Log in

View Full Version : What we must do



Pogue
19th June 2008, 17:40
It seems a task more momentous than ever is before us comrades! All talk of theory aside, I'm going to engage everyone on practice. Ok. So the world is, almost without exception, under some form of capitalist/fascist control, either by dictatorships or governments. Throughout most of the world, there is little to no revolutionary feeling, class conciousness, etc.

In the UK, where I live, and many other countries, there is rising popularity with fascist parties like the BNP among people, usually 'working class' people, or, more simply, poor people. Governments plough ahead with neoliberal policies, and civil liberties are curbed, people are starved and tortured all across the world, and the smarmy, dirty, capitalist (and fascist) scum run free and riot across our world.

There is growing apathy. Most people are blinded by consumerism, so they don't care about politics. Some people are fighting to survive, so have no time for politics. Alot of people are listening to the dirty, perverted lies of the fascists. Many cannot see outside of the 2-3 capitalist parties which dominate their electoral system.

In the 20th century we saw alot of socialist (be it communist, trotykist, marx lenin, mao, etc) action, so to speak. Anarchism in Spain, Socialism in Russia, etc etc. Alot of class concoiusness, discontent, anger. For alot of people life has got better, contributing to less desperation or anger (which tends to lead to revolution/uprising from the proleteriat). For alot of people its still shit beyond belief for us, say in Africa and parts of East Asia.

So clearly something has to be done by us, the left wingers. Ok, so this is RevLeft. Revolution. Ok so lets leave the meaning of revolution open at this moment. Firstly, in the western 'liberal democracies' we have parliamentary decmoracy, or something similar, in that we elect a party to govern us. This is enshrined in law and accepted by people. This is the medium through which power is gained (obviously theres the power of police/corporations which we don't elect but an elected government can interfere with this). It's not perfect, this system, but for now we have to accept it, to fight capitalism and fascism. Because the revolution is not happening now and is not looking like coming soon.

This does not mean we should ignore revolution, be it vanguardist insurrection, or syndicalist maneouvering. Armed or union struggle might prove neccesary when the bourgeoisie/fascists attempt to crush democratic reform. But I'm calling for a united mass movement.

This means the things many of the left seem to hate! Co-operation!
What unites the Trotskyists (Uk, SWP), Maoists, Marx Leninists, Anarchists, etc? We don't like capitalism and we don't like fascism and we want some form of socialism. Oke doke. So why do we fight so much? This plays into the hands of the capitalists and fascists and helps them.

I propose a tactic, which may seem naive and silly, but in some form has to be employed. First, it is clear that us being divided is terrible. But people say, even if we manage to find some common ground (which is so clearly there, as i said, anti capitalist/anti fascism and wanting socialism), what about different tactics. I.e. reformists who think revolutionaries are too idealistic, violent and naive, and revolutionaries who think reformists are just capitalists in disguise, or not radical enough. Theres Anarchists who think Marx-Leninists are authoritarian, Marx-Leninists who think Anarchists are bourgeoisie, etc etc. Thats why we need a united movement, with free debate and discussion, to have (socialist) comprimise. As long as its socialism, not social democracy or just state capitalism, we must comprimise with out other socialist comrades. While we don't do this, that is to say while we are still divided, the fascists get power in elections, they gain seats/councils, and the capitalist's dominance grows, and as a direct result of this people neglect the left more and more, and so more and more people die or are crushed under the selfis tyranny of the filth.

We need a united movement of socialists of all kind, as I said, ranging from Marx Lenin to Syndicalists to Anarchists to Maoists, so we can directly and effectively fight the capitalists and fascists, measure our success and get more support and thus, change.

Please comrades, don't pick apart this and be cynical, and thus feed into the sort of secularism which has meant that we're now seen as the looney fringe, even though we speka the truth and we see things in the true light, unlike the nazi BNP and the scum who mirror them in all countries.
We need change and unity at this vital time. We have nothing to lose!
Leftists of the world unite!

zelda
19th June 2008, 17:56
To each his/her own is my motto. We should all keep an unbiased mind on all issues.

trivas7
19th June 2008, 18:08
We need a united movement of socialists of all kind, as I said, ranging from Marx Lenin to Syndicalists to Anarchists to Maoists, so we can directly and effectively fight the capitalists and fascists, measure our success and get more support and thus, change.

Flowery sentiment, comrade, but not exactly an actionable proposal. Perhaps there are even legitimate reasons for our differences.

Dros
19th June 2008, 18:32
I'd direct you to my thread in politics about why this is exactly what we need to not be doing right now.

Basically, you've completely ignored the incredible importance of theory. For this to work, we need to have a thorough and revolutionary outlook and theoretical basis. Organization, discourse, and practice must exist on the basis of this theory and sacrificing that for the benefit of "unity" is ultimately counter productive. Unity of the kind you're talking about is bad. We the left can unify on particular issue. I'd be happy to go out and struggle with the Trots and Anarchists over issues like the war. But we can't form a "unification party" because that will compromise the theoretical basis of our practice, it will kill the possibility of revolution, and if the revolution did occur on those terms it would take us nowhere except backwards to capitalism again.

