grow up [Archive]

fettered

28th October 2002, 05:37

You people amaze me. you people actually hate yourselves, (or your parents), so much that you would all actually be oppressed in a communist regime then have liberty in a free one. You people are so ignorant its pathetic, but I guess as most of you seem for some reason to be either in middle school or high school that doesn't come as much of a suprise. Here's a question for you, do you even know what a gulag is? You talk tough but in actuality you have no idea what your asking for. Do you think you'll enjoy waiting in line for 4 hours a day for rotten meat like they did in the USSR?
No doubt you think you'll be one of the people in charge of the government instead.

Whats so funny is that your anti-american speech only prove your opponents position, that being that america is the most free and has done more for human rights and freedom then any other country currently in existence. FOR HEAVENS SAKE THAT FACT THAT YOU are on THE INTERNET TO VOICE YOUR VIEWS FREELY IS A TRIBUTE TO THE FREE MARKET AND FREE SPEECH!

By the way, your ideas about socialism all rest on the idea that the pie of an economy is fixed. in a socialist economy everyone would get a pie slice of 5. But the great thing about free market economies is this little thing called ECONOMIC GROWTH. THAT is what makes America so great. Here, the lowest slice a person gets is about 8 and can go up to 100. You also forget to mention that there is GREAT MOBILITY in our economic system. If you poor one day your not condemned to be poor forever because you HAVE THE FREEDOM to go to a university to get a higher paying job.

Listen to yourselves, if it wasn't for individual's selfishness to make himself a buck tom edison would have never invented the light bulb. Check out those great countries in the middle east. They sure are free over there aren't they? Look at how much they've contributed to the world.

Which one of the bill of rights do you guys really object to anyway? Which one of your rights do you want taken away? Your either idiots or masochists.

Actually, Im incline to believe that most of you simply are rebelling against your parents because they didn't buy you that new computer game last week.

Disgusting.

LeninCCCP

28th October 2002, 05:52

What the fuck are you talking about? this is a place for people to express there ideas not for fuckers like you who dont understand socialism to ***** and moan about how bad the CCCP was (USSR if your a stupid fucker) they were a complete failure so kiss my red communist ass you capitalist loving fucker your the one with no life coming onto a communist chat room to make your stupid opposite ideas heard

LeninCCCP

28th October 2002, 05:58

by the way the middle east is not socialist or communist at all so why the fuck do you bring up that? if anything their like Nazi Germany. And you DONT HAVE THE FREEDOM to go to a university, you have to have money and be accepted. Your what we call ignent...Cause you dont know what the fuck your talking about so go get some vasoline on your toothless sisters mouth and tell her to start sucking.

American Kid

28th October 2002, 06:11

Lenin (and believe it or not, someone named "Lenin" is actually capable of being wrong *gasp!!!!* ) this, in fact, ABSOLUTELY is a place for "people who don't understand socialism to ***** and moan", as, last I checked, this forum is: "socialism vs. capitalism". I mean, seriously. Think about it.

At least make an effort (which you sort of did in your second post) to engage this dude in some sort of "debate."

You raging at him for being here in the first place is absurd. The forum's existence itself is eggin people on for a fight.

You got to understand dude, people, lots of them, HATE your views, and the views of your fellow communists. HATE THEM. And any oppertunity they see to let you know (especially an internet BB) they're going to take.

Hell, it's the reason, wayyyyy back when, I came here in the first place. So talking shit and saying he has no life but to come and spew hot air is rediculous.

Just try to tell anyone here The Kid doesn't have a life. That argument just doesn't cut it, brah.
-AK

(Edited by American Kid at 6:13 am on Oct. 28, 2002)

fettered

28th October 2002, 06:19

so what were you disagreeing with again? All i heard was a bunch of name calling.

I mentioned muslim countries as an example of how great dictatorships were and how well they promote prosperity and new ideas. Please name me a communist country thats not a dictatorship.

and yes, you are FREE to go to college because nobody STOPS you from going EXCEPT YOURSELF. for your information, it doesnt take much money to get in a junior college and get a degree. or you can take out a college loan if you prefer. its not very difficult to do for someone with 2 brain cells to rub together...

for all America's done for you, your awfully ungrateful. Maybe you like waiting in line for month old bread but most people dont.

IHP

28th October 2002, 06:25

"You people amaze me"

That's good.

"you people actually hate yourselves, (or your parents)"

You make a mistake. What evidence do you have to support this? You are saying that because we believe in a society of equality, we hate ourselves. This doesn't make any sense. And why would we hate our parents? Once again there is no evidence to back up this claim.

"You people are so ignorant its pathetic, but I guess as most of you seem for some reason to be either in middle school or high school that doesn't come as much of a suprise."

We are the ones who are ignorant? I think that you should read up on some US foreign policy and see he is the ill informed one. What's the point of saying that we are in high school? this is totally irrelevent to debate. In your 'society of free speech,' isn't a 15 y/o opinion as important as a fifty y/o? This is no basis for argument.

"Here's a question for you, do you even know what a gulag is? You talk tough but in actuality you have no idea what your asking for. Do you think you'll enjoy waiting in line for 4 hours a day for rotten meat like they did in the USSR? No doubt you think you'll be one of the people in charge of the government instead."

What is this? All of these arguments are based on a presumption of so many factors that it becomes rediculous. How many countries have had gulags? Waiting in a line for 4 hours? this is joke. Do you honestly believe that the way it is? My friend, it appears that you are the who is 'ignorant' as you put it.

"Whats so funny is that your anti-american speech only prove your opponents position, that being that america is the most free and has done more for human rights and freedom then any other country currently in existence. FOR HEAVENS SAKE THAT FACT THAT YOU are on THE INTERNET TO VOICE YOURVIEWS FREELY IS A TRIBUTE TO THE FREE MARKET AND FREE SPEECH!"

