even if it was voted for democratically. so youd have to deal with that somehow.

It would take an education process of informing protestant workers why they should support change in order to de-rug the populist support of the loyalist paramilitaries. Until then, changing the political set up isnt feasible.

[Panda Tse Tung]

It would take an education process of informing protestant workers why they should support change in order to de-rug the populist support of the loyalist paramilitaries. Until then, changing the political set up isnt feasible.

Well, maybe an even more important aspect might be factually uniting the Catholics. I mean, their mostly 'united' as in their looking in the same direction to some extend. But not united.

[Dr Mindbender]

Well, maybe an even more important aspect might be factually uniting the Catholics. I mean, their mostly 'united' as in their looking in the same direction to some extend. But not united.
i'm somewhat worried about the potentially divisary activities of the McCartney sisters (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4343605.stm)

[Panda Tse Tung]

Wow, i didn't know that.

And all that bullshit, but in the meanwhile saying things like:

Catherine understands why the IRA was reluctant to admit its link to her brother's murder, she realises the historical reasons why the IRA did not hand over the killers to the police, but that does not mean she thinks it was right. Quite the opposite.

Do they have a big influence on Republican community's?

[Dr Mindbender]

Wow, i didn't know that.

And all that bullshit, but in the meanwhile saying things like:


Do they have a big influence on Republican community's?

i'm guessing theyre splitting them down the middle.

Which is obviously bad for the organisation and solidarity of the broad republican movement. Probably explains why the British press is so in love with them.

[Pogue]

All due respect, but the crimes commited by the people who killed this guy were awful, this guy was himself a supporter of Sinn Fein, and lets face it militant groups dubbing themselves 'the IRA' in the 21st century arent fighting for people of Northern Ireland anymore. These women are doing whats right, and as Gerry Adams himself said "I want to make it absolutely clear that no one involved acted as a republican or on behalf of republicans." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Robert_McCartney)
The guys who murdered Robert McCartney have no legitimate place in the Irish Republican movement. The cause for left wing republicanism must be taken up peacefully by parties like Sinn Fein.

[Dr Mindbender]

All due respect, but the crimes commited by the people who killed this guy were awful, this guy was himself a supporter of Sinn Fein, and lets face it militant groups dubbing themselves 'the IRA' in the 21st century arent fighting for people of Northern Ireland anymore. These women are doing whats right, and as Gerry Adams himself said "I want to make it absolutely clear that no one involved acted as a republican or on behalf of republicans." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Robert_McCartney)
The guys who murdered Robert McCartney have no legitimate place in the Irish Republican movement. The cause for left wing republicanism must be taken up peacefully by parties like Sinn Fein.

I'd like to know what PRC-UTE and zoolander has to say.

[Pogue]

Well thats what I have to say. What do you think?

[Dr Mindbender]

Well thats what I have to say. What do you think?
i dont know the ins and outs of the night in question so i'm not going to comment.

From what i heard Robert McCartney was making lewd suggestions at one of the IRA men's wives in his drunken state. I dont know if thats true or not but if you're stupid enough to do that you cant really complain about what you get.

Sort of like sticking your head in the lion's mouth.

[Redmau5]

i'm somewhat worried about the potentially divisary activities of the McCartney sisters (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4343605.stm)

Well I think the McCartney sisters are quite entitled to look for their brother's killers. It isn't really dividing anyone except Sinn Fein and the IRA, two wholly reactionary organisations anyway. I don't believe that this murder was in anyway sanctioned by the IRA leadership, but it still doesn't take away from the fact that this was a pretty brutal murder committed by IRA members.

As for the national question in Ireland, I don't think there's any prospect of a socialist government ever coming to power in Northern Ireland, at least not through parliamentary means. Sectarianism in NI was institutionalized through the Good Friday and St. Andrew's Agreements, basically meaning that the Northern Irish parliament has to be made up of political parties representing one side or the other. Such sectarianism helps keep the working-class in NI divided, and as long as such division continues its hard to see the protestant working-class ever accepting a united Ireland.

That's why it's extremely important to campaign on class issues when dealing with protestant workers. The anti-water charges campaign which has been running for the last few years is one example of an issue which can help unite workers. We (the Socialist Party) take the view that a socialist united Ireland will be impossible to achieve unless we have the protestant working-class in the north on board. If (and when) the protestant workers are won over to the ideas of socialism (along with workers in the Republic of Ireland as well), the border will disappear anyway. Basically, Ireland can only successfully be united on a socialist basis, not a capitalist one.

