Abortion - "retardation" in theory

[Imperial Power]

This makes me sick. Who are any of you to judge life or deny it. How can you say a fetus is not alive, killing a fetus kills a person. You are destroying the process of life. I dont care what mental disorders a baby is born with, if the parents can't handle it adoption is the option.

[Dan Majerle]

i totally agree. This emanates from american capitalist notion of free choice and the ability to choose and do anything without considering ethics and morality. Abortion, designer babies, etc that is not natural and that is the manifestation of the decadence of capitalism; no regard for humanity and only regard for the individual. A culture of materialism and constant spoiling and one that celebrates people who make millions by getting others to write songs for them whilst humanitarians and humanity's soldiers receive nothing is bound to produce such actions. No surprise here.

[oconner]

I also agree though I don't really think this is something which divides commies and cappies...but it is disgusting to end a life for the sake of convience

[Mazdak]

hehe, you should have seen the topic in theory, IP. Abortion? It's either we have a massive war of extermination or mass sterilization/abortion. The human population is grotesquely large. Abortion should be forced in certain cases. (the fetus is HIV positive or something of that nature) or is going to be a completely braindead retard. No need having such counterproductives making civilization lag and for their own sake.

[Exploited Class]

Well I don't see how a mall number of unfortunate people, that's correct people, being born with maladies hurts society as a whole, or slows down progress. Sure if it was an epidemic of say a whole quarter of the human population, it could hold back society from progress.
I would even argue that progress with resources isn't even all that necessary and by all means not the end all definition of a successful society.

By deeming certain conditions as being unworthy for society to care for, we enter upon a slippery slope of what is and what is not of value to society. If we terminate a pregnancy because retardation in the fetus, what about congenital heart failure, surely that could make a worker less productive to society. Also, in having to care for people who can not contribute to society by working productive means, opens up a possible career for those people who would wish to care for them.

As far as overpopulation is concerned, most people born of disadvantages seldom reproduce. Education, birth control and perhaps even penalties against having 2 or more children would much more help ease the ever growing over population problem, over the ending of a few lives.

On the case of abortion, sex's main reason for existing is its exercise in creating life. I think it only a fool who now would say it is the only thing it is used for. Those who engage in sex can do so solely for the purpose of enjoyment, intimacy, relationship bonding, exercise, healthy affirmation of life, spiritual, and reproduction. If a couple or person does not wish to suffer the consequences of those actions with the birth of a child, they should not have to carry the fetus to full term.

The moral questions regarding the life of a fetus, conception, are totally open to debate and should be left to those who want to make that choice can, and those who do not want to have a child and do not conform to the belief should be able to perform an abortion, legally and in a clinical setting. Those who do conform to the belief that abortion equates with murder should not. That is the only plausible solution to this debate.

[genniva]

Now, I expect -- no disrespect here, just stating the obvious -- that all you abortion arguers are male and/or teenage.

I have personally experienced both a baby most doctors advised me to abort and an abortion. (The baby is a fine 7-yr-old now, thank you, and the abortion was medically inevitable.) So I know what I'm talking about.

ABORTION IS NOT AN ACCEPTABLE WAY OF BIRTH CONTROL!!!

I'm all for abortions on substantiated medical grounds, including psychological reasons, but I think it's too late to exercise one's 'personal power of choice' during a pregnancy already started. There are a thousand ways to prevent conception, and while we, I admit, haven't experimented with the Pill long enough to know if it's truly safe we do know many other methods are. In any case, it's easier on the woman, both physically and mentally, to avoid a pregnancy than to terminate one.

An abortion is a surgery, and yes, it can and does go wrong now and then.

I'm not against abortion. I'm FOR contraceptives readily available to anyone, and I mean anyone, men and women, teenagers and grown-ups. I'm FOR good basic sexual education without false shame. And I'm FOR voluntary abortions in cases where the baby, once born, would suffer through a short life instead of enjoying a full one, or seriously endanger its mother's life, or remain a painful reminder of rape. Note the word voluntary. In these cases, a woman should have the right to choose.

So, before you start spouting opinions about abortion, go have one;)

(Edited by genniva at 10:56 pm on Nov. 1, 2002)

[Jaha]

seems to me that if it is ethical to kill amimals for fun and do experiments, why is it so bad to kill a thing that has not even lived in the larger world.

yeah, abortion kills, but so do anti-biotics, hunting, eating. are you going to stop killing bacteria or amputating because they kill too. yes amputating kills, all those thousands of cells in your leg....

its ok to KILL the bacteria that causes gingivitis, but it should be ilegal to KILL the bacteria that causes overpopulation?

