Is revolution even possible?

[kerryhall]

Hey all, I am a long time revolutionary leftist. My specific beliefs are not important for these questions.

I hate to be a downer, but I need some reassurance from my comrades.

Is revolution even possible today? If the working class becomes united in a way that revolution might happen, what would stop governments from simply bombing us into submission? What about the military, the police? What about the predator drones, or the SWORD robots currently being used in Iraq? What about fucking nuclear bombs? If the capitalists felt like their position of power was under threat, what would stop them from holding the world ransom with nuclear bombs? :crying:

I have been at this for many years now. I am trying to stay positive and keep up the struggle, but as you all know, it is hard. I hope someone can answer these questions for me.

peace, love, and solidarity comrades,
kerry

[More Fire for the People]

Revolution is doubtfully possible, but better than the alternative: barbarism & death.

[Sam_b]

History shows that it can be done: nobody believed that a socialist revolution could occur in autocratic, Tsarist Russia, but ultimately it did. However, nobody can predict the future and we have to be optimistic. Who knows what will happen in fifty, a hundred years time?

[lvatt]

Remember: the biggest obstacle to success is the fear that success is unreachable.

[Rood Boi]

Hi kerryhall

I would answer your question with these two questions; do the objective forces of capitalism still push the working class to revolution? And is the general trend of capitalism on the decline?

[Lost In Translation]

Hey all, I am a long time revolutionary leftist. My specific beliefs are not important for these questions.

I hate to be a downer, but I need some reassurance from my comrades.

Is revolution even possible today? If the working class becomes united in a way that revolution might happen, what would stop governments from simply bombing us into submission? What about the military, the police? What about the predator drones, or the SWORD robots currently being used in Iraq? What about fucking nuclear bombs? If the capitalists felt like their position of power was under threat, what would stop them from holding the world ransom with nuclear bombs? :crying:

I have been at this for many years now. I am trying to stay positive and keep up the struggle, but as you all know, it is hard. I hope someone can answer these questions for me.

peace, love, and solidarity comrades,
kerry

I know how you feel, kerryhall. I have wrestled with this question a few times as well. However, "Impossible is Nothing" (I just had to quote a capitalist monopoly :(, sorry comrades). But on a more serious note, we are approaching a declining economy, and politicians becoming more "left" (if you could even say that). It is these times, or sometime down the road, where we, as leftists, bring up our platform when everybody realizes that the road to survival is not to feed the big-time players like Wal-mart & co. In the end, it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when.

[gla22]

I don't see it happening in the U.S but I feel like we are reaching the end of a revolutionary doldrums and the new crisis the world faces will unleash a wave of revolutions.

[trivas7]

All epochs in recorded history have ended in a sense of doom and the coming of the Last Days. Only if you believe that bourgeois liberal democracy is the end of human history -- ala Fukayama -- can you stop believing that capitalism will come to an end. :thumbup1:

I found the following article on the future of socialism both sobering and hopeful:

http://www.monthlyreview.org/mrzine/singh291207.html

[victim77]

I believe, in the anarchist world anyways, that revolution is no longer in the hands of the worker but instead in the hands of the students. The future worker, in my opinion, is a much greater revolutionary force then the current worker.

[Psy]

The military is run by a working class, in revolutionary situations mutinies can turn into revolutionary armies. For example one day the US army is against us the next there could be a civil-war within the US army (divisions engaged in armed mutiny fighting against divisions still loyal).



What about the predator drones, or the SWORD robots currently being used in Iraq
What about them? They are proven to be nothing more then expensive toys in Iraq, we can drive over SWORD robots with trucks and crush them into little bits. Predator drones have dinky pay-loads can easily be taken down, even World War II era fighters could run circles around Predators drones and win every time in a dog fight, in Iraq the insurgency simply doesn't have a air force but the revolutionary army that overthrew Mussolini in World War II had more then enough of a air force then to take on all the Predator drones now.




What about fucking nuclear bombs? If the capitalists felt like their position of power was under threat, what would stop them from holding the world ransom with nuclear bombs? :crying:
The ruling class knows use of nuclear weapons on its own population would cause major mutinies throughout the military.

[Charliesoo]

It can be done.

Groups are generally weak when they feel invincible. High up in their towers completely absorbed in their own self-worth.

Anything is possible. Especially when push comes to shove.

[KurtFF8]

I know how it feels to be negative about it but as said, most revolutionary situations don't aren't predicted. The USSR was born as quite a shock. No one in the 50s in the US would have thought that the 70s would feature radical leftist groups engaging in militant action, etc. etc.

The left movement is growing again internationally and it again will present quite a challenge to capital.

[Incendiarism]

The way I see it, humanity is predisposed to turn towards socialism. It can happen in a multitude of ways, through democratic means or revolution.

Perhaps you're having a change of heart, but don't lose sight of the possibility. Maybe turning towards education is the answer, I don't know...