Pogue
19th June 2008, 19:22
Ok, so what, we just continue to chat shit about tactics which are all concepts and probably wont be employed anyway, keep having petty arguments because everyone whose isnt our ideology is reactionary or reformist, and do what we've done for the last few years, that is to say, fuck all. Seems that the people who want to change the world join aid organisations (but of course, they are bourgeoisie) while those who want to play politics have mindless, constant squabbles about whats the right and wrong way to organise a revolution that will never happen, or if it does, wont be led by people who'd rather debate about the dialetics of this or the revisionism of that. No wonder the left is in such a pathetic state! Its enough to drive someone insane. Do you think the proles are going to be enlightened and led by such boring drivel as dialetics and debates on the nature of the USSR as a degenrated workers strate or true socialism or state capitalism or whatever the fuck it is.
Christ! Lets get serious about communism guys, and make it simple and relevant and effective.

Q
19th June 2008, 19:24
Trying to strive for a united left on a webforum is wasting precious time. If you want unity and solidarity, then just do it by being at demonstrations, protests, strikes, regardless of who organises it. Besides, I disagree with you that the working class is still so passive, on the contrary, class struggle is on the rise! Unity is not conceived by an abstract discussion on politics and programme, but by class action, on the streets.

dirtycommiebastard
20th June 2008, 05:36
I'd direct you to my thread in politics about why this is exactly what we need to not be doing right now.

Basically, you've completely ignored the incredible importance of theory. For this to work, we need to have a thorough and revolutionary outlook and theoretical basis. Organization, discourse, and practice must exist on the basis of this theory and sacrificing that for the benefit of "unity" is ultimately counter productive. Unity of the kind you're talking about is bad. We the left can unify on particular issue. I'd be happy to go out and struggle with the Trots and Anarchists over issues like the war. But we can't form a "unification party" because that will compromise the theoretical basis of our practice, it will kill the possibility of revolution, and if the revolution did occur on those terms it would take us nowhere except backwards to capitalism again.

I absolutely agree. This would be putting to waste decades ad decades of theory, practice, lessons, methods and traditions, whether they be correct or incorrect and creating a diluted, wishy-washy broad left coalition that would unite 10 groups into 50. It would literally tear itself to pieces unless the ENTIRE group was united on a principled basis. This is why something seemingly simple like uniting two Trotskyist groups have failed in the past, because of unprincipled mergers and conflicts over policies and tactics.

Die Neue Zeit
20th June 2008, 06:24
Yes, because the modern "circle spirit" (similar to what Lenin decried in the time of WITBD) that has failed to proper emulate the 1912 Bolshevik model has served the working class well, hasn't it? :rolleyes:

In regards to the OP, consider these:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/sozialdemokratische-partei-deutschlands-t79754/index.html
http://www.revleft.com/vb/united-social-labour-t75056/index.html

Dros
20th June 2008, 06:30
Ok, so what, we just continue to chat shit about tactics which are all concepts and probably wont be employed anyway,

That kind of attitude will never lead to a revolution. If this is going to happen, then damn straight we need to keep talking about what practice works!


keep having petty arguments because everyone whose isnt our ideology is reactionary or reformist,

Yes. The revolution can and will only occur on the basis of a truly revolutionary and scientific line.


and do what we've done for the last few years, that is to say, fuck all.

Ahhh... So impatient.

The revolution's not going to happen overnight. It's going to take a while and it's going to take the necessary objective conditions. These conditions don't exist and mass movements don't develop spontaneously.


Seems that the people who want to change the world join aid organisations (but of course, they are bourgeoisie)

:lol:@ "change"!


while those who want to play politics have mindless, constant squabbles about whats the right and wrong way to organise a revolution that will never happen,

It won't happen if we don't get it right. Hence, the importance of line struggle.


or if it does, wont be led by people who'd rather debate about the dialetics of this or the revisionism of that. No wonder the left is in such a pathetic state! Its enough to drive someone insane. Do you think the proles are going to be enlightened and led by such boring drivel as dialetics and debates on the nature of the USSR as a degenrated workers strate or true socialism or state capitalism or whatever the fuck it is.
Christ! Lets get serious about communism guys, and make it simple and relevant and effective.

So the rest of this rant seems to be about how bored you are with revolutionary theory. Theory must guide practice. We can't make a revolution, we can't even start thinking about how to begin, without revolutionary theory. And if we don't arrive at the best theory, the most scientific and revolutionary synthesis of theory, we will do nothing but arrive back at capitalism.

Also, I'm going to predict that you personally will fizzle out in about six months with this kind of attitude. You're going to get board with all of this hard work and revolutionary stuff when you realize the revolution's not going to happen this week or month or year or decade.

That is, unless you start grounding your practice in a revolutionary theory that will illuminate the contradictions that you're bumping up against.

Die Neue Zeit
20th June 2008, 06:41
Note to OP: I started out on a strictly anti-sectarian road myself, but then realized that greater problems were beneath it. It's not just sectarianism vs. revisionism, but now the bigger problem of reductionism:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/done-challenges-overcoming-t74557/index.html

Pogue
20th June 2008, 13:52
Theory, patience and planning would of course be neccesary if the communist 'movement' was substantial enough to be noticed by the average person, but your talking as if your planning and theory and complicated words are actually making a difference. The average joe hardly knows what communism is, let alone understands the relevance of compicated talk of lines and dialetics. I'm impatient not because I want things to speed up, but because I want them to get going. I'm bored, yes, of seeing 50 or so Socialist/Communist groups per demonstration all arguing why they're the best, while none of them are getting even 0.1% of the vote, or having a significant part in the UK political scene. Theres no increasing revolutionary feeling among the masses, because there is no communist movement to do this, just 50 or so fractured little groups who'd rather talk theory then implement change. Its why alot of radical communists joined the reformist/social democratic parties like Labour, because they wanted to change things, rather than have endless debates amongst themselves about pointless details.