(Edited by Jaha at 9:37 pm on Nov. 1, 2002)

[Imperial Power]

Genniva are you familiar with the abortion procedure? In the partial birth abortion the doctor reaches and pulls the baby half way out and turns it over. He holds the babies kicking legs together to prevent any squirming and inserts and a tube below the cervic spine area into Foramen Magnum penetrating the brain stem. A vaccum like device is then switched on and the infants brains are essentially sucked out. Now as you put it this is a surgical procedure which should be no different to you then pulling a tooth. genniva how do you define murder?

[Exploited Class]

Quote: from genniva on 8:53 pm on Nov. 1, 2002 Now, I expect -- no disrespect here, just stating the obvious -- that all you abortion arguers are male and/or teenage.

Sexism in not necessary. Empathy is not something impossible for others of the opposite sex to feel. Nor should we play into ageism and believe people who are "teenagers" can not argue points of abortion.


I have personally experienced both a baby most doctors advised me to abort and an abortion. (The baby is a fine 7-yr-old now, thank you, and the abortion was medically inevitable.) So I know what I'm talking about.


Although I would argue that yes, first hand experiences are valuable, they prove little to provide for an argument to this degree. For every person who has had a bad experience with something there is somebody who had the same thing happen but experienced something completely different. Take two people to a movie and see how much their opinions on the movie differ, or even a roller coaster ride, food, sex, well just about anything.



ABORTION IS NOT AN ACCEPTABLE WAY OF BIRTH CONTROL!!!

I would not say it is the first line of defense in birth control but is the next to last. The last is a permanent surgery to remove the ability to reproduce. Condoms break, birth control pills fail, ignorance on use exists. I will be disappointed at the person or persons who did not practice birth control but I am not going to be so bold that I tell them that they have to see something all the way through because of a mistake.

[/quote]I'm all for abortions on substantiated medical grounds, including psychological reasons, but I think it's too late to exercise one's 'personal power of choice' during a pregnancy already started. There are a thousand ways to prevent conception, and while we, I admit, haven't experimented with the Pill long enough to know if it's truly safe we do know many other methods are. In any case, it's easier on the woman, both physically and mentally, to avoid a pregnancy than to terminate one.[/quote]

That is opinion. Perhaps mentally it is hard to have an abortion only because of the social stigmas associated with having one. It is definitely hard to do something when people call you murderer, or tell you, that you will go to hell. I am sure the very loud and vocal anti-abortion community makes it very hard for people both male and female to feel good about an abortion. Physically an abortion in this day and age, is not all that harsh. I have several friends that have had abortions and 2 of the 3 said it was better than the process of extracting wisdom teeth. Never mind the fact that you have chosen to have a baby, obviously you do want a child so perhaps the abortion was mentally hard on you, and it wasn’t a choice of did you want it or not but sounds like it was a choice you didn’t have. That too would make it mentally hard. I would think that after carrying it to full term and then giving it up for adoption much more stressful than a simple clinical operation.


An abortion is a surgery, and yes, it can and does go wrong now and then.

This is an awful argument stance to take. Because it can go wrong we should avoid it? So plane crashes do happen, train wrecks and car wrecks can and do happen, slipping out of the tub and killing oneself can and does happen. The degree of risk is very minimal, most do not use any anesthetics, and when performed by a doctor the outcomes are good. I am pretty sure getting a boob job constitutes more risk.


I'm not against abortion. I'm FOR contraceptives readily available to anyone, and I mean anyone, men and women, teenagers and grown-ups. I'm FOR good basic sexual education without false shame. And I'm FOR voluntary abortions in cases where the baby, once born, would suffer through a short life instead of enjoying a full one, or seriously endanger its mother's life, or remain a painful reminder of rape. Note the word voluntary. In these cases, a woman should have the right to choose.

These have become catechisms to the argument of abortion that have received some degree of acceptance and are ridiculous. If having a baby is a painful reminder of rape, then its okay to kill something you deem of value and say is a life. So what if this life that is precious unless it was created by means of rape is a painful reminder of a bad relationship or an abusive relationship? Or how about this, why do you get to chose the life of the mother over the babies? You seem to think that the fetus holds value, and that value is that it is a life at conception. So if it is a life and has value and should not be destroyed on a choice, then you get to make a choice that the mother gets to live and that her life is more important than other. Then it isn't equality. Since the life is already there in the womb as some say it happens at conception, then why should nature not take its course and it is allowed to be born even at the cost of the mother's life naturally? Once you give something the value of life and if you believe all life is equal you can't start having these strange one life is more important than an other on a scale of 1 to 1. Sorry the math doesn't work that way but inequality does.


so, before you start spouting opinions about abortion, go have one;)


Is that an argument for gun safety as well, "before you are against getting shot in the head, go get shot in the head. Before being against war, go have one. Before becoming against prostitution, be one or sleep with one." Makes no sense, might sound catchy but comes out being stupid. I understand it was something directed at men, because they lack the ability to have a baby, but still. Sexism is not nice. How about we tell women who no longer can produce that they no longer get to have a say?

