Imperial Campaign - War on Terror in Iraq?

[Imperial Power]

Hello Everyone,
It's been awhile, but with Iraq in the United States grasp I thought a debate would be entertaining. I'll outline your leftist possition for you. The war is for oil, money, we are killing thousands of Iraqi children every day and the Iraqi people don't even want us there. Time for fact. Iraq has suffered a tyrant for the last 10 years who prevents the UN oil for food program from delivering food to the Iraqi people. He continues to seek weapons of mass destruction and recently was caught buying buying aluminum cyclinders to enrich Uranium. Saddam is a major financer of terrorism and enjoys the slaughter of innocents. Please your thoughts. Why should america wait for another attack on US soil?

[peaccenicked]

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...m=22&topic=1034 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=1034)

Hi IP. I see you are just as redneck as ever.

[LOIC]

"Iraq has suffered a tyrant for the last 10 years"
And today the world is suffered a tyrant named bush, so maybe the world should unite to attack the u$a.

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from Imperial Power on 6:04 am on Nov. 1, 2002
Iraq has suffered a tyrant for the last 10 years...

Actually, Saddam's been in power for the last 23 years. If you're suggesting that his people didn't "suffer" until 1992, then you are very much mistaken. Even though Saddam was fighting alongside the US in Iran, he was still gassing Kurds. Of course, at the time, that wasn't an issue.

As for my position, I think I've made it perfectly clear. Look at 60% of the threads in this forum for the last few months.

[suffianr]

The WMD that the Iraqis possess, namely Soviet-era ICBMs, do not have the ballistic range to hit America.

So, as long as you're safe in your little redneck neighbourhood, you shouldn't be worried about the possibility of malnourished, diseased Iraqi paratroopers gatecrashing your next County Rodeo. :)

[Imperial Power]

peace's article

ONE

IRAQ WAS INVOLVED IN THE 9/11 ATTACK ON AMERICA OR IS CLOSE TO OBTAINING NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

ANSWER: The War Party in Washington has mounted a vast campaign in conservative media to attack Iraq again. See Georgie Anne Geyer column on lobby in Anti-Arab Advocates Risk U.S. Interests. Saddam is an enemy of Islamic Fundamentalists. Iraqi women are among the most emancipated in the Moslem world. You never see Saddam wearing a robe and shouting about Holy War. Iraq has not been a supporter of "global terrorism," although it does support Palestinian terrorists against Israel's UN declared illegal settlements on the West Bank. There is no evidence of Iraqi nuclear ability, nor that it ever provided chemical weapons to other nations or terrorists.

This is a joke is it not? We go from 9/11 to womens rights in Iraq. "You never see Saddam wearing a robe and shouting about Holy War" No, actually I do. I recall many times the call for a jihad against the west. "Iraq has not been a supporter of "global terrorism," although it does support Palestinian terrorists against Israel's UN declared illegal settlements on the West Bank" Although what the fuck is although. Because the UN decleared the settlements illegal terrorism is approved? Who does the arab world and leftests throw into the same basket when convenient, the US and Israel. Seems to me the US is a strategic target in Iraq's mind. Back to the point of the answer which is never even addressed, 9/11 was celebrated like christmas in Iraq and numerous money laundering accounts have been tracked through Iraq. Iraq was I repeat was involved with 9/11.

TWO

IF WE DON'T BOMB IRAQ, SADDAM WILL USE HIS WMD AGAINST US OR HIS NEIGHBORS OR ISRAEL

ANSWER: Saddam is rational. He had these weapons during the First Gulf War and didn't use them because he feared our threats of worse consequences even when his nation was being decimated. Israel has some 200 atomic bombs and its own active biological and chemical weapons program. It can well defend itself. Meanwhile Washington arms all Iraq's neighbors (except Iran), and Turkey bombs and invades Iraq at will. Yet the pressure now in Congress to attack Iraq is based upon its unreal threat to Israel. Also, Iraq's neighbors oppose an American attack. If Iraq was such a threat, why do they not fear it?

