CPRF & Homophobia

[Dimentio]

So what do these guys do besides denouncing Indiana Jones and trying to save a chemical laden corpse?

Yes, I am taking the piss, but really, that seems to be all we hear from the Russian Communist Party and I should hope they're doing things that are, ahem, more worthy of the attention of the working class than this sort of wankery.

Don't forget they are attacking pride parades as well...

[bcbm]

Don't forget they are attacking pride parades as well...


Wow, sounds like a bunch of winners.

[Cossack]

attacking pride parades sounds right for communists, take no pride in the fact of gay, straight, black, white but do take proud in the fact that your human and communist.

[RedAnarchist]

attacking pride parades sounds right for communists, take no pride in the fact of gay, straight, black, white but do take proud in the fact that your human and communist.

Attacking gay pride parades is wrong no matter what you think we should be proud of as communists and as humans.

[Cossack]

Attacking gay pride parades is wrong no matter what you think we should be proud of as communists and as humans.

People are taking pride that they are "different" and by taking pride in that it gives them the idea that they are better, It's not communism or equality it's fascism.

[Kropotesta]

People are taking pride that they are "different" and by taking pride in that it gives them the idea that they are better, It's not communism or equality it's fascism.
I'm pretty sure gay pride marches aren't saying that they're better than anyone else :rolleyes:
That's why they're fighting for equal rights and I see nothing wrong with a discriminated section of society getting together and saying they're proud to be who they are in spite of the bigots.

[Cossack]

I'm pretty sure gay pride marches aren't saying that they're better than anyone else :rolleyes:
That's why they're fighting for equal rights and I see nothing wrong with a discriminated section of society getting together and saying they're proud to be who they are in spite of the bigots.


Before anyone takes this the wrong way, I'm not saying that they should be ashamed, but rather that such things should be background information, Yes equal rights are needed but that's why we should be a united front rather then a whole bunch of different sects, they are working for the rights of one group. If they succeed they will join the rest of society to oppress other groups.

[trivas7]

People are taking pride that they are "different" and by taking pride in that it gives them the idea that they are better, It's not communism or equality it's fascism.
Oppressed people are taking pride in the fact that they are any one's equal, not that they are better. Oppressed people will always band together and fight. Why shouldn't they celebrate their difference?

Sorry that this has hijacked the thread.

[Cossack]

yeah i also apologize for the jacked thread, but still by celebrating such differences it further divides us into different camps and although the goal is to achieve equality it is only for themselves not all.

I'm restricted now?

[RedAnarchist]

yeah i also apologize for the jacked thread, but still by celebrating such differences it further divides us into different camps and although the goal is to achieve equality it is only for themselves not all.

I'm restricted now?

Yes, although I don't know how you're able to post in this thread still.

[Dr Mindbender]

yeah i also apologize for the jacked thread, but still by celebrating such differences it further divides us into different camps and although the goal is to achieve equality it is only for themselves not all.

I'm restricted now?

i think you should be banned.

[3A CCCP]

Before anyone takes this the wrong way, I'm not saying that they should be ashamed, but rather that such things should be background information, Yes equal rights are needed but that's why we should be a united front rather then a whole bunch of different sects, they are working for the rights of one group. If they succeed they will join the rest of society to oppress other groups.

What I think Cossack is trying to say is that single-issue causes are futile and doomed in the long run no matter how noble the goal. (At least, that is what I think he is saying. I don't want to get dragged into a brawl over this one since I get attacked frequently enough on revleft.)

Personally, I am not a fan of single issue causes. Once a single issue cause is settled to the satisfaction of the group it affects, that group disappears into the woodwork and the capitalist system keeps on rolling along. The only way to succeed in overthrowing the capitalist system is uniting all people under the workers' red banner of Marxism-Leninism. That includes all workers regardless of race, ethnicity, gender, sexual preference, etc.

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

[bcbm]

What I think Cossack is trying to say is that single-issue causes are futile and doomed in the long run no matter how noble the goal.

So it is acceptable for communists to attack pride parades? What about feminist marches, civil rights marches, immigrant marches, etc?