[Moskitto]

Quote: from Imperial Power on 9:41 pm on Nov. 1, 2002
Genniva are you familiar with the abortion procedure? In the partial birth abortion the doctor reaches and pulls the baby half way out and turns it over. He holds the babies kicking legs together to prevent any squirming and inserts and a tube below the cervic spine area into Foramen Magnum penetrating the brain stem. A vaccum like device is then switched on and the infants brains are essentially sucked out. Now as you put it this is a surgical procedure which should be no different to you then pulling a tooth. genniva how do you define murder?


That is sick, I though it was an injection into the heart.

[Stormin Norman]

Imperial Power is right. That is the procedure for partial birth abortion. Animals that undergo product testing are treated more humanely. Whatever your views on abortion, I think we can all agree that this practice is wrong. I would call this a murderous practice, would you?

[Exploited Class]

Hey now, why are we talking about partial birth abortions. They are rare to begin with.

I am speaking of first trimester abortions. If somebody can not make up their mind to have an abortion or follow through with the full birth within the first 3 months of a pregancy, then I guess it is adoption time.

[Stormin Norman]

It is rare, but it is also disgraceful.

Abortion is also a disgusting practice, but the high court has ruled on it and it remains legal under our system. I disagree with the practice, but I am not going to interfer with someone who is engaged in something that is legal. That does not mean that I will not pass judgment as to the character of someone who would prefer throwing life in a bloody trash heap for the sake of convenience. I am not talking about instances of rape and incest, the psychological damage caused by that type of pregnancy warrants such a drastic measure. I don't think abortions should be taken lightly, and should not be the first option considered as it is in many circumstances.

[Moskitto]

er, if you don't want to get pregnant, 1 word, CONDOM.

oh, the most pathetically lame excuse I've heard is "contraception can fail" If you decide to read the instructions then you can probably get it to work most of the time. It's like "I might fail at school, I might as well not go", "I might fall in if I do this race, I won't do it." even thought the chances in each case are miniscule. If you don't want to get pregnant, use a condom, don't have sex then have an abortion.

[Exploited Class]

Abortion might not be necessary in a perfect world.

Abortion in America makes sense for so many reasons. America is a country that was founded by religious extremists, that's right Puritans. So crazy that witch burnings were okay, hated so much they were kicked from England and put in a small crappy boat in the word in hopes they might all die at sea. So nuts that buckles on their hats made sense. And thanks to that wonderful beginning our society, religion and all the other contributing factors that make people feel guilt or dirty about sex. Education is not taught heavily on the subject of how to have or not have a baby, and we have way to much misinformation out there on the subject. Can't get pregnant your first time... The guilt and the dirtiness associated with sex leaves most people too embarrassed to buy protection or see a doctor about having pills.

Also the body on its own will abort a fetus. It can be because something is physically wrong, with the host or the fetus. The mind might not have the ability to stop the pregnancy on its own, but does have the ability to stop it with help from a doctor. So if the physical body is not prepared for the baby then I think it possible that the mind as well is perhaps not ready for a baby as well. If somebody says it is not natural like what the body is doing, well then toss out all medical assistance because pacemakers don’t grow on their own either.

[Exploited Class]

Quote: from Moskitto on 11:19 pm on Nov. 1, 2002
er, if you don't want to get pregnant, 1 word, CONDOM.

oh, the most pathetically lame excuse I've heard is "contraception can fail" If you decide to read the instructions then you can probably get it to work most of the time. It's like "I might fail at school, I might as well not go", "I might fall in if I do this race, I won't do it." even thought the chances in each case are miniscule. If you don't want to get pregnant, use a condom, don't have sex then have an abortion.

It does fail, condoms break even when they are used properly. Pills do not always work, they didn't know that using antibiotics at the same time would make the pill useless. People found out the hard way. Some alergy pills can also make the pill not work.

I am not ever going to tell somebody to abstain from sex, why? Because hardly anybody ever does, and it is the people who are trying to abstain from sex that end up pregnant (not all the time), because they aren't going to have sex so they don't prepare for sex in the way of contraceptions.

I would like to smack in the head anybody who is not practicing safe sex by now however. Abortion/contraceptions set aside. Way, way too dangerous in todays world to not wear protection.

