People’s Country

[China studen]

People’s Country
</STRONG>In the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, where all policies of the Workers’ Party of Korea and the state are oriented to the people’s well-being, the popular masses are the master of the country and society, and are leading a happy life, exercising their right as the master.

The country whose master is the people was the ideal and wish of President Kim Il Sung.
The President set out on the road of revolution in his teens. Witnessing his compatriots in agonies under the colonial rule of the Japanese imperialists (1905-1945), he made a resolution to build a country whose master would be the people free from exploitation and oppression, and liberated the country by waging an armed struggle. Based on the experience acquired in the process of building the people’s revolutionary government in the guerilla bases during the anti-Japanese war, he established the people’s government in the liberated land and proclaimed such democratic policies as the Agrarian Reform Law, the Law on Nationalization of Major Industries and the Labour Law, thus fulfilling the peasants’ centuries-old desire for land and establishing the working people as the master of factories and the country.
He gave priority to the sake of the people in the building of the Party and the state, making the Party serve the people and the government be responsible for the livelihood of the people. After the establishment of the socialist system, he put forth all lines and policies representing the people’s will and desire, and made sure that even a building was constructed in such a way as to be most convenient for the people.
His idea of “The people are my God” is shining more brilliantly along with the word “people” included in the names of the country, the government organs, the army, and even hospitals and public buildings.
Under his leadership there was built genuine people-centred socialism where the people are the master of everything and everything serves them, and the Korean people came to lead an independent and creative life to their hearts’ content.
Anybody who is a citizen of the state is legally provided with the rights to elect and to be elected regardless of sex, nationality, job, residence, property, standard of education, party affiliation, political view and religious belief, and takes free part in the state management and socio-political activities with equal rights.
Many workers, farmers and intellectuals are elected deputies to power organs at all levels, from local power organs to the Supreme People’s Assembly, and participate in deciding state problems.
In the country where only the social ownership of the means of production exists, the popular masses are the master of the economic management.
When everything had been ruined in the war (1950-1953) provoked by the US imperialists, the Korean people rehabilitated the economy by their own efforts and realized the socialist industrialization in a short period of 14 years. They continued to build the self-reliant national economy relying on their own resources and technologies.
Today they are leading an equal material life as the virtual enjoyers of social wealth. Nobody is unemployed: All the people have stable jobs and are leading a worthwhile working life.
Taxation was completely abolished, children are learning free of charge under the universal 11-year compulsory education system, and the people receive free medical treatment.
The following happened to a woman living in Mangyongdae District.
The woman in pregnancy for six months was admitted to the resuscitation section of the Teaching Hospital of Pyongyang University of Medicine because of an obstinate disease. Comprehensive medical examinations and consultations were held 65 times involving over 50 doctors including Doctors and Professors of medicine, various kinds of experiments were conducted more than 280 times, artificial respiration was practiced for 105 days, 4.5 litre-blood transfusion was given and over 100 kinds of medicines including expensive ones were administered to her. She was miraculously resuscitated, and gave birth to a child two months premature. She, therefore, was taken to the Pyongyang Maternity Hospital. She recovered her health completely in 156 days and left the hospital with her baby daughter that had been cared in an incubator.
The DPRK, where everything serves the people, runs a system for taking care of the life and health of temporarily or completely disabled people, the old and children. Many popular policies, such as the paid leave system, recuperation and relaxation systems and the maternity leave system, are put in force at the state expense.
One can see nurseries, kindergartens and schools anywhere in the country, and cultural recreation grounds for the pleasant rest of the people on every scenic spot. The people-centred socialism of Korea founded by President Kim Il Sung is further improving under the leadership of Kim Jong Il, and the Korean people are more vigorously advancing the building of a great, prosperous and powerful nation while leading an independent and creative life.



http://www.kcckp.net/images/periodic/news_daily/2008/06/10/10-28-1-1.jpg
At a polling place.

[Pogue]

Multiple international human rights organizations, including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, accuse North Korea of having one of the worst human rights records of any nation. North Koreans have been referred to as "some of the world's most brutalized people", due to the severe restrictions placed on their political and economic freedoms. North Korean defectors have testified to the existence of prison and detention camps with an estimated 150,000 to 200,000 inmates (about 0.85% of the population), and have reported torture, starvation, rape, murder, medical experimentation, fforced labour, and forced abortions.
The system changed slightly at the end of 1990s, when population growth became very low. In many cases, where capital punishment was de facto, it was replaced by less severe punishments. Bribery became prevalent throughout the country. For example, just listening to South Korean radio could result in capital punishment. However, many North Koreans wear clothes of South Korean origin, listen to Southern music, watch South Korean videotapes and even receive Southern broadcasts, although they are still prohibited; in most cases punishment is nothing more than a pecuniary fine, and many such problems are normally solved "unofficially", through bribery.

From Wikipedia, search DPRK or North Korea. Theres a whole page on human rights abuses in North Korea. Juche is bollocks too, they're not self-reliant, they receive huge amounts of aid.

[China studen]

HLVS the bourgeoisie are rumors in an attempt to vilify North Korea.

[Pogue]

Isthat why North Korea are so willing to show people how wonderful their country really is? Amnesty International is not 'the bourgeoisie'.

[Dros]

Both people are right.

1.) The bourgeoisie does attempt to vilify North Korea to justify it's imperialist ambitions on the peninsula and its attempts to further it's interests in the reason. And also, human rights organizations are a favorite tool of the Bourgeoisie. Notice for instance that hr organizations always criticize soon-to-be-victims of imperialism such as Iraq, and now Iran and North Korea while saying nothing (or at least next to nothing) about the worst offenders: the USA, Israel, etc..

2.) North Korea sucks. It's not and never was socialist. It is a revisionist social-fascist state that is beyond defending.

[Kami]

while saying nothing (or at least next to nothing) about the worst offenders: the USA, Israel, etc..Are we both looking at the same organisation here? Amnesty constantly have stuff against the both of them.