Many of the people within in this forum do not live in America, what's your point? More freedom than any other country? We'll pretend that this is true for a second.
(although your jail rates are one of the highest in the world: 700/100 000) you are of course aware that its because of foreign policy that this is the case. Does the word embargo mean anything? Let me guess "those countries harbour terrorists and threaten our freedom. god bless america" And you obviously don't know the diffreence between a "free market/trade" and a "fair market/trade" so i'm not going to bother.

"THAT is what makes America so great. Here, the lowest slice a person gets is about 8 and can go up to 100." whatever, this is sooo far from the truth that it is not funny. minimum of 8? thats absolutely laughable. 37M americans struggle on a day to day basis try:
www epinet.org and YOU read up about the welare system in America.

"Check out those great countries in the middle east. They sure are free over there aren't they? Look at how much they've contributed to the world."

What about those? where did we say that they were the epitome of existence and argue that they were? we didn't, so what are you talking about? ONce again US foreign policy comes to the fore. thats self explanatry. And here you're just being a racist, you're saying that they bring nothing to the world. Therefore you're saying that they're esser beings. What do they bring to the world? Well what you do without your precious oil? what about great pieces of persian art, or the large mosques Rawalpindi? what about the pyramids. What about tourism? the list goes on.

"Which one of the bill of rights do you guys really object to anyway? Which one of your rights do you want taken away? Your either idiots or masochists."

I'm not an American, I don't know anything about the bill of rights, nor do i want to know. I see enough of American repercussions on the outside world, not the inward looking bubble of America. Why the insults? they're no basis for argument.

"Actually, Im incline to believe that most of you simply are rebelling against your parents because they didn't buy you that new computer game last week."

Thats the way everyone on this site (one a few exceptions, CI, SN, AK) would expect you to think. You obviously have no grasp of politics, or the world around you.

--IHP

fettered

28th October 2002, 07:02

well, alot of those comments were written after viewing other sections of this forum, read the tread the voting age should be lowered to 16 and several other posts by ppl complaining about their high schools.

27 million in poverty? do you even know what counts as "poverty stricken" in America. A family makeing 60 thousand dollars a year is living in "poverty" according to american democrats definitions.

foreign policy? please. You know whats funny. If any country had a right to hate the US it would be japan. For crying out loud we dropped 2 a bombs on us. Yet, they really are poor and hate america now don't they?

Um, I dont seem to recall placing embargos on every nation in the world, only cuba.

America has shown so much self-restraint for a nation militarily and economicly dominating the world it is almost laughable. Do you ppl beleive that if china had the same power the us does not it wouldn't start committing human rights violations, even more then now (you know they are forced abortions there), left and right like their was no tommorow? Would France show so much restraint? Hardly, just look at their recent history. How many colonies did they have just 100 years ago.

Exploited Class

28th October 2002, 09:21

Quote: from fettered on 7:02 am on Oct. 28, 2002
well, alot of those comments were written after viewing other sections of this forum, read the tread the voting age should be lowered to 16 and several other posts by ppl complaining about their high schools.

I won't be reading any tread thank you very much. Oh and you must of read a thread that was heavy in youths because, oh I don't Mr. Proffesor let me take a good guess.... ahhh could it be perhaps it was a topic on being young?

27 million in poverty? do you even know what counts as "poverty stricken" in America. A family makeing 60 thousand dollars a year is living in "poverty" according to american democrats definitions.

Oh and how do they define that sneaky poverty level, hmmmm I guess a real kiddie (and I mean that in the nicest and sincere way, like a person with age and wisdom says it to somebody who is stupid) type who talks out of his ass with little backing would say like 60 qagillions or "you can like have like tons of like money and like the government will like be all kind of like thinking you are poor or something", here ya go champ a freebie. http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/povdef.html now, not to scare ya but its a link to a government site detailing just how they determine poverty. Now it has some math involved, maybe 3rd grade level and if you are a product of the United States Education system you might need some more help. But unless you had like 40 kids, no fucking person with 60,000 a year is considered living in poverty. So like I guess what I am saying is NO, you and your extreme views are wrong.

foreign policy? please. You know whats funny. If any country had a right to hate the US it would be japan. For crying out loud we dropped 2 a bombs on us. Yet, they really are poor and hate america now don't they?.

Say champ, let's say you and I go out to a bar together okay? Now you do something it pisses me off and we fight it out for say 3 years. Its all good and all till I pour out some acid, burn like 3/4 of your skin to a crisp so not even the healing hands of christ himself and ever return you to anything resembling a human. I then go ahead do it again before you say stop, but wait there is more. I am going to go to your apple pie mother and father who is innocent sure, and burn and kill them. Now I am not going to jail and in fact we work together. You going to say anything negative to my face again junior? Doubt it. Plus ya know what, you pretty much used Japan, who work only like 60 hours a week, finally got a guaranteed day off from work a week, the godamn working bees of the world, too busy to wipe their own asses because they are getting their much deserved sleep in a tram on the way to and from work, to have enough free time to stop and think about America's foreign policy?

Um, I dont seem to recall placing embargos on every nation in the world, only cuba.

Strange me neither. But then again I've been in a coma, 10 miles underground with no radio or people to communicate to me what is happening up above in the living world. So I missed the last 10 years of IRAQ's embargo. Oh and my 2 year old dog explained to me about these ones too, they are North Korea, Iran, Libya, Sudan and Syria. Wait nevermind you are right, these countries don't have U.S. trade embargos on them, that is happening only in fantasy liberalist american hating dream world, where it is all made up with only facts.

America has shown so much self-restraint for a nation militarily and economicly dominating the world it is almost laughable.

I am so with you on this one slugger. Like America showing that restraint by not going across seas to vietnam and Korea and killing people, or the restraint it showed when America didn't kill Kadafi, instead killed his daughter, that is some great restraint. Or how America really and I mean REALLY wanted to drop A bombs in China during the Korean war but didn't but kept on wanting to a whole bunch so they just bombed the fuck out of Korea.

So with that kind of restraint I guess when we do get into that bar fight, if I only burn 3/4 of your body with Acid, I will be showing restraint by not burning all your body. Nice. I have friends with that kind of restraint. They really want that 100 dollar jacket, but they show restraint because they can't afford it and get a 99.99 dollar jacket instead.