[3A CCCP]

So it is acceptable for communists to attack pride parades? What about feminist marches, civil rights marches, immigrant marches, etc?

That's not what I said or implied, and you know it. I'm not getting into an argument over this. Go pick a fight with someone else.

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

[bcbm]

That's not what I said or implied, and you know it. I'm not getting into an argument over this. Go pick a fight with someone else.

Well you're defend a comrade who said attacking a pride parade was acceptable behavior for communists, and as far as I know, you haven't said anything to denounce the homophobic tendencies of the Russian CP. So what is your position? There is no fight to pick if you think it is unacceptable behavior and won't defend the CP as such, but I suspect that isn't the case.


Evidently this is the fault of the media you've been reading and not of the Russian Communist Party.

Well, I am just going off of what the people most sympathetic to that party seem to think is worthy of being posted here.

[3A CCCP]

Well you're defend a comrade who said attacking a pride parade was acceptable behavior for communists, and as far as I know, you haven't said anything to denounce the homophobic tendencies of the Russian CP. So what is your position? There is no fight to pick if you think it is unacceptable behavior and won't defend the CP as such, but I suspect that isn't the case.



Well, I am just going off of what the people most sympathetic to that party seem to think is worthy of being posted here.

Do I think attacking the gay pride parade is unacceptable behavior? - Absolutely!

Do I support the gay pride movement? Absolutely not!

While everyone should have equal rights, these rights can only be won under a united workers' Communist movement. Single issue movements, whether they be homosexual rights, Civil Rights, etc. are narrowly focused social democratic movements that are working within the capitalist system and fighting for rights and privileges of the capitalist system.

Once the goals of a single issue movement are achieved, the group fighing for those goals steps back and, for all intents and purposes, withdraws from the battle against capitalism.

The end result is that these social democrats release steam from the capitalist pressure cooker that had the potential to explode and actually strengthen the capitalist grip on the state and economy.

The two best recent historic examples of this are the Civil Rights movement and the anti-Vietnam War movement. With all due respect to Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., all he and his movement actually accomplished was the raising of black Americans to a level of equal exploitation with white Americans by the bourgeoisie.

While the anti-Vietnam War movement helped pressure Washington to withdraw from Vietnam, what was the long term result? A release of steam from the pressure cooker, a period of relative quiet, and everything starts all over again - invasions of Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.

If the Civil Rights movement and anti-Vietnam War movement would have been united under the Communist workers' banner we might not be having this discussion today.

Regarding the CPRF, I am the first to agree that the Party is revisionist, and Zyuganov is not fulfilling his Marxist-Leninist obligation to do whatever is necessary to overthrow the Putin-Medvedyev regime.

However, I do not believe the CPRF organized or sanctioned participation in an attack on the gay pride parade you are refering to. If members of the CPRF participated in the attack, they were individuals acting on their own and not at the direction or encouragement of the Party. If you have evidence to the contrary then I stand corrected.

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

[communard resolution]

i think you should be banned.

I don't think Cossack should be banned. He only expressed a bit less eloquently what 3A CCCP reiterated much more clearly later on: in his opinion, movements that emphasize on differences between working class people are divisive rather than progressive.

I personally don't share this view. IMO, in countries where homophobia is widespread and homosexuals permanently risk physical harm for their orientation, there is a real pragmatic need for emancipation of non-mainstream sexualities on a day-to-day basis. You cannot expect these people to wait for the revolution to happen until they can live their lives without discrimination and the fear of violent prosecution.

I find it a bit hysteric to think of Cossack's statement as homophobic, though. He merely expressed a difference of opinion on single-issue movements, and perhaps he didn't express it well. My suggestion to him would be to read up on gay people's everyday experience of living in extremely homophobic societies: I'm sure this will convince him of the urgent necessity of gay pride parades and such in present-day Russia.

Assuming it is true that members of the CPFR have been involved in attacking pride parades, the party should hang their heads in shame, expel the individuals in question, and publicly apologize.