[antieverything]

I doubt anyone here is in favor of partial birth abortions. I personally think that abortion is wrong and pretty gross but I also believe that it should be legal. Why? A fetus is not a person. A person is capable of thinking...a fetus is not. Even ancient Hebrew law (which pro-life activists cling so heavily to) says that a child is not legally a person until a few months out of the womb...when an infant died, it was not to be mourned over. If an unborn child was killed in an act of violence, the penalty was a fine instead of a death penalty (which is required for murder). But that really doesn't mean anything, after all. That certainly isn't the argument which the pro-lifers here put forward (I do find that very refreshing and I commend you for thinking for yourselves and believing what your heart tells you and not what society drills into you). What are the arguments? That the fetus is a person. Is it? No. Does a human life begin at conception? Of course not.

Certainly a zygote has 46 chromosomes, but so does a skin cell. What defines personhood? Having brain activity? Having a human body? A fetus has neither until late in the pregnancy. During the period in which most abortions occur, the fetus does not have the brain development neccesary to even feel pain. Two pro-life scientists, K.J. Anand and P.R. Hickey, undertook extensive research to prove once and for all that aborted fetuses feel pain. But their results pointed to the opposite conclusion: that it was unlikely that fetuses could feel pain until the beginning of the 7th month, when the lobes of their growing brains had drawn together and established synaptic contact. From all the scientific evidence gathered so far, the pro-life effort to turn the 8-week old fetus into a functional person is a failure.

But still, I am against abortion as a form of birth control.

[canikickit]

I am not talking about instances of rape and incest, the psychological damage caused by that type of pregnancy warrants such a drastic measure. I don't think abortions should be taken lightly, and should not be the first option considered as it is in many circumstances.

I agree with what Norm said here. In these cases it should be legal, and in some other circumstances which might not come to mind right now.

As for the original thread, which Imperial Power (Imperialism is racism, by the way) pointed us towards, I think it is sick bullshit, from the minds of at least one anti-social teenager, with no grasp of reality whatsoever. :cool:

[genniva]

Sorry for being, um . . . maybe too forceful about this.

It's just that I grew up in good old Soviet Union, where abortion WAS all the birth control we had. Statistics say about 50% of pregnancies in the former Soviet bloc end with abortions. I don't think this healthy.

And, as for pulling teeth, you wouldn't have one pulled just for the fun of it. You'd rather get into a habit of brushing your teeth every day;) So the analogy still applies!

Morality and ethics have nothing to do with it. A state, any state, needs healthy, productive citizens. This means citizens using easy-to-obtain contraception rather than female citizens having regular abortions.

[CompadreGuerrillera]

dude she is a female i think she would know what she was talking about, you conservative MALE morrons

[kidicarus20]

I am in favor of abortion, partial birth abortion (third trimester abortion), any kind of abortion. Those who are opposed should shut the fuck up. Abortion makes sense in any country, capitalism or communism.

More abortions take place naturally than they do with choice, more than half of all fertalized eggs do not even make it to a fetus. Also, when an egg is fertalized it takes 7 days to reach the uterus, during that time it can be lost in menstruation, so these conservative dumb fucks are saying anybody that has a period is a serial killer.

If fetuses were people then we should invent some machine that would keep all fetuses alive until they are ready to be taken home. That would mean that a woman had sex she'd have to find out if she was pregnant and if she was she'd have to go to the hosbital to put in in that machine. Try to save all fetuses just like how we try to save all humans.

I see it this way:
Abortion does not hurt the enviornment, however killing animals does.

Animals are living species and anything that interrupts their nature should be banned and anybody who kills animals should be taken to the gallows pole to have a noose placed around his neck.

You can be pro-choice and be pro-animal, however you can't call yourself pro-life and anti-animal.
Fetuses have no brainwaves, each animal has a uniqueness about them.

Women who have abortions and are now against it should shut the fuck up. Birth-control is not accessible to everyone, therefore it should be free.
Also, if you can't afford an abortion, it should be free. I support covering abortion under healthcare.


Both extereme communists and extreme capitalists are pro-choice in any circumstance. Communism because it's right and makes sense, outlawing abortion hurt countries such as romania.
Capitalism because anything restricting what most pepole see as rights hinders capitalism and fair competition.
Also, capitalists don't think religion should be placed upon the majority of people.

capitalists are fucking stupid but they are right here. anybody who is aginst abortion is against capitalism and communism.


What is abortion?
Abortion is the removal of a fetus from the body of its host (a pregnant woman) which typically results in the death of the fetus.

What is the essential issue concerning abortion?
The essential question concerning abortion is: does the fetus have an inalienable right to be in the body of its' host against the host's will?

Doesn't a fetus have a right to be in the womb of its host?
A fetus does not have a right to be in the womb of any woman, but is only in there by her permission. This permission may be revoked by the woman at any time. Rights are not permissions; permissions are not rights. This permission is given by the woman, because it is her body -- and not the fetus's body, and certainly not the government's body.