Do you ppl beleive that if china had the same power the us does not it wouldn't start committing human rights violations, even more then now (you know they are forced abortions there), left and right like their was no tommorow?

Pop quiz hot shot, you got 1.4 billion mouths to feed, that is this many 1,400,000,000.00 okay and your lands only produce enough food for 900,000,000, okay and like other "free market" countries limit their growth to raise up product price so you can't afford to import food what do you do? What do you do? Shoot people in the head, have 600,000,000 starve slowly and painfully in a grotesque manner that only some twisted Jeffery Dalmer knock off could enjoy to see? Or do you do the next human thing and save the people you got, get out education on how to not have babies and remove a few fertilized eggs from women and let me make this clear, not in the back of an alley like Americans do - killing the parent.

[/quote]Would France show so much restraint? Hardly, just look at their recent history. How many colonies did they have just 100 years ago.[/quote]

Well let's see, let's ask france? "Hey France after getting your asses severely pounded twice by Germany and knowing how it feels to have foreign invaders in your land and hating every moment of it, have you learned your lesson or would you do it all over again?"

"Oh most assuredly we have learned our lesson. We do however wish other countries and the individuals of those countries would learn those lessons as well, not the hard way like we did however because that would be sick, twisted and American to wish that kind of pain on anybody."

IHP

28th October 2002, 10:26

fettered, you have only addressed one argument, and that is regarding the 37M people that are below the poverty line in America. You are, of course aware that the link provided is a government site. Stats provided by the government, and written by the government. Your $60, 000 guess is inaccurate. If you read the link, it clearly says what is defined as 'poverty.'

Are you totally ignorant, are do you choose to close out all the information about your government. Only Cuba? Come on, you know thats not true.

Held back militarily? whats laughable is your total blindness to the facts. How many countries have had U$ military invovement? well Dubya has already invaded one, and he has clearly stated his intention to invade Iraq and North Korea. He almost had a war with China, and he tore up the Anti-Ballistic missile act with Russia. How about the fact that the U$ is the biggest exporter of arms in the world? Self-restraint? i don't think so.

China commits human rights abuses? yes, thats true they do. How about constantly bombing nations because of one man. HOw about the embargoes (yes, all of them, not just Cuba) that cripple economies so the starving masses cannot survive. That is human rights abuses.

--IHP

Moskitto

28th October 2002, 12:37

I mentioned muslim countries as an example of how great dictatorships were and how well they promote prosperity and new ideas.

regretably for you, this forum is "socialism vs capitalism" not "capitalism vs dictatorship."

Please name me a communist country thats not a dictatorship

Nicaragua
Grenada

Excluding WW2 Britain which was a planned economy, every democracy has been a mixed economy.

American Kid

28th October 2002, 20:18

This is good. Like the old days.

Keep it going you guys.

-the centrist

canikickit

28th October 2002, 20:24

Would France show so much restraint? Hardly, just look at their recent history. How many colonies did they have just 100 years ago.

Hee, hee, hee.

You're a fucking racist man.

What about Manifest Destiny?

That was okay though right, because the christian god said that land was all yours?

peaccenicked

28th October 2002, 21:31

fettered? Fettered by not having any inteligence whatsoever. Another dumb 'might is right' so-called patriot giving America a bad name.

redstar2000

28th October 2002, 22:04

To the folks who are fortunate enough not to live in the United States: now, at least, you see the kind of ass clowns we have to put up with. I know you have your own bastards; but for sheer monumental stupidity, America truly does LEAD THE WAY!

I know I'm kind of breaking the rules here; I should be bringing up facts and intelligent arguments, carefully refuting each and every howling absurdity, blatent distortion and outright lie.

Somehow, I just can't make myself do it. Whenever I run into people like this on any board, it just makes me want to throw up!

Someday, when America is a pile of smouldering rubble and the shivering survivors hope only that the UN occupation troops will give them something to eat and some coal to burn for warmth...then perhaps Americans will have finally learned the folly of empire, the ultimate fate of those who yield to the lust for war, conquest, and plunder.

As old Ben Franklin once said: experience is a hard school...but a fool will have no other!

LeonardoDaVinci

28th October 2002, 22:07

It actually amazes me how many intelligent right wing new comers come and share their great arguments with us. Oh..and their in depth knowledge of history is just so immaculate.

I am paricularly impressed with Fettered's recounting of America's long standing record of spreading freedom and democracy all over the world. From Iran, to Saudi Arabia, and to Nicaraugua. Not to mention Chile, Vietnam or Cambodia. Countries that will ever be indebted to America's altruistic and benevolent foreign policy.

God bless America.

fettered

28th October 2002, 22:39

So thats what this is all really about. Not socialism at all just good old fashion America Bashing. Hey, here's a news flash for ya, who saved Europes ass twice after they kept going to war with each other? You probably ask after america gave you the telephone; the internetl the computer; the tv; air conditioning; the laser; serving as a place of refuge for immigrants; vaccines for polio; tuberculosis, hepatitis B, pneumonia, and yellow fever; generous allotments of foreign aid; nearly all popular entertainment; an example of self government; the panama canal; discovery of DNA and countless other advancements what has america ever done for the world?

Does America have a crappy past? SURE. I don't think anyones refuting that. Difference is we have a tendency to correct the wrongs. Slavery? We got rid of that, although I can't say as much for many African countries. Women's rights? Now nice and equal. Go to the india where they have arranged marriages where sometimes the woman is killed because her family didn't provide an insufficient dowry.

Im not here to argue with non-americans. Its only natural for you to hate america as your countries are competing with it. Although, i would have to say, 27 million in poverty, your number, by the way did you know that the top Top 1% ($293,415<) pay 36.18% of all personal income taxes Top 5% ($120,846<) pay 55.45% of all personal income taxes Top 10% ($87,682<) pay 66.45% of all personal income taxes Top 25% ($52,965<) pay 83.54% of all personal income taxes Top 50% ($26,415<) pay 96% of all personal income taxes Bottom 50% (<$26,415) pay 4% of all personal income taxes here, hardly compares to lets see,,,,1,273,111,290 in poverty over there in china. hmmmmmmm.
Europes not so wealthy itself. Nearly every place over there is a dump and they live in apartments smaller then 1 room in an average house over in America. Yes, i do know that for a fact.
In Mexico the poor live in little concrete buildings. so dont go comparing american poor to the poor in any other country. there is no comparison.

