the conservative temperment of anarchism

[trivas7]

I would argue that there is something radically conservative re the temperment of anarchist thought. In its attempt to balance the individual and society it expresses a profound dissatisfaction with contemporary society, but longs for an unrealizable utopia. Consider e.g. this essay by a libertarian that treats H. Spencer -- a precursor to philosophic anarchism -- as "the first dialectician":

http://www.nyu.edu/projects/sciabarra/essays/spencer.htm

[The Feral Underclass]

Libertarianism and anarchism are two different things. Also, this premise that anarchism is longing for a "unrealizable utopia" is not an argument; it's an opinion based on very little evidence except of course your inability to conceptualise a world without centralised political authority.

"Oh my god, chaos! No state...Madness. Utopian dreaming and utter madness...Mad, just mad...no state....madness!"

[Kropotesta]

I would argue that there is something radically conservative re the temperment of anarchist thought. In its attempt to balance the individual and society it expresses a profound dissatisfaction with contemporary society, but longs for an unrealizable utopia. Consider e.g. this essay by a libertarian that treats H. Spencer -- a precursor to philosophic anarchism -- as "the first dialectician":

http://www.nyu.edu/projects/sciabarra/essays/spencer.htm
Well well well Trav, you still have no idea what anarchism actually is......good one!
If you aren't going to listen to any of us, please read some anarchist literature, that doesn't mean libertarianism nor anarcho-capitalism, jeez even anarcho-primitivism is better than them to!

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

This is nonsense. Anarchism is probably the least utopian of all the revolutionary left. Most of the "heavy" theorists state the anarchism is no end utopia, but merely the beginning.

[There is No God!]

I would argue that there is something radically conservative re the temperment of anarchist thought. In its attempt to balance the individual and society it expresses a profound dissatisfaction with contemporary society, but longs for an unrealizable utopia. Consider e.g. this essay by a libertarian that treats H. Spencer -- a precursor to philosophic anarchism -- as "the first dialectician":

http://www.nyu.edu/projects/sciabarra/essays/spencer.htm

So, what's your particular ideology? and what's make's you think it's not an 'unrealizable utopia'?

[Bilan]

So, what's your particular ideology? and what's make's you think it's not an 'unrealizable utopia'?

He's some sort of Leninist.


I would argue that there is something radically conservative re the temperment of anarchist thought. In its attempt to balance the individual and society it expresses a profound dissatisfaction with contemporary society, but longs for an unrealizable utopia. Consider e.g. this essay by a libertarian that treats H. Spencer -- a precursor to philosophic anarchism -- as "the first dialectician":

What utter rubbish.

[Bright Banana Beard]

Stop spurring your ignorant, until you learn wtf we are. Word are just word, action is different.

[zelda]

Some believe we are being led into fascism.

[trivas7]

Some believe we are being led into fascism.
What do you mean? Who is "we"?

[trivas7]

Word are just word, action is different.
How perceptive of you. Do you think there's a reason I posted in Learning?

[nvm]

Anarchy in the uSA is coming some time it might be!
By Megadeth!
Listen to this song and you 'll understand that anarchism is not a utopia.
I think the lyrics of that song are better than anything written on anarchism by any anarchist theoritician :D

[trivas7]

Anarchy in the uSA is coming some time it might be!
By Megadeth!
Listen to this song and you 'll understand that anarchism is not a utopia.
I think the lyrics of that song are better than anything written on anarchism by any anarchist theoritician :D
The question the original post ask is: does anarchism express a conservative temperment insofar as it is politically unengaged? :blink:

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

The question the original post ask is: does anarchism express a conservative temperment insofar as it is politically unengaged? :blink:


And the question is nonsensical. What does "politically unengaged" mean. I'm incredulous, considering that anarchism is a political ideal.

[trivas7]

And the question is nonsensical. What does "politically unengaged" mean. I'm incredulous, considering that anarchism is a political ideal.
Really. And here I was all along thinking it was the idea that human beings are at their very best when they are living free of authority, deciding things among themselves rather than being ordered about.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Really. And here I was all along thinking it was the idea that human beings are at their very best when they are living free of authority, deciding things among themselves rather than being ordered about.
Yes... but that's the very opposite of the conservative temperament. The conservative view of human beings is basically the one expressed by Hobbes.

[trivas7]

The conservative view of human beings is basically the one expressed by Hobbes.
Hobbes wrote a lot. What specifically? The accedence to a social contract? Does this characterize a conservative?

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

Hobbes believed that in our natural state humanity was a "war of all against all." Thus he thought humans were incapable of peaceably coexisting, necessitating the creation of a powerful dictatorship. That's pretty conservative. Anarchism posits the opposite, that we can live in a society without a war of all against all.

[Bilan]

Really. And here I was all along thinking it was the idea that human beings are at their very best when they are living free of authority, deciding things among themselves rather than being ordered about.

What are you talking about?
You've yet to make one single point about how anarchism is "radically conservative" or has some sort of basis in such thought.

[Mujer Libre]

What are you talking about?
You've yet to make one single point about how anarchism is "radically conservative" or has some sort of basis in such thought.
Indeed. Even the link that was posted has absolutely nothing to do with anarchism.