Israel (http://amnesty.org.uk/actions.asp?Search=&ThemeID=&SubWorldRegionID=&CountryID=228&IdentityID=&Closed=0&submitted=-1&actiontypeID=)
USA (http://amnesty.org.uk/actions.asp?Search=&ThemeID=&SubWorldRegionID=&CountryID=102&IdentityID=&Closed=0&submitted=-1&actiontypeID=)

Just for comparison, Iraq has 2 current actions.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

The DPRK is a bureaucratized proletarian state. Despite its deformities (some of which are indeed very odd), and the bureaucratic caste that rules, it is built on collectivized property structures which were created in a mass revolution that overthrew capitalist property relations. The gains represented in collectivized property (which allow universal education and healthcare, among other things) must be defended. Don't forget that the DPRK surpassed the south for many years, and that ended only with the counterrevolution in its trade partners (The USSR and Eastern Bloc) and massive natural disasters (like famine and floods.. which in fact would have inflicted much greater damage without a planned economy in place).

The best way to bring genuine socialism to north Korea is to fight for revolution internationally, to break the country out of isolation, and remove the pillars (like constant imperialist encirclement and attacks) the bureaucracy uses to prop up its rule.

And, of course, even if it was a regular ol' imperialist-oppressed capitalist country that was under attack from U.S. imperialism, it would be the duty of communists in the U.S. to defend it from their own imperialists (that doesn't mean lining up with the government of that country, but it certainly doesn't mean lining up with the State Department).

[Wanted Man]

2.) North Korea sucks. It's not and never was socialist. It is a revisionist social-fascist state that is beyond defending.
Has the "new synthesis" become so vulgar and revisionist that everything is branded as "fascist" these days? I ask because you previously implied that China in its current state is also "fascist". If the DPRK was "never socialist", does that also go for 1948-1953? Or were the allies of the USSR (under Stalin, or is he going down the drain too?) also social-fascist?

Nothing Human is Alien is right, of course. Beyond defending, drosera? Whatever happened to attacking one's own bourgeoisie, including its imperialism in the third world? Or is third worldism being flushed down the toilet as well?

[RedHal]

Isthat why North Korea are so willing to show people how wonderful their country really is? Amnesty International is not 'the bourgeoisie'.

Not here to defend DPRK, but you have a lot to learn about Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and Wikipedia.

[China studen]

Isthat why North Korea are so willing to show people how wonderful their country really is? Amnesty International is not 'the bourgeoisie'.

1, North Korea has been to demonstrate the superiority of the socialist system.

2, Amnesty International is what organizations do ？It's where the money came from ？What is behind the funding agencies?

3, may I ask: "Amnesty International" on this organization, how to get North Korea is the true information? It is well known that North Korea's ability to prevent infiltration is very strong. In that case, "Amnesty International" the so-called "report" have forged the suspects?

[Sam_b]

1, North Korea has been to demonstrate the superiority of the socialist system.

Well its certainly been well wide of that mission. Its isolationism creates the impression that its got something to hide to the world community. Evidence would certainly suggest that it has: with accusations of GULAG-style programs around the country and reports of mass starvation in the countryside especially. You also have to look to the testimonies of people who have escaped, such as Lee Soon Ok et al who claim they were tortured in prison camps.

I'd also be intersted to know why you regard the DPRK as 'socialist' as well. Where is the redistribution of wealth? I see party officials in lavish houses and presidential palaces, but what about the Korean workers? Where is the local democracy: for example, within factories?


2, Amnesty International is what organizations do ？It's where the money came from ？What is behind the funding agencies?

Of course Amnesty International, a so-called 'apolitical organisation' are a poor source. However, this does not excuse the arguments tabled about the DPRK and its neglect of basic rights and liberties.

To be honest, i'm not convinced.

[China studen]

Both people are right.

1.) The bourgeoisie does attempt to vilify North Korea to justify it's imperialist ambitions on the peninsula and its attempts to further it's interests in the reason. And also, human rights organizations are a favorite tool of the Bourgeoisie. Notice for instance that hr organizations always criticize soon-to-be-victims of imperialism such as Iraq, and now Iran and North Korea while saying nothing (or at least next to nothing) about the worst offenders: the USA, Israel, etc..

2.) North Korea sucks. It's not and never was socialist. It is a revisionist social-fascist state that is beyond defending.

1, I agree with your first sentence.
2, DPRKorea is truly a socialist country. The Soviet Union, China, Vietnam is revisionism.

[Honggweilo]

Agree fully with NHIA and Wanted Man here.

@ Drosera99

You trully are you're own rare breed of self-proclaimed maoist aren't you? The majority of maoist organisations, even the most sectarian and ultra-leftist ones have support for North Korea. You calling it social-fascist is really humorous.. its like spilling liberal "amnesty" bias using anti-revisionist rethoric, while social-fascism was actually used to describe the objectives of organisations like amnesty, founded by the 2nd international


2, Amnesty International is what organizations do ？It's where the money came from ？What is behind the funding agencies?
Neo-liberal right wing social-democracy



3, may I ask: "Amnesty International" on this organization, how to get North Korea is the true information? It is well known that North Korea's ability to prevent infiltration is very strong. In that case, "Amnesty International" the so-called "report" have forged the suspects? This is true also. Due to its strict bureaucracy, its highly unlikely organisations like amnesty have the resources to infiltrate NK. Its much easier to forge material bases on "eye witness" accounts. Like the time Japanese television recorded poverty playing a melodramatic tune in the background, in a Chinese "Special Economic Zone" bordering North Korea and then blamed the whole thing on NK.

[RevolutionaryKluffinator]

Yeah, and their great "socialist" leader Kim Jong-Il spends 40% of the government budget on himself, he collects western movies, he loves fast cars and fast women, and owns around 30 homes.

How very very socialist of him...