Moskitto

28th October 2002, 22:52

the tv

I take it you've never heard of John Logi Baird?

Exploited Class

28th October 2002, 23:00

For the love of god Fettered who is the baby sitter that keeps leaving you alone long enough allowing you to get on a computer. Okay here is a tip, just because you found daddy's password to his screen saver doesn't mean you abuse it.

Now if you give me an address I'll send 2.00 dollars to your babysitter or reluctant parent to watch you a bit more closely.

fettered

28th October 2002, 23:05

i hear you ppl condemning self intrest. self intrest is the thing that makes the world turn.

In america we believe in this little thing called counterpoise. its where you check one persons self-intrest with another persons self-intrest. How do people become rich? BY SERVING OTHERS to make their buck. Do they care about the people they are serving? FAT CHANCE. nobody disagrees with that. but they do care about making other ppl buy their product so they are forced to look out for the other persons needs to satisfy their own "evil" wants.

and yes i hate enron executives as much as the next guy. thats why they are going to jail and i hope they get their assets seized.

Sovietsky Souyuz

28th October 2002, 23:07

yeah, a british guy invented televison, so up yours !!

and i'll say it again, if america is so big and powerfull, how come they wont do nothin without britain ?, and on an historical note , they needed FRANCE to help their revolution !

and if europe is such a shithole ,explain this lot ;

the pound is stronger than the dollar,
ford is owned by germans,
europe created modern america through emmigration,
if it wasnt for europes' wars, then americas' economy would be in shit state 'isolationism' ?,

Jaha

28th October 2002, 23:18

fettered, wouldn't you rather be UNfettered?

i would.

"Please name me a communist country thats not a dictatorship"

i laughed when i saw this. first, i chalenge you. name me a dictatorship worthy of the name 'communist'. (i'll give you a hint, you wont find one)

"good old fashion america bashing"

yeah. i suppose it could be called that. i find bashing any unjust, unequal capitalist facade to be a good thing. its not that i hate america, its that america isnt very nice. i have some complaining to do.

"Which one of the bill of rights do you guys really object to anyway?"

for me, i have a problem with all of them. they are lies. they are all jokes. the government cares little for them.

fettered

28th October 2002, 23:48

America wont do anything without Britian because thats called "playing the masses." The UN is a joke, it can't do anything without the US. The US uses it to shut europeans up. if the un rejected our whole war on terror thing right now do you think that would stop us? whos going to stop us? certainly not you with your selective "consciouses" seem to think any done by US is bad, while any 3rd rate dictatorship in any 3rd world country that oppresses its own people DIRECTLY can't do any wrong. As the US goes, so goes the world with it.

BTW I realize thats a very "shallow", "unmulticultural", and or "elitist" way to look at the world but in practicality it very nearly is true.

the french were so stupid that they tried to emulate America's revolution but couldn't quiet figure out how we did it and instead planted the socialists ideas that Marx expound on.

Socialism is like a dog that keeps jumping into the fire thinking hes not going to get burnt over and over again. Funny how America got capitalism right the 1st time...

Sorry folks, your little utopia fantasy is NEVER going to exist. nobody is claiming that capitalism is perfect, ITS NOT, by any means, but is is better then the next best alternative as history has proven over and over again. Cambodia anyone?

BTW i wonder what you guys think about baby farms? Thats a great utalitarianistic idea isn' it? Who needs the family when you got the state! I don't know about you but I prefer being allowed to move from city to city without needing a permit from the government telling me its alright.

Felicia

29th October 2002, 00:09

Grow up? But I don't wanna! My mommy says that when I'm a big girl, like big enough to use the big people potty, than I can do what ever I want! I can even be a fireman! And I think I just may be big enough now to use the big potty, but I just have to beable to...get.. uh.....my leg .....uh....up here.....and ....YAY!! I am now queen of the big potty world and you are my lowly servent boy (and if you're a girl......we can fix that, only boys are allowed in my queendom) :)

ps, I really don't take you seriouly enough to respond with anykind of dignity, good night :P

Exploited Class

29th October 2002, 00:12

See fettered you start like typing and what happens is I see nothing but a kid in a boy scout uniform, saying the pledge of alligance and eating hot apple pie.

Okay so let's try and get something straight here, Capitalism is built on Greed. Nothing more and nothing less, just out and out greed. Greed is one of those emotional things that humans are capable of but should not be practiced much like hate.

Okay now for lesson 2, people believe that their systems will never collapse and that they work very well, ask anybody in Rome around like 64 AD and they would tell you that Rome will last forever.

Okay now for lesson 3, for the love of everything good and pure please find the off button on what ever computer you are raping with your finger tips, and use said power button. Its a device created for the use of intelligence although made simple enough for anybody to use, that doesn't mean it is an invite for all simple people to use.

You might not know this, but you aren't helping your cause on bit.
Ya see, this speech here, let me just copy and paste,
if the un rejected our whole war on terror thing right now do you think that would stop us? whos going to stop us? certainly not you with your selective "consciouses"

That right there, sounds like Nazi Germany circa 1930s.
Just because the rest of the world doesn't really want to fight the U.S. because they hate the whole death, agony destruction clause in war.

unmulticultural
I don't even know if that is a real word to tell you the truth.

BTW I realize thats a very "shallow", "unmulticultural", and or "elitist" way to look at the world but in practicality it very nearly is true.