[Cossack]

Perhaps not attacking such parades yet disproving of them, if they want protection they should join in with the larger communist groups and seek normality and safety, as I feel that would be better for their selves and for the communist group.

[Cossack]

What I think Cossack is trying to say is that single-issue causes are futile and doomed in the long run no matter how noble the goal. (At least, that is what I think he is saying. I don't want to get dragged into a brawl over this one since I get attacked frequently enough on revleft.)

Personally, I am not a fan of single issue causes. Once a single issue cause is settled to the satisfaction of the group it affects, that group disappears into the woodwork and the capitalist system keeps on rolling along. The only way to succeed in overthrowing the capitalist system is uniting all people under the workers' red banner of Marxism-Leninism. That includes all workers regardless of race, ethnicity, gender, sexual preference, etc.

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

This is my point exactly!

Edit: Thank you 3A CCCP! may we be friends hopefully.

[communard resolution]

Perhaps not attacking such parades yet disproving of them, if they want protection they should join in with the larger communist groups and seek normality and safety, as I feel that would be better for their selves and for the communist group.

So are they supposed to walk the streets in large communist groups every time they pop out to buy some milk? Are you aware of the levels of hate crime in present day Russia?

[3A CCCP]

So are they supposed to walk the streets in large communist groups every time they pop out to buy some milk? Are you aware of the levels of hate crime in present day Russia?

A Chechen might have to walk in a group to go out and buy some milk, but unless a homosexual has a sign pasted on him/her that he/she is homosexual then I think he/she wouldn't be in any danger.

Hate crime in the Russian Federation is at its present levels precisely because of the reinstitution of capitalism. Resistance to the government over the last 17 years has morphed from a basically united Communist front into various groups and single issue causes. This is exactly what bourgeois democracy does to protect the system - split up the resistance and keep them at each others throats.

A Marxist-Leninist understands that we are in a class war and our common denominator is the working class!

A homosexual that is a Marxist-Leninist and believes in the above is a comrade. A homosexual that is a member of the working class is a potential comrade. A homosexual that is part of the bourgeosie or its lackey is an enemy.

In the above you can substitute for homosexual the words "African American," "Latino," "Causasian," etc. It all boils down to the same thing - class is the common denominator, the glue that holds us together.

It seems to me that there is a large, vocal contingent on this forum that is ready to brand anyone that disagrees with the gay rights agenda a "homophobe" and/or "fascist." These people are not Communists, but social democrats whose overriding concern is their particular single issue cause.

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

[communard resolution]

Hate crime in the Russian Federation is at its present levels precisely because of the reinstitution of capitalism. I agree. Therefore, the long term goal must be to abolish capitalism. It just so happens that at present, not every victim of hate crime is a communist, and for one reason or another may not not prepared to join the communist movement. If Communist party members attack gay pride parades, I can see how a Russian homosexual might be unwilling to join these 'comrades'. I could bring up some other facts about the present-day CPFR that relate to antisemitism and xenophobia, but I will restrain from it at this point.

Communists or not, homosexuals deserve to live their lives without fear of violent prosecution, and I fully support their day-to-day attempts at emancipation. They deserve to have these very basic human rights NOW, not after the revolution. Perhaps they would be more willing to join the broader communist struggle if they felt the CPFR opposed homophobia, but it doesn't look like they do, does it?



It seems to me that there is a large, vocal contingent on this forum that is ready to brand anyone that disagrees with the gay rights agenda a "homophobe" and/or "fascist." Hold on, Mikhail. Who called you a homophobe or a fascist?

[3A CCCP]

Hold on, Mikhail. Who called you a homophobe or a fascist?

Noone, but they jumped on Cossack for what at worst was a poorly worded post. I don't know him or his politics, but from what I read his only "crime" was poorly expressing himself.

The threat of this type of slander hanging over list members like a sword has the potential to stifle any real serious debate or discussion. This doesn't just concern the gay rights activists on the list, but other groups as well that are ready to jump on a single word that doesn't fit in with their agenda and go into attack mode.

