Who needs freedom anyway?

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

So I was wondering; Why is freedom such a big deal?

I'm having such a hard time drawing lines between what is right and what is wrong. Do you think that we're okay right now? As a race? Do you think this capitalist society works? If not, then what can we do about it? How can we change it? What exactly needs to happen?

Sometimes the means ends justify the ends. In this situation, are we at the point in which action needs to take place? Does the world need a change? Could the means justify the ends?

A band-aid solution would be a 1984 type scenario in which people are made into a cattle/herd type conceptual existence, but clearly that's the wrong choice, mainly because it greatly restricts our freedom. The best solution that I can come up with is one which would consist of the largest most radical change that the world has ever seen. People would be educated, all systems would be organized and perfected -many years of thought from many minds of many people- alone would be necessary to start it off.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I guess, well, what do you think?

Should we change the way things are? Could we

[F9]

Freedom is a BIG deal.Why?people need this,we dont want to get criticized by anyone for anything,we want our freedom on what we are doing and not depending on anyone else,we want freedom to live a better live where we dont have problems with no one and we take care each other to live a better life.We want the freedom to express ourselves,we want the freedom to go anywhere we want and no one says no to us,there are not immigrants or another word.With no freedom be happy is hypocricy!
We are doing ok as a race?:confused:What race?
yes the capitalis society works just fine,it takes the wealth from the workers and make employers rich.Workers work so their boss get the most benefits of their work.So i say capitalism,yes it works.
How can we change it?One solution:REVOLUTION
yes we should change it,but as we can,no by our own no,but with the power of the people we may achieve our goal!

Fuserg9:star:

[gla22]

Even in an "utopia" like brave new world we see freedom as a necessity. Freedom gives life meaning. Without freedom you aren't really living.

[Lector Malibu]

What race?

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

I guess what I'm saying is: Is living important? Sure it is to me, and you, but what about the bigger picture? We should be looking at the world on a planetary scale, and humans not as individuals, but as an organism. You know? Whats best for MANKIND?

But then again; maybe what's best for mankind is that all individuals are made into docile creatures, only thinking about feeding and mating. This is obviously not the answer, maybe what's best for MANKIND is also what's best for individuals? What's your opinion?

lol, Sorry Fuserg9, I meant species not race! XD
So as in, as a group, are we doing alright?
And when I asked "Is this okay, does capitalism work?" I was sort of asking from a moral stand point, sorry that I didn't make that clear. It's just that morality is my default thinking and so.. yeah, sometimes I forget. Morally, are you okay with the way that the western world is?

Here are a few small things that I have issues with:
Media - the group of people with the most influence are a profit driven organization, the true term, tabloid media.
Education - in most western countries, we don't adopt an "Education" system, we adopt a "Preparation" system; I'm not tought so that I understand mathematics, I'm tought so that I can practice mathematics. Do you understand my point? We aren't educated about life and the world, we're just prepared for it. We are given the tools to get things done, but not the knowledge to understand how it all works, and even, in most cases, what the fuck we're actually doing!
Banks - the very epitome of evil in our world today. The worst force that we face, the most greedy and immoral group of people there are. Banks work for a profit, they make that profit from other people. They MAKE money from your money, and they have the audacity to charge you while they do so. Governments of people, populations of third world countries have been brought to their knees by debt, meanwhile, the rest of the world, and the rest of the worlds banks, watch quietly from the shadows. If I had the power to help a dieing person, I would. If I had the power to help a person, I would.

[Mariner's Revenge]

Ah, I dwelled on this many times myself and this question itself has really led me to have a very nihilstic view on society.

I wrote a short story on this once. It was a about a person that was in purgatory. He and four other individuals were placed into a small room where they had 1,000 clay blocks and in order to leave purgatory and move into heaven, they had to build a standing structure. The problem was that the clay "blocks" were not all the same shape and size (representing people's diverse views), sometimes morphed into different shapes (representing people's rapidly changing views) , and the base where the structure was suppose to be built kept changing size and shape (representing change in enviornmental factors).

The main character, who thought he knew the solution to the problem, was tied up to a chair and not allowed to talk so he had to keep on watching the other four keep failing on building the structure. At the end, we find out that they are actually in hell and the structure is impossible to build.


So, basically what I tried to get across was that there is NO perfect socio-economic setup because people have too diverse of views to ever agree, people's views will always change, and eviornmental factors will always force a society to change or face the consequences of not doing so.


In otherwords, yes we are doing fine as a species and no, we are fucking up as a species. It really depends on what viewpoint you look at. I could point out all the advancements we've made and the higher standards of living of some people but I could also point out the rising emotional and pyschological strain on people and rising stravation rates of people not in first world countries.