Of course, PRC-UTE will probably have a slightly different opinion. :p

[spartan]

From what i heard Robert McCartney was making lewd suggestions at one of the IRA men's wives in his drunken state. I dont know if thats true or not but if you're stupid enough to do that you cant really complain about what you get.

If i was saying lewd things about another person's wife i would expect to be beaten up not killed.

The fact that no one in the pub is willing to come forward as a witness ("We were in the toilet at the time" most of them said) and the destroying of video evidence from a CCTV camera by the landlord (Which was the only other bit of evidence that the police could have used seeing how every other person in the pub at the time apparently saw nothing) suggests that the IRA is bullying people into "keeping quiet".

This guy's murder has nothing to do with politics. It doesnt matter what political affiliation the victim or offender/s had all that matters is that a man was killed and the people who killed him should face justice.

What these sisters are doing is brave and will hopefully be the begining of the end of the intimidation of people by both republicans and loyalists in Northern Ireland.

I am not holding my breath though.

[Pogue]

i dont know the ins and outs of the night in question so i'm not going to comment.

From what i heard Robert McCartney was making lewd suggestions at one of the IRA men's wives in his drunken state. I dont know if thats true or not but if you're stupid enough to do that you cant really complain about what you get.

Sort of like sticking your head in the lion's mouth.

Following your logic, its fine to murder someone for 'making lewd suggestions" at someones wife. No, these bastards killed a man because they're angry and psychotic monsters. No justification, and the man didn't do anything to deserve being killed.

[Dr Mindbender]

Following your logic, its fine to murder someone for 'making lewd suggestions" at someones wife. No, these bastards killed a man because they're angry and psychotic monsters. No justification, and the man didn't do anything to deserve being killed.

im not condoning their actions, im simply saying that all things considered, bearing in mind the people you're dealing with saying rude things to an IRA man's wife is an extremely stupid thing to do unless you have a death wish.

It's like saying you should blame a driver for knocking down an idiot who runs across a motorway without looking both ways first.

[Seven Stars]

Socialism could never exist in Ireland while there is partition.

[DancingLarry]

I'm surprised no one here has pointed out one of the fundamental fallacies of partition, that any referendum on the future of Eire should be somehow determined only by the populace of the six-county statelet. The historical position of Irish Republican Socialists has been a 32-county referendum, to make partition on option, not the operative assumption.

[Panda Tse Tung]

Well I think the McCartney sisters are quite entitled to look for their brother's killers.Well i think the sentiment presented in that article in combination with the fact that the British media is drooling over them as far as i can read, it is more of a political issue. Rather then them actually wanting to get justice (I'm not saying they don't want to, just that it's far more political then just that).



It isn't really dividing anyone except Sinn Fein and the IRA, two wholly reactionary organisations anyway. How so?


I don't believe that this murder was in anyway sanctioned by the IRA leadership, but it still doesn't take away from the fact that this was a pretty brutal murder committed by IRA members.Well yeah, but for example:
Marinus van der Lubben (Dutch Communist) had set fire to the Reichstag and was trialled for it. Jet, even though the Nazi's had every opportunity to do so they never directly linked it to the Communist Party of Holland. So apparently even the Nazi's felt like it was politically retarded to do so. Now these are individual IRA-members who commited a crime (as far as i understand), how does that equal the IRA being bad (which is what it looks like to me, at least in the article provided by Ulster Socialist)?

edit: anyways, their endorsed by Bush and Brits. What else needs to be said?

[KrazyRabidSheep]

In my own little world, I would like to see a vote. I'd like for N. Ireland to join Erie through said democratic vote.

However, I don't see the Orangemen voting thus, so that is absolute and pure bullshit fantasy.

[Devrim]

Well yeah, but for example:
Marinus van der Lubben (Dutch Communist) had set fire to the Reichstag and was trialled for it. Jet, even though the Nazi's had every opportunity to do so they never directly linked it to the Communist Party of Holland. So apparently even the Nazi's felt like it was politically retarded to do so.

This analogy falls down on the fact that he wasn't a CP member.

Devrim

[Panda Tse Tung]

This analogy falls down on the fact that he wasn't a CP member.

He was a member of the Communist Youth Movement affiliated to the Communist Party. Nevertheless, the Nazi's could have easily used it as an excuse. He was a Communist. And yes, their IRA-members but the IRA has specifically condemned these actions. So why attack the IRA on it?

another thing i was wondering, in their reference to 'The IRA' is it like the CIRA? Or another current? Or is it the PIRA? Which would be odd.

[Dr Mindbender]

Socialism could never exist in Ireland while there is partition.
i've heard this sentiment thrown around rather a lot without any reasoning behind it. How so?