Okay champ so know you know your problem, so why not go ahead and figure out the fix to your elitist views. Personally I try and not think in a way that can be described negatively with words like shallow.

fettered

29th October 2002, 00:24

Your exatly right it is built on greed. thats the whole blasted point. You turn greed into something productive. The farmer is greedy and wants money so grows the best damb tomatoes he can at hte lowest price he can afford so more people buy his tomatoes.
People are greedy and want good tomatoes at a low price. So they go the greedy farmer and buy his tomatoes at a low price and both groups benefit.

yes there are middle steps involved but that is the general idea.

in socialism however, you have the state telling us who the farmer is going to be and at what price he's going to sell his tomatoes. Since the farmer knows can't get fired what does he care about providing lots of good tomatoes. All he has to do is meet the quota the government set so he won't get murdered by the police. What does the farmer care if the tomatoes are all rotten, he's been told what to do and thats all hes going to do.

I still want hear someone who thinks we should have baby farms.

Jaha

29th October 2002, 01:02

Quote: from fettered on 12:24 am on Oct. 29, 2002
Your exatly right it is built on greed. thats the whole blasted point. You turn greed into something productive. The farmer is greedy and wants money so grows the best damb tomatoes he can at hte lowest price he can afford so more people buy his tomatoes.
People are greedy and want good tomatoes at a low price. So they go the greedy farmer and buy his tomatoes at a low price and both groups benefit.

yes there are middle steps involved but that is the general idea.

in socialism however, you have the state telling us who the farmer is going to be and at what price he's going to sell his tomatoes. Since the farmer knows can't get fired what does he care about providing lots of good tomatoes. All he has to do is meet the quota the government set so he won't get murdered by the police. What does the farmer care if the tomatoes are all rotten, he's been told what to do and thats all hes going to do.

I still want hear someone who thinks we should have baby farms.

dont try to explain communism. that is your biggest mistake. stick with what you know.

and you do know capitalism. it is based on the idea that everybody deserves to be god. most religions and social ideals and people and organizations put 'greed' in a negative light. greed is wrong. capitalism is greed. do the fricking math.

communism is not a totalitarian state, you moron. the 'government' does not have the same possition as you know it. the 'government' is just an official way to say the 'people' or the 'concensus' or the 'polls'.

you want your freedoms? i'll tell you where you will get your freedoms. not some crappy doctrine written by wealthy elitists. your freedoms will grow from the fact that a commune can only truely exist with democracy and democracy (TRUE democracy) protects individual freedoms.

"What does the farmer care if the tomatoes are all rotten, he's been told what to do and thats all hes going to do"

if that farmer doesnt grow good tomatoes, he will suffer from eating his own poor tomatoes. his neighbors will suffer. he will see what a fool he was. the commune shakes at every failure and the individuals shake because the commune supports them.

fettered

29th October 2002, 01:25

Commune? What the heck are you talking about. That farmer is never going to see his neighbor unless we're talking about a small community here. World wide communism would be big in scale. The farmer isn't thinking about his neighbor, hes thinking about himself.

Man IS greedy! Nobody is born wanting to live in a cardboard box. Man IS NOT virtuous when it comes to choosing between his own prosperity or his neighbors.

Free markets use this fact about human nature to their advantage. Socialists deny this basic, obvious fact and try to make their own perfection or whatever.

If you were doing the virtuous thing right now you'd let me win this argument right now because you love mankind or whatever, but no, your doing the selfish thing because you think its in your self-interest.

Just because life is harder in a free market system doesn't make it bad. Sure in a commune or whatever your protected and don't have to think very much, thats all done for you, but then again so are circus animals.

man thinks, so let him. Don't force your retarded religion of government forcing everyone to live the goals of traditional religions on everyone else. Be kind (or serve) your neighbor and have everything in common. Ringing a bell? ITs in the bible for crying out loud.

You say that capitalism gives everyonethe right to be god, well what your saying is that you think everyone only has the right to be a sewer rat. Who's loving their neighbor now?

Talk about dashing people dreams. Better to keep them down in dust so we can rule, eh comrade?

IHP

29th October 2002, 07:29

Once again I ask you, do you, or do you not, know the diffence between "free market/trade" and "fair market/trade" Clearly you cannot distinguish between the two.

No one wants to live in a cardboard box. thats true. but why should one man have a mansion, and another in a cardboard box? how is that just? one man holds all the wealth, and another man had none.

Let you win? Why would we let someone who has no idea about his arguments win? you have little concept of the outside world. I think humans should be equal, but how is this relevent to an argument over the internet, it has no connection to love of man. why would you raise that.

A free market DOES make it harder, you have actually said something that hasn't bent the truth. How do have any concept of the world. why do you speak for everybody whose well being is affected by this system.
Then you go on to say that its not bad? im ot even going to answer that. Unfortunately you then flat out lie and say that you're protected. This is so far from the truth its not funny. so have you researched the difference between free and fair??? no, or else you wouldn't have said such a rediculous falsehood.

Here we go, another truth. "Man thinks." now this is correct. but why does one man with equal amounts of input earn much, much more money than another man? their output is the same. Unfortunaely for you Fettered, you have this big blind spot. its a big divide seperating the rich from the poor. why should a man live on either side of that divide if he has equal output.

"You say that capitalism gives everyonethe right to be god, well what your saying is that you think everyone only has the right to be a sewer rat. Who's loving their neighbor now? "

What are you talking aobut. i think you should "grow up"

"Talk about dashing people dreams. Better to keep them down in dust so we can rule, eh comrade?"

you misunderstand the entire communist theory. If you've read anything about the theory, you clearly missed from somewhere near the start, to somewhere near the end. Remember i asked you about maquiladoras? do you know what they are? they are the essence of your above quote, caused by 'greedy' American corporates

You said somewhere that America gives heaps of foreign aid. Yeah, GM aid. GM stuffs up their environment. the people are poor enough, it would ruin their land even further.
and what about the IMF? the damage caused by the IMF is totally incomprehensible. i can't be bothered explaining to you, you can't seem to understand the basics of free/fair trade, why confuse you further.

--IHP

--IHP

fettered

29th October 2002, 16:59

I really hate to burst your little commie bubble but go to every single one of your communist states and you will discover that there is still the haves and have nots. Ideology works great until you try and implement it and Communism has proven time and time again that it cannot be implemented correctly. Until God himself , that is of course if you believe in a god, is walking around earth and everyone is PERFECT your communist utopia will never exist because MAN IS NOT PERFECT.