There is a problem with any form of socialist or communist dictatorship because you can't honestly expect a party, once it has come to power, to limit its own power and then have the government wither away. Thus, it is up to the citizenry to keep the government in check. Unfortunately, dictatorships like Kim Jong-ils have ways of keeping the people down.

Don't support capitalism or false revolutionaries.

[Honggweilo]

Yeah, and their great "socialist" leader Kim Jong-Il spends 40% of the government budget on himself Seriously? Well i guess we will be seeing him in Forbes magazine anytime soon :rolleyes:

[BIG BROTHER]

lets face it, North Korea sucks and apparently they don't even call themselves socialists anymore. If anything of what the article was true North Korea wouldn't be hiding anything. I mean even Cuba with the imperialist beast 70 miles away lets people see how their country is.

[Wanted Man]

What are they hiding, josefrancisco? :confused:

[BIG BROTHER]

What are they hiding, josefrancisco? :confused:

Since visitors can't move in the country freely, I would say their whole society.

[Wanted Man]

I don't think there's a relation between the two. Of course they're not going to let citizens of countries that openly call them "terrorists" and have declared their intent to destroy them, walk around without any oversight. I don't see why they're obligated to do so, either.

Have you ever tried reading reports from people who've gone there? The thing about 'hiding' always comes from people who went there with the intention of 'enlightening the oppressed people' and were disappointed that they failed to do so. Some of them actually believe that the whole of Pyongyang is a cardboard city, and that all the people they see are just actors who get paid to fool a bunch of arrogant western tourists!

[Dros]

Has the "new synthesis" become so vulgar and revisionist that everything is branded as "fascist" these days?

Wait... wait... I can't hear you... Could you say that again? I can't hear you over the deafening roar of your own petty opportunism.

In my view, fascism is the direct control of the means of production by a state that is controlled by counter revolutionary classes in a society marked by nationalism, militarism, and a lack of democracy. All of which are very prominent in the DPKR. I've made it very clear that the DPKR isn't as bad as it is portrayed but it certainly isn't socialist and, from what I've seen, heard and read (and I could very well be wrong!) it looks like a social-fascist state.


You trully are you're own rare breed of self-proclaimed maoist aren't you?

Not really. There are quite a few of us real MAOISTS in the world if you got out enough to find us.

What was your old username? I want to know who I'm talking to.


The majority of maoist organisations, even the most sectarian and ultra-leftist ones have support for North Korea.

That's simply untrue. Maybe some of the "Mao Tse-tung Thought" ones do but the claim that a majority of Maoists support the DPKR is patently false.

Juche is a patently revisionist ideology akin in some ways to the revisionism in Guevarism, especially the Songun doctrine.


You calling it social-fascist is really humorous.. its like spilling liberal "amnesty" bias using anti-revisionist rethoric,

Except not at all. In the 1998 Constitution of the DPKR, the ideology of Marxism-Leninism was completely abandoned in favor of this Juche concept which is, in reality, a complete negation of Marxism-Leninism, completely bereft of materialism and fascistic in a variety of ways, mosit importantly including the fact that Juche explicitly sees the military as the primary revolutionary force in Korea! Not the Proletariat or even the Party!

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

North Korea should not merit our defense. The country is run by absolute nutters. They've created a state religion around Kim il Sung and Kim Jong il. Have yall read the propaganda releases? You know, the ones about the great leaders spring forth from the clouds like magical angels? This is not a socialist state its a bloody nut house.

[RevolutionaryKluffinator]

North Korea should not merit our defense. The country is run by absolute nutters. They've created a state religion around Kim il Sung and Kim Jong il. Have yall read the propaganda releases? You know, the ones about the great leaders spring forth from the clouds like magical angels? This is not a socialist state its a bloody nut house.
That is absolutely right.

[Wanted Man]

Wait... wait... I can't hear you... Could you say that again? I can't hear you over the deafening roar of your own petty opportunism.
Where's the opportunism? It's opportunist to attack all opponents as 'fascist'. According to neo-nazis, antifas who try to fight them are 'left fascists'. Some anarchists think Leninism is 'red fascism'. I'm not sure what they do now, but the RCP has attacked US conservatism as 'christian fascism' (is the Bush gov. still a christian fascist dictatorship?). And here you are saying the same thing about the DPRK. I think that's opportunist.


In my view, fascism is the direct control of the means of production by a state that is controlled by counter revolutionary classes in a society marked by nationalism, militarism, and a lack of democracy. All of which are very prominent in the DPKR. I've made it very clear that the DPKR isn't as bad as it is portrayed but it certainly isn't socialist and, from what I've seen, heard and read (and I could very well be wrong!) it looks like a social-fascist state.

That's a bourgeois liberal view of fascism, not a marxist one. The liberal definition is comfortable to opportunists, because it makes it so easy to stretch the goalposts. The means of production in the USA are controlled by a counter-revolutionary class. The USA society has seen increased nationalism, militarism, and the Republicans like to cheat in elections a bit. The USA must be fascist! Here is liberal 'proof' that the USA is fascist: http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

See what a weak and piss-poor attempt at analysis is provided by liberalism? If you read some Dimitrov (http://marxists.org/reference/archive/dimitrov/works/1935/08_02.htm) (just the first chapter, for all I care), you'd know that the DPRK can't possibly be fascist. Fascism is "the open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinistic and most imperialist elements of finance capital", according to Dimitrov. Considering that the DPRK has a collective planned economy* and is under attack from imperialism backed by finance capital, I don't think it's fascist at all.

*I'm not sure about the extent of workers' power in the factories and the like. To me, that's one of the greatest reservations to call it 'socialist'. But even in that aspect, I'd look further than the length of my own nose, i.e. the exaggerated media crap (don't believe the hype!). And then there's the precedence given to revisionist 'Juche' and the army. But taking all into consideration, maybe CdL's idea that it is a 'bureaucratic socialist' state is right.