To give a fetus "rights" superior to a pregnant woman is to eradicate the woman's right to her body. The principle here is: any right that contradicts the right of another cannot be a right, as rights form an integrated whole. Contrary to the opinion of anti-lifers (falsely called "pro-lifers" as they are against the life of the actual human being involved) a woman is not a breeding pig.

Why is abortion not murder?
Murder is the taking of the life of another human being through the initiation of physical force. Abortion is not murder, because a fetus is not a human being -- it is a potential human being, i.e. it is part of the woman. The concept murder only applies to the initiation of physical force used to destroy an actual human being, i.e., such as when "pro-life" terrorists bomb abortion clinics.

Isn't the fetus "life", and therefore has a right to life?
You are equivocating on the term "life" which is a concept that includes everything that is living. Dogs are "life" but they do not have rights. What about ants? So are trees "life", yet they do not have rights (contrary to the mouthing of man-hating environmentalists). Rights only apply to human beings, and not to human tissue.

Rights apply to human beings, because only human beings survive by the use of reason (unlike dogs, trees, ants -- and fetuses). Rights only apply to human beings, because only human beings -- and not parts of beings -- survive by reason. Please keep in mind what a right is: a right is a moral sanction for freedom of action in a social context. A fetus has no rights, as it does not need freedom to take any actions, but survives on the sustenance of its host. The only action it must take is nothing, i.e., wait for itself to develop using the sustenance provided by its host.

What is the capitalist view on abortion?
Given the above, under capitalism abortion is an inalienable right. Any one who advocates the outlawing of abortion -- like Steve Forbes -- is an enemy of individual rights, and thus of capitalism.

Do children have no rights?
Children, unlike fetuses, do have rights. A new born child, unlike a fetus, is a physically separate entity. A child is an actual human being, with a capability to reason, and thus a child has the same right to life as any adult. However, the application of this right differs in practice from that of an adult, as a child's conceptual faculty is not fully developed. That is why a six year old does not have the right to choose to enter into a sexual relationship -- and an adult does.

[kidicarus20]

Did you know that some gothics make their girlfriends and shit get pregnant and have the baby without going to the hosbital.
LOL.
Then they sacrifice it to the gods.

I think it's fucking funny.

If they are caught their punishment should not be as bad as if they killed scumbag joe across the street. Because the baby was just born.

[Imperial Power]

You are sadistic trash kidicarus

[Anonymous]

The fact that you value animal life over human life is sad.

[Moskitto]

while I am sad that it comes to this, I have to agree with the above 2 posters.

[honest intellectual]

Fetuses have no brainwavesI think this is the real issue. People are people because of their self-awareness, which comes from the brain. It is, in my opinion, OK to kill something which doesn't have a brain, because it's not concious so it can't be considered alive

[Stormin Norman]

I have a question for those who support a woman's right to choose. If the male agrees to support the child and take full custody of the child, should the female be allowed an abortion without the man's approval?

[kidicarus20]

"You are sadistic trash kidicarus "

You're pro-american, america has killed millions of people unjustly, yet you call yourself pro-life (anti-choice).

"The fact that you value animal life over human life is sad. "

A fetus has no brainwaves for 26 weeks, thats well into the third trimester.
A person in a comma has brain waves.
Animals have brainwaves.
I have brainwaves.
some capitalists have brainwaves, but not the fetus. It's a womans choice.

With the animals, destroying them hurts the enviornment, indeed many people are vegan not for health reasons but for environmental concerns. Slaugterhouses pollute the environment more than the city of los angles, pollute our water, waste our resources, etc... Until these slaugterhouses are regulated into submission many of those vegans will not eat meat.

Abortion also helps people who are alive, we should use fetuses for research to help cure diseases. President bush was wrong to try to deny any fetus research.


Communism has always been very much pro-abortion, which i'm against. Our termoniology of pro-abortion is forced abortion, however I think that what China is doing makes sense, in a society you have to do what makes sense.

Capitalism is for it, only if you're talking to true capitalists.
Indeed, a majority of capitalists in america our conservative, but they dont really support a free-market if they are pushing their religious beliefs on people, I covered that in another post.

"have a question for those who support a woman's right to choose. If the male agrees to support the child and take full custody of the child, should the female be allowed an abortion without the man's approval?"


how about this, I should be able to force my woman to HAVE an abortion, as well as to force her to not have one.
I have a friend who's got a few abortions under his belt (made his gf have one), i went with them, it was a fun experience, me and my friend both had a cup of coffee, they really know how to make them at abortion clinics. Secrect ingredient must be fetus.

