Living Standards of Eastern Europe

[Psy]

This is a split of the thread Socialist/Communist MYTHS: Let's hear them (http://www.revleft.com/vb/socialist-communist-myths-t82409/index.html) regarding the living standards of Eastern Europe.

[nvm]

Well to be realistic I know some things first hand.
My grandfather's brother was a comisar in Hoxha's Albania and he had the only car in town!(Wealth of the bureaucrats compared to everyday people!)
Secondly his daughter worked in a textile factory. Due to all the bureaucacy it was difficult to obtain raw materials. So if you ordered raw materials now they would come to the factory in a month or so.So 6 months a year they used to gather around the stove and drink coffee because there were no raw materials ! (Bureaucratic planing of the economy which creates shortages!)
Thirdly my aunt told me that in school the most important subject was the Party's history:confused:. I was like wtf ?
And lastly anyone who criticized the government was imprisoned or executed. So even though you had some valid criticism and you were not a capitalist or nazi or wtv you could be imprisoned just for that.
Clearly life had some advantages like job security and shit but the dissadvantages were ALOT!
As about other Eastern European countries I would say that life was about the same. although I am not sure as I had no relatives there.

[Bilan]

Those are some big claims: can you back them up?

[nvm]

Those are some big claims: can you back them up?

What I stated is what my relatives told me about life in Albania.
How could I back them up?
Go to Greece, get an interview record it and upload it on revleft?
lol

[BIG BROTHER]

being albania, one of the most stalinist countries in the soviet union, nvm's claims don't surprise me at all.

[lvl100]

@nvm are you sure your relative werent living in Romania, and you just confused with Albania ? :laugh:

@Black & Red i cant really testify for nvm, i never been in Albania, but what he said sounds so familiar to me as a Romanian...

But hey, at least we had cars on the street :thumbup1:

-

[Gterl23]

being albania, one of the most stalinist countries in the soviet union, nvm's claims don't surprise me at all.
nvm sounds like a typical bourgeois liberal to me, continually parroting the 'democracy' and 'totalitarianism' lies which the bourgeois sprout.

It's natural that supporters of bourgeois dictatorship will oppose Stalin and Hoxha, seeing as they unreservedly worked towards socialism and the liberation of the working class.

[lvl100]

It's natural that supporters of bourgeois dictatorship will oppose Stalin and Hoxha, seeing as they unreservedly worked towards socialism and the liberation of the working class.


I dont think that idealisation of the former socialists states would help the communist movement.

Thery should be regarded more like experiments.
They had a lot of good parts. They demonstrated that a socialist state its not just an utopia, but a real working ideology, who can turn a country from the stone age to industrialised one.

But to igore their bad parts wouldnt help at all the future revolutions.

[nvm]

@nvm are you sure your relative werent living in Romania, and you just confused with Albania ? http://www.revleft.com/vb/living-standards-eastern-t82658/revleft/smilies2/lol.gif

I am sure guy. I've even been to Albania (after the collapse of "socialism"). Now its worse though. Drugs, crime , poverty etc.




nvm sounds like a typical bourgeois liberal to me, continually parroting the 'democracy' and 'totalitarianism' lies which the bourgeois sprout.



Buddy, not anyone who wants workers democracy is a bourgeois liberal. Actualy no liberal supports democratic workers control of the means of production:laugh:
I critically supported the Eastern block and i critically support Cuba.

[Redmau5]

being albania, one of the most stalinist countries in the soviet union, nvm's claims don't surprise me at all.

I would just like to point out that Albania wasn't in the Soviet Union.

[Red_or_Dead]

First I would like to thank comrade Psy for creating this thread. Nero, if you have any more questions about former Yugoslavia, here is the place.




I would just like to point out that Albania wasn't in the Soviet Union.


Yeah, and it wasnt even its ally from the 1950s on. It was pretty Stalinist (or Hoxhaist, whatever you wanna call it), and Nvm`s post didnt surprise me.




I dont think that idealisation of the former socialists states would help the communist movement.

Thery should be regarded more like experiments.
They had a lot of good parts. They demonstrated that a socialist state its not just an utopia, but a real working ideology, who can turn a country from the stone age to industrialised one.

But to igore their bad parts wouldnt help at all the future revolutions.

I agree. As I said in the "socialist myths" thread, we should simply accept the facts that there were no socialist states that we could put forward as good examples of workers democracies. We may say that they were not all that bad (specially when arguing with conservatives), but none were really "it".

[BIG BROTHER]

I would just like to point out that Albania wasn't in the Soviet Union.

my bad, I always thought that they were part of it, but they just kept themselves somewhat isolated because they considered the rest of the soviet countries revisionists.