[There is No God!]

Revolution isn't going to happen in a 1st world country any time soon because A) the workers have become too accepting of the capitalist system - B) They see any alternative as an 'unworkable utopia'. It is because of this that I believe we need to focus our attention on the 2nd and 3rd world countries where revolutionary spirit is not dead, only once there is a successful revolution in one of these places will the first world worker change their preconceived pictures of Anarchism/Communism.

[communard resolution]

The military is run by a working class, in revolutionary situations mutinies can turn into revolutionary armies. For example one day the US army is against us the next there could be a civil-war within the US army (divisions engaged in armed mutiny fighting against divisions still loyal).



That's why I believe that it's of utmost importance to get the army and the police on our side. I used to have the "all cops are bastards" attitude, but not anymore - now I just look at them as working class people. It's true that at present they defend the bourgeoisie, but it doesn't need to stay that way. I don't think most cops consciously 'defend the bourgeoisie', many of them are decent people who think they're protecting us from crime etc. If we eventually manage to get them to side with us, what's there to stop us?

Jean-Paul Sartre said that in the 1968 Paris riots, the "revolutionary" students were the children of the bourgeoisie who later moved on to hold middle-class professions and became the new establishment; the cops on the other side of the fence, meanwhile, were the proletariat for whom nothing had changed when the party was over.

When I see some middle-class anarchist at a demonstration ritualistically throwing a brick at a cop just because he or she thinks they're supposed to, I find it nothing but stupid and ridiculous.

[Holden Caulfield]

the Roman Empire Fell,
the Feudan system crumbled,
nations were born of possesions of autocratcs,
the Colonial Empires Fell,
American dominance will end...

capitalism is also only 200ish years old, not an ever present part of human life,

times change just look at history we have already had many revolutions for thousands of years

[Tower of Bebel]

Revolution isn't going to happen in a 1st world country any time soon because A) the workers have become too accepting of the capitalist system - B) They see any alternative as an 'unworkable utopia'. It is because of this that I believe we need to focus our attention on the 2nd and 3rd world countries where revolutionary spirit is not dead, only once there is a successful revolution in one of these places will the first world worker change their preconceived pictures of Anarchism/Communism.


Ideas are not the main obstacle towards a social revolution. The way ideas can dertemine the course of action is determined by material conditions. The permanent battle between capital and work gives raise to alternatives, which also means socialism or marxism, and when capitalism fails to keep the majority of the people satisfied then these alternatives will develop and spread rapidly as a result of revolt against capital.

That's the reason why the Third World has in some way a more revolutionary spirit. The battle between work and capital is less covered by small bribes and the alternatives to capitalism are more wide-spread because capital does in no way satisfy the majority of the peoples over there.

So, material conditions give raise to both revolutionary ideas and revolt. Both are not intirely separated. Both have a more or less dialectical relation. If we succeed at putting them togheter in such a way that they are a guidance for the workers on their way to socialism then we have a solid basis for a serious social revolution.

[nvm]

Is revolution even possible today?
Revolution is possible when a revolutionary situation exists. To ask that question you don't take into account the uneveness of development. Revolution is not possible today in the US, but it is possible today in latin america, pakistan etc. It all has to do with the objective conditions of each country. For example a revolution might be possible in the US in say 20 years, although we cannot predict for sure.



If the working class becomes united in a way that revolution might happen, what would stop governments from simply bombing us into submission?
You said it yourself, if the working class is united. Who is going to bomb us? Bill Gates and Rockefeller who are well known for their abilities into ..bombing? Or the army , and the police who are part of the working class and will be united with the revolutionaries? At least a large part of them.


What about the military, the police?

In a revolutionary situation the workers form armed workers militia. Now now though, I am talking about a revolutionary situation. The police and the army , at least a large part of them will join the revolution in a revolutionary situation.


What about the predator drones, or the SWORD robots currently being used in Iraq? What about fucking nuclear bombs? If the capitalists felt like their position of power was under threat, what would stop them from holding the world ransom with nuclear bombs?

The drones and the robots need a worker ,soldier,programmer in order to be used. Those will join us in a revolutionary situation.
As about the nuclear bombs no soldier in a revolutionary situation will obey a demand saying the he has to bomb his own country. And no general will throw a nuclear bomb let's say in Chicago. That's absurd.
In case of a revolution in let's say Latin America, the won't be nuclear bombs used there by the Americans.
1) Because they will damage a large area and maybe kill capitalists , their possible allies etc
2)Because that would trigger a worldwide condemnation of the US and the workers in other countries would rise in solidarity with the counry/ies hit by atomic bombs just because the workers made a revolution. So that would trigger revolutions in many countries.



So yes a revolution is possible in countries which have a revolutionary situation and it will be possible in countries which will develop a revolutionary situation in some years.