What is best for mankind is also completely subjective. I used to be on the right because I believe efficiency was the best for mankind. Then I eventually saw the flaw in that and moved towards my more leftist stance of people being happy is the best for mankind. Now, I don't believe there is a "best for mankind" because we have to first determine what is best for mankind, which is impossible because of the subjectivity of the statement. It would be like asking what color would work best to paint that wall. It is all up to the individual person. Sometimes, people want efficiency, but that tends to deny human's freedom and happiness while other people want freedom and happiness, which will tend to lower standards of living and the economy.

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

Mariner's Revenge, that was brilliant. That's exactly the sort of answer I was hoping for, you completely directly answered my question and a few others that I hadn't asked. Is there a copy of that short story online?

Of course, I'm going to do a lot more searching before I decide on what I agree with and what I don't, but your insight was, at worst, invaluable.

Thanks.

[Dros]

What race?

This.

Also, don't you mean the ends justify the means?

[Post-Something]

So I was wondering; Why is freedom such a big deal?

I'm having such a hard time drawing lines between what is right and what is wrong. Do you think that we're okay right now? As a race? Do you think this capitalist society works? If not, then what can we do about it? How can we change it? What exactly needs to happen?

Sometimes the means justify the ends. In this situation, are we at the point in which action needs to take place? Does the world need a change? Could the means justify the ends?

A band-aid solution would be a 1984 type scenario in which people are made into a cattle/herd type conceptual existence, but clearly that's the wrong choice, mainly because it greatly restricts our freedom. The best solution that I can come up with is one which would consist of the largest most radical change that the world has ever seen. People would be educated, all systems would be organized and perfected -many years of thought from many minds of many people- alone would be necessary to start it off.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I guess, well, what do you think?

Should we change the way things are? Could we

Read this: http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html


It's really good at explaining it all.

[Mariner's Revenge]

Is there a copy of that short story online?
Nope, I wrote it for a creative writing course though I still have the file saved on my laptop but unfortunately that got a really bad virus and I am unable to open it until I reinstall Microsoft Office, which I have been procrastinating with. If you really want to read it remind me with a PM in a week or so because I should have my computer up by then.

[Dean]

Freedom is intrinsic to communism.

[Lector Malibu]

Anarchism is freedom.

[black magick hustla]

You are either a troll or terribly stupid.

you are right in a thing though. freedom as a moral principle is not an objective principle, as are all other moral principles. there is no god and therefore the world and its affairs lack any moral meaning except the one we give it to them. however, you cannot claim to be a communistr without finding freedom important in as much as communism is essentially about the emancipation of human beings. regardless of our interpretation of what freedom really is, even the worst of the stalinists have conistently argued for freedom, or at least what they thought freedom was.

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

Dude.. when did I say that I'm a communist? I'm on this website to broaden my knowledge of philosophy and politics. I want to hear what you guys have to say about freedom, exactly what you think it is and why you think it's important. Why? Because I'm a grade 11 student from Australia, who doesn't do philosophy at school, and doesn't study politics or any other social-studies classes.

"Learning... A place for beginners and learners to ask their political questions about theory or specific issues. Don't worry if you think your questions are stupid or pointless, ask away. Learning is not stupid and is never pointless."

I'm not a troll and although I know that my opinion is probably a little more biased than it is valid, I don't really think that I'm 'Terribly Stupid'.

lol, Drosera99, sorry, you're right, I'll edit that.

[black magick hustla]

when i was in grade 11 i wasnt infantile enough to think that everybody should be a herd and be stripped from their identity to the point that we should just be content to eat and mate.

maybe i over-reacted but honestly that is a pretty stupid viewpoint.

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

I don't actually believe that. Far out, I'm the infant? Did you read any of the other posts in this thread?

Do you realize what the point of creating this thread was? I. Want. Other. Peoples. Opinions.

I don't actually believe that we should all be sheep, I was saying, hypothetically, x y and z. Now here's the main part: you ready for this? Prepared? I. Want. Other. Peoples. Opinions.

Shesh, even if I did believe that earth should be controlled in some sort of matrix like reality then: dude, there's no need to insult random strangers for voicing there opinion, in a place which exists so that people may voice there opinion, ie. 'Learning'

Grow up, I didn't join these forums to be abused by random judgmental strangers, I joined here to further my knowledge of politics and philosophy.

In my second post I tried to communicate that: here is a hypothetical, What do you think about it? Never did I state that I believe this is what we should do, I just proposed the idea because I wanted to see what others thought.

"This is obviously not the answer, maybe what's best for MANKIND is also what's best for individuals? What's your opinion?"