And again, I ask: was the DPRK really "never socialist", even at a time when it was supported by both the USSR and China in Stalin's and Mao's days? And is it really 'beyond defending' from your own bourgeoisie? And does Maoism not promote the national liberation of the 'third world' countries from imperialism ('social' or otherwise)?

[Honggweilo]

Not really. There are quite a few of us real MAOISTS in the world if you got out enough to find us.
Ok all fair and square, from now on i will be on the look out for the "real MAOISTS" and start looking under cobblestones and in treehouses :lol:.


That's simply untrue. Maybe some of the "Mao Tse-tung Thought" ones do but the claim that a majority of Maoists support the DPKR is patently false.

Juche is a patently revisionist ideology akin in some ways to the revisionism in Guevarism, especially the Songun doctrine.
I never said they supported Juche or Songun, and i also never said they didnt see them as revisionist in some way. But they have a reasonable amount of support for the socialist economy and actively defend it against imperialism.

i.e the CPP, CPN (m), MLPD, ect, ect

tell me about the significant "real MAOISTS" (apperantly the ones supporting the theory that the DPRK is social-fascist and support the free-tibet movement) around the globe that do uphold this line to back up your claim.



What was your old username? I want to know who I'm talking to.It was ddxt301, Vermelho Batuta, and Handige Harry


Except not at all. In the 1998 Constitution of the DPKR, the ideology of Marxism-Leninism was completely abandoned in favor of this Juche concept which is, in reality, a complete negation of Marxism-Leninism, completely bereft of materialism and fascistic in a variety of ways, mosit importantly including the fact that Juche explicitly sees the military as the primary revolutionary force in Korea! Not the Proletariat or even the Party! True, although the fixation on militairy expansion and to let them take over certain tasks of civil servants was only added during the 90's and the embracing of Songun.

Then again, how does this make the DPKR social-fascist? does it promote class collaboration with the international bourgeoisie?

[Wanted Man]

North Korea should not merit our defense. The country is run by absolute nutters. They've created a state religion around Kim il Sung and Kim Jong il. Have yall read the propaganda releases? You know, the ones about the great leaders spring forth from the clouds like magical angels? This is not a socialist state its a bloody nut house.
Have you read 'the propaganda releases'? You probably don't have a clue of what you're talking about. Stuff from there gets crudely translated, possibly by sycophantic nutters like 'Korean Friendship Association' or some such. Then it comes to the press agency, which 99% of the media copy-paste or paraphrase from anyway. And finally it comes to your TV screen or newspaper. And if you're 'lucky' enough, you get the info from the complete bottom of the barrel, like Fox News and similar media.

Even with all that aside, discourse analysis is so weak, especially in this context. It's like showing the "Pray for president George Bush" threads on Free Republic to someone who is completely ignorant on the USA.

[lvl100]

Have you read 'the propaganda releases'? You probably don't have a clue of what you're talking about. .

So whos fault is that we cant really know for sure ?

All i see is 90% ->third parties, capitalist sources ( more or less biased)
9% -> suporters who didnt visited NK and dont have a clue either but they defend it anyway
1% -> oficial sites and blogs where they inform us how the Supream Leader created the Earth and even his farts are curing cancer or some twisted crap like that

If is so good there why the country`s situation its more secret than Area 51 ?


PS

BTW in socialist Romania, the last nail in Ceausescu`s coffin was when he tried to copy the regime of NK. Suddenly the situation become a lot worse than before.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Property relations aren't determined by "propaganda releases."

[Wanted Man]

9% "supporters" (I don't claim that it is "so good", I think the country has a lot of problems brought on by a whole bunch of factors that I can't be bothered to go into right now, but maybe others can) may not have a clue and defend it. But it's just the same with the other side: didn't visit it and don't have a clue, but attack it anyway. That's the harsh reality of things as they stand. I personally like publications that go in with an open mind, but they're few and far between.

Some links that I often refer to:

Travel report from two Russians (http://www.enlight.ru/camera/dprk/index_e.html)
Website with links to all sorts of DPRK-related media (http://dprk.1accesshost.com/)
List of travel reports with all sorts of biases either way (http://www.stat.ualberta.ca/people/schmu/nk.html)
Travel report with links to many more recent ones with all sorts of biases (http://www.blogjam.com/north-korea/)

The first one is by two Russian guys who went a few years ago. Since they've lived in an eastern bloc country themselves, they have a bit of a better context than some arrogant American who wants to 'educate' and 'liberate' his 'brainwashed' guides...

As for 'whose fault it is... well, I can't imagine any country that deliberately lives in poverty and isolation. It is a fact that the DPRK deals with economic sanctions, and that recent diplomatic troubles were the direct effect of the Bush government. Bush declared the country to be part of the "axis of evil". It's not fun to be part of the axis, as the Iraqis will have noticed. If the USA had not declared the DPRK to be a potential target for invasion, the issue of atomic weapons would not even have been up for discussion at this point. Thousands of American soldiers maintain a presence in the ROK, which is also nice.

As for what they can do... Well, if I were in charge, it also wouldn't be my priority to ensure that some western "leftists" get a better impression from things they read on the internet. It's simply not what they should be bothering themselves with. As for the media, it's even more pointless. No matter what you do, some arrogant westerner will just write that "The whole city is fake, and all the people walking around are actors to fool me, the important American journalist, defender of freedom & human rights".

[Wanted Man]

Property relations aren't determined by "propaganda releases."
This. Nobody has made a real argument. Just knee jerk reactions at bad PR. If they even really read "propaganda releases", more likely they heard it from some snooty evening news anchorman: "The propagandists of the so-called people's republic have published a propaganda release in which they bluster and rail against the policy of the State Department. President Bush says that they cannot hold back the will of the people, and that democracy will come eventually."

[Dros]

Where's the opportunism?

If you would like to have a conversation about the New Synthesis, start a thread and write a criticism. The thing is, you don't even know what it is? So instead, you just make sarcastic remarks that is opportunism.