Unfortunatly this writer fails to inform us that all the biological and chemical weapons dumps were destroyed beofre Saddam could decide to use them. Saddam knows if he had used him he would no longer be in power and probably dead anyways. According to the writter Saddam is rational though so don't worry. Theres just no conceivable way of even thinking he could turn enriched uranium over to the Al Quida. After all who could rationally think al quida which saddam funds would want to hurt innocent people. PLEASE, what are the creditionals of the idiot who wrote this "article"


THREE

IRAQ WOULDN'T LET THE UN--US MONITORS INSPECT POSSIBLE WMD PRODUCTION OR STORAGE SITES. THAT'S WHY AMERICA STARTED BOMBING.

ANSWER: Untrue – Iraq did allow them from 1991 until 1998, but Washington still wouldn’t take off the trade blockade, under which thousands of children were dying every week without clean water, electricity, etc. Scott Ritter, the former UNSCOM inspector, told CNN on 2/18/01 "In terms of large-scale weapons of mass destruction programs, these had been fundamentally destroyed or dismantled by the weapons inspectors as early as 1996." Yet Madeleine Albright declared in 1997: “We do not agree with the nations who argue that if Iraq complies with its obligations concerning weapons of mass destruction, sanctions should be lifted.” Clinton went one step further when he said, “sanctions will be there until the end of time, or as long as he [Saddam] lasts." THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION HAS NOT REPUDIATED THESE STATEMENTS.

Then in 1998 Washington made new demands, access to all government personnel files, the basis of its power structure. UN weapons inspectors were still roaming Iraq and the country had been found "clean" for 7 years. Iraq saw that U.S. demands were just always escalated with no hope of sanctions being lifted. The Iraqis also complained that most of the UN inspectors were British and American intelligence agents, who were trying to overthrow their government (Scott Ritter on CNN 1/5/02 said he had been working with Israeli intelligence from 1995-98). Clinton then launched a new bombing campaign using information from the "spy UN inspectors" for bombing targets. Iraq now fears, justifiably, that this would happen again.

I think the Iraqi department of propaganda wrote this. This is so slanted and fabricated it makes me sick to think of the uninformed who will read it. Inspectors had full access? No mention on waiting weeks for permission to enter one sight after all the evidence had been hauled away. This dumb bastard writes "IRAQ WOULDN'T LET THE UN--US MONITORS INSPECT POSSIBLE WMD PRODUCTION OR STORAGE SITES. THAT'S WHY AMERICA STARTED BOMBING." How can this be disputed it is fact! Iraq denies access to so called presidential sites for inspection. Recent defectors from Iraq acknowledge weapon research was taking place at these sites during UN inspection.

FOUR

IT'S SADDAM'S FAULT THAT HALF A MILLION CHILDREN DIED SINCE THE ECONOMIC BLOCKADE, SADDAM COULD FEED HIS PEOPLE IF HE CARED INSTEAD OF USING HIS MONEY TO BUY WEAPONS – " More than one million Iraqis have died – 500,000 of them children – as a direct consequence of economic sanctions... As many as 12% of the children surveyed in Baghdad are wasted, 28% stunted and 29% underweight." – UN FAO, December 1995. For details see Morbidity and Mortality Among Iraqi Children 1990-98.

ANSWER: Nearly all oil sales money has been controlled through United Nations officials, subject to over 35% reduction for reparations (Iraq is forbidden to contest any claim) and UN expenses, and subject to Washington's veto and foot dragging. Washington allowed food and medicine imports, but almost nothing else for economic reconstruction. For nearly ten years it blockaded chlorine to sanitize the water and any equipment to rebuild the electricity grid, sanitation and irrigation facilities. Even pencils for school children were prohibited. (A NY Times editorial 2/11/01 reports, "currently American diplomats are holding up billions of dollars of imports needed for civilian transportation, electric power generation...and even medical treatment"). Finally the Europeans rebelled at the cruelty and shamed Washington into allowing such imports, (NY Times 12/6/00). However, as of 12/2/01 about $1 billion of electric and other machinery has been held up for a year by Washington. Until oil prices increased in 2000, sales ran about $4 billion yearly minus about 35% withheld by UN left 2.6 billion divided by 20 million population = $130 per year per person = 36 cents per day per person for food, medicine.