I'd be inclined to think theres more chance of revolution in the north since people are generally more politically aware than their counterparts in the republic.

The only problem the north has is overcoming the 'orange wall of ignorance'.

[Seven Stars]

i've heard this sentiment thrown around rather a lot without any reasoning behind it. How so?

I'd be inclined to think theres more chance of revolution in the north since people are generally more politically aware than their counterparts in the republic.

The only problem the north has is overcoming the 'orange wall of ignorance'.

Partition benefits the ruling class in Ireland, it keeps the working class divided. Socialism can never come about by a parliamentary road, so the only way it can come about is by revolution. Socialism and National Liberation would come about at the same time, together. For to pursue one, and not the other, would lead to disaster.

[Dr Mindbender]

Partition benefits the ruling class in Ireland, it keeps the working class divided. Socialism can never come about by a parliamentary road, so the only way it can come about is by revolution. Socialism and National Liberation would come about at the same time, together. For to pursue one, and not the other, would lead to disaster.

if you look at the republic though, the celtic tiger has created a band aid against revolutionary sentiment. I'm not convinced that the apetite for change is a great in dublin as it is in the turf lodge or falls road estate.

Dont forget as well, a revolution within britains own borders would be disastrous for the English beourgiose not to mention the repercussions that would have for the US and Brussels. We should support this.

[Seven Stars]

Well the North will be the battleground for this, but I think it would eventually radicalize our comrades in the Free State.

[Dr Mindbender]

Well the North will be the battleground for this, but I think it would eventually radicalize our comrades in the Free State.


My problem is if we pursue an independent socialist ireland this is good but insufficient. If we allow capitalist britain to survive in tandem it's military and economic might would destroy us. Ireland would become 'britain's cuba'.

My hope is by allowing the british institutions and trade unions to linger a while on irish soil post revolution this would create inspirational sentiment to our mainland UK comrades.

[Redmau5]

Well i think the sentiment presented in that article in combination with the fact that the British media is drooling over them as far as i can read, it is more of a political issue. Rather then them actually wanting to get justice (I'm not saying they don't want to, just that it's far more political then just that).

How so?

Well yeah, but for example:
Marinus van der Lubben (Dutch Communist) had set fire to the Reichstag and was trialled for it. Jet, even though the Nazi's had every opportunity to do so they never directly linked it to the Communist Party of Holland. So apparently even the Nazi's felt like it was politically retarded to do so. Now these are individual IRA-members who commited a crime (as far as i understand), how does that equal the IRA being bad (which is what it looks like to me, at least in the article provided by Ulster Socialist)?

edit: anyways, their endorsed by Bush and Brits. What else needs to be said?

I believe Robert McCartney was a Sinn Fein supporter, and so were his family, so I don't think the sisters are dealing with it simply as a political issue.

But why the analogy with the Reichstag fire? It's in no way similar. The IRA are a practically defunct organisation, and the McCartney sisters are simply pursuing a few thugs who happened to members of the IRA at one stage. It has absolutely nothing to do with the IRA's campaign in the past.


How so?Sinn Fein are a reactionary organisation. They are currently sitting in the Northern Ireland executive (something they said they would never do) and are co-operating with the DUP in implementing anti-working class measures such as water charges.

[Panda Tse Tung]

I believe Robert McCartney was a Sinn Fein supporter, and so were his family, so I don't think the sisters are dealing with it simply as a political issue.

He was, but what about his sisters?


But why the analogy with the Reichstag fire? It's in no way similar. The IRA are a practically defunct organisation, and the McCartney sisters are simply pursuing a few thugs who happened to members of the IRA at one stage. It has absolutely nothing to do with the IRA's campaign in the past.

Yes, that raises my previous question, which IRA?
The analogy is there because the IRA denounced the actions committed by these individuals. But the issue is still shown as being a political anti-IRA issue.


Sinn Fein are a reactionary organisation. They are currently sitting in the Northern Ireland executive (something they said they would never do) and are co-operating with the DUP in implementing anti-working class measures such as water charges.

Yeah, i was wondering about that. But an Irishmen told me this was because the fight was going on for so long and they just needed to resolve some issues since it wouldn't be solved in any other way. But you are correct that it might be wrong, i don't know cause i don't have a full grasp of the situation, was just wondering ;).

[BOZG]

Yes, that raises my previous question, which IRA?
The analogy is there because the IRA denounced the actions committed by these individuals. But the issue is still shown as being a political anti-IRA issue.