[Stormin Norman]

Your friend sounds like as much of a scumbag as you.

[kidicarus20]

Oh no i'm not scum, i'm not a capitalists, only capitalists are scum.

As are all christians, christianity is a scumbag religoin that promotes violence, hate, fear, racism, sexism, nazism, capitalism, fascism.
that's why the religious right are fucks.

All ****s that live in their trailors.

[Guest]

Sad here in America people are profiting from the murder of defenseless unborn children (abortion being a multi-billion dollar industry).

[kidicarus20]

cover it under national health care

[LeninCCCP]

Who gives a rats ass if you make abortion illegal people will still do it then you have to put them in jail and pay for their room and board and as far as the NATURAL thing goes all things that happen are Natural when we wipe out a whole species of animals thats natural. When we melt the ozone that natural and when we kill or get rid of a fetus thats natural.

[Solzhenitsyn]

"People will still do it then you have to put them in jail and pay for their room and board"

People will also commit murder and robbery regardless of what laws. Why isn't anyone advocating sterile and humane environments for murderers to do their deed or special robbery rooms where attempts can be resolved to the satisfaction of the criminal without risk?



(Edited by Solzhenitsyn at 11:37 pm on Nov. 3, 2002)

[redstar2000]

Is it not curious how much heat and passion can be generated by a "question" that is about as non-political as you can find anywhere?

Really, unless YOU are pregnant and have to decide whether or not to abort...why would you CARE? Do you CARE about someone deciding whether or not to have open heart surgery? Or a kidney transplant? Or a tooth pulled?

Are there not more important things to think about than other people's medical problems and how they choose to deal with them?

Evidently NOT!

[oh, I forgot, what about DAD? Maybe next time he wants a kid, he should pick a lady who WANTS to have his baby.]

[Solzhenitsyn]

Children are different than tumors or artery clogs.

[oh, I forgot, what about DAD? Maybe next time he wants a kid, he should pick a lady who WANTS to have his baby.]

Typical leftist drivel. Redstar knows he's been had. Abortion rights is an inequality because it is the female's sole perogative to unilaterally terminate parenthood. Does the male have an equal right to terminate parenthood and get off the child support hook. I think not.

[Frosty]

Quote: from LeninCCCP on 4:22 am on Nov. 4, 2002
all things that happen are Natural when we wipe out a whole species of animals thats natural. When we melt the ozone that natural and when we kill or get rid of a fetus thats natural.


Uh, ever heard of "free will"?
Free will to say NO to capitalism. Free will to say NO to anti-environmentalism, pollution and exploitation.

[Exploited Class]

Quote: from Solzhenitsyn on 2:15 pm on Nov. 4, 2002


Typical leftist drivel. Redstar knows he's been had. Abortion rights is an inequality because it is the female's sole perogative to unilaterally terminate parenthood. Does the male have an equal right to terminate parenthood and get off the child support hook. I think not.


Well since this is a communist board, in a communist society we wouldn't have to worry about child support.

All in all I would say this isn't a Socialism Vs. capitalism issue. This is one of those neat issues that gets put out there, tells people to be concerned about and distracts everybody from real problems in society.

The hang ups, abortion, racism, guns. All just very small and insignaficant issue to be concerned about instead of the real problem with the society you live in.

[truthaddict11]

I am pro choice but i believe that it is the women's choice in the end and is the only one who should choose to have an abortion or not.
I believe that anti-abortionists overexaggerate the details of abortions.
go to i belive pro-choice.org they'll tell you about different forms of abortion.

for laughs check out the song by Jello Biafra and Mojo Nixon "Will the Fetus Be Aborted?" its funny as hell.

[Moskitto]

Quote: from kidicarus20 on 3:07 am on Nov. 4, 2002
cover it under national health care


you'd have to cover contraception as well, otherwise it could encourage people to have abortions because they're free and contaceptives aren't.

[mentalbunny]

As someone who has had to think about the possibility of being pregnant, i say abortion should only be used in a situation where the mother can't cope with the baby for some reason, and as soon as possible (first trimester basically). i would only have one while i was unable to support myself and the baby financially and there was no father to help, at 16, I was too young by far and it was stupid of me to get in that situation. Fortunately emergency contraception saved my bacon, but i will be so much more careful in future.

[captain anarchy]

abortion is bad it is still murder. i'm against it it is wrong. theres so much i could say on it i can't even say it all.

