your activism as a consumer. what do you do? fair trade, organic, etc

[Ken]

does your town have fair trade, do you buy fair trade, do you shop at organic markets, do you boycott products from china/thailand or other developing nations, do you grow your own vegetables?

money is at the center of the world's 'democracy'. where you concentrate wealth, you concentrate power. is there any historical example to the contrary?

dont tell me what you want to do or think you should be doing. tell me what you do and what your views are.

this could quite be an epic thread.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Or this could be a shit thread. That's my bet. Why would anyone want to boycott the developing world? What's the fuck is wrong with those people?

[piet11111]

i buy the cheapest goods i can because i do not have the money to waste on pointless "consumer activism"

do you realize that this whole buying organic is just a label that makes big business more money ?
fair trade ? maybe how can anyone truly know ? not that i have the money to spend if i want to be able to save up some.

[Wake Up]

I tend to buy from independent shops. Therefore supporting the people brave enough to try and make their own way in life.

Fair trade: Dn't look out for it, but I use fair trade as a decider on what item to get sometimes.

Organic is a sham. Ethic's is an easy sell, and people accept it without second thought.

I like to buy free range meat as morality aside it tastes so much better than the production line meat in supermarkets.

[Wanted Man]

I don't do much. I go to the supermarket that's just around the corner, and I buy what I need and what I can afford. It would be nice if I had the time and money to make conscious choices, but I don't. I also don't think that such a thing is necessary to be anti-capitalist.

[Kami]

I buy what I can afford. Not all of us have the option to put much more into process than that.

[Zurdito]

I buy what I can afford. Not all of us have the option to put much more into process than that.

This is one of the reasons why consumer activism doesn't work, only those with money have the vote, and yet, these sectors are the ones with least desire to change anything.

which is the oppsoite of marxism: producer activism, where those who make the goods are empowered due to that role, regardless of cash in pocket.

[Jazzratt]

I tend to buy from independent shops. Therefore supporting the people brave enough to try and make their own way in life.

Those people are called the petit-bourgeoisie.

I buy what's cheap so that I have money to fall back on if I lose my job. That's some activism right there.

[Vanguard1917]

'Ethical consumerism' is part of a bourgeois and middle class fantasy which holds that it's possible to bring about meaningful change through small shifts in one's lifestyle. It flatters them and makes them feel better about themselves. There's also the snobbery issue: the middle class or bourgeois household which shops 'ethically' is showing that it is cultured and refined - setting themselves apart from the vulgar tastes of the proletarians and the nouveau riche.

The great irony is that, while middle class ethical shoppers like to brand and look down on the masses as being obsessed with consumption, it is actually these ethical shoppers themselves who are the ones attaching such undue significance to consumption. Working class people tend to view consumption in relatively very rational terms, and historically they have recognised that it is in the realm of production that fights for real change can be carried out. As consumers, people are atomised and passive. As producers there's scope for unity and concrete action. But that's not really something which interests the middle class consumerist crusader, who would rather lecture people about their shopping habits and moralise with people about their everyday lives.

We also have to understand that consumerist politics are rooted in ruling class ideology. Supporters of bourgeois democracy like to argue that capitalism provides each individual with the power to make significant decisions based on what they put into their shopping trolleys. Indeed, this is one of their central arguments against 'communism', which they see as the state dictating production and consumption.

The whole idea that we can 'vote with our wallets' in capitalist societies - i.e. that we can make siginificant social and economic decisions through how and what we buy - has historically played a key role in rationalising the capitalist market economy.

Aside from the fact that 'fair trade' schemes do not do anything to actually alleviate poverty and promote development, we should also point out that these schemes come with conditions attached. 'Fair trade' is defined by its Western creditors as anti-GM, anti-pesticides, and pro-'sustainable development' - the latter being an environmentalist codeword for small-scale and localised production.

Is this really in the interests of the developing world? Mainstream Western political opinion seems to think that it is, so it seeks to impose its prejudices upon the rest of the world.

In my opinion, developing countries need rapid and large-scale industrial development, along with the freedom to determine their own economic and social policies free from Western meddling, in order to raise living standards to - at the bare minimum - those which many of us in the West currently enjoy.

How many of our ethical middle class 'fair trade' latte drinkers in the West would support this? Judging by their petty prejudices, they would probably tremble at the idea.