Ever read harrison bergeron? Its a little short story. Its about a society that wants to make evgeryone equal in every aspect. Those who are stronger then others are tied down by weights so they are as weak as the weakest human. Communism would do that same thing economically. Instead of trying to build others up it only succeeds in tearing people down. So why would anyone bother to lift weights in a society like that?

Communism IS about realizing virtue. You ppl have said it yourself. Greed is not a virtue and you want to get rid of it. Well, you would consider not being GReedy a virtue wouldn't you?

Communism rests on the idea that everyone does make the same output in society. Well I've got a newsflash for you, they don't. The drugged out highschool dropout does not contribute to society as much as a biochemist with a phd. But you would like to treat them as if they were equal. We're not living in the 1900's anymore people. the world has changed as not everyone works in a steel factory anymore. Your models are a little outdated.

I think a lot of this has to come down to your own ineptitude and/or laziness.

Hayduke

29th October 2002, 17:19

fettered, you truly are an ignorant fool.

I am not a communist, but an social demoract. I doubt if you know the difference tough.

" Ever read harrison bergeron? Its a little short story. Its about a society that wants to make evgeryone equal in every aspect. Those who are stronger then others are tied down by weights so they are as weak as the weakest human. Communism would do that same thing economically. Instead of trying to build others up it only succeeds in tearing people down. So why would anyone bother to lift weights in a society like that? "

Its not tearing down, a shame you belive so. Ill give you a proper example. Bill gates the man with most money on earth has more then the entire poppulation of some African countries.
I see labour people do in there, being harderd then gates ever worked. Why does he deserve more then those people ?

In a capitalist society, only a few can win . Yes I used the word winning . In a capitalist society a handfull of people win from the rest. Millions of people suffer under this.

" Communism rests on the idea that everyone does make the same output in society. Well I've got a newsflash for you, they don't. The drugged out highschool dropout does not contribute to society as much as a biochemist with a phd. But you would like to treat them as if they were equal. We're not living in the 1900's anymore people. the world has changed as not everyone works in a steel factory anymore. Your models are a little outdated "

Why are our ideas outdated, I think they fit better in this time.
The class struggle still has been quit down. But the workers still dont get paid as well as the men above them. But it seems that those guys do less work then them.

I think this questions your first comment as well, do you truly believe people just get paid and fed in a communist society ?
Wake up You will still have to work for it.
But huge changes are ridiculous, and I think a metalworker deserves as much payment as a paperwork job.

I think a lot of this has to come down to your own ineptitude and/or laziness.

My dear friend, would you please volunteer to go ( example 0 by to the work of a garbagemen for a day. Heavy rain, Heavy containers and that a full day.
Coming home from a long day at work, with hurting body prts and knowing you have to do the same thing the next morning.

Its not laziness, its fair

fettered

29th October 2002, 17:40

Moskitto

29th October 2002, 17:40

while any 3rd rate dictatorship in any 3rd world country that oppresses its own people DIRECTLY can't do any wrong.

please cite an example as to where anyone on this forum has expressed total support for any dictatorship?

exactly, so BEFORE OPERATING MOUTH PLEASE ENGAGE BRAIN.

Hayduke

29th October 2002, 17:51

you know the difference. its because anybody, yea thats right, ANYBODY can be a garbageman. Anybody can work the fields, anybody can be a cashier, anybody can stock shelves. NOT ANYBODY draw up the plans for a building. NOT ANYBODY can create a computer. NOT ANYBODY can design a motor that gets 50mpg. THATS WHY these people get paid more, its because they can do things other people CAN'T. And you talk about fair...

You can't see the amount of strength it takes up, to get on with that everyday ? Why arent you seeing that hard labour deserves an equal payment, to work that is mainly done with the mind.

And I think your choice of words is a disgrace to many of the hard working labour men/women out there. Anybody can do it

Get a life, I aint good in constructive things, unlike my father.
Your comments are an insult on the labour people.
The people that help our society running.

Moskitto

29th October 2002, 17:59

Annother thing, American troops never entered direct combat in WW1, only provided reserves.

Guest

29th October 2002, 18:13

yeah, i'm sure you'd much rather be out there picking the fruit that you eat and taking out your own garbage. they do your dirty work and you repay them with "anyone can do that". capitalists like to climb on the backs of the working class with that pretentious argument but where would the CEO be if he treated everyone below him so shitty that they just decide not to work. thats the purpose of a strike. they make the gears turn. that's what marx predicted, that's what communism's based on, the working class taking bac the power. as far as baby farms and whatnot, i think a lot of communists would rather just turn the human race into an ant colony and be completely collectivist. i'm skeptical of most commies. but it's demonized by capitalist orthodoxy, and most miss the point it's making

the reason things have changed since the 1900s is because of the socialist ideals you deplore so much. if we'd gone right back to 'laisse-fairre' after WW2, we would hvae gone right back into the great depression. next time you feel fucked over by your boss and you have legal merit to a fair workplace, thank roosevelt and his 'new deal'. the fact is, america emloyed moderate socialism right there. their's still a long way to go, but it helped. capitalists and right-wingers have spent half a century trying to roll back to the 1900s. where a few will have all the money and a massive swarm of poor will be left to eat teir crumbs, and te middle class will dissipate. of course you site thrid world hell-holes for your point but i could cite just as many capitalist third world countries that went to hell just as fast. why not look at the fact that virtually all of europe is taking drastic socialist measures nad it's workign great. most western european countries are just as free as the US, but they just hae lower crime rates, lower unemployment rates, they have violated less internatinal labor organization laws, etc etc etc.

the US is a super-power. the only thing going for it is it can kick everyone's ass. it's citizens tend to arrogantly assume they're better than the whole world before even leaving their country and seeing....they also like to ignore how their great country has HELPED a lot of countries become so much shittier. whoever made the comparison between the roman emire is on the ball. today's empires are tomorrow's ashes. i guarantee the romans thought their empire would last forever, but it got the same complex america has and i guarantee the US will go out the same way.