[mentalbunny]

Quote: from captain anarchy on 10:13 pm on Nov. 10, 2002
abortion is bad it is still murder. i'm against it it is wrong. theres so much i could say on it i can't even say it all.

imagine you are a 16 year old girl who's just had sex. You used protection or took the mornign after pill the next day, but your period is late. You will get chucked out of school, your parents will be really upset as they have had loads of shit from your two older siblings and have been through emotional hell and out the other side. If you get pregnant now, your mum might turn suicidal, she will in any case be very depressed and have serious issues. You are in love with the guy you had sex with, and if your parents find out you're pregnant with his kid you will never be able to see him again. Neither of you can cope with being parents, so what do you do? You have an abortion as soon as possible. At 16 your parents need never find out, you can stay in school, finish your education and there's no added pressure on your relationship with the guy.

Captain Anarchy, I assume you are male. Abortion cannot be criminalised, this will lead to back-street abortionists and loads of unwanted kids. We cannot get rid of abortion, it has been around for thousands of years, and will ocntiinue to be around for as long as the human race survives. You don't have to like it, but you have to accept it.

[Stormin Norman]

It's a real ***** to be responsible for your own actions isn't it? I took the opposite approach, mentalbunny. I owned up to my actions and now I have a great kid, although very difficult at times. Lifes a *****, it's how you choose to react to what it hands you that makes the person. I guess I always make it a point to take the road less travelled. You know the hard way. Looking back it never really is as hard as it seems when I first encounter the difficulty. Life has a certain continuity to it. It just seems to go on regardless of the curvature of the path.

[canikickit]

Good for you Norm.

[antieverything]

Norman, your observations about life are very true...you made me get all teary-eyed and shit!

[mentalbunny]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 1:55 pm on Nov. 11, 2002
It's a real ***** to be responsible for your own actions isn't it? I took the opposite approach, mentalbunny. I owned up to my actions and now I have a great kid, although very difficult at times. Lifes a *****, it's how you choose to react to what it hands you that makes the person. I guess I always make it a point to take the road less travelled. You know the hard way. Looking back it never really is as hard as it seems when I first encounter the difficulty. Life has a certain continuity to it. It just seems to go on regardless of the curvature of the path.


Ok , SN, but how old were you? 16? I doubt it...

Abortion has to be there as an option for people when they mess up.

(Edited by mentalbunny at 2:23 pm on Nov. 12, 2002)

[Imperial Power]

ADOPTION! ADOPTION! ADOPTION!

If you can't handle the baby fine, give it to someone who wants a baby and can provide.

Another thought for those who treat abortion as a mere medical procedure. Take a woman who has been trying to become pregnant. Finally after trying for years she becomes pregnant but soon afterward is in a car crash. The pregnancy is lost. How does the woman act? Like a botched medical procedure occured. No, She acts like someone died.

[tucows]

Id rather a baby have the worst life possible than no life at all

[Kehoe]

Therapeutic abortion in cases of fetal abnormality and endangerment of the mothers life are naturally accepted reasons for terminating unborn life,also in case of rape abortion must be an option for the mother.The law of reproduction demands participation of both sexes and the mother should not be forced to bear sole responsibility for a moments indiscretion.Whenever a young man exerts his masculinity and impregnates a young girl then he must likewise bear the brunt of his actions as well as she and be made to ride out the storm and care for the new life they mutually created.There are various means of contraception and therefore no excuses for unwanted pregnancies,and society should not be made to pay for the mistakes of those who had sufficient means of prevention.

(Edited by Kehoe at 7:23 am on Nov. 13, 2002)

[canikickit]

Abortion has to be there as an option for people when they mess up.

During sporting events they usually have a doctor on hand. For example if Shaq were to injure himself, it would be neccessary for him to recieve informed medical attention at the soonest possible instance. If Shaq, or someone else was to mess up, they would have that option.

However, sex is not a recreational activity. Sex is not something which should be entered into lightly. If you are going to have sex, you should be ready to deal with the consequences.



Therapeutic abortion in cases of fetal abnormality and endangerment of the mothers life are naturally accepted reasons for terminating unborn life,also in case of rape abortion must be an option for the mother.

Absolutely.

[mentalbunny]

Quote: from Imperial Power on 5:29 am on Nov. 13, 2002
ADOPTION! ADOPTION! ADOPTION!

If you can't handle the baby fine, give it to someone who wants a baby and can provide.


Not that many people adopt, it's quite difficult, amny people get turned down. And personally to not exist is better than to exist with a horrible life. but that's only my opinion.

[Stormin Norman]

It just as easily could have happened to me at 16. It would have been an entirely different experience. However, I know my feelings on such matters would have prevented me from being a party to an abortion at any age. Since it is the right of the woman to choose I could not have stopped her, but I would not have supported a decision that contradicts what I consider to be right. I would have stuck by her on any other decision but that one.

" Not that many people adopt, it's quite difficult, amny people get turned down."

Plenty of people are willing to pay cold hard cash to adopt. In economic terms, there is more demand than there is supply. This is probably due to the fact that life is being wasted.