But the IRA leadership has always used that excuse when its members have been involved in criminality or sectarian attacks or murders. It raises serious questions about the type of individuals that the IRA accepts into their organisation on the one hand but also the culture of fear and repression that the paramilitary groups create in their own communities. There are individual scenarios, true but it's foolish to believe that the IRA are not in some way, directly or indirectly responsible for sectarian atrocities or criminal attacks. Using excuses such as bomb timers being set wrong and as a result, civilians being murdered just doesn't cut it.

[Jordi-FCB]

Their is such thing as a justifiable murder, a murder which is beneficially for society, murdered people who stand in the way of progress and freedom is acceptable but in no other circumstances should it be allowed. Considering imperialism makes me sick, the English government had no right in Ireland in the first place and should of never been in the country which isn't their own! How people get on about the IRA they completely forget the English history wasn't it 1 million deaths due to the famine and 3 million into exile, 800 years of occupation, lack of civil rights for the catholic republicans, the IRA were saints not murders. I remember being young and my Granddad telling me about stories about Ireland and what the English did, I remember one story about the Black and Tans murdering his Granny, for simplely not knowing where her husband was at the time. Some of the things Ireland has had to indure is in acceptable, England’s ashamed of what it did in Ireland for sure, they've lied and covered their mistakes up with complete propaganda attempts, even the education system never mentioned the Troubles In Ireland to me or any of the other students during our time of education and I've just left school.

[spartan]

Their is such thing as a justifiable murder, a murder which is beneficially for society, murdered people who stand in the way of progress and freedom is acceptable but in no other circumstances should it be allowed. Considering imperialism makes me sick, the English government had no right in Ireland in the first place and should of never been in the country which isn't their own! How people get on about the IRA they completely forget the English history wasn't it 1 million deaths due to the famine and 3 million into exile, 800 years of occupation, lack of civil rights for the catholic republicans, the IRA were saints not murders. I remember being young and my Granddad telling me about stories about Ireland and what the English did, I remember one story about the Black and Tans murdering his Granny, for simplely not knowing where her husband was at the time. Some of the things Ireland has had to indure is in acceptable, England’s ashamed of what it did in Ireland for sure, they've lied and covered their mistakes up with complete propaganda attempts, even the education system never mentioned the Troubles In Ireland to me or any of the other students during our time of education and I've just left school.
Two wrongs dont make a right.

Like BOZG i dont buy the IRA's stories about misplacing bombs and having faulty fuses which resulted in the deaths of INNOCENT CIVILIANS WHO HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CONFLICT! (Unless you regard them as guilty by association which is stupid in this instance)

Both loyalists and republicans have a bloody history and i think the true sign of progress in NI is that these groups are now seen as part of the problem instead of the means of solving the problem.

[PRC-UTE]

Well I think the McCartney sisters are quite entitled to look for their brother's killers. It isn't really dividing anyone except Sinn Fein and the IRA, two wholly reactionary organisations anyway. I don't believe that this murder was in anyway sanctioned by the IRA leadership, but it still doesn't take away from the fact that this was a pretty brutal murder committed by IRA members.

As for the national question in Ireland, I don't think there's any prospect of a socialist government ever coming to power in Northern Ireland, at least not through parliamentary means. Sectarianism in NI was institutionalized through the Good Friday and St. Andrew's Agreements, basically meaning that the Northern Irish parliament has to be made up of political parties representing one side or the other. Such sectarianism helps keep the working-class in NI divided, and as long as such division continues its hard to see the protestant working-class ever accepting a united Ireland.

That's why it's extremely important to campaign on class issues when dealing with protestant workers. The anti-water charges campaign which has been running for the last few years is one example of an issue which can help unite workers. We (the Socialist Party) take the view that a socialist united Ireland will be impossible to achieve unless we have the protestant working-class in the north on board. If (and when) the protestant workers are won over to the ideas of socialism (along with workers in the Republic of Ireland as well), the border will disappear anyway. Basically, Ireland can only successfully be united on a socialist basis, not a capitalist one.

Of course, PRC-UTE will probably have a slightly different opinion. :p

Not much different, comrade. The only difference is that I would argue that the six county state blocks the path to workers unity so has to be defeated, but republican socialists argue that the struggle for liberation has to be led by the working class. I just disagree with the part that the working class can be unified on purely economic demands, I think the nature of the sectarian state you've so aptly described blocks this. However I agree completely that we have to get protestant workers on board with us.

[PRC-UTE]

They let the McCartney killers off to keep the peace process on track, imo.

[Panda Tse Tung]

Both loyalists and republicans have a bloody history and i think the true sign of progress in NI is that these groups are now seen as part of the problem instead of the means of solving the problem.

This sentence basically ignores 800 years of Irish history.