Iraq is now also getting substantial monies through sales of smuggled oil, especially since the price of oil went up and the rest of the world tires of the American blockade. No doubt some of this goes for weapons purchases.

Did i just read this correctly "Iraq is now also getting substantial monies through sales of smuggled oil, especially since the price of oil went up and the rest of the world tires of the American blockade. No doubt some of this goes for weapons purchases." The theme of this article is do nothing wait for them to attack you. Unfuckingbelieveable. and this is supposed to argue saddam is in no way responsible for the dying children.

FIVE

IF IRAQ ALLOWED INSPECTIONS FOR WMD (WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION), WASHINGTON WOULD REMOVE THE BLOCKADE. IRAQ MUST PROVE THAT IT HAS NO WMD AND THAT IT WON'T MANUFACTURE ANY IN THE FUTURE.

ANSWER: There's No Connection Between Inspections and Sanctions on Iraq. Equally no Nation can "prove" a negative, that it's not doing something. Biological and chemical weapons can be made, "in a large closet which is all the space you need to mix deadly chemical weapons... Chemical and biological weapons are the great equalizers against our atomic weapons." (Time "Everyman a Superpower", 11/24/97).

Re inspections, Reuters reported, 12/13/99, "The (European) aim was to prevent the United States and Britain from imposing arms requirements that Iraq could not meet and thus keeping the sanctions in place for years to come." And Agence France Presse 12/13/99, "French diplomats retorted that by insisting on full cooperation, the council would give the United States an excuse to refuse to suspend sanctions on the flimsiest grounds.”

Scott Ritter, former head of the U.N. arms inspection team in Iraq, on the NBC Today Show, 12/17/98, explained, "Washington perverted the U.N. weapons process by using it as a tool to justify military actions... The U.S. was using the inspection process as a trigger for war." For details on how Iraq complied, e.g. 700 inspections by UN/US officials, and grew to realize that Washington would prevent the sanctions from ever being lifted see Le Monde-Diplomatique . Note also that Iraq did not expel the inspectors. The U.N. withdrew them in anticipation of the extensive American bombing attacks.

I assure you sanctions will be lifted as soon as the tyrant is out of power. More ultra liberal bullshit of how great a guy saddam is.

SIX

IT'S IRAQ'S FAULT THAT THE BLOCKADE CONTINUES. AMERICA HAS NOTHING AGAINST IRAQ'S PEOPLE, ONLY AGAINST ITS GOVERNMENT.

ANSWER: Britain and Washington have introduced a "peace plan"demanding that Iraq must allow inspections, but would still be under the trade blockade indefinitely.

Russia and France have introduced a plan (vetoed by Washington) allowing for immediate lifting of sanctions in return for continued, ongoing WMD inspections and blockade of military supplies. Washington's policy (also followed in Serbia) is to tell local dictators to get themselves killed or thrown out of power (and then tried for "war crimes") or otherwise have their citizenry starve while their country's devastated economy is kept in ruins. The policy was denounced by former Pres. Jimmy Carter . (For detailed discussion of UN resolutions see CASI from Cambridge and IAC detailed analysis of UN Resolution)

Most nations in the world want trade sanctions lifted for non-military goods. It is the U.S. veto that prevents lifting of sanctions (United Press, 11/1/00). Imposed in 1990 many nations argue that they were never intended to last for years and are one of the most brutal sanction regimes in modern history. The crippling trade embargo is incompatible with the UN charter as well as UN conventions on human rights and the rights of the child (BBC News Online, 9/30/00).