Goldfinger

29th October 2002, 18:15

Quote: from fettered on 6:37 am on Oct. 28, 2002
You people amaze me. you people actually hate yourselves, (or your parents), so much that you would all actually be oppressed in a communist regime then have liberty in a free one.
We really don't have these meanings just for the sake of restricting our lives, but to avoid unfair distribution of goods. If you support capitalism, then you would have to agree that you're supporting the death od people starving in poverty throughout the world. I honestly don't think that a kid born hungry in Sudan deserves to risk to die at the age of 5.

In capitalism, you have the chance to make and keep as much money as possible, but most likely, you will end up having to work for a big company. Then the only freedom you have is to choose between starving or working for them, when you could be co-oporating with others to get your food and resources. It's sad to see people dying because their parents couldn't afford a vaccine against a disease, and that's what capitalism leads to. You can see it happening to people in USA and Mexico, amongst other capitalist countries.

Not everyone would choose to praise a system that's good for them , when it means almost slavery for others. Let's say I live in the in 1940:

I'm white, and from Norway. Hitler looks up to me and my aryan race. If I want to, I can live in the third reich, and have no economical problems. All of the work will be done by jewish slaves, and that doesn't affect me or my friends, because none of them are jews. Then you might ask yourself: Why not?

The answer: Because it's wrong and unethical, even though it's popular amongst a few. I wouldn't endorse it, because I would know that I would support oppressing the actual majority.

And why am I comparing this situation to capitalism?
Because that's almost what's happening. 33 million americans live in poverty, and most workers make 17 dollars per 100 dollars worth of work. And Mexico is even worse: It's a country rich on resources, but with a low standard of living. Only through using sweatshops in Mexico, Taiwan, China and other places, can Disney, Mc Donalds, Nike and Adidas sell their products all the way to the small monarchy of Norway, where I chose not to buy it because it's scum.

Goldfinger

29th October 2002, 18:43

http://www.sidewalkbubblegum.com/images/068.gif

fettered

29th October 2002, 19:11

Talking about visiting other countries you guys should give it a shot sometime. Do you even have a clue about what actually goes on ni America? There's this little thing we've got here you guys might have heard of, but don't have in your own counties. Its called the middle class. And that is precisely where the majority of people fall in America. They are not poor and not rich. If you doubt it just go for a drive around the countryside. You only find slums in the inner cities, suberbia is extremely "fair."
No one, certainly not me, is advocating pure capitalism. We dont do it and there's areason for that. At the same time thats not to say we should go all out communism like everyone in this board seems to think will work fo whatever reason even though history has proven that those countries are good at only one thing, killing their own citezens.
Capitalism is the worst system out there but its better then all the other ones out there to borrow from winston churchill(yes i know he said democracy but use your imagination).
Just so you know, garbae men in america are not living in poverty, many make more money then school teachers.
I dont know what your definition of poverty is but I can bet you it doesn't include owning a car and expensive jewelry. Whens the last time you visitied an American city?
The poor will always be with us, its a fact of life get over it. Communism just makes it so everyone is equally poor. How fair and compassionate.
Its like saying, I would rather my neighbor and myself both earn five bucks rather then him 8 and me 6 because its not fair that he earns more then me.
And you all are suggesting dictatorship because thats what inevitably happens when a country goes communist. the only difference is they do it in the name of the people. A dictatorship of 10 ppl still counts as a dictatorship.

fettered

29th October 2002, 19:17

speaking of the sudan, I think one of the reasons a 5 year old would die so fast is because for the past 20 years Sudan has been in a civil war pitting Arab northerners agaisnt black southerners. Not to mention the real live slavery of about 100,000 ppl going on over there.

Moskitto

29th October 2002, 19:44

There's this little thing we've got here you guys might have heard of, but don't have in your own counties. Its called the middle class

I never knew I didn't actually exist, or I exist in America but think I exist over here, try visiting some other countries yourself.

Guest

29th October 2002, 19:58

yes. you CAN argue that the poor will always be with us and we need to just shut up and accept it, or you can look at the fact that we have the highest percentage of our population below the poverty line in any industrialized country. i personally am not saying anyone should get equal distribution regardless of how well they work but most industrialized countries don't see it so unreasonable to just provide for their citizens better. health care is universal for citizens of canada and most of western europe and we still think it's outrageous to consider it(and many american doctors are moving up to canada because they provide better benefits to their workers). and you said anybody can look at an american suburb and see that it's perfectly fair, etc, but the fact is, you just brushed aside poverty as an inner city problem. yeah, well, what about that inner city? it's still there, isn't it? or are you just happier sweeping the problems under the rug? it's there and it's a bigger problem than in any other industrialized country because were so fucking opposed to the idea that maybe it's not such a bad thing to provide socialist benefits...courtesy of james mccarthy, we're stil trying to fight off the Reds by capitalizing, spending all our taxes on the military and corporate subsidies and if someone can't get enough to eat, it's their problem. fuck that.

not to mention, most of the poverty capitalism induces isn't even in the country, you'd have to go to the third world to see how we've ravaged them. and maybe the sudan isn't the best example because most of our sweatshops aren't in the middle east. look at latin america. a lot of their political problems are due to us funding reactionary dictators to overthrow anything that promises social justice there. for example, we fought che and the guerrilas in favor of the batista government which was actually quite a bit worse than the communist cuba is now. and my problem with communist cuba is that it's a dictatorship, not it's communist. totalitarianism in any form sucks. fascist or communist. you can just as easily blame our trade embargos for cuba's poverty as you can their economic system. you can't deny that their are shitloads of people living in poverty due to our system. and pointing to one example of people living in poverty that has nothing to do with us doesn't get rid of all the people who are living in poverty because of us

but i'm sure you'd rather just think that nobody suffere and died for the oil you put into your car and nobody lived under slave conditions for your nikes(or better yet: "they need the job. whips and chains are okay if it'll make em work. if they get beat it's their problem for not working hard enough. it doesnt matter if they get paid 10 cents a day, things cost less their. or if they're 9 years old, because their parents need them to work because they lost their own jobs when the factory moved down and wrecked their economy or their hopes of pulling themselves out of poverty." the excuses go on. and if it makes you feel better about your precious corporate america, your flag, your car, or whatever else you need justification for, then keep on peaching the gospel of NAFTA.