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

[Cossack]

yeah i didn't word it correctly. What i meant to really say by that is that homosexual people aren't the only ones who are oppressed, what makes them so much more special that they get in line in front of the common man?

[Cossack]

This is exactly what bourgeois democracy does to protect the system - split up the resistance and keep them at each others throats.
It's an old war tactic, divide and conquer.

[Sentinel]

Perhaps not attacking such parades yet disproving of them, if they want protection they should join in with the larger communist groups and seek normality and safety, as I feel that would be better for their selves and for the communist group.


How should this search for normality take place?

How do you define normality?


unless a homosexual has a sign pasted on him/her that he/she is homosexual then I think he/she wouldn't be in any danger.


In other words, homosexuals should be in the closet -- no public kissing, holding hands, or anything such. No living together with partners, no public displays of their sexuality of the kind hetereosexuals daily do and take for granted.

Fuck that shit, we will fight for our rights with the help of your parties, without it, or despite their resistance to our struggle.


However, I do not believe the CPRF organized or sanctioned participation in an attack on the gay pride parade you are refering to. If members of the CPRF participated in the attack, they were individuals acting on their own and not at the direction or encouragement of the Party. If you have evidence to the contrary then I stand corrected.

It's leader Zjuganov calls gay pride parades unhealthy and contradictory to russian traditions. Prominent members like Pavel Tarasov get away with taking part in anti-gay riots and saying stuff like 'a good faggot is a dead one'. LINK (http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/view/3617/1/191),LINK (http://gayrussia.ru/en/news/detail.php?ID=10970).

If prominent members of the Russian CP actually physically attack prideparades and it's highest leadership apologises for that, why should we not believe guys like 'Cossack' actually support just that, if they come here and post stuff like 'attacking pride parades sounds like the right thing for communists to do' when that is dicussed?

No, I'm not buying that bullshit at all.

[Nosotros]

What I think Cossack is trying to say is that single-issue causes are futile and doomed in the long run no matter how noble the goal. (At least, that is what I think he is saying. I don't want to get dragged into a brawl over this one since I get attacked frequently enough on revleft.)

Personally, I am not a fan of single issue causes. Once a single issue cause is settled to the satisfaction of the group it affects, that group disappears into the woodwork and the capitalist system keeps on rolling along. The only way to succeed in overthrowing the capitalist system is uniting all people under the workers' red banner of Marxism-Leninism. That includes all workers regardless of race, ethnicity, gender, sexual preference, etc.

3A CCCP!
Mikhail
And what if you're not a Marxist-Leninist?

[communard resolution]

It's leader Zjuganov calls gay pride parades unhealthy and contradictory to russian traditions. Prominent members like Pavel Tarasov get away with taking part in anti-gay riots and saying stuff like 'a good faggot is a dead one'. LINK (http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/view/3617/1/191),LINK (http://gayrussia.ru/en/news/detail.php?ID=10970).

It's quite shocking to read the articles you've linked to. I may have been a bit naive when I expected the CPFR to expel the members in question.

[3A CCCP]

And what if you're not a Marxist-Leninist?

Then you are not a comrade! If you are a social democrat you are helping the bourgeoisie even if it is unintentional, and that makes you an enemy.

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

[Bilan]

So? The workers movement isn't shaped by the prejudices of the bourgeoisie...

[3A CCCP]

How should this search for normality take place?

How do you define normality?



In other words, homosexuals should be in the closet -- no public kissing, holding hands, or anything such. No living together with partners, no public displays of their sexuality of the kind hetereosexuals daily do and take for granted.

Fuck that shit, we will fight for our rights with the help of your parties, without it, or despite their resistance to our struggle.



It's leader Zjuganov calls gay pride parades unhealthy and contradictory to russian traditions. Prominent members like Pavel Tarasov get away with taking part in anti-gay riots and saying stuff like 'a good faggot is a dead one'. LINK (http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/view/3617/1/191),LINK (http://gayrussia.ru/en/news/detail.php?ID=10970).