Is this the third point on the same issue, must have run out of ideas. Tell me how the US decided its good to surpress the innocent civilians of iraq.

SEVEN

SADDAM GASSED HIS OWN PEOPLE

ANSWER: Atrocities are often the key substance of propaganda to get Americans to go to war. Didn’t our government also do that at Waco? The C2 gas used by the FBI killed children who couldn’t fit into gas masks and then created an explosive mixture which triggered fire and immolation, (see super documentary, Waco, nominated for an Academy Award).

To see how good natured Americans are lied to by our own government see, How Hill and Knowlton Public Relations "sold" the Iraq War). For the First World War, it was stories that German soldiers ate Belgian babies. For the Iraq war it was lies about babies being thrown out of incubators, "testified" to a Congressional Committee, with massive media coverage, by a "mystery" witness who later turned out to be the daughter of the Kuwaiti sheik’s ruling family who is Ambassador in Washington. It was all lies. Then we were told there were aerial photographs of the Iraqi Army massed on Saudi Arabia’s border ready to attack. They were never released; they apparently were lies too. How do we know we weren't also lied to about the gassing? See Jude Wanniski Report on gassing for questions about it.

For more background and earlier answers about Iraq, please go to http://iraqwar.org/talking-points.htm and to http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-consp.htm#one about the missing evidence that Iraq was planning to attack Saudi Arabia in 1990


Oh jeez I thought Saddam used Nerve Gas. I guess thats the same as a crowd control gas used during an uprising. Unlike wacco being an accident saddam intended the results and the people killed were totally innocent.

EIGHT

A WAR WOULD BE QUICK AND EASY TO WIN. IRAQIS WOULD WELCOME AMERICANS TO OVERTHROW THEIR CRUEL DICTATOR. AMERICA WOULD THEN SET UP A FRIENDLY REGIME, EASILY OCCUPY THE COUNTRY AND RID IT OF WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION.

ANSWER: To assume that after massive new bombing (what we always do) and killing tens of thousands more Arabs, that America would be welcome is unreal. Also Washington is now considered in the Arab world as an instrument of Israeli policies. More likely would be continuing guerrilla warfare against occupying Americans, possible break up of the nation, economic chaos in Jordan and Turkey which trade with Iraq, and/or the rise of a new dictator. War, once started, has its own momentum. Arnaud de Borchgrave draws a possible scenario of a worldwide oil crisis, overthrow of pro-U.S. Moslem regimes, and chaos for American interests.

Also millions more Moslems would be seeking vengeance against America. There would be little support in Congress for a prolonged occupation and "Democracy building."

The military victory will be achieved and instilling democracy will take some years but it can be done. Once the Iraqi people stopping getting their 24 hour a day dose of anti-american propaganda and the people are educated the system will change.

The entire article was idiotic full of holes identifiable by anyone how anyone believes it takes imagination.

[Solzhenitsyn]

The WMD that the Iraqis possess, namely Soviet-era ICBMs, do not have the ballistic range to hit America.

What the fuck? Iraq doesn't not now nor has it ever possessed Soviet ICBM's. ICBM - stands for InterContinental Ballistic Missile. In other words missile fired from one continent to targets in another. I think you mean the Scud-C missile which is the NATO codeword for a surface to surface tactical missile. Furthermore, just because you have missiles does not mean you have a WMD. You still need a Nuclear, Biological or Chemical (NBC) warhead. WMD is newspeak for NBC weapons.

[Moskitto]

IP, YEY!!!!!!!!!

I disagree with what you say, I just missed you.

[Stormin Norman]

"What the fuck? Iraq doesn't not now nor has it ever possessed Soviet ICBM's. ICBM - stands for InterContinental Ballistic Missile. In other words missile fired from one continent to targets in another. I think you mean the Scud-C missile which is the NATO codeword for a surface to surface tactical missile. Furthermore, just because you have missiles does not mean you have a WMD. You still need a Nuclear, Biological or Chemical (NBC) warhead. WMD is newspeak for NBC weapons."