Having said all that, there is one commodity which the bourgeois consumerist activists are not so keen on people boycotting, thus revealing their true class prejudices and conservatism. That commodity is labour power, the one commodity which can be boycotted with significant effect.

[Holden Caulfield]

Those people are called the petit-bourgeoisie.

I buy what's cheap so that I have money to fall back on if I lose my job. That's some activism right there.

i can just see him now with his "i'm not a plastic bag" erm bag,
what this fashionable slogan really means is "i'm a pretentious wanker"

and i hate bobo's (bohemian bourgosie) who ruin fashion and music by creating scenes and flooding money into it, they shop 'fairtrade' and 'organic' as it costs more and it makes them feel superior they give not one fuck,

[Post-Something]

this could quite be an epic thread.


THIS COULD BE QUITE AN EPIC RESPONSE.

I buy what I can afford. Tesco value usually wins tbh. 15p lemonade gets my vote. I used to buy Fair trade, but I can't afford it anymore, and to be blunt, only the chocolate tastes any good.


(bohemian bourgosie)

Wtf is this shit? I've never heard of these guys, but a quick google search tells me they're fat, pompous arty hedonists; amirite???

[Lord Testicles]

I don't buy fair trade and I don't buy organic. I buy what I can afford.

[Holden Caulfield]

Wtf is this shit? I've never heard of these guys, but a quick google search tells me they're fat, pompous arty hedonists; amirite???


yes, bobo is my favourite of insults, i hate them all,
the pricks stick money into every good mainstream culture movement and kill it, see 'retro' clothing,

[AutomaticMan]

I buy fair trade, organic and local whenever I can. I also obviously don't buy stuff tested on animals, or containing animal products, or products made by certain companies, like P&G, Unilever etc, that are notorious for animal exploitation, environmental degradation, supporting human rights abuses etc.

But IMO the most important consumer activism I do is to try and not buy stuff, where possible. But the above is the criteria for when I do buy something.

[Dros]

[SIZE=4]does your town have fair trade,

Don't know, don't care.


do you buy fair trade,

No.


do you shop at organic markets,

No.


do you boycott products from china/thailand or other developing nations,

No.


do you grow your own vegetables?

No.


dont tell me what you want to do or think you should be doing. tell me what you do and what your views are.

I am a revolutionary Communist and my work centers around building the vanguard party of the working class.

[Wake Up]

Those people are called the petit-bourgeoisie.


I understand this.

However supporting a petit-bourgeoisie over a pure bourgeois corporation is a lesser of 2 evils.

Actually the overriding factor is the cost, but I digress.


i can just see him now with his "i'm not a plastic bag" erm bag,
what this fashionable slogan really means is "i'm a pretentious wanker"


Obviously.

[Justin CF]

I'm vegan. Besides the obvious effect on the factory farm industry, this also good for the environment and (potentially) people in third world countries.

I really don't have the ability to support fair trade shops. There is one in okay walking distance, but I can't afford what they're selling. I bought a pair of shoes from No Sweat once, but that's about it.

As for organic food, I know it's probably healthy (even that's not what this thread is about), and I know that it's probably good for the environment, but I can't really afford it. Also, I definitely don't think that organic food is feasible on a global level. The green revolution couldn't have happened if people were caught up on not using pesticides, and I honestly think that feeding the third world is more important than keeping a check on pesticide use.

[Vanguard1917]

I'm vegan. Besides the obvious effect on the factory farm industry, this also good for the environment and (potentially) people in third world countries.



Not in the slightest. In reality, 'third world' countries need far better access to the best modern food production methods currently available (e.g. factory farms and biotechnology) so that they can provide their populations with an abundant supply of food.

By campaigning against such production methods, environmentalism (the current ideology of capitalism) actually helps hold back progress in the developing world.



As for organic food, I know it's probably healthy (even that's not what this thread is about), and I know that it's probably good for the environment, but I can't really afford it.


There is a reason why most people can't afford organic food and posh 'fair trade' products: such products exist primary to satisfy the snotty shopping demands of the well-off and the super rich.

[Jazzratt]

I understand this.

However supporting a petit-bourgeoisie over a pure bourgeois corporation is a lesser of 2 evils.