I think this was a situation where the OP decided that he didn't like anarchism. Then looked for an "argument" to support this. Of course- that doesn't actually work...

[trivas7]

Insofar as anarchists don't engage in the political process they are a conservative -- indeed, a reactionary -- force in society.

[Bilan]

Insofar as anarchists don't engage in the political process they are a conservative -- indeed, a reactionary -- force in society.

That position is absolutely bankrupt.

[Jazzratt]

Insofar as anarchists don't engage in the political process they are a conservative -- indeed, a reactionary -- force in society.

You clearly have no idea what the hell you're talking about if you believe anarchists don't engage in the political process.

[Demogorgon]

Hobbes wrote a lot. What specifically? The accedence to a social contract? Does this characterize a conservative?

Actually, I think the Social Contract position is inherently conservative, but that is another matter. The Conservatism of Hobbes being referenced is the notion that the best society is one with a single absolute ruler.

The Hobbsian model is hence the ultimate form of Conservatism and anarchism is, of course, the opposite.

Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of problems with anarchism, but it is certainly not Conservative.

I guess certain anarchists might be de facto small-c conservatives because of unwillingness to accept partial achievement of goals, but you get that in all leftist positions.

[Incendiarism]

The anarchist movement suffers from nihilists who call themselves anarchists who don't participate in anything and think self-accommodation and shutting your eyes and ears to society is all one can do. They hardly represent the majority of actual anarchists, but they're really vocal and prominent so perhaps you have us confused for them?

As for the idea of the political process...I thought this was revleft? Not only does it go against the very principles of anarchism(though I do believe some CNT officials accepted government positions in civil war spain - anybody care to substantiate?), but its ultimately ineffective in the long run. There is only so much you can do under a bourgeois democracy capitalist framework when you want to achieve an anarchist society and anything short of revolution is ridiculous.

[Red October]

Insofar as anarchists don't engage in the political process they are a conservative -- indeed, a reactionary -- force in society.

:lol:
Are you drunk?

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of problems with anarchism, but it is certainly not Conservative.


Yet that doesn't stop you from skulking around libcom:laugh:

[Kropotesta]

Stop giving Trav a hard time! I'm sure he'll rectify his misunderstandings before long.

[Lector Malibu]

Insofar as anarchists don't engage in the political process they are a conservative -- indeed, a reactionary -- force in society.

Not true whatsoever.

[trivas7]

The anarchist movement suffers from nihilists who call themselves anarchists who don't participate in anything and think self-accommodation and shutting your eyes and ears to society is all one can do. They hardly represent the majority of actual anarchists, but they're really vocal and prominent so perhaps you have us confused for them?

As for the idea of the political process...I thought this was revleft? Not only does it go against the very principles of anarchism(though I do believe some CNT officials accepted government positions in civil war spain - anybody care to substantiate?), but its ultimately ineffective in the long run. There is only so much you can do under a bourgeois democracy capitalist framework when you want to achieve an anarchist society and anything short of revolution is ridiculous.
Thanks for this thoughtful response. Some radical faeries and anarcho-primitivists have brought me to this conclusion, I'll try to keep an open mind.

[Kropotesta]

Thanks for this thoughtful response. Some radical faeries and anarcho-primitivists have brought me to this conclusion, I'll try to keep an open mind.
Well primitivists are restricted here, so that should kind of give the general consenus of them here.
By the way, what's a readical faerie?

[trivas7]

By the way, what's a radical faerie?
Queer anarchists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_faerie

[Incendiarism]

Just remember that the lifestylists are generally disliked, and there's always been bad blood between green anarchists and the rest. But now that I think about it, they're generally one in the same.

[Demogorgon]

Yet that doesn't stop you from skulking around libcom:laugh:

Pardon?:confused:

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

Pardon?:confused:

I always find it kinda funny that yall spend more time on libcom than most libertarian communists. Nothing bad, just confused, since yall don't seem to be much like anarchists, save for the anti lenin thing.

[Demogorgon]

I always find it kinda funny that yall spend more time on libcom than most libertarian communists. Nothing bad, just confused, since yall don't seem to be much like anarchists, save for the anti lenin thing.I've never been on that site in my life.

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

I've never been on that site in my life.

Wow that's really weird. There's a poster there known as Demogorgon303 (http://libcom.org/user/demogorgon303) and figured you were one in the same.
(http://libcom.org/user/demogorgon303)

[Demogorgon]

Wow that's really weird. There's a poster there known as Demogorgon303 (http://libcom.org/user/demogorgon303) and figured you were one in the same.
(http://libcom.org/user/demogorgon303)

Nope. Certainly not me.

[Devrim]

The guy on Libcom is a left communist. It is a bit of a strange name, but I presume it is just chance.

Devrim

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

The guy on Libcom is a left communist. It is a bit of a strange name, but I presume it is just chance.

Devrim


Chance or something else...perhaps having to do with...the New World Order?

[Wake Up]

I suppose original conservative thought held the view that the people should be left alone, but this is within a capitalist system so doesn't really hold water in an anarchist society.

