Why is Capitalism? - better than Socialism?

[Smoking Frog II]

:P Why is Capitalism better than Socialism?
Cappies? If you're so fecking great, tell us why

[American Kid]

Personal freedoms, basically.

Hey, I'm for a limited form of socialism, in regard to health care and education. But then where does it stop? Soon the gov doesn't just want to regulate that, but also where you work, how much you work, then it's what you do after work, what you wear, what books you read, what movies you see, ect, ect..........

Then, brrrr, before you know it, you've got communism.

-AK

(lol, am I the only "cappie" left, btw?? I mean there's MaxB, but he seems to be in a class all his own...) anyway.....

[MJM]

Soon the gov doesn't just want to regulate that, but also where you work, how much you work, then it's what you do after work, what you wear, what books you read, what movies you see


Show us how the capis don't already do this AK.

Where you work is largely a result of your race or class in capitalism. How many poor black guys wind up being ceos?

How much you work- 5-10% unemployment, self explanitory really.

What you wear- well this is just being silly really everyone knows these are just rampant stereotypes fed to you by your media.

What books you read. If you can't get it published no-one will read it- believe me there's plenty of leftist literature thats no longer published.

What movies you see- more paranoia unfortunately.


These personal freedoms you speak of are only given to the rich or those who have favour within society. Perfect examples are of a racial nature, arab hating, black hating, jew hating etc. done many times by capitalist government forces ie. police.
Without equality there can be no freedom, inequality implies restrictions on freedom for some and less or none for others.
Do you/we live in an equal society?

[American Kid]

The poor black guys who work their asses off and hit the books become ceos.

But who said being a ceo is such a great job anyway? Why are you basing success on who becomes a ceo? Probably less than one percent of the people born today become ceos. Who the fuck cares? And if it's power you mean, well that's beside the point. If achieving power in one's life is comparable to how much they achieve in a corporate sense, I think it's shit. Maybe we're discussing on too wide a canvas here, but anyway.......

And where I work has nothing to do with my race or class. Nor does it for anyone else who's ever worked there.

I work where I work because my friend Nick got me the job. Period.

Pol pot didn't prerequisite black pajamas for his "parties out in the fields"? Okay, maybe that's an extreme example, and I understand in your form of socialism it wouldn't be so oppresive. I do. But what I'm saying is: I don't trust it. I don't think it stops there. I think it goes even further, intruding even deeper into people's lives, and that scares the shit out me.

I don't want to hear about Leftists not getting published. If your brilliant, they'll publish anything. Hell, how many copies of "Stupid White Men" did Michael Moore sell, I wonder........?

And as far as the movies thing goes.........well, that's not paranioa. Look at China, Cuba, North Korea, USSR, I know, I know, not true communism, Romania, Viet Nam, Cambodia.......

And do you live here? I wonder.........Hmm...I don't think you do. If so, well then I don't want to visit your nieghborhood. Jesus. I know no one I KNOW is either: black hating, jew hating, ect, ect........and I'm WHITE!!!!

DUN!!!!!! DUN!!!!!! DUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but anyways, your turn............
-AK

[GUTB]

===
The poor black guys who work their asses off and hit the books become ceos.
===

Ah yes, everyone likes to trot out the Horatio Alger rags-to-rcihess silliness.

Name one black person who "hit the books" to become a CEO of any company larger than one employee. Just one will do -- I would like to do some research on this person.

In any case, you too will let go of that security blanket when you enter working society and have to make a living for yourself. Than you will understand what the class struggle is all about. You will learn that the rich belong to a club you are not invited to.

[MJM]

The CEO point was to highlight that black guys rarely become the boss. So they wind up working where capitalists wants them to. You don't seriously believe that blacks and whites have the same opportunities do you?

If your friend nick got you the job, then it's a result of your social stature isn't it? He's working class like yourself, or is he a capitalist?
I imagine he's working class and this is a clear demonstration of what I'm talking about.

The workers do what they do not from choice but from necessity, how many want to work for the assholes they have for bosses? Here you see not many people do what they want to do with their lives.




Again show me how the capis don't do what you said already.



Soon the gov doesn't just want to regulate that, but also where you work, how much you work, then it's what you do after work, what you wear, what books you read, what movies you see

[nextamericanrev]

hey american kid....
i am american...and live in america texas to be exact probably one of the most conservative states in the us....and yes race discrimination is a major factor with jobs...you said that black man that hits the books will go on to get a good job...well unfortunatley due to the greedy capitalist nature of our govnt the schools that those of a lower class go to arent funded nearly as much as those in upper class neigbourhoods...and instead of improving them the govnt spends money on things that arent important.....

[mentalbunny]

I guess in some ways capitalism is freer (eg you can become stinking rich) but it really isn't fair on those who don't have the money. Capitalism also seems to be more stabel, it's really hard ot get rid of it, but so easy to revert to it (this doesn't mean it's better, just easier).

[Jaha]

in a perfect communism (as i see it) the only restrictions are on extreme power.

in a communism the commune must rule, not be ruled.

AK- you took 1984 by orwell too seriously.

[Wenty]

really 1984 is by orwell? you dont say!!!

[Commissar Dawkovich]

but it really isn't fair on those who don't have the money

It isn't 'fair' on those who don't have the intellectual etc... competence. Even then, the wealth will trickle down and manifest itself in Tax cuts etc... for all. This will lead to an increased standard of living for all

(Edited by Commissar Dawkovich at 11:47 pm on Oct. 21, 2002)

[American Kid]

*ahem*

Christ on the cross, I understand racism is everwhere. I'm not STUPID. But I also understand that racism was alive and prevelant long before the first industrialist opened his first factory, or the constitution was signed for that matter.

Are people discriminated against? Of course they are. For being black? Absolutely. Many, many, many other reasons too. But that won't stop with the abolishment of "free enterprise." I understand what "true communism is, Jaha. But that's the flaw of it, "true communism" as admirably righteous an ideal as it is, can never succeed, firstly, because people will ALWAYS discriminate.

That's, in my opinion, one of the major flaws of communism, as it does, even in it's "true" form, advocate a certain amount of "crowd control."

There are people in this world, all around the world, tens of millions of them, who are racist in some way. Many, many millions more who are even "prejudice." What would true communism do with these people?

I'm being perfectly serious. I understand in true communism there's no state, there's no racial or class differentials, but HOW DO YOU GET TO THAT POINT? How do you CHANGE people, and how they feel, and how they think???

Well many have thought they had this answer. There names are Pot, and Stalin, and Lenin, and Castro, and Tung, and Coursecau, ect......

But those guys weren't true communists, were they? Well then who is? And when are you going to get it right? And when are you going to realize the definition of insanity and cut back a bit?

definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over, but expecting different results.

And this, in no way, should read as a defeatist's "apology" and resignation to the evils of racism. I'm not trying to explain it away as one of life's daily hurdles which should be ignored in spite of it's proliference. Not at all. But I am saying is a step backward would be to try to TELL people what to think or feel. Toward others.

It's not the, or "a", government's place to step in and act when the people are prejudice. I mean, it is to a degree when violence is involved, absolutely, but not otherwise. That's upon the INDIVIDUAL. And personally, I do everything I CAN, to not be a racist, dick-head prick everyday of my life.

And that is all that anyone can, or has the RIGHT to, do.

-AK

(never read 1984. and I don't ever plan to. fuck it)

[American Kid]

Also, GUTB (sp?), I AM in working society.

lol, what do you think I am, rich?????

Dude, I'm probably poorer than you are. And to MJM, not to get too, "nah, nah, nah-nah-nah!!", but show me how cappies "don't"?

-AK

[GUTB]

Communism is the abolition of class society, from which all inequality arises.

Class society is abolished by the productive class seizing all economic power into their own hands, leading to a brief period of dictatorship by the proletariat in which elements of the class system are destroyed and democratic worker's systems are put in their place.

Once this is fully achieved, the final victory of socialism will come about. Everyone is a worker and everyone works. No one is socially superior to anyone else.

After a time of full socialism, the state itself will wither away and money will lose it's intrinsic value to men. At this future stage of super-development and super-wealth, the differences between men become truly insignificant. And thus, the final victory of Communism will occur. How long this will take -- not even Marx knew. It will take a long time, but as Marx also pointed out, humanity is certainly ready to begin the road to it.

Marxism knows that human beings strive for personal enrichment -- to get more than what he has. This is why there is exploitation. The core of Marxist revolution is the strengthening of everyone's material position -- at the expense of the exploiters, of course.

[American Kid]

You have to understand....................I UNDERSTAND what communism is. I do. I really, really do.

I've read Marx. I'm familiar with Engels. You're not talking to some biased, ignorant "cappie" here. I'm someone who has read into hard-line leftist ideaology with an open mind and DOESN'T BUY IT.

HOW are you going to achieve this utopia????? You realize the "people" are not going to be too thrilled when the politburo starts going door to door, informing everyone their land is no longer THEIRS.

Again, I'm being perfectly serious. Don't write like you're copying out of a text book like you just did above ^^^^^^^^^^^ talk in real life circumstances.

Just HOW are you going to make this work. And WHAT ARE you going to do when the MAJORITY of people don't go along????
-AK

[American Kid]

<------------------ Well, that one was my fourth star.

Kids, irrahgahdless of our disagreements, SALUTE YOUR SUPERIOR OFFICER.

-Commandant American Kid

(Edited by American Kid at 4:09 am on Oct. 22, 2002)

[GUTB]

Quote: from American Kid on 4:06 am on Oct. 22, 2002
HOW are you going to achieve this utopia????? You realize the "people" are not going to be too thrilled when the politburo starts going door to door, informing everyone their land is no longer THEIRS.

Just HOW are you going to make this work. And WHAT ARE you going to do when the MAJORITY of people don't go along????
-AK


No one owns land as it is, so I fail to see how this will change -- except, maybe people will stop having to pay rent for it! Or maybe not. The point is that the disposition fo the land will be dealt with democraticaly, not by the command of the plutocracy or an autocratic police state.

If the majority of working people do not want revolution, than the revolution cannot happen. When the masses of workers want change, it is the job of Communists to be there to provide a way forward through reaction into a better future, for the material interests of the workers themselves. Communism is not utopian -- believing that the masses of workers will suddenly become such overnight is what is utopian.

[American Kid]

And so my friend (I mean that sincerely; my "battling" days here are over) this is where you and I differ.

You will always be there waiting for the pieces to fall, and I will forever be trying to keep them up.

After all, there's no dust to sweep if there's no mess to begin with, is there?

(in other words: you wait for the people to become energized with unrest; I will be content if they NEVER DO at all. As I think they won't)

-AK

[MJM]

Ak I thought I explained how the capis do this already in this part of my first post.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Where you work is largely a result of your race or class in capitalism. How many poor black guys wind up being ceos?
check
How much you work- 5-10% unemployment, self explanitory really.
check
What you wear- well this is just being silly really everyone knows these are just rampant stereotypes fed to you by your media.
mu
What books you read. If you can't get it published no-one will read it- believe me there's plenty of leftist literature thats no longer published.
check
What movies you see- more paranoia unfortunately.
mu
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

[LeninCCCP]

Quote: from American Kid on 8:06 pm on Oct. 21, 2002
Just HOW are you going to make this work. And WHAT ARE you going to do when the MAJORITY of people don't go along????
-AK

Kill them because they dont want to be part of utopia or lose their belief in their god so let them go on to heavan hell or whatever im sure they'll have a better time there.

[American Kid]

That's the answer I was baiting for.

I was wondering who the first idiot was going to be to bite.
-AK

[canikickit]

Idiot indeed.


Kill them because they dont want to be part of utopia or lose their belief in their god so let them go on to heavan hell or whatever im sure they'll have a better time there

You are an extrme moron.
You are part of the reason socialism gets a bad rap.

AK, you are aware of the true aim of most of the intelligent people here, and their good intentions. You should become part of the good intentions. By advocating socialism you fight against the evils of capitalism.

[Phineas]

Couldn't one make the argument that advocating capitalism is a way of combatting the evils of extreme socialism?

Listen. Socialists. Please, for my sake and the sake of everyone else who would love to buy your theories, point to a successful nation-state that has been built or supported by true socialism/communism. Where are they? Where is a prosperous socialist country that can maintain a decent state of living without resorting to absurdly confiscatory taxation or running massive deficits?

They don't exist.

For all it's flaws (and there is certainly no lack of them) free market capitalism generally provides equality of opportunity. Socialism/communism seeks to provide equality of result. The distinction is crucial, because all people are not equal. Say it with me. Some individuals are smarter, stronger, more ambitious, etc than others. It has nothing whatsoever to do with race, gender, or religion. The fact is, in a truly free society some individuals will be more successful than others because they're smarter and work harder. The free market permits this, socialism stymies it.

Why is capitalism better, as the title of the thread asks? It accepts human nature as imperfect and can thrive in spite of our worst impulses. Socialism doesn't have a chance until the day everyone on earth wakes up and decides that his neighbor's welfare is as important as that of his own family. Ain't gonna happen guys.

I don't want to be misunderstood. I believe in universal education, and a social safety net that allows folks in hard times to survive. Not to prosper and grow comfortable, but to at least survive until they can do something about their own situation. What I don't believe in is any ideology that seeks to deny the very biological drives that have led to our evolution as intelligent human beings.

(Edited by Phineas at 1:18 pm on Oct. 24, 2002)


(Edited by Phineas at 9:25 pm on Oct. 24, 2002)

[Sovietsky Souyuz]

Cuba ?

[Jaha]

AK, LeninCCCP speaks only for himself.

Phineas, some arguement. you show me one (1), only one capitalist nation where greed does not drive it. show me one where oppression is not essential to its survival. show me one where the capitalist system does not kill.

please, say the US. i have a long list waiting that might open your eyes.

[Mazdak]

Goddammit get it through your tiny heads and into your thick skulls. No country ever claimed to be communist. They claimed to be goddamn socialist.

AK- who cares if a few greedy bastards dont like the idea of an equal world or a world without poverty? If they don't like it, then they get the privilege of not having to live in it. "Death solves everything, no man, no problem."

LeninCCCP, don't back down. I agree 100%. If they dont like it, they can either keep their mouths shut or be silenced permanently. Only a complete degenerate would choose todays capitalism over a full fledged COMMUNIST state(not socialist).

[Phineas]

Quote: from Jaha on 6:35 pm on Oct. 24, 2002
AK, LeninCCCP speaks only for himself.

Phineas, some arguement. you show me one (1), only one capitalist nation where greed does not drive it. show me one where oppression is not essential to its survival. show me one where the capitalist system does not kill.

please, say the US. i have a long list waiting that might open your eyes.

That's not an answer. In fact, that's called dodging the question.

I'll indulge you anyway. There are no societies where oppression and/or killing do not occur. I simply posit that the victims of Stalin's purges and several million starving North Koreans nourished only by images of tanks and ballistic missiles may beg to differ with the comfortable socialists of Europe and the U.S. All capitalist countries are driven by greed. The key is to recognize this as a good thing. I mean that. People can only legitimately be expected to cooperate with one another when they believe that their effort will be rewarded with a greater gain. This is life.

Why is it so difficult for diehard socialists to understand that people are not born with some noble community spirit that would make everything all right if only some "glorious leader" or "dear comrade" would awaken it?

Some people will always be in a miserable state. The goal of everyone (not just so called 'progressives') should be to insure that steady progress continues to be made. At this point in history, a greater percentage of humankind has enough to eat, access to education and basic health care than ever before. Is socialism responsible? That question can't be answered categorically, but I remain, to put it mildly, doubtful. This broadly happy trend for humanity has been in progress for far longer than anyone has ever known the word communism. And, surprise, surprise, it has accelerated since the demise of the USSR and the promising, if flawed beginning of free-market reform in China.

And Mr. Souyuz, calling Cuban society a success, when its citizens daily risk life and limb to escape is a shameful joke. Where would you rather live?


(Edited by Phineas at 9:23 pm on Oct. 24, 2002)


(Edited by Phineas at 9:27 pm on Oct. 24, 2002)

[Guest]

Quote: from Sovietsky Souyuz on 10:46 pm on Oct. 24, 2002
Cuba ?



Cuba is a third world nation full of poverty and class divisions. It is not a successful nation.

[American Kid]

I know, Jaha.
-AK