It's opportunist to attack all opponents as 'fascist'. According to neo-nazis, antifas who try to fight them are 'left fascists'. Some anarchists think Leninism is 'red fascism'...And here you are saying the same thing about the DPRK. I think that's opportunist.

Which I don't do. I have demonstrated what my definintion of fascism is and why I think the DPRK is fascist or fascistic. That's not opportunism, that's science. Now, if you'd like to question my definition of fascism or my brief analysis of the DPRK then please do so.

Otherwise, shut the fuck up.


I'm not sure what they do now, but the RCP has attacked US conservatism as 'christian fascism' (is the Bush gov. still a christian fascist dictatorship?).

There is a prominent movement of explicit and implicit fascists in the United States. Neo-conservatism mixed with evangelical Christianity leads to a fascist theocracy which most progressive (not Communists, progressives) recognize as having a very fascist agenda.


That's a bourgeois liberal view of fascism, not a marxist one. The liberal definition is comfortable to opportunists, because it makes it so easy to stretch the goalposts.

That is a Marxist analysis. That is what the word means.


The means of production in the USA are controlled by a counter-revolutionary class. The USA society has seen increased nationalism, militarism, and the Republicans like to cheat in elections a bit. The USA must be fascist! Here is liberal 'proof' that the USA is fascist: http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

Bravo! Congratulations on refuting a claim that neither I nor anyone affiliated with me have ever made.


See what a weak and piss-poor attempt at analysis is provided by liberalism? If you read some Dimitrov (http://marxists.org/reference/archive/dimitrov/works/1935/08_02.htm) (just the first chapter, for all I care), you'd know that the DPRK can't possibly be fascist. Fascism is "the open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinistic and most imperialist elements of finance capital", according to Dimitrov.

1.)Since when does Dimitrov represent all of Marxism?

2.) Even so, I would say that the DPKR meets that definition with the exception of the imperialist part, for obvious reasons.


Considering that the DPRK has a collective planned economy* and is under attack from imperialism backed by finance capital, I don't think it's fascist at all.

:lol:

Planned by who?

Not the proletariat.


I'd look further than the length of my own nose, i.e. the exaggerated media crap (don't believe the hype!).

Haven't I been saying this the whole time?!


And then there's the precedence given to revisionist 'Juche' and the army.

Oh right. That insignificant bit of trivia.


And again, I ask: was the DPRK really "never socialist", even at a time when it was supported by both the USSR and China in Stalin's and Mao's days?

No. Both Mao and Stalin made grievous errors in the international sector.


And is it really 'beyond defending' from your own bourgeoisie? And does Maoism not promote the national liberation of the 'third world' countries from imperialism ('social' or otherwise)?

Your tankie-ism has once again led you to forget the difference between not upholding or supporting revisionists as Communists and revisionist states as socialist and not supporting the right of the people of Korea to self determination. Obviously, I would resist any attempt made by the US to invade Korea or to intervene in any way. Fortunately for Kimy, the US seems to be eyeing Iran at the moment.


Ok all fair and square, from now on i will be on the look out for the "real MAOISTS" and start looking under cobblestones and in treehouses.

I have no idea where you live because no real Maoists support the DPKR. Certainly not today.


I never said they supported Juche or Songun, and i also never said they didnt see them as revisionist in some way. But they have a reasonable amount of support for the socialist economy and actively defend it against imperialism.

There economy is not socialist! Society is controlled by the military!


It was ddxt301, Vermelho Batuta, and Handige Harry

Okay. So you're another tankie. What a shock!:rolleyes:


Then again, how does this make the DPKR social-fascist? does it promote class collaboration with the international bourgeoisie?

The fact that the DPKR is isolationist means little. The sogun principle, especially when its applied means the de facto destruction of whatever proletarian power existed under Kim Il-Sung. That is not socialist. It's state capitalism under the control of a military bourgeoisie. That is, at best fascistic.

[Wanted Man]

If you would like to have a conversation about the New Synthesis, start a thread and write a criticism. The thing is, you don't even know what it is? So instead, you just make sarcastic remarks that is opportunism.
Well, whatever it is, it must be getting to RCP'ers brains if they think the DPRK is fascist. But if it's only your opinion, then it's also only your problem.




Which I don't do. I have demonstrated what my definintion of fascism is and why I think the DPRK is fascist or fascistic. That's not opportunism, that's science. Now, if you'd like to question my definition of fascism or my brief analysis of the DPRK then please do so.

Otherwise, shut the fuck up.
I am questioning your definition of fascism and your 'analysis'. Read the whole post, and then reply. And let's not pretend that 'science' has anything to do with it.



progressives[/I]) recognize as having a very fascist agenda.
Indeed, not communists, but progressives. Fascist theocracy! :laugh: But what is the US now?



That is a Marxist analysis. That is what the word means.
What's marxist about it? I've never heard of a single marxist who thinks that fascism is simply bourgeois class dictatorship with nationalism, militarism (both common aspects of any bourgeois class dictatorship, doesn't make them fascist) and no democracy.



Bravo! Congratulations on refuting a claim that neither I nor anyone affiliated with me have ever made.
Context, my revisionist friend. I was showing you how liberal 'analysis' can easily be used to make opportunistic attacks on just about everything. Your definition of fascism is not as specific as the '14 points', but they're similar. They both describe a particularly nasty dictatorship, and can be used to call anything fascist: fascist Italy, Nazi Germany, the USSR under Stalin, the revisionist USSR, Cuba, the DPRK, the USA, maoist China, dengist China, etc.



1.)Since when does Dimitrov represent all of Marxism?
I'm not saying he does. But I think he's a better authority on fascism than you. He lived in its heyday, formulated what it is and how to fight it. Who do you suggest? Trotsky? Or is there some elusive marxist who shares your liberal definition?


2.) Even so, I would say that the DPKR meets that definition with the exception of the imperialist part, for obvious reasons.
Oh, just the imperialist part? Well, let's just pretend that that part is not important... :rolleyes:



:lol:

Planned by who?

Not the proletariat.
Stop trying to change the subject. I said it's not fascist. Not that it's necessarily socialist.

Although, quite honestly, the mode of production doesn't seem very different compared to Stalin's USSR. I guess Stalin was a fascist too...



Haven't I been saying this the whole time?!
Maybe, but you're not practicing it.



Oh right. That insignificant bit of trivia.
I just said that that's a major reservation for me to call it socialist. What did I tell you about acting like a brat?

Even so, the prominence of the military does not equal fascism. Have you ever looked into the need to change the society after the fall of the Soviet bloc? The "Arduous March" (similar to Cuba's Special Period, but the economic and political havoc wreaked on the DPRK was greater)? The organisational role that the military plays in civil projects? DPRK under songun is not the same as, say, Myanmar's military junta. What do you guys say about "no investigation" again?



No. Both Mao and Stalin made grievous errors in the international sector.
What, like helping to defend the 'fascist' (:rolleyes: ) DPRK from US imperialism? I think that was a pretty good move, given the options available. It would have been even better if the Soviets were not boycotting the UN Security Council at the time, then they could have simply vetoed the UN intervention. Or maybe they should have captured Pusan. Then we wouldn't even be having this conversation, and Korea would not be in this current divided state.



Your tankie-ism has once again led you to forget the difference between not upholding or supporting revisionists as Communists and revisionist states as socialist and not supporting the right of the people of Korea to self determination. Obviously, I would resist any attempt made by the US to invade Korea or to intervene in any way. Fortunately for Kimy, the US seems to be eyeing Iran at the moment.
I'm just quoting your own words back at you. You said that the DPRK is fascist and beyond defending. If the latter part was not true, you could have said so.



I have no idea where you live because no real Maoists support the DPKR. Certainly not today.
I'm not sure about that. The RCP probably doesn't. But what about other groups in the RIM? What about the ICMLPO maoists?

Oh, wait, here's a good one: http://www.philippinerevolution.net/cgi-bin/statements/statements.pl?author=cc;date=060216;language=eng

But I guess Joma Sison is not a "real maoist" now... A party that actually fights the People's War in the third world must be nothing compared to the well-investigated claims of an American RCP member.



There economy is not socialist! Society is controlled by the military!

(...)

The fact that the DPKR is isolationist means little. The sogun principle, especially when its applied means the de facto destruction of whatever proletarian power existed under Kim Il-Sung. That is not socialist. It's state capitalism under the control of a military bourgeoisie. That is, at best fascistic.
Oh, so this is the mistake you've been making. Stop the shrill histrionics and do some research, because you're completely wrong.

[Gterl23]

Amnesty International is a bourgeois organization, no doubt at all.

[BobKKKindle$]

North Korea is not a fascist country. Fascism is a political system which emerges when the bourgeois class is faced with the danger of social revolution, and so resorts to political suppression to dismantle workers organizations, and undermines class consciousness through the aggressive promotion of nationalist ideas - it is not simply a label which can be used to discredit any political movement or government an observer does not support. The ruling group in North Korea is not a class (merely a stratum) because the members of this group do not own the means of production, and so are not able to control the products of workers labour, gain income from the sale of commodities, or transmit property to the younger generation as inheritance.

North Korea suffers from bureaucratic deformation, but the restoration of capitalist property relations would signify a defeat for the Korean working class, as the current economic system based on socialized property has allowed for many progressive advances such as the universal provision of healthcare, the growth of a manufacturing sector, and full employment. Socialists should offer unconditional support to North Korea and yet also call for political revolution, which, as distinct from social revolution, will preserve existing property relations but introduce workers democracy.


Which I don't do. I have demonstrated what my definintion of fascism is and why I think the DPRK is fascist or fascistic.The definition you provided emphasizes the role of "counter revolutionary classes" and so even if your definition is accepted as a legitimate definition of fascism, North Korea should still not be regarded as "fascist" due to the absence of a ruling class. Arguably, however, this definition should not be accepted as legitimate, as it contains components which are not universal characteristics of fascism, and also components which are applicable to other political systems.


Yeah, and their great "socialist" leader Kim Jong-Il spends 40% of the government budget on himself, he collects western movies, he loves fast cars and fast women, and owns around 30 homes.

You have not provided a source for these allegations, and so why should they be accepted as facts? How would any organization possibly know the precise number of homes owned by Kim Jong-Il? How did you arrive at the figure of forty percent, and how would the economy be able to survive if forty percent of national wealth is devoted to the personal consumption of a single individual?

[Dros]

Well, whatever it is, it must be getting to RCP'ers brains if they think the DPRK is fascist. But if it's only your opinion, then it's also only your problem.

I hope you enjoy pretending to be witty. I also hope you realize that it doesn't compensate for your krypto-Trot, tankie, anti-materialism or you inability to carry on a cogent argument.


Indeed, not communists, but progressives. Fascist theocracy! :laugh: But what is the US now?

Bourgeois-democratic capitalist. What the fuck do you think it is?


Context, my revisionist friend.

:lol: A tankie calling me a revisionist. Now I've really seen everything.


I was showing you how liberal 'analysis' can easily be used to make opportunistic attacks on just about everything.

I know that. That's why I avoid liberalism.:)


Your definition of fascism is not as specific as the '14 points', but they're similar. They both describe a particularly nasty dictatorship, and can be used to call anything fascist: fascist Italy, Nazi Germany, the USSR under Stalin, the revisionist USSR, Cuba, the DPRK, the USA, maoist China, dengist China, etc.

Not really. It would be an impossible stretch to claim that the USSR under Stalin, Cuba, the USA, and Maoist China meet my definition of fascism.


I'm not saying he does. But I think he's a better authority on fascism than you.

Oh the privileged knowledge argument again?! When are alleged materialists going to outgrow this old crutch?


Or is there some elusive marxist who shares your liberal definition?

How is my definition liberal? Or is this just your juvenile opportunism again?