If prominent members of the Russian CP actually physically attack prideparades and it's highest leadership apologises for that, why should we not believe guys like 'Cossack' actually support just that, if they come here and post stuff like 'attacking pride parades sounds like the right thing for communists to do' when that is dicussed?

No, I'm not buying that bullshit at all.


It's too bad that you are not a Communist! We could use some fervor for the class struggle like you demonstrate for gay rights.

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

[communard resolution]

Are there any Communist parties aside from the CPFR in Russia? Given the exploits of some CPFR members and the utterly unapologetic stance of the party leadership, even the NazBols seem like a more viable option in comparison. At least the NazBols haven't made any homophobic or antisemitic statements so far, much less have they been involved in attacking gay pride parades.

EDIT: This doesn't speak for the NazBols, it speaks against the CPFR.

[Kropotesta]

To you maybe, but to the West it would symbolize the final burial of Communism.

3A CCCP!
Mikhail
So what?

[3A CCCP]

Are there any Communist parties aside from the CPFR in Russia? Given the exploits of some CPFR members and the utterly unapologetic stance of the party leadership, even the NazBols seem like a more viable option in comparison. At least the NazBols haven't made any homophobic or antisemitic statements so far, much less have they been involved in attacking gay pride parades.

EDIT: This doesn't speak for the NazBols, it speaks against the CPFR.

Actually, the Nazbols called for the liquidation of homosexuals by firing squad.

...Nazbols also call to eliminate the gay and lesbians of Russia. According to the Maost Internationalist Movement the Limonka newspaper website at one point contained a leaflet of a firing squad with the dialogue "We don't care which one is the gay pedophile". ..

http://www.geocities.com/h_marroquin/National-Bolshevik.html


3A CCCP!
Mikhail

[3A CCCP]

So what?

Obviously, you're not a Communist. Otherwise, you would care about the symbolism and understand the message it would send.

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

[communard resolution]

Actually, the Nazbols called for the liquidation of homosexuals by firing squad.

Wow, that's a new one to me. As far as I'm aware, there are a lot of homosexuals in the NazBol party?

[Sentinel]

It's too bad that you are not a Communist! We could use some fervor for the class struggle like you demonstrate for gay rights.

So that was all you had to say? I'm 'not a communist', while people like Zjuganov and Tarasov assumingly are?

Firstly, explain how people who fight not for the liberation of all workers but merely that of straight ones are communists.

Secondly, explain what you base your accusation of my alleged 'un-communism' upon. I mean, it's a mystery, as I'm active in an organisation which organises workers against the ruling class and daily takes the fight against the class enemy, strives to smash capitalism and works to create a libertarian socialist society.

[Red October]

Secondly, explain what you base your accusation of my alleged 'un-communism' upon. I mean, it's a mystery, as I'm active in an organisation which organises workers against the ruling class and daily takes the fight against the class enemy, strives to smash capitalism and works to create a libertarian socialist society.

This makes you a capitalist :p

[Philosophical Materialist]

Who needs the bourgeois state, when so-called communists are ready to enforce heteronormativity for them?

Are we to attack any ant-war, female liberation, GLBT liberation, anti-colonialist movements if they are not headed by self-described Marxist-Leninists?

Talk about spiting one's face.

[trivas7]

Personally, I am not a fan of single issue causes.
Neither am I, but communists attacking gay pride celebrations is fucking stupid and wrong. In terms of class solidarity alone, what class do they think the majority of gays belong to?

[3A CCCP]

So that was all you had to say? I'm 'not a communist', while people like Zjuganov and Tarasov assumingly are?

Firstly, explain how people who fight not for the liberation of all workers but merely that of straight ones are communists.

Secondly, explain what you base your accusation of my alleged 'un-communism' upon. I mean, it's a mystery, as I'm active in an organisation which organises workers against the ruling class and daily takes the fight against the class enemy, strives to smash capitalism and works to create a libertarian socialist society.

While Communists should be fighting for the liberation of all workers, you're approach is also not Marxist-Leninist. You're narrow focus ignores the class struggle and concentrates on your single issue.

I don't know what organization you belong to and you can call yourself anything you desire, but your posts would imply that you put the gay rights movement above the workers movement and class solidarity.

While it is probably true that most homosexuals are in the working class, a large number are not, and are class enemies. The gay rights movement does not (and cannot) teach its followers the basics of class struggle precisely because of this contradiction.

By not taking a Marxist-Leninist approach and uniting workers under the Communist banner you may win concessions under the capitalist system for your single issue cause, but you are not furthering the demise of the capitalist system despite your illusions to the contrary.

Getting defensive and angry at me and others because we disagree with you is not conducive to this (or any other) discussion. I realize I am not going to convince you of anything. I am just stating my opinion.

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

[3A CCCP]

Wow, that's a new one to me. As far as I'm aware, there are a lot of homosexuals in the NazBol party?

I'm not an expert on the NazBols, but I was always under the impression that they were anti-homosexual. This latest information seems to confirm that.

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

[Unicorn]

While Communists should be fighting for the liberation of all workers, you're approach is also not Marxist-Leninist. You're narrow focus ignores the class struggle and concentrates on your single issue.

I don't know what organization you belong to and you can call yourself anything you desire, but your posts would imply that you put the gay rights movement above the workers movement and class solidarity.

While it is probably true that most homosexuals are in the working class, a large number are not, and are class enemies. The gay rights movement does not (and cannot) teach its followers the basics of class struggle precisely because of this contradiction.

By not taking a Marxist-Leninist approach and uniting workers under the Communist banner you may win concessions under the capitalist system for your single issue cause, but you are not furthering the demise of the capitalist system despite your illusions to the contrary.
I agree with Lenin's position that the gay rights movement and other single-issue emancipation movements are a diversion. The issue is however that Zjuganov & co are against gay rights, also in a socialist society. A true socialist society has to be built on the principle of equality and Zjuganov's approach to this question is right-revisionist.

[Sentinel]

While Communists should be fighting for the liberation of all workers, you're approach is also not Marxist-Leninist. You're narrow focus ignores the class struggle and concentrates on your single issue.


Well you are obviously correct that I'm not a Marxist-Leninist. I am however a class war anarchist, a syndicalist, and consider myself a communist. I do not concentrate on a single issue, but strive for ultimate liberation of all workers. This means among other things that I cannot ignore homophobia in society, much less amongst the ranks of supposed communists and workerists.



I don't know what organization you belong to and you can call yourself anything you desire, but your posts would imply that you put the gay rights movement above the workers movement and class solidarity.

While it is probably true that most homosexuals are in the working class, a large number are not, and are class enemies. The gay rights movement does not (and cannot) teach its followers the basics of class struggle precisely because of this contradiction.


There is a link in my signature. The SAC is a syndicalist fighting union, which organises workers regardless of branch both at work and at home in class struggle, against the bosses. It is also feminist, and very much opposed to homophobia. I do not belong to any 'cross-class' gay rights organisations, even though I do support progressive actions and demands of such.

Also, about bourgeois gay people; they aren't the victims of hate crimes and homophobic violence, as they are sheltered from that by their wealth. It is for the working class homosexuals that the gay rights struggle really matters.


By not taking a Marxist-Leninist approach and uniting workers under the Communist banner you may win concessions under the capitalist system for your single issue cause, but you are not furthering the demise of the capitalist system despite your illusions to the contrary

How am I not striving to unite the workers? I'm excluding the homophobes, sure -- but you are de facto excluding the homosexuals, who'll hardly rush into your arms when you keep implying that they better stay in the closet to avoid hate crimes, that they shouldn't actively fight for sexual equality in their every day lives, etc.

How are the homophobes more important for the struggle than the homosexuals, so that you choose them?


Getting defensive and angry at me and others because we disagree with you is not conducive to this (or any other) discussion. I realize I am not going to convince you of anything. I am just stating my opinion.


I'm hardly being defensive, on the contrary I'm on the offensive against your positions. That's what we do on discussion forums like this.

You are however correct that your ignorance towards the suffering of gay workers does anger me.