[Digitalism]

We let's see. This is Ukraine now. I'm positive it was the same everywhere else around our vicinity. We had a 3 room apartment. My mom was a literature teacher, making 300 rubles a month I think I'll check with her..during those times (80's) that was a very prestiguous salary for a teacher as she says, seeing how the value of a ruble was worth more than the dollar.. Of course, free education all around, socialized healthcare = free. One month vacation. I'll ask a little more and post here. She got that 3 room apartment by actually writing a direct letter to Gorbachev.

[mykittyhasaboner]

my parents hail from yugoslavia, and my grandpa was a Partisan so i have some first hand accounts. to start off, yugoslavia had some kind of workers democracy (im not sure to what extent), the living standards were overall decent and increased where they needed too. the average work day started at around 8 or 10, and ended around 2 or 3, which really isnt bad at all. water, food, and clothing were fairly cheap. of course health care free of charge for all. and people could go work/shop in western europe. although one thing i didnt like, if you werent a member of the communist party, then you had less credentials for a job. and if you were a member, you had a portion of your salary taken away, and given to the managers and bosses, who did almost nothing. capitalist, eh?
o yeah, and a lot of workers stole things from factories, im not sure about the details on that one though...

[Natasha Gonzalez]

My dad worked as a security guard in the Embassy of Venezuela in China. He told me that it was awful there, even worse than Venezuela which was very poor at that time. I don't know a lot of details though. I should ask him some more..

[Mala Tha Testa]

My dad worked as a security guard in the Embassy of Venezuela in China. He told me that it was awful there, even worse than Venezuela which was very poor at that time. I don't know a lot of details though. I should ask him some more..

Venezuela is in South America...

[Natasha Gonzalez]

Venezuela is in South America...

I know....:)

[BobKKKindle$]

Although the living standards in the Soviet bloc were poor in comparison to western Europe and other developed regions, the restoration of capitalism has led to severe attacks on the conditions of the working class and the disintegration of many of the advances which were made possible through social property relations. The average life expectancy for Russian men was sixty four years in 1989, prior to the collapse of the Soviet Union, but had fallen to just fifty seven years by 1994 mainly due to the prevalence of alcoholism and a fall in calorific intake. Tuberculosis was almost eradicated as a disease in the Soviet Union, but the incidence of tuberculosis is now estimated to be 88 cases for every 100,000 inhabitants, compared to a rate of just 4 cases for every 100,000 inhabitants in western Europe. (source (http://www.icl-fi.org/english/wv/archives/oldsite/2003/USSR-809.htm))

[Mala Tha Testa]

I know....:)

they were talking about Eastern Europe, i don't see a connection...

[Natasha Gonzalez]

they were talking about Eastern Europe, i don't see a connection...

I was talking about my dad being a security guard in the embassy of Venezuela in China dummy:)
China doesn't qualify as Eastern Europe but claimed to be socialist nontheless

[Mala Tha Testa]

I was talking about my dad being a security guard in the embassy of Venezuela in China dummy:)
China doesn't qualify as Eastern Europe but claimed to be socialist nontheless

that it did

[lvl100]

Although the living standards in the Soviet bloc were poor in comparison to western Europe and other developed regions, the restoration of capitalism has led to severe attacks on the conditions of the working class and the disintegration of many of the advances which were made possible through social property relations. The average life expectancy for Russian men was sixty four years in 1989, prior to the collapse of the Soviet Union, but had fallen to just fifty seven years by 1994 mainly due to the prevalence of alcoholism and a fall in calorific intake. Tuberculosis was almost eradicated as a disease in the Soviet Union, but the incidence of tuberculosis is now estimated to be 88 cases for every 100,000 inhabitants, compared to a rate of just 4 cases for every 100,000 inhabitants in western Europe.

You know whats funny ( erm...actually its really tragic) ?

That todays main destroyers of the previuos social conditions are exactly the yesterdays "communist" leaders.
The ex nomenklatura, ex KGB leaders etc etc

[Red_or_Dead]

my parents hail from yugoslavia, and my grandpa was a Partisan so i have some first hand accounts. to start off, yugoslavia had some kind of workers democracy (im not sure to what extent), the living standards were overall decent and increased where they needed too. the average work day started at around 8 or 10, and ended around 2 or 3, which really isnt bad at all. water, food, and clothing were fairly cheap. of course health care free of charge for all. and people could go work/shop in western europe. although one thing i didnt like, if you werent a member of the communist party, then you had less credentials for a job. and if you were a member, you had a portion of your salary taken away, and given to the managers and bosses, who did almost nothing. capitalist, eh?
o yeah, and a lot of workers stole things from factories, im not sure about the details on that one though...