Oh, just the imperialist part? Well, let's just pretend that that part is not important... :rolleyes:

There's no reason why fascists must be imperialists.


Stop trying to change the subject. I said it's not fascist. Not that it's necessarily socialist.

I'm not changing the subject. That issue is critical to both subjects.


Although, quite honestly, the mode of production doesn't seem very different compared to Stalin's USSR. I guess Stalin was a fascist too...

Read something.


Maybe, but you're not practicing it.

Look through my posts. I think you'll find that I haven't said anything like what an amnesty-ite would. I haven't started whining about them staging cities or having guards guard the guards who guard the boarder etc... I haven't used any of that bourgeois shit in my argument.


Even so, the prominence of the military does not equal fascism. Have you ever looked into the need to change the society after the fall of the Soviet bloc? The "Arduous March" (similar to Cuba's Special Period, but the economic and political havoc wreaked on the DPRK was greater)? The organisational role that the military plays in civil projects? DPRK under songun is not the same as, say, Myanmar's military junta. What do you guys say about "no investigation" again?

I'm aware of that. Go back and reread the thread. Nowhere have I said that North Korea was similar to Myanmar. Go back and do your own investigation.


What, like helping to defend the 'fascist' (:rolleyes: ) DPRK from US imperialism? I think that was a pretty good move, given the options available.

Go read a history book. Mao fucking sided with the United States and started supporting some really bad people who were also siding with the US. Seriously...

Stop being such a juvenile and read a book.


I'm just quoting your own words back at you. You said that the DPRK is fascist and beyond defending. If the latter part was not true, you could have said so.

You are still very very confused. There are two issues here. "Are we going to uphold or support the DPKR as a socialist state or not?" and "Do we uphold the rights of all oppressed nations to self determination?" I would actively defend the Islamic Republic from American imperialist intervention. That has fuck all to do with me supporting it or upholding it as some kind of socialist state! This is really not complicated.


What about the ICMLPO maoists?

I've already made a distinction in this thread between people who uphold MAOISM and people who uphold MAO ZEDONG THOUGHT. There's a difference now.


But I guess Joma Sison is not a "real maoist" now... A party that actually fights the People's War in the third world must be nothing compared to the well-investigated claims of an American RCP member.

Wow. I'd like to start a contest for who can find the largest number of philosophical, epistemological, and methodological errors in the last sentence.

This kind of pragmatic outlook is a totally unscientific, anti-materialist, anti-Marxist way of approaching the question of line. I think you know that. The notion that a group's line is justified by the fact that they're engaged in a People's War is absurd at best. I support the Communists in the Philippines. Although, I'm very critical about substantial parts of their line.


Oh, so this is the mistake you've been making. Stop the shrill histrionics and do some research, because you're completely wrong.

I think you forgot the part where you actually make an argument. Again, the attempt at wit is amusing for the rest of us who are watching you attempt to be funny, and in a certain way I guess your sad attempts at humor are mildly entertaining because you fail every time you try but you really ought to try and make an argument every once in a while instead of just being obnoxiously stupid.

To Bob Kindles:


North Korea is not a fascist country. Fascism is a political system which emerges when the bourgeois class is faced with the danger of social revolution, and so resorts to political suppression to dismantle workers organizations, and undermines class consciousness through the aggressive promotion of nationalist ideas

I very much disagree. Fascism is a superstructural system. A system is characterized by its traits, not what caused its development. You are in a certain way to narrowly focused on the Leftist movement. Fascism is a system that can emerge for a variety of reasons and express itself in a variety of ways and it is not defined by what caused it but by what it itself is.


it is not simply a label which can be used to discredit any political movement or government an observer does not support.

I agree.


The ruling group in North Korea is not a class (merely a stratum) because the members of this group do not own the means of production, and so are not able to control the products of workers labour, gain income from the sale of commodities, or transmit property to the younger generation as inheritance.

If that were true then I would agree with you. However, I don't think that it is true. Again, North Korea is a state-capitalist system. The state is the owner of the means of production and is controlled by a ruling class that owns and controls the means of production through the state.


Arguably, however, this definition should not be accepted as legitimate, as it contains components which are not universal characteristics of fascism, and also components which are applicable to other political systems.

This gets to another issue, the issue of linguistics. Fascism is just a label that we apply to certain concrete conditions. As such, it might be that we consider different concrete sets of conditions to be fascist. The most effective way to apply the term is to proceed from a material understanding of what these conditions are as opposed to proceeding from how this term used to be applied and to what and then "reverse engineering" backwards to an understanding of the material conditions, which is what it seems you are doing. For instance, with the question of imperialism that Dumbass brought up before, the fact that Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy were imperialist does not necessarily mean that all fascism is imperialist. By that logic we could say that because the languages of those states were European languages that a defining characteristic of fascism is the predominance of European languages. Or 1940's cars. Or silly military uniforms on political leaders. Those are obviously not defining features of a fascist society.

So instead, I propose that we first come to an understanding of what we individually understand the label to reference and then I suspect that we will find ourselves in agreement about most everything except terminology.

[bcbm]

he collects western movies, he loves fast cars and fast women, and owns around 30 homes.

How very very socialist of him...

If he could figure out a way to bring that to the whole country, I would move there.:thumbup1:

As for the issue of supporting the DPRK... I would say it shouldn't be invaded and sanctions should be lifted, but that's about where my support ends.

[Dros]

If he could figure out a way to bring that to the whole country, I would move there.:thumbup1:

As for the issue of supporting the DPRK... I would say it shouldn't be invaded and sanctions should be lifted, but that's about where my support ends.

This.

[BobKKKindle$]

The state is the owner of the means of production and is controlled by a ruling class that owns and controls the means of production through the state.

The bureacracy does not have an independent role in the general structure of the economy and also lacks independent property roots, and so the bureacracy does not exhibit the social characteristics of a class, but merely a ruling stratum, which exercises a parasitic influence on the nationalized productive apparatus of North Korea. The laws of economic motion which exist in North Korea are not the same as those which can be observed in a capitalist society; managers of enterprises base decisions on the production quotas which are set by the central government (not the drive to maximize profits, which is the main economic dynamic under capitalism) and revenue generated from the sale of products is controlled by the state.