fettered

29th October 2002, 20:21

so your solution to this was???? Nobodys denying we got problems, but who doesn't? fact is we're just as screwed up as the rest of the world but that doesn't mean the rest of the world isn't screwed up too. Before America was around it was England, France, and Germany doing all the screwing, so to suggest that all the worlds problems come from the US now and completely disregarding any other outside factors is , hows this, unfair and shortsided. If you guys are so concerned about the poor why don't you go think up something new for a change rather then going back to a failed discredited philosophy thats never eliminated poverty anywhere, in thefist place, and where human rights are unarguably trampled under foot in the name of the people.
At least America HAS ideals to not live up to, unlike many other countries that don't even pretend to be democratic, or of all things, even protect freedom speech.

Guest

29th October 2002, 21:21

wow...did you even read all my posts? i by no means said ALL the world's problems were because of the US. i even addressed that topic. i just said that fact doesn't change the fact that a good deal are. and yeah, is point the fingers at the other countries doing any good? other countries can, have, and are providing measures to take care of their poor(germany, england, and france included). and it's quite successful. their crime rates lower, their teen pregnancy rates are lower, their schools are better, their presses have been considered freer than ours by many foreign journalists, their poverty rate's far lower(percentage-wise, so don't pull and of that our population's bigger crap), they waste less, pollute less, etc etc etc. i'm not saying they're perfect either. nobody is. but that's no excuse to cop out and justify to the death every single fucked-up thing your country's done in the name of capitalism or patriotism or whatever. looks to me like you've gone from rational discourse to throwing a fit and trying to make others who refuted your stance to look like the assholes. i'm bored with you

Guest

29th October 2002, 21:32

a few more points:

1: you can't say communism robs people of rights. in theory, it allows people the freedom to be themselves in terms of things other than what they own and what they can buy. that's a concept foreign to anyone in the west

2: communism has never been given the chance to work. in russia, it was forced into an arms race because it was as scared shitless of us as we were of them and all their money went to making bombs. in cuba we immediately cut off trade with them and placed all sorts of embargos to stunt their economic growth all in the name of protecting free markets. both were dictatorship totalitarian institutions that i am not saying were GOOD in any way, just that if you wanna talk about "outside factors" it's "short-sighted" to think communism was the main factor in collapsing their economies. in bulgaria(this wasn't even a dictatorship, this was a democratically elected communism), the americans funded counter-revolutionaries to stage riots and protests and we threatened to stop trading with them if they were communists. the communists won the election but due to US-funded opposition(much of which was violent and illegal) they had to give up office. communism, especially in a true egalitarian democratic form(not stalinist or castroist) has never even been given a chance, so you really can't say that.

point number 2: american ideals are noble but overrated. lots of countries do have ideals to hold to. america is not unique in that regard. our bill of rights is something to be respected but even our founding fathers weren't exactly as noble in living up to them as our history books paint them.

point number 3: i am not a communist.

'nough said

fettered

29th October 2002, 22:16

well im bored with you as well if that makes you feel better. England has a much violent crime rate then the US. so does austrailia. 3rd world countries pollute more then the US as we have pollution standered and they don't. The press sure is free in the middle east and most of asia and africa. europes the only place where you might be right on parts in each country but not everything in all of them.
Theories themselves are nothing. Its the implementation of those theories that people care about. A guy may have a theory that because forest fires can occur naturally we should let them burn down our house in the forest. And thats all well and good until a person decides to enforce that theory with a gun which is what people have done with communism since its inception.

All I know is that I haven't heard many people from communist countries who seemed to enjoy it very much. Why is China trying to move toward more capitalistic reforms? the Soviets did the same thing to keep their little economy afloat.

Whatever, this is dull.

Exploited Class

29th October 2002, 22:27

Quote: from fettered on 10:16 pm on Oct. 29, 2002

Whatever, this is dull.

That's because it is big people talk.

Guest

29th October 2002, 22:45

as far as pollution standards go, that's definitely true. why do you think OUR factories are being moved down there? to avoid OUR pollution standards. that didn't refute my point it proved it. see how great NAFTA and GATT are?

as far as my statements i wasn't applying each one to each individual country, i was speaking in general, so you're definitely right about it not being true for every country. keep in mind that when i was talking about "free presses" i said NOTHING about the middle east and africa, i said "industrial countries".

as far as violent crime in england vs. america, i'll have to read up on it. i'll get back to you.

Guest

29th October 2002, 23:03

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html

my stats say otherwise

fettered

30th October 2002, 00:10

violent crime. not deaths. so if you enjoy being alive but in constant fear your going to be mugged what sort of life is that anyway.

IHP

30th October 2002, 01:36

Your arguments are flat out lies. You have not yet addressed any arguments about your original free market statement. You havent addressed anything that is fact!.

"England has a much violent crime rate then the US. so does austrailia. 3rd world countries pollute more then the US as we have pollution standered and they don't.

This is a flat out lie. crime rates: U$A:700 per 100 000 in prison. Australia: 210 per 100 000 who has a higher crime rate? yes. You lied.

Second lie.3rd world countries pollute more? no. Australia is the highest per Capita. U$A comes in at a very close second. And which countries won't ratify the Kyoto Protocol? exactly.

You constantly babble with your arguments of "we're bad, but other people are worse, so it doesn't matter." These are the statements you have been making. Where are your researched arguments, you have not shown any.

I have two little bits of homework for you. Due the next time you post.
OK: first. Whats the difference between a free market/trade, and a fair marke/trade. (this is the third time i have aked you, and you refuse to address this. you have no idea do you?)
Second. What are maquiladoras? why do they exist, due to which country?

ok. maybe after this you'll actually have a researched argument. I look forward to it.

--IHP