Self-hate

[Dimentio]

I wonder how prevalent it is with self-hate on behalf of minority groups who have been branded as the "other" in a mistrusting majority society. The reason for my question is this locked thread where a user who was previously banned attempted to return.

I am back (http://www.revleft.com/vb/am-back-t82452/index.html)

I do not know if he is actually homosexual, nor do I care, but do you think feelings of denial such as these are a major alienating factor?

[welshboy]

Damn I feel sorry for that kid.

[TC]

I don't think "ex-gays" or other homophobes who themselves have an objectively same-sex oriented organic sexuality, are actually "self-hating"; thats a variation on smear used against Jewish people who dissent from self-appointed Jewish ideological leaders (who would otherwise accuse them of anti-Semitism).


Instead I think its just a fact that while straight males receive a privileged place in patriarchal institutions, just as there are women and children who accept the patriarchy's ideological foundations, just as there are workers who accept liberal capitalisms ideological foundations, there are also same-sex oriented people who accept patriarchal political positions on homosexuality. They don't hate themselves and they'd probably be homophobes even if they were straight, what they hate are people of their objective conditions that pursue lifestyles incongruent with their ideological principles, especially when those lifestyles are appealing to them. They're homosexual on a biological level but they aren't gay on a social or cultural level in the modern sense and thats what they have disgust for, just as women who are ideologically committed to the patriarchy (female male-chauvinists) don't condemn women in general they condemn socially liberated women.




Damn I feel sorry for that kid.

he's probably faking.

[Prairie Fire]

Well, vanguardians repressed-homosexuality aside, I do remember an incident where a womyn I know who works for a film makers collective (and is black,), got a phone call from a persyn who worked in a school (and was familiar with her). This Persyn wanted her to come in, and talk to one of her students, who was depressed and self loathing, because he was black in a predominantly white school, and felt muted stigmas attached to it.

Also, check this out, (if you haven't allready seen it):

http://www.revmedia.net/aglm.html

[Module]

Well, vanguardians repressed-homosexuality aside, I do remember an incident where a womyn I know who works for a film makers collective (and is black,), got a phone call from a persyn who worked in a school (and was familiar with her). This Persyn wanted her to come in, and talk to one of her students, who was depressed and self loathing, because he was black in a predominantly white school, and felt muted stigmas attached to it.

Also, check this out, (if you haven't allready seen it):

http://www.revmedia.net/aglm.html
Yeah, there was a whole episode of the Tyra Banks show (... <_< ) on this - of people who were hated their own race.
There was a guy who hated being black who saw black people, including himself as ugly, savage and unsophisticated. He was made up to look like a white person for a day, and he went out and he was so happy, and so open and he said "I felt like myself for the first time" (or something along those lines), and said that he felt like people treated him in a completely different way etc.
But the truth was he didn't really look that white - he looked almost unnatural, like a burns victim or something ... (make up can only do so much) and then Tyra asked him to look at himself in the mirror when the make up had been taken off and find something he liked about himself, and then he started crying and the whole thing was so heart wrenching :crying:
...But now I'm going on a bit, the point was,

(And he wasn't the only guy, there were like 2 other guests on the show with the same problem.)

I'm sure everybody's heard of gay people who tried to fancy the opposite sex, rather than face their sexuality? (I know I did, though I'm not and have never been homophobic.)

We're all effected by socially oppressive attitudes in our society, whether we want to admit it or not. Obviously not all social minorities will flat out hate themselves, but we can all recognise how those in socially dominant positions, white straight males etc. are treated differently, better, from those who are not, and it will obviously make some people who are not in that position wish that they were.
I don't think it necessarily makes them hate themselves all the time like in the case of Vanguardian, supposedly (though I have to agree with TC, I don't think he's being serious), or those people I just talked about, but yeah, it definitely would make them feel alienated and ashamed.

[Holden Caulfield]

Yeah, there was a whole episode of the Tyra Banks show (... <_< ) on this - of people who were hated their own race.
There was a guy who hated being black who saw black people, including himself as ugly, savage and unsophisticated. He was made up to look like a white person for a day, and he went out and he was so happy, and so open and he said "I felt like myself for the first time" (or something along those lines), and said that he felt like people treated him in a completely different way etc.

read (or even watch the film of) Malcom X, it is cultural brainwashing,

my Dad is the same with class, he talks of elitist organisations saying the are terrible to be so and yet looks down on 'chavs' and other types of people,

it is cultural brainwashing and a type of social self-hate to make one aspire to keep on trying to climb the capitalist ladder,

self-hate can just be teenage angst, i keep a journal and when i was 15-16 and was having a shit time with a female who might well be satan and other things i could express myself in an extreme way to the point of self-loathing, maybe this is it in Vanguardian?

[TC]

This Persyn wanted her to come in, and talk to one of her students, who was depressed and self loathing, because he was black in a predominantly white school, and felt muted stigmas attached to it.


She might have said that her student was depressed and 'self loathing' because of internalized self-directed racism but just because she thought this was the case and articulated it as such doesn't really address the ontological question of whether or not the condition she thought caused his depression actually existed. Simply ascribing an explanation to an observable condition (such as being depressed) does not in of itself evidence the validity of the explanation.

[Lector Malibu]

I've never hated the fact that I was a homosexual or black for that matter. There have been times that I have not stated I was gay in my life but it was mostly due to privacy issues like on internet forums. I was actually on message board for a long time where there was open homophobia and all kinds of stuff. I guess after being the target of endless internet harassment because of my sexuality I just like to feel things out I guess.