Seven wonders of Yugoslavian socialism:

1. Everyone had a job.
2. Even tho everyone had a job, nobody actually worked.
3. Even tho nobody worked, all the plans had been fulfiiled at least 100%
4. Even tho all the plans have been fulfilled at least a 100%, all the stores were empty.
5. Even tho all the stores were empty, everyone had everything
6. Even tho everyone had everything, everyone was stealing.
7. Even tho everyone was stealing, nothing was missing


This is actually a joke, but it is pretty close to truth.

As for workers democracy... In theory yes, not in practice. Workers couldnt decide shit.

[hekmatista]

You know whats funny ( erm...actually its really tragic) ?

That todays main destroyers of the previuos social conditions are exactly the yesterdays "communist" leaders.
The ex nomenklatura, ex KGB leaders etc etc
Not an accident, that.

[Nakidana]

Seven wonders of Yugoslavian socialism:

1. Everyone had a job.
2. Even tho everyone had a job, nobody actually worked.
3. Even tho nobody worked, all the plans had been fulfiiled at least 100%
4. Even tho all the plans have been fulfilled at least a 100%, all the stores were empty.
5. Even tho all the stores were empty, everyone had everything
6. Even tho everyone had everything, everyone was stealing.
7. Even tho everyone was stealing, nothing was missing


This is actually a joke, but it is pretty close to truth.

Here's another one:

Two economic agencies are located opposite each other in a street in Kazan. Both need merchandise from the other's warehouse, but before the deal can take place they need to contact their ministry in Moscow. Moscow is called up and gives its agreement whereafter trains leave Moscow for Kazan with the merchandise.

:lol:

As for living standards, as far as I've understood they were a great deal better than third world standards, but lagging behind standards in the West. Around 1968 a comparison was done by the economic section of the Academy of Sciences in the USSR, between American and Soviet economic structures. The USSR was losing on all fronts - productivity, living standards, technological progress, incentive systems, investment direction and character - except coal and steel...not really the fields you'd want to be leading at that time.

[lvl100]

Seven wonders of Yugoslavian socialism:

1. Everyone had a job.
2. Even tho everyone had a job, nobody actually worked.
3. Even tho nobody worked, all the plans had been fulfiiled at least 100%
4. Even tho all the plans have been fulfilled at least a 100%, all the stores were empty.
5. Even tho all the stores were empty, everyone had everything
6. Even tho everyone had everything, everyone was stealing.
7. Even tho everyone was stealing, nothing was missing


This is actually a joke, but it is pretty close to truth.

.

Ha ha in Romania we had the exact same joke, with exact words.
I wonder what country invented this joke first :)


It was a period ,when living was decent. Those good times ended in the begining of `80. After the shit hit the fan and the good times were gone, those kind of jokes kept the people`s hope in a better future.

[Red_or_Dead]

Ha ha in Romania we had the exact same joke, with exact words.
I wonder what country invented this joke first :)


Lol. Well, it would be interesting to know who was first. But much more interesting is that this joke is actually very close to being true.



Now, I dont know what was it like in other socialist countries (tho I guess it wasnt all that much different), so ill keep to Yugoslavia on this one.

What I noticed is that people who are nostalgic about socialism is not a higher standard of living in terms of income, and how much could they afford back in socialistic times, and how much they can today. At least in Slovenia, where we didnt have to deal with the aftermath of four years of war, most people are much better off in those two aspects. The majority earn more, and can afford more.

The thing is, that today a majority can afford more, while back in socialism there really was no clear majority and minority. Most people (and by most I dont mean 51%. I mean over 90%) of people were pretty much on the same level. There were no such social differences as there are today, when society is increasingly divided into haves and have nots, and a (at least at present) a pretty big mass of people in between.

Back in socialism there were practicly no possibilities for a person to be really poor, just as long as that person was prepared to work. Of course there were beggars and homeless people, but then again, not as many as today. Life was safer. It was safer because people had some basic rights, like free healthcare, free education, equal oportunity, and not nearly as much competition in day-to-day life. All those things are being attacked constantly since the introduction of full-scale capitalism. Now, only basic healthcare is still free. Private education is competing with public, and winning. People are being driven to compete, instead of cooperating. Equal oportunity is giving way to the "rich first" principal.

I think a good summary would be that capitalism offers a lot, but fails to deliver, except for a fortunate few. Socialism offered basic things, and delivered.

Of course, back in socialism, freedom of speech was very limited. Government spent huge amounts of money on the armed forces, instead of spending it to combat more serious problems. There were many things that were wrong, and many things were improved after 1991, but new problems came along.

Note: all of the above are things that I have heard from those people who lived in those times, since I wasnt around back then.

In any case, I think that sums up cold war Yugoslavia vs. Slovenia, as its succesor state. I would much like to hear how it was and is now in other former socialist countries in E. Europe. Over here, people always had a feeling that they live in the only good socialist country in the world, and the rest are just shitholes. Since Im on this site, I learned that that is far for being true, but it still interests me.