Our duty is to create organizations that will lead the workers into taking power

[Mersault]

Revolution is doubtfully possible, but better than the alternative: barbarism & death.

That doesn't make any sense. How is barbarism or death an alternative to revolution not being possible?

[Mersault]

I thought you people believed in things like "periods of reaction" and so forth. Surely we're in one of those right now and although it may not seem possible to have a revolution that doesn't mean that this period of reaction won't go away. Which I suppose if that's true is pretty likely as capitalism is not very good and long term sustainability. At least not anymore.

[Mersault]

The way ideas can dertemine the course of action is determined by material conditions.

So what idea exist now that is shaped by "material conditions"? What about ideas that are shaped by immaterial ideas like the colour red?

[communard resolution]

I thought you people believed in things like "periods of reaction" and so forth.

Who is "you people", Monsieur Foucault?

[Mersault]

Who is "you people", Monsieur Foucault?

Marxists or "leftists", whatever you want to call yourselves. I've always found it interesting that you name yourselves after a direction.

[Red_or_Dead]

Marxists or "leftists", whatever you want to call yourselves. I've always found it interesting that you name yourselves after a direction.


Whats even more funny is that the left is right.

Now... Youre not exactly a Revolutionary Leftist, are you?

[Mersault]

Youre not exactly a Revolutionary Leftist, are you?

God no! It's far too time consuming.

[communard resolution]

Whats even more funny is that the left is right.

Now... Youre not exactly a Revolutionary Leftist, are you?

He's a poststructuralist, but much like Foucault he'll probably reject that label. He will ask you to define "revolutionary" and "leftist" now.

[Red_or_Dead]

He's a poststructuralist, but much like Foucault he'll probably reject that label. He will ask you to define "revolutionary" and "leftist" now.


Well, whatever he is, he will be a good addition to the OI.

[Mersault]

I'm an upist and have followed those teachings for as long as I remember. Foucault just got in the way and addled by brain. I think the term "post-structuralist" is far too narrowing a description. Do you even know what post-structuralism is? Other than a way of understanding meaning, it's not anything really.

[Mersault]

Well, whatever he is, he will be a good addition to the OI.

What's OI?

[communard resolution]

I think the term "post-structuralist" is far too narrowing a description.

Of course, Monsieur.


Do you even know what post-structuralism is?

No, us people is much too stoopid for that. Anyways, I'm off to bed.

[Red_or_Dead]

What's OI?


Opposing Ideologies. The only forum on RevLeft where people who get restricted can post in. Im guessing you will be pretty soon, if you really arent a Revolutionary Leftist. But that is up to the administration to decide, so ill just STFU here.

And I better not post in here anymore. It seems that today my very presence leads to derailing threads.

[Comrade B]

The United States will not be overthrown soon. It will inevitably destroy itself though. Once the Empire has dissolved, communism will have a beautiful opportunity to rise out of the rubble.

I personally would fight for a large scale revolution in the Empire if it were to happen, but I would know that it is hopeless. After seeing the pictures of what Columbia did to the FARC outpost in Ecuador, I became extremely pessimistic about the idea of armed revolution.

[communard resolution]

What's OI?

1) Opposing ideologies
2) skinhead music

[Mersault]

I like skinhead music sometimes. If they play that a lot, I'd go willingly.

[Mersault]

Opposing Ideologies. The only forum on RevLeft where people who get restricted can post in. Im guessing you will be pretty soon, if you really arent a Revolutionary Leftist. But that is up to the administration to decide, so ill just STFU here.

And I better not post in here anymore. It seems that today my very presence leads to derailing threads.

I always thought the term "leftist" was a bit of an insult. I don't even know what it's supposed to mean. Why would you restrict people who aren't one anyway? Surely there are many interpretations of it in any case, so who decides these things. It seems rather boring to me.

[communard resolution]

Surely there are many interpretations of it in any case, so who decides these things.

I predicted this one, Monsieur Foucault.

[Gterl23]

I believe, in the anarchist world anyways, that revolution is no longer in the hands of the worker but instead in the hands of the students. The future worker, in my opinion, is a much greater revolutionary force then the current worker.
Oh noes, let the world tremble at a petite-bourgeois student revolution, we students have nothing to loose but out chains!:rolleyes:

[kerryhall]

Hey comrades! Thank you all for your kind words. Your responses have certainly helped lift my spirits, and given me more drive to continue the organizing I am working on.

I am honestly terrified of the seemly endless amount of new military hardware being created every day. It scares the shit out of me.

But I believe that capitalism does create the conditions for its own abolition, and I think it is starting to unravel.

By the way, this is one of the most common remarks I hear when I am doing outreach: "Sure, revolution would be nice, but it would be impossible today." Perhaps a good topic for a leaflet?

Thanks again comrades, and if you have more positive things to add, I would love to hear them. :D

Kerry