"And personally to not exist is better than to exist with a horrible life. but that's only my opinion."

Ah, but if that were true I would not exist and bring such greatness to the world.

[Moskitto]

Our countries home secretary called the US adoption system sick, but that's a different arguement.

But there are plenty of people who can't have children who want them, but they either have to pay money (as in the US) or there's way too much beauracracy (as over here), my best friend spent most of his life moving around different foster parents, when he was going to be moving back to bristol where he lived before, my godparents applied to adopt him and were refused (they have no criminal convictions.)

[chamo]

Abortion should only be allowed on grounds of
1: it is proven that the child will be born deformed or seriously retarded
2: In the case of rape

No other reasons should be acceptable, if you dont want it don't do it! People should take more responsibilty. abortion is totally disgusting, it's murder in reality. an accident or not being financially supported to bring up a child is no excuse for abortion. Though some people may just try to kill new babies or leave them in shrubs i think those places where new-borns can be left at a house where they can be cared for and put up for adoption. however i cannot believe that people are so careless or have such a lack of morals to have an abortion. think of the children.

In the Soviet Union wasn't abortion free and open to all?

[Brian]

Quote: from Imperial Power on 5:29 am on Nov. 13, 2002
ADOPTION! ADOPTION! ADOPTION!

Oh dear, this isn't good at all. This look likes a sign of retardation.But wait! We already knew you were retarded to begin with. Remember IP, you're not weird or dumb, you're special.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Imperial Power on 11:29 pm on Nov. 12, 2002
ADOPTION! ADOPTION! ADOPTION!

If you can't handle the baby fine, give it to someone who wants a baby and can provide.


How about we first require by law that all anti-choice nuts such as yourself adopt a child?

I think you and the silly little man in your avatar just want women to have babies so there are more people to send off to war.

I also find it interesting that someone named "Captain Anarchy" would be against a woman's reproductive rights. It seems pretty statist to advocate restriction of rights, especially when it affects the poor most.

The crusade against abortion is just another way for white middle class males to assert their dominance over lower income women. The wealthy women of this country will still be able to afford a flight to a more reasonable country, while the poor are forced to see back ally butchers in illegal clinics like the 1950's.

[mentalbunny]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 2:33 am on Nov. 21, 2002

Quote: from Imperial Power on 11:29 pm on Nov. 12, 2002
ADOPTION! ADOPTION! ADOPTION!

If you can't handle the baby fine, give it to someone who wants a baby and can provide.


How about we first require by law that all anti-choice nuts such as yourself adopt a child?

I think you and the silly little man in your avatar just want women to have babies so there are more people to send off to war.

I also find it interesting that someone named "Captain Anarchy" would be against a woman's reproductive rights. It seems pretty statist to advocate restriction of rights, especially when it affects the poor most.

The crusade against abortion is just another way for white middle class males to assert their dominance over lower income women. The wealthy women of this country will still be able to afford a flight to a more reasonable country, while the poor are forced to see back ally butchers in illegal clinics like the 1950's.



A man after my own heart, I completely agree with you.

The fact is this place isn't perfect, neither are humans. We all make mistakes, some bigger than others, and abortion has to be there for those who can't cope. It happens, ok? Get over it, if you don't like it don't do it, but don't stop the rest of us.

[RedCeltic]

Yes Harriet, the thing that anti-choice advocates don't understand is that it's not abortions that we advocate, but rather the right to safe abortions.

We all know that the legal status of the procedure will never change how many people make mistakes, nor cause abortions to suddenly go away.

Legalized abortion provides a safe alternative to a woman mutilating herself, or subjected to high-risk procedures performed by under qualified quacks.

There will always be doctors who are willing to perform this procedure, however under illegal status, it will be unregulated and a woman will be unable to assured a qualified doctor.

The only way to assure a reduction of abortions is a reduction of its causes. This means more sex education at early levels, free and widely availability of contraceptives, and promotion of the morning after pill.

[mentalbunny]

The disadvantage with the mornign after pill is that you can only use it three times in your life and it's pretty expensive if you have to pay (I've known it to cost £20-25). Free condoms would be a good idea and promotion of the pill.

[RedCeltic]

Apx: $31-39 USD... I had no idea that it could only be used three times in a woman's life.

[mentalbunny]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 11:05 pm on Nov. 21, 2002
Apx: $31-39 USD... I had no idea that it could only be used three times in a woman's life.

It's because of hormones and things, it seriously messes up your cycle, like you become pretty irregular. If you use it more than three times I think it stops you from having kids ever, I caqn't remember now, I think my friend threw away my info on it in case my mum found it (the joys of being a teenager with conservative parents!).