If North Korea is a state-capitalist country, then there is no reason to oppose the introduction of market capitalism by internal forces, as this would be seen as a change to a different form of capitalism, not a counter-revolution. However, the restoration of capitalism would pose a threat to the economic welfare of the proletariat, as it would allow for the elimination of institutions which have been made possible through social property relations, such as universal healthcare, as occurred in the Russian Federation following the collapse of the Soviet Union. The collapse of North Korea's current government would also encourage the penetration of American imperialism in the Asia-Pacific region.


As such, it might be that we consider different concrete sets of conditions to be fascist.

The definition provided includes direct state control of production as a feature of fascism. However, the Italian government adopted a non-interventionist economic policy before the outbreak of WW2 (although the state intervened to support firms facing the danger of bankruptcy) such that, under this definition, Italy would not be defined as a fascist government, even though Italy is acknowledged as the first country in which a fascist government was able to take power. This means that direct state control of production must be rejected as a necessary feature of fascism.

[Dr Mindbender]

People’s Country

</STRONG>In the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, where all policies of the Workers’ Party of Korea and the state are oriented to the people’s well-being, the popular masses are the master of the country and society, and are leading a happy life, exercising their right as the master.



At a polling place.



I take you didnt post that message from North Korea, did you?

:rolleyes:

[Pogue]

Might I note to comrades that Amnesty International has done great work worldwide, and to those who adored the USSR, one of its leaders was awarded the Lenin Peace Prize, and that Amnesty works uncovering abuses in many different countries tending to focus on undemocratic ones like China and North Korea, as well as more 'democratic' ones as Israel.
It was set up by socialist/communist minded people seeking to aid those opposed to Franco (Republican fighters who were in poverty/seeking refuge after the Civil War) and to Portugese students opposed to the fascist regime in Portugal.

[Pogue]

But anyway North Korea sounds like a haven for the working man. Lets all move there and reap the benefits of this wonderful country.
Oh, wait, no. We're not allowed in.

[Dros]

The bureacracy does not have an independent role in the general structure of the economy and also lacks independent property roots, and so the bureacracy does not exhibit the social characteristics of a class, but merely a ruling stratum, which exercises a parasitic influence on the nationalized productive apparatus of North Korea.

Class is defined only by ownership of and more importantly control over the means of production. As such, the ruling group (not the bureaucracy) does constitute a class in North Korea.


The laws of economic motion which exist in North Korea are not the same as those which can be observed in a capitalist society; managers of enterprises base decisions on the production quotas which are set by the central government (not the drive to maximize profits, which is the main economic dynamic under capitalism) and revenue generated from the sale of products is controlled by the state.

Again, you are moving from label to object. Capitalism is not defined by what it is "like" in a capitalist country but by specific objective factors which are present in North Korea.

Just out of curiosity, if NK is not capitalist, in your opinion, what is the mode of production?

And "deformed worker's state" is not a mode of production.


If North Korea is a state-capitalist country, then there is no reason to oppose the introduction of market capitalism by internal forces, as this would be seen as a change to a different form of capitalism, not a counter-revolution.

That might be true. Why is it that there is no possible reason to oppose transitions between different kinds of capitalism?


However, the restoration of capitalism would pose a threat to the economic welfare of the proletariat, as it would allow for the elimination of institutions which have been made possible through social property relations, such as universal healthcare, as occurred in the Russian Federation following the collapse of the Soviet Union.

It seems as if you just disproved your own hypothesis. State capitalism is associated with more services then is bourgeois-democratic capitalism.


The collapse of North Korea's current government would also encourage the penetration of American imperialism in the Asia-Pacific region.

Only if that collapse was initiated by American imperialists or their agents.


The definition provided includes direct state control of production as a feature of fascism. However, the Italian government adopted a non-interventionist economic policy before the outbreak of WW2 (although the state intervened to support firms facing the danger of bankruptcy) such that, under this definition, Italy would not be defined as a fascist government, even though Italy is acknowledged as the first country in which a fascist government was able to take power.

Fascism as a label indicates a wide variety of phenomena that are often present but not always. Scholars have found the issue of defining the term "fascism" very complex. I don't think it can be approached in a simplistic kind of way where there are three or four black and white conditions that, when met, constitute fascism. The fact that fascist states can change policies and employ different methods as conditions change does not somehow change the nature of fascism as an ideology or government system.

Even so, Italy during the period you're talking about did employ state control (more so then a bourgeois-democratic society) with regards to the forces of production.


This means that direct state control of production must be rejected as a necessary feature of fascism.

I think a thorough analysis will show that there are in fact remarkably few "necessary" features. In fact, there is perhaps a good argument to be made that fascism is in fact the convergence of a significant number of unnecessary features.

[Honggweilo]

Might I note to comrades that Amnesty International has done great work worldwide, and to those who adored the USSR, one of its leaders was awarded the Lenin Peace Prize, and that Amnesty works uncovering abuses in many different countries tending to focus on undemocratic ones like China and North Korea, as well as more 'democratic' ones as Israel.
It was set up by socialist/communist minded people seeking to aid those opposed to Franco (Republican fighters who were in poverty/seeking refuge after the Civil War) and to Portugese students opposed to the fascist regime in Portugal.

Well that doesnt change the fact that they are mostly a mouth-piece for mainstream liberal criticism, and often a catalyst for "humanitarian" intervention by western superpowers. Ofcourse amnesty, closely linked to the 2nd international, made some valueable contributions against fascist dictatorships in the past and provided good work. But Amnesty evolved with the degeneration of mainstream social democracy into the rightwinged neo-liberal "new labour" tendency dominant within the '"socialist" international. I think its useless to compare past positions to contemporary ones.