In real life I'm very open about my sexuality. I'm not ashamed of it at all. Thing is though I'm not really overly flamboyant or anything. It's weird some people pick up on it right away and others have no clue. I'm at a point though in my life where it's not like I'm "coming out" I don't think I ever came out in a sense. I've always just tried to be who I am witch I think has alot to do with the way I was raised I guess.

There are people though that do struggle with this issue though. I've known people that have had a hard time accepting they're cultural identity and their sexuality.

Being a minority or being a member of the LGBT community is still very hard in America. It may vary depending where you are regionally never the less it is still difficult. I'm sure it's difficult pretty much no matter where you are I guess.

I can understand why someone would see their culture or they're sexuality as an affliction though. Especially trying to make it through life seen as less than or a "freak"

What I will say to those people is you are not alone, united people can endure many of life's horrible challenges..

[Holden Caulfield]

^^ even if i was a homophobe i would really take the piss outa you, out of fear of being knocked out,

has anybody read Malcom X? he said he observed anti-black rascism in black society as families tried to be whiter as this ment they were more sucessful or civilised,

[Lector Malibu]

^^ even if i was a homophobe i would really take the piss outa you, out of fear of being knocked out,

um thanks I think :) Funny you mention that because my size is an issue that I have actually struggled with accepting over the years. In some ways it has been a great asset and has probably saved me on many occasions combined with my wits. Truth be known I hate it at the same time.

When I was much younger (you know back when the sun was being made) I was actually bullied by kids at school and my older brother. I also was not the size that I am today or had the capability of defending myself really. It's almost like my body became this as a defensive measure.

Yeah there were times in life that I used it to my advantage. I was a bouncer for along time at clubs and private after parties.

Really though sometimes I just wish I was not this way. I don't need to be this way anymore. It's impossible for me to walk down the street towards nightime and not have someone cross the road or think I'm going to mug them.

But then I'm back to square one. My presence has protected me on dark streets at night. The way I carry myself has protected me along with my level of confidence . In some ways it will always be a necessary evil I guess.


has anybody read Malcom X? he said he observed anti-black rascism in black society as families tried to be whiter as this ment they were more sucessful or civilised,

I'm not a Malcom X fan actually.

[Holden Caulfield]

But then I'm back to square one. My presence has protected me on dark streets at night. The way I carry myself has protected me along with my level of confidence . In some ways it will always be a necessary evil I guess.


im a dilusional wimp, and sheer misplaced confidence has saved me many a time, :lol:, pretend to want to fight when provoked (to the right ppl) and usually ppl will back down, i know to avoid the psychos,

why not like Malcom, just not read him or not like him?

[Lector Malibu]

im a dilusional wimp, and sheer misplaced confidence has saved me many a time, :lol:, pretend to want to fight when provoked (to the right ppl) and usually ppl will back down, i know to avoid the psychos,

why not like Malcom, just not read him or not like him?

It's not that I don't like him. I just differ slightly on his approach. I'm more of a Dr Martin Luther King fan. Though both were tremendously important to the civil rights era. They were both assassinated as well because of it, nuff said.

Malcom tended to be more of a crusader for yes rights for the African American community by any means necessary(witch is fine btw ) but personally I don't think he was as interested as much as integrating the white and black community together as much as Dr King was.

I'd like to see people come together and fight together on issues of injustice and inequality

We stand a much better chance that way. So that's why I'm not really a fan of his approach.

[Prairie Fire]

She might have said that her student was depressed and 'self loathing' because of internalized self-directed racism but just because she thought this was the case and articulated it as such doesn't really address the ontological question of whether or not the condition she thought caused his depression actually existed. Simply ascribing an explanation to an observable condition (such as being depressed) does not in of itself evidence the validity of the explanation.

I believe it was the student himself for articulated these feelings.



has anybody read Malcom X?


Yup. Good reading.
Also, chek out his youtube clips.


but personally I don't think he was as interested as much as integrating the white and black community together as much as Dr King was.

Read his Biography; it clears up a lot of misconceptions.

Second of all, "integration", by white standards, usually ends up being anglo-american cultural hegemony.

[Holden Caulfield]

Yup. Good reading.
Also, chek out his youtube clips.

have done,



Read his Biography; it clears up a lot of misconceptions.


have done, autobiography as well

i think fear of Malcom X sort rather than King's sort forced change,

same as in the British opression of Ireland when fear of mass violence rather than the peaceful parties forced change, the fear that the mass ranks of the peaceful mettings would move to more combative measures,

i think Luther and Malcom X can be used to illustrate the 'slave morality' mentioned by Nietzsche, Luther had slave mentality; as he assumed white morality the morality of the masters, whereas Malcom X challenged the system and said he would not turn the other cheek to opression,

he also openly criticised capitalism

[Lector Malibu]

Second of all, "integration", by white standards, usually ends up being anglo-american cultural hegemony.

Well I'm not speaking from white standards

Let me explain what I'm talking about here. Malcom X wanted things like a Black nationalist army that could defend the rights of of the African community world wide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkTnUxLjO2E

I'm not opposed with an armed group of people(if need be) to fight for human civil rights period. The problem I have with Malcom X's approach is that during a time when civil rights was crucial and segregation was a major issue as well , he suggested rather that trying to unite all peoples together to fight for civil rights, he primarily wanted Africans to unite to fight for civil rights. (listen to the end of the clip)

Dr Martin Luther King wanted civil rights as well. He also wanted to see people regardless of what they looked like (reference to the Malcom X clip) to work and stand together on this issue.

Ultimately they were both people worthy of praise for trying to find a solution to still a very difficult issue.

I think Kings approach was better though..

[professorchaos]

See: Uncle Ruckus (Boondocks)
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1125439