All signs point to the conclusion that Saddam has chemical and biological weapons. He is in pursuit of nuclear weapons. If he acquires the fissile material it could be six months to a year out. None of these weapons need a sophisticated delivery system like an ICBM, but Saddam has put tremendous amount resources into the development of delivery systems. Furthermore, with countries like North Korea and Pakistan, who do have intermediate range capability, Iraq could buy the needed information to obtain these systems. Should we let him progress to that point? I think not. Kill the bastard, take Castro out while you're at it.



(Edited by Stormin Norman at 10:43 am on Nov. 2, 2002)

[peaccenicked]

.
ONE.
IRAQ is a SECULAR state dumb ass.
There is no evidence that Iraq was involved with 9/11.
No matter how hard the warmongers like you want to make things stick.
http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/cra0439.htm
http://www.intelmessages.org/Messages/Nati...ssages/255.html (http://www.intelmessages.org/Messages/National_Security/Archives/Archive_02/wwwboard/messages/255.html)

TWO.
Saddam is a cruel dictator but is not as foolish as you.
Although he has been set up by the CIA.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA%20Hi...aq_CIAHits.html (http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA%20Hits/Iraq_CIAHits.html)

THREE

It is impossible to prove a negative. How can any nation prove that it does not have bombs?
Use your head IP for once. How come recent defectors appear when the warmongers needs them.
FOUR
If you think Saddam is going to attack the US then you are just a paranoid idiot. Attacking Iraq though may cause you to have serious concern. Presently the CIA agrees with me on this.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1013-04.htm
FIVE
You are simply misinformed, and arrogant.
http://www.accuracy.org/iraq.htm
SIX
Madeline Albright said that the lives of 500,000 children were worth gettig rid of Saddam.
SEVEN
WACO an accident. Your boys can do no wrong except in Vietnam.. you have made me laugh again.
http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/...43/nbc/nbc.html (http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/System/1543/nbc/nbc.html)
EIGHT
America is going to brainwash the Iraqis. How amusing.
Occupiers have a history of being reppelled.
Anycase. Life is not nearly that simple.
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/11/fallows.htm

Bye bye IP


(Edited by peaccenicked at 7:19 am on Nov. 2, 2002)

[Imperial Power]

1.peace peace peace, Iraq is very muslim heres a little article to expand your mind just see if you can ponder a 9/11 connection from this alone.

Saddam Hussein: 'Fight the enemies of God'
Text of the statement issued by Hussein after the U.S. airstrikes:
December 16, 1998
Web posted at: 11:21 p.m. EST (0421 GMT)
President Saddam addresses Iraqi people during a new U.S. and British aggression on Iraq.

The great people of Iraq, sons of the brave armed forces, in this day and this night of December 16-17 -- as they did eight years ago on a similar night -- the wicked people bombarded several targets on the soil of your great Iraq, thinking they will twist your great will and your determination, your virtue and dignity, your will of faith, righteousness and jihad (holy war).

We know, you beloved men and women, that the thing that hurt you most was not their aggression or their aggressive nature, but because they didn't come to meet you face to face, depending on a long technological arm, which is not a measure of bravery.

Courage is your steadfastness, your valor and your jihad. So resist and fight them as we trusted you and in the same way you are known for.

Fight the enemies of God, enemies of the nation and enemies of humanity. God will be on your side and disgrace will be theirs, now and on the day of the judgment.


I will just add those air strikes destoyed radar stations that continually painted US air craft for SAM sites.

2. What kind of bullshit response is this?

3. What the hell is "it is immposible to prove a negative." It sure is hard to prove when inspectors are not allowed to inspect right peace?