There are individual scenarios, true but it's foolish to believe that the IRA are not in some way, directly or indirectly responsible for sectarian atrocities or criminal attacks. Using excuses such as bomb timers being set wrong and as a result, civilians being murdered just doesn't cut it.

I don't know, I'm not gonna speculate on whether or not they we're accidentally set wrong or not.

[PRC-UTE]

Two wrongs dont make a right.

Like BOZG i dont buy the IRA's stories about misplacing bombs and having faulty fuses which resulted in the deaths of INNOCENT CIVILIANS WHO HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CONFLICT! (Unless you regard them as guilty by association which is stupid in this instance)

Well the facts just don't support what you're saying. The vast majority of republican attacks were directed at the occupation forces, that's the simple truth. attacks against civilians, while truly disgusting, were clearly abberations. Mistakes will happen in any military campaign as well- the difference with republicans is they committed less mistakes than most military forces would.

[Redmau5]

Two wrongs dont make a right.

Like BOZG i dont buy the IRA's stories about misplacing bombs and having faulty fuses which resulted in the deaths of INNOCENT CIVILIANS WHO HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CONFLICT! (Unless you regard them as guilty by association which is stupid in this instance)

Both loyalists and republicans have a bloody history and i think the true sign of progress in NI is that these groups are now seen as part of the problem instead of the means of solving the problem.

You don't buy them? Well the fact of the matter is there were bombs which exploded prematurely. The IRA should never have planted bombs in civilian areas in the first place, but that doesn't take away from the fact that some bombs exploded before they were meant to. So whether you buy them or not, it happened.

Spartan, no offense, but you have shown yourself to be extremely ignorant on Northern Ireland matters in the past and it doesn't seem as if much has changed.

[Kurt Crover]

Would not an independent Northern Ireland from both the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland be a more viable option?

[Jordi-FCB]

No that completely wouldn't work, 100% Ireland and it'll be fine

[Panda Tse Tung]

I think it's far more realistic then justs creaming 'no wont work lololololo, 100% ireland jay!´ .

[PRC-UTE]

Would not an independent Northern Ireland from both the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland be a more viable option?

Because of the history of discrimination and the decline in heavy manufacturing there, it wouldn't be a viable state: it depends on the public sector for employment. Also, it would likely crumble as an independent six county state would likely see its border regions merge into the twenty six county republic of Ireland.

[Jorge Miguel]

*allowed to rejoin Eire?
A country cannot 'rejoin' itself. The six counties are Irish territory and always have been. The prospect of holding a referendum on anything other than an all-Ireland basis on the question of unification is ridiculous. The state of northern Ireland was created with an artificial Unionist and Protestant majority as an physical veto against any prospect of unity. The only solution for the Protestant settler who funnily enough are the labour aristocracy in both a historical and contemporary sense is for the destruction of Loyalism and Unionism both ideologically and physically. No ultra-leftist sloganeering about 'class unity' will prevent the inevitable if this hypothetical situation were to become reality.

[Philosophical Materialist]

if a socialist government did get into power and remained there being an established power,

what would be done with Northern Ireland, and what would you like to see happen?

*keep the union?
*Independace?
*allowed to rejoin Eire?

*a public vote to decide the issue?

i wondered how the situtation would be delt with by socialists...

OK, back to the original topic. I am not sure of the question in how its worded, but are you asking if a socialist government got into power in Dublin, Westminster or Stormont?

There is a bit of a contradiction going on with unionism and nationalism within the 6 counties at the moment.

On the one hand, Provisional Sinn Fein are accepting partition and governing on behalf of Britain alongside the DUP. On the surface this gives an impression of weakness for the nationalist movement.

On the other hand, the Good Friday Agreement is dismantling the Scots-Irish protestant labour aristocracy that existed for centuries in British-occupied Ireland. A labour aristorcracy will still exist, but not on the ultra-sectarian basis it did until the 2000s, but merely be on the lines of the upper working class having aspirations for middle class lifestyles.

We are seeing this transformation in that protestants are becoming increasingly agnostic about unionism and the union. Under pressure from the US and the EU, Britain cannot continue to guarantee protestant economic and social supremacy to the protestant workers in its Irish colony, so political unionism is no longer worth his while. In the long-term, this will benefit those arguing for a single Irish state.

I think Irish political unity will occur within the next 30 years, but unfortunately it will be on bourgeois capitalist lines. The end of British occupation will at least be a progressive step, but the battle for a socialist Ireland will continue. Protestant, Catholic, atheist, agnostic and non-Christian workers in Ireland will continue to be exploited by global monopoly capitalism.