[Lector Malibu]

Chance or something else...perhaps having to do with...the New World Order?

He said it's not him , so "it is what it is" I guess.

[Demogorgon]

He said it's not him , so "it is what it is" I guess.

It isn't even that uncommon a forum name. Anybody who is into Black Metal or Literature or Mythology or whatever will know it. You see people using it all the time.

The poster on LibCom is neither myself nor anybody impersonating me. Hardly anything to worry about:)

[Lector Malibu]

It isn't even that uncommon a forum name. Anybody who is into Black Metal or Literature or Mythology or whatever will know it. You see people using it all the time.

The poster on LibCom is neither myself nor anybody impersonating me. Hardly anything to worry about:)

True .

[rebelworker]

Word to the wise, Ignore most of what passes for anarchism in the Bay Area (or huge swaths of the US for that matter).

Most Anarchists (in the global and or historical scense) have a decent head on their shoulders...

[trivas7]

Word to the wise, Ignore most of what passes for anarchism in the Bay Area (or huge swaths of the US for that matter).

Can you say more? Is there something specific re the Left Coast anarchists that is endemic to the region? Many are wise and compassionate, I find.

I'm was thinking of the John Muir types that populated the Western US, evironmentalists, anarcho-primitivists, perhaps going back to the Transcendentalists, e.g.

[Gterl23]

Anarchism has always been a petite-bourgeois ideology, mostly riven by the ultra-naive idealism of students and those with an angry-teen complex, you'll notice the 'blame government' complex of libertarian kids is pretty much the same as on the 'left' of anarchism.

[Kropotesta]

Anarchism has always been a petite-bourgeois ideology, mostly riven by the ultra-naive idealism of students and those with an angry-teen complex, you'll notice the 'blame government' complex of libertarian kids is pretty much the same as on the 'left' of anarchism.
Would you care to back any of that up?

[Jazzratt]

Anarchism has always been a petite-bourgeois ideology, mostly riven by the ultra-naive idealism of students and those with an angry-teen complex, you'll notice the 'blame government' complex of libertarian kids is pretty much the same as on the 'left' of anarchism.

No it isn't.

Blind assertions: A brilliant way to argue!

[Incendiarism]

Hey, speak for yourself man, I'm not angry.

[Gterl23]

Why would I bother to argue with a bourgeois liberal? That is after all what anarchism represents; just another class enemy.

[Kropotesta]

Why would I bother to argue with a bourgeois liberal? That is after all what anarchism represents; just another class enemy.
:laugh:
Are you actually trying to come across as ignorant? What is liberal about revolutionary anarchism? Do you even know what anarchism is?

[Bright Banana Beard]

:laugh:
Are you actually trying to come across as ignorant? What is liberal about revolutionary anarchism? Do you even know what anarchism is?
He is, after all he said we are the enemy without providing any back up. He has no clue about the difference in anarchism spectrum and decide to take one term, that is a brilliant way to argue.

[Incendiarism]

I would really like to hear his definition of anarchism as it is crucial to my response.

[The Feral Underclass]

You clearly have no idea what the hell you're talking about if you believe anarchists don't engage in the political process.

The issue as I see it is that many people tend to see the "political process" in a very narrow and prescriptive way. I mean, what even is the "political process"? If we're talking about bourgeois electoral politics then damn right anarchists don't engage with it. If you're talking about grassroots community and workplace activism then yeah, this is our bread an butter. No doubt we need to get better at it and grow in the process but anarchists engage in processes that are "political" all the time.

One of the great thinks about anarchism is its inventiveness. Anarchists constantly try and re-invent ways of protesting and engaging in struggles that aren't insipid and entrenched in boring but ultimately futile political processes. The game changes all the time and different things and different tactics are necessary at different times. Anarchists are very versatile in that respect. We should be proud of that.

[Incendiarism]

I don't know, I love anarchism and the movement itself, but there are far too many groups I view as reactionary in some respects.

I think we should be concerning ourselves with gaining the means of production and focusing on the labor movement, and I see a lot of groups such as the ALF and Earth First to be distracting and setting up the wrong idea. I don't wish to necessarily downplay what they do, but I feel they trivialize the matters which are most important. Surprisingly, the further along you go the more perspective they seem to lose: sometimes wholly rejecting the labor movement altogether!

Now, I have no problem if they co-opt those ideals into union organizing, such as what they amended in the IWW constitution, but to prioritize those which do not serve any relief to people is taking a wrong turn.

But you're right, it is an admirable trait, I suppose.

[The Feral Underclass]

I'm not an American anarchist and have nothing to do with it, which I'm thankful for. The anarchist movement in America has a lot to answer for, but it is unfair to tarnish the international anarchist movement with the same brush. While we in Europe obviously have to contend with the same kinds of people, ultimately we have a class based tradition that is active inside communities and the workplace.

[Incendiarism]

No, no, that was not my intention. Sorry for my american-centric ways.

[The Feral Underclass]

No, no, that was not my intention. Sorry for my american-centric ways.

I didn't mean to imply that you were being American-centric, just informing you that I am not American and the situation in Europe is different.