4. Check for reading comprehension. Point of article was saddam is not involved in children going hungry. Heres the liberal answer "Iraq is now also getting substantial monies through sales of smuggled oil, especially since the price of oil went up and the rest of the world tires of the American blockade. No doubt some of this goes for weapons purchases. " This is the kind of crap that will prevent liberal politics from ever being a serious force force in the modern world.

5. When Iraq falls in line with the rest of the world sanctions will fall.

6. Madeline albirght spoke only for herself out of frustration at a reporter who if i remember her correctly was badgering her. But what do you expect out of the clinton administration.

7. So the fire was planned from the start peace? Back to the issue he used FUCKING NERVE GAS!

8. Peace the iraqi people can create their own government once they are out of oppresion with UN assistance.

Peace enough with all your damn links.

[peaccenicked]

1
Holy war does not mean terrorism. Saddam was addressing his own people and inspiring them to resist invasion, in much the same way Castro did after the Bay of Pigs. Iraq is a muslim country but it is also secular meaning it allows other religions to be practised.
This is not like afghanistan were the moderate muslims were oppressed and no other religion was allowed.
2
Could you elobarate. The word bullshit hides your thoughts.
3
It is impossible to prove an a negative even if everywhere The US wanted was open to inspection. There would always be somewere to make weapons. You dont need a big room to make chemical or biological weapons. It is a bit like looking for Bin laden. There is always somewhere to hide.
The whole process is just illogical bullshit designed to intimidate Saddam and the whole world knows it.
4. Yea I answered the wrong point. My mistake.
You support sanctions. At least half of the sanctions have nothing to do with military materials. This is another sick joke that most of the word knows about.
http://www.cam.ac.uk/societies/casi/guide/quotes.html
5. You are talking about a regime change to end sanctions as if it is the only solution. You and the warmonger are dead set on war even if Saddam gives into UN resolutions which seems most likely.
6. So you disagree with Albright.
7. http://globalresearch.ca/articles/THO209A.html
8. This is what I told you Afghanistan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1984459.stm) was about. This time the CIA have bown the whistle.http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/09/...2055034013.html (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/09/22/1032055034013.html)

Incidently here is what regime changes are good for.

RAWA's appeal to the UN and World community





The people of Afghanistan do not accept domination of the Northern Alliance!




Now it is confirmed that the Taliban have left Kabul and the Northern Alliance has entered the city.

The world should understand that the Northern Alliance is composed of some bands who did show their real criminal and inhuman nature when they were ruling Afghanistan from 1992 to 1996.

The retreat of the terrorist Taliban from Kabul is a positive development, but entering of the rapist and looter NA in the city is nothing but a dreadful and shocking news for about 2 million residents of Kabul whose wounds of the years 1992-96 have not healed yet.

Thousands of people who fled Kabul during the past two months were saying that they feared coming to power of the NA in Kabul much more than being scared by the US bombing.

The Taliban and Al-Qaeda will be eliminated, but the existence of the NA as a military force would shatter the joyful dream of the majority for an Afghanistan free from the odious chains of barbaric Taliban. The NA will horribly intensify the ethnic and religious conflicts and will never refrain to fan the fire of another brutal and endless civil war in order to retain in power. The terrible news of looting and inhuman massacre of the captured Taliban or their foreign accomplices in Mazar-e-Sharif in past few days speaks for itself.

Though the NA has learned how to pose sometimes before the West as "democratic" and even supporter of women's rights, but in fact they have not at all changed, as a leopard cannot change its spots.

RAWA has already documented heinous crimes of the NA. Time is running out. RAWA on its own part appeals to the UN and world community as a whole to pay urgent and considerable heed to the recent developments in our ill-fated Afghanistan before it is too late.

We would like to emphatically ask the UN to send its effective peace-keeping force into the country before the NA can repeat the unforgettable crimes they committed in the said years.

The UN should withdraw its recognition to the so-called Islamic government headed by Rabbani and help the establishment of a broad-based government based on the democratic values.

RAWA's call stems from the aspirations of the vast majority of the people of Afghanistan.




Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA)