Key Question:

[American Kid]

Interested in your (yes, YOUR) analysis.

-AK

[peaccenicked]

The key question in the world today is imperialism (http://www.oz.net/~vvawai/sw/sw40/imperialism.html). The issue of wealth redistribution is
very important but what use any wealth at all if the planet is destroyed. The world has to be made aware of the threat of global warming (http://www.bashar.com/GSP/sciwarn1.htm) and we must stop it.
It is an insane oil man who is effectively in charge of the world. It is important that American patriots realise their
responsibility to the world and stop Bush and the military/ industrial complex. This means we are campaigning for both a sane imperialist policy,while campaigning to end imperialism which leaves
the poorest countries giving to the richest.
In the immediate we have to stop Bush and Blair going to war with Iraq. The logic of imperialism is totally insane.
Even the CIA think Bush is wrong. (http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2002/10/29102002161249.asp)

(Edited by peaccenicked at 4:11 am on Oct. 31, 2002)

[Michael De Panama]

Democracy is where everyone in a society has equal political power and are politically interdependent. Capitalism is where everyone in a society has different levels of economic power and are (supposed to be) economically independent. Does one equal the other? They could, if reality doesn't sink in.

And the reality is that economics are the most important aspect of any civilization. Economics are what gave birth to civilization. The very reason that government was ever created was to maintain order over whatever horticultural, agricultrual, or pastoral economy that early civilizations were built on. Therefore, economic power is not only stronger than political and social power, it also pretty much controls society and politics themselves. An inequal division of wealth will inevitably lead to an inequal concentration of political power.

Capitalism, therefore, can never exist alongside democracy. When it tries to, those who control capital end up being the same who control the government. It's pretty much democratic centralism of the bourgeoisie, as I've told some of the fascists over at the Phora. Capitalism, promoting inequality, and democracy, promoting equality, conflict with one another. ANY capitalist society that attempts democracy only becomes a plutocracy. Until private ownership is no more, there will be nothing but plutocracies.

So, of course capitalism doesn't equal democracy. A very primitive anarchist society would be closer to true capitalist ideals than democracy.

[IzmSchism]

kind of a side of fries thing, not to totally answer your question, but, here in Korea they have the AFN, The American Forces Network for all the soldier cats so they can get their fix of survivor and ray romano, and WWF, well anyways, they have their propogandic moments, the last one I saw was on Imperialism. They cited examples of protest movements in the US against major corporations and explained that in fact it is a large majority of foreign controlled companies that operate in the US, that it is ironic and backward that people protest over the US's imperialism which in fact the sole owners are not american. Well, I think the short AFN clip might have missed the point, although it was easy enough to understand what they were attempting to do.

But back to the main order, your question, I feel De Panama on this. "Enduring Freedom" the code name for the attack on al queda, but more so Afghanistan was the attempt to liberate the country from oppresion, and replace it with Democracy, the same altruistic attitude is being planned for Saddam and Iraq. A supposed democracy that goes around trying to force their political values on other countries.

[peaccenicked]

Ah Michael.
You have picked up on one of my points. Most organisations are democratic centralist, it is all a matter of degrees. I would say all organisations but some organisations have no democracy whatsoever or only democracy for the elite. The point I continually make to the anarchists is that democracy has a centre.
The only way to abolish centralism,is to abolish democracy positively, is to have a constant consensus, which is actually the goal of communism for all society.
This would involve as far as I can see a high degree of universal political culture. Politics would become as easy as playing ludo.

[Solzhenitsyn]

AK,

Libertarians are fond of saying so. People will vote with their wallets. If a particular company or institution does them wrong then they'll withhold financial support. There is no obligation for a particular individual to finacially support any company. Vote with their feet in a manner of speaking. There are flaws in this argument that I'll let some other peson disect.

[Goldfinger]

Democracy is based on greek. Demo means people, or the masses; so democracy must mean that the people are in control, and the people make the rules. A true democracy has never existed, but there have been more or less succesful attempts on it around the world. USA isn't even trying. If the big companies, the rich people or corrupt politicians are in charge, it's not democracy. It's the money that decide, not the people.

[El Che]

No it does not. The fact that such a question can be taken seriously, if it infact is, which I believe is the case, is most disturbing. It is symtomatic of the current mainstream idealogical and philosophical world view that reeks of indoctrination, falsehood and blood.

[Fabi]

in capitalism power lies in the hands of the wealthy.

in a democracy power lies in the hands of the people.

we have neither a perfect democracy nor pure capitalism anywhere, i believe.

[guerrillaradio]

Capitalism and democracy are not mutually exclusive. They're interchangeable. That seems quite obvious to me.

[Valkyrie]

It is important that American patriots realise their
responsibility to the world and stop Bush and the military/ industrial complex. This means we are campaigning for both a sane imperialist policy,while campaigning to end imperialism which leaves
---

I agree global warming, and environmental factors take a certain precedence over the stability of the world. Nuclear everything also needs to be disabled. However, and though I am not a Patriot to any kind of system nor a conspiracy theorist, I can tell you however, the American people are powerless to do shit to stop this guy. Campaigning and elections are a facade of a non-existent democracy in the US. I don't know who exactly is running things, but it is obvious that Bush was installed and primed for this job, and it's obvious why he was installed - Imperialism & Oil, and this saga has probably been unfolding to get to this culmination of players for the last couple decades. However, I don't think it is just the US benefiting from this grand business deal, I think the middle-eastern oil barons(Saudi and probably a lot of others) have just as much stake in it.
I would say more, but I'll start sounding like a freak; however I've come to the conclusion that the responsibility lies squarely on the shoulders of the rest of the world's leaders and it's imperative they unite and knock the US off its pedestal before it's too late.



(Edited by Paris at 9:07 pm on Oct. 31, 2002)

[anti machine]

are we all forgetting that the u.s. is not a capitalist system? adam smith's description of a capitalist gov't is contrary to u.s. economics. free trade is SUPPOSED to be our motto, but the business tycoons have taken power and monopolized even the government. How can democracy work in a system such as this?

and besides, America is far from a democracy. I like to call it an oligarchical reign of the rich and powerful. OUr vote counts not. the choices have been made for us. we are dissillusioning ourselves with "power of the vote" and that bullshit rhetoric. the people are powerless, protests accomplish nothing. the answer is a mass strike, a people's revolution. but first the people must be enlightened, awakened from thier indifferent slumber. I think the first steps are in progress, but it will be a long, hard process.

[American Kid]

El Che, I'll do my best in the future to prevent my feeble mind from wandering off toward such rediculous, superfulous thoughts.

I'll just accept things as they are, and refrain from picking people's brains. As this "daydreaming" is but mainstream/media/culture-induced poison, as lethal and destructive as religion, and counterrevolutionary at that...........

"comrade".

Ah, if only I operated to your capacity................*sighs*. To be in possesion of the prescient ability to see through the diabolical venear of "the current mainstream, idealogical, and philosophical worldview that reeks of indoctrination, falsehood, and blood" (chillingly proufound, btw.........).

And I can only pray until the day comes I am blind no more..................someday..........oh, someday...........

-the mainstream, indoctrinated cog

[peaccenicked]

El che. All bourgeios revolutions in the advanced countries had a democratic content, this content is inadequate to the needs of the proletariat and society as a whole. Property relations as the source of ideology and war are precisely what makes bourgeois democracy inadequate. The question has merit. One of the ideological underpinnings of capitalism is that it is democratic. Many people have come to accept the universal franchise as the definition of democracy. Socialists have still have to stress to the working class that democracy is more than an X every four years, it is a right to have a say in the running of every aspect of ones life as a dailly participant in democracy. It is the task of socialists to prepare the working class for self rule.

(Edited by peaccenicked at 6:03 am on Nov. 1, 2002)

[American Kid]

*drools*.............ughhhh........

No, comrade Peacceniked, comrade al che has shown me and rightly instructed me that such thoughts are unncecessary and weak and indicitive of flaws in my design..........

*drools* ungghhh................
-AK

then, promptly *gives the finger*

[Exploited Class]

The only thing even democratic about capitalism is "voting with your dollars". That is it.

Capitalism is not a government form, it is an economic condition, democracy is a form of government or better to say flow design of a government.

Capitalism is the free exchange of good and services for a monetary sum that is established between parties. Of course this "free" exchange action can have serious consequences hence the fact that many of us are socialists/communists.

Which brings us to communism - which is an economic form, not a governmental. The people decide what to do with economical side of their society through democracy. Instead of a vote by dollar it becomes a vote by people. The methods to do so can vary.

So no, capitalism does not equate to democracy. It does however with its ability to create insanely rich and powerful individuals and corporation entities, give power to a minority to outweigh and sway the clear and unadulterated voice of the people.

[El Che]

I maintain that the question has no merit whatsoever. Others are free to disagree, of course, following their own chain of thought. To me it is the kind of thing I find annoying, and I`ll not refrain from saying so. Annoying for two reasons: First because it is obviously false (that democracy is "equal" to capitalism or that the former is precondiction to some form of existence of the latter) and secondly because such an obsurd, viscious lie is considered seriously and repeated in public by people who manage to keep a straight face. I know the culture of mediocrity is very much in fashion but I`ve no reason to refrain from saying what I think of common sense notions such as this one. It is this [type of] common sense,that many if not most people share, that is the biggest obstacle to change.

"All bourgeios revolutions in the advanced countries had a democratic content (...)"

A very shallow content at that. Democracy of the kind brought about by the rising of the bourgeoisie is merely the substitution of aristocracy by blood with aristocracy by wealth. The fact is that in their atempt to gain political power the bourgeoisie often alllied them selves with popular discontent, when the same existed, though they did so with ulterior motives. To say that the [true] democractic conquests of the last centuries are bourgeois in the making is a crime. Take the french revolution for instance. While on the one hand you had a bourgeoisie class that could see many advantages in removing aristocratical domination over society, on the other hand you had a popular class feed up with an existence of misery that only furthered the interests of priviledge. Will anyone contend that the ideals of the french revolution are bourgeois ideals!? Likewise will anyone defend that the illuminist ideas which impregnated the masses are something we should thank the bourgoisie for!?
The institution of Monarchy fell because times had changed, and therein are contained many causes including bourgeoisie lust for political power, but it was not bourgeoisie power that brought about democratic change but rather the power of ideas, the power of masses with ideas and ideals. The bourgoisie heeded this power but it made shure that inspite of it theirs remained and indeed grew.

But the subject of this post is weather or not democracy is the same as capitalism. To answer that it would suffice to point out those nations to which the unescapable power of the markets has come but in which libertarian ideals have yet to gain acceptance among the masses. Here AK you have concrete examples in practice of capitalism without democracy. Examples both past and present.

And AK,

I`m sorry if what I think of your question has ticked you off :(, its nothing personal I assure you. However I find your answer most amusing. I think your somewhat insecure and maybe you thought I was attacking you in post.... I can tell you that all my thoughts expressed here are genuine and I think you wouldnt doubt me if you knew me better. My ideas of the subject were not and are not a personal attack, nore could they be for you merely asked a question and it does not follow that you share the belief questioned. If you think badly of me I really cant help you there, I`ll not change for you or for anyone else and you can think what you like, but you should have respect even for those you do not like or you are deserving of none.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

If capitalism equals democracy do you really think that the majority would like to be underpaid and exploited workers?I don't think so.

Like many of our comrades say FUCK CAPITALISM!!!!!