Actually the overriding factor is the cost, but I digress.

No, as far as a worker is concerned the 2 are the same evil. It's also cheaper to buy from big corporations because they can mass produce shit cheaply.

[chimx]

I think that the fact of the matter is that consumer boycotts are largely ineffective at making any sort of significant dent on a national level. They may keep your local organic food store open, but that's about it.

I used to work in an organic food store and it was probably one of the most anti-worker jobs I've ever had. They treated their employees terribly, we were underpaid with no benefits and there were regular firings if people did the smallest thing wrong.

[Justin CF]

Not in the slightest. In reality, 'third world' countries need far better access to the best modern food production methods currently available (e.g. factory farms and biotechnology) so that they can provide their populations with an abundant supply of food.I can't post links yet (still a newbie), so I can't actually back up what I'm saying with evidence. The evidence is, however, out there. A couple google searches and you'll be on the right track.

Now then, cows eat up way more food than they produce. This means that we are feeding far less people than we could be if we were to subsist off of vegetarian/vegan diets rather than diets which rely heavily on meat products.

Clearly, switching over right this instant won't change anything, which is why I said that veganism has the potential help the third world.


By campaigning against such production methods, environmentalism (the current ideology of capitalism) actually helps hold back progress in the developing world.To be fair, environmentalism is a response to the very real threat of global warming. If global warming kicks in hard enough, everyone is fucked. Proletariat or bourgeoisie, it doesn't matter.


There is a reason why most people can't afford organic food and posh 'fair trade' products: such products exist primary to satisfy the snotty shopping demands of the well-off and the super rich.Fair trade stuff has to cost more so that the workers can be payed more! This might not be why most fair trade stuff is currently expensive, but it should.

I couldn't support it either way, though.

[Vanguard1917]

Now then, cows eat up way more food than they produce. This means that we are feeding far less people than we could be if we were to subsist off of vegetarian/vegan diets rather than diets which rely heavily on meat products.



The point is, the developing world could have an abundant supply of both grain and meat if it had access to the advanced methods of food production which certain campaigners in the West wish to deny it access to.



To be fair, environmentalism is a response to the very real threat of global warming. If global warming kicks in hard enough, everyone is fucked. Proletariat or bourgeoisie, it doesn't matter.



It's one thing acknowledging that climates are getting warmer; it's something wholly different advocating the reactionary anti-development, anti-progress policies which the environmental movement advocates.

[Mather]

'Consumer activism' is a complete waste of time and an exercise in futility as a way of trying to change anything.

Like many others have said, it is limited in that it appeals to those who can afford it, thus the very people who do 'consumer activism' are the people least likely to change the system (ie; capitalism) that they are doing well out of.

What is destroying agricultural industries the world over, such as 'free' trade agreements, privatisation, cutbacks or the elimination of subsidies and the protection of markets in the third world, these issues are too big and entrenched to be overcome by something as simplistic as 'consumer activism'.

As with all problems under capitalism, social revolution and working class liberation is the only answer.

[gla22]

As with all problems under capitalism, social revolution and working class liberation is the only answer.
Revolution is the only way to make real change. Lifestylism is bullshit.

[Justin CF]

Revolution is the only way to make real change.Revolution is probably the best way to make change, but not the only one.


Lifestylism is bullshit.I've never heard the term "lifestylism" before, so I looked it up. I couldn't find a clear definition, but from my understanding lifestylism seems to be the idea that the day-to-day decisions we make in our person lives can somehow count as activism. In most cases, this is completely idiotic. But when it comes to the economy, it's not quite as entirely messed up.

This is because if enough people are willing to change their decisions in the grocery store to reflect their political views, they could actually destroy entire industries. Obviously, one person making this decision doesn't matter, but if enough do it might change something. If you're willing to vote, I don't see why you wouldn't do this, too.

[Ken]

thank you all for your replies!


'Ethical consumerism' is part of a bourgeois and middle class fantasy which holds that it's possible to bring about meaningful change through small shifts in one's lifestyle. It flatters them and makes them feel better about themselves. There's also the snobbery issue: the middle class or bourgeois household which shops 'ethically' is showing that it is cultured and refined - setting themselves apart from the vulgar tastes of the proletarians and the nouveau riche.

your first paragraph conveniently sums up your whole post. i have however, heard this all before. what i havent heard is a critical argument against fair trade as a tool to relieving poverty however small that relief may be. all you've said has belittled fair trade and class-labelled its consumers(such a marxist thing to do heh) as ostentatious middle-class snobbery dipshits, pedantically missing the kind of whole point of fair trade-paying the workers a proper wage.


Aside from the fact that 'fair trade' schemes do not do anything to actually alleviate poverty and promote development, we should also point out that these schemes come with conditions attached anti-GM, anti-pesticides, and pro-'sustainable development' - the latter being an environmentalist codeword for small-scale and localised production.

Is this really in the interests of the developing world?

would you like to be liberated from your shitty polluted rice field prison? it seems not.

it seems as though you think this 'small-scale and localised production.' undermines the whole kind of getting paid properly and not dying, and that kind of stuff.

:confused:

funnily enough anyway i have never actually met one of these-as later described as-petit-bourgeoisie. in fact i have never met anyone i could label booshwah supporting fair trade. the local socialist organisation is the bastion of fair trade, and its the leftists always the first to advocate it, okay, so granted this is a leftist forum, but still, supporters of fair trade i have met are the knowledgeable, activist kinds.


I buy fair trade, organic and local whenever I can. I also obviously don't buy stuff tested on animals, or containing animal products, or products made by certain companies, like P&G, Unilever etc, that are notorious for animal exploitation, environmental degradation, supporting human rights abuses etc.

But IMO the most important consumer activism I do is to try and not buy stuff, where possible. But the above is the criteria for when I do buy something.

may i ask, are you also a freegan? this line of thinking is synonymous with anarchy, veganism, and anti-consumerism.

not buy stuff
as to not support the big corporations? this is the school of thought i am currently subscribed to.

so as for myself, i have bought fair trade before and previously frequented a fair trade coffee shop(no deviation in cost, tasted better, and there was a cool guy with dreads!1!!!111) but im not buying fair trade at the moment, aside from vegan chocolate, and have yet to make a decision.

[communard resolution]

I buy what I can afford too, which is usually bog standard supermarket fare. I wish fair trade was cheaper cause I don't think it's such a bad idea at all even if it won't bring down capitalism. I know what you mean in regards to snobism, but you know, you don't have to shout it from the rooftops.

I've cut out on eating meat because I can't afford free range meat & I won't buy the stuff from farms where animals are held in appalling conditions. Egoistic reasons too: if the animals stuffer their entire lives, you can bet your arse their meat isn't good for you.

I avoid outlets such as Mc Donald's because I know that they treat their employees like shit. If that doesn't change their situation: my politics are not limited to boycotting certain companies, and if my unwillingness to throw money at such shitholes is purely emotional and ultimately futile, so be it. I hate everything companies such as Mc Donald's do and everything they stand for, and I will not eat in there, period.
.

EDIT: I am not a middle-class liberal and do not have to prove it through some sort of inverted snobism.

[Leo]

Moved to learning, this has got nothing to do with politics at all.

[Ken]

I avoid outlets such as Mc Donald's because I know that they treat their employees like shit. If that doesn't change their situation: my politics are not limited to boycotting certain companies, and if my unwillingness to throw money at such shitholes is purely emotional and ultimately futile, so be it. I hate everything companies such as Mc Donald's do and everything they stand for, and I will not eat in there, period.


thats cool. i gave up fast food as my 'new years resolution' silly thing, and havent eaten any of it this year. i just got fed up of eating that addictive shit, especially Opporto's(a fast food chain). i used to eat it twice a day when i had a full time job. fuck that. i really needed to reach the lowest of lows, though. where i felt as though i couldnt give it up. i gave up meat a few months into the year, it wasnt so hard. now i am completely vegan. the hardest thing was cheese. im 18 :) and always learning. i want to grow my own vegetables but due to my living arrangements unfortunately i cant do that. i started this thread just to see if there was any truth in some theroies i have read of the third world situation resolving itself in time through the west's consumerism.

[communard resolution]

Ken,

you know what I think would be a good idea? If every fair trade product came with an info leaflet saying something to the avail of "thanks for helping the workers over in such-and-such to get a decent wage. We're a socialist group and we'd like to point out that in order to eliminate the conditions in which unfair trade is possible, we need to do much more than just buy certain products." Obviously much better worded than this. And then maybe some contacts and links to socialist websites.

This way, even the middle-class liberals will be made aware that buying fair trade is good but will not eliminate the world's problems. Maybe a lot of them would become revolutionary activists in the end? It wouldn't hurt to try.

[Leo]

i want to grow my own vegetables but due to my living arrangements unfortunately i cant do that.

Trust me lad, agricultural work is not fun in any way.

[trickxiii]

Patriots Don't Shop At Wal-mart

[PRC-UTE]

Patriots Don't Shop At Wal-mart

Fortunately you won't find patriots here.

[trickxiii]

Fortunately you won't find patriots here.

pa·tri·ot
–noun 1.a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion. 2.a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, esp. of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.

I think if you asked around you'd find the majority of people are here discussing their ideologies because they are patriots and because they are concerned with the direction of their country and the corruption of the interests at the core of their so called "democracies."

[R_P_A_S]

This is one of the reasons why consumer activism doesn't work, only those with money have the vote, and yet, these sectors are the ones with least desire to change anything.

which is the oppsoite of marxism: producer activism, where those who make the goods are empowered due to that role, regardless of cash in pocket.

GREAT FUCKING LINE my friend!

[R_P_A_S]

This has been the issue for me lately. conscious consumerism. It is more expensive and these kinds of shops are in up scale areas where the more rich can afford to buy "consciousness" and "status" It's fucking sad really. It really is because It seems that America, at least this is where I live.. they have created an entire new market under the "green" and "morality, ethically correct" ploy that they have turned Fair Trade and Organic farming into. It's sad because with out a label. with out knowing about it I used to shop organic and fair trade goods. The town i grew up in Mexico just worked that way. thats how it was set up. But not its a label with a price hike.

However when I shop I do try to look for the most natural foods as possible. Im not going to be a fucking drone and just buy what they put in my face cus is cheap. read the label on some of the conventional foods.. fuck that. everywhere i go and turn they want me to crave more of the shitty food, get fat and die of heart disease! no thanks.

[Lost In Translation]

does your town have fair trade, do you buy fair trade, do you shop at organic markets, do you boycott products from china/thailand or other developing nations, do you grow your own vegetables?

money is at the center of the world's 'democracy'. where you concentrate wealth, you concentrate power. is there any historical example to the contrary?

dont tell me what you want to do or think you should be doing. tell me what you do and what your views are.

this could quite be an epic thread.

First of all, I live in a city where sunshine is a premium, and 250 days of the year are rain, or sun-less. That defeats any hope of growing vegetables.

Second of all, I do occasionally shop at organic food stores, but not often.

Thirdly, I have no problem buying products made in China, or any other developing country. It's hardly my fault that these developing countries can outwork, outproduce, and outsell the western manufacturers. That's how the world as we know it runs. It's a competition. All these people are whining because their government is not doing enough to help them keep their jobs. As a leftist, when I see huge exporters that happen to be developing countries beat the capitalists at their own game, I'm thrilled. If these big companies have to outsource their jobs, they have to. That's business.

[communard resolution]

One thing I can't stand about many leftists (not only in this particular thread) is their unwillingness to do anything about anything if revolution is not the immediate result.

I once posted a thread about neo-nazi violence in Russia. Reply? "Those people will be dealt with after the revolution". Yeah, tell the gypsy family whose 9 year old kid was stabbed to wait for the revolution before anything is done about nazi violence.

Another thread someone else posted dealt with gay liberation in Russia: not worthy of our support, according to some, because not aiming to bring about the revolution.

Same with this thread: some people just don't give a fuck whether 'third world' workers receive a wage they can live off or not, and direct attempts to assure a fair wage are sneered at because apparently that's just liberal, reformist bullshit designed to make the middle-class consumer feel a bit better. One poster says he couldn't care less about the workers' "whining" about their jobs being outsourced and even has the cheek to state he feels that way "as a leftist".

What I would like to see more is solidarity with our fellow workers - whether in Russia, South America, or elsewhere - and a willingness to help them RIGHT NOW if they're in a particularly crappy situation. I agree that a socialist revolution must be the long-term objective, but how about combining the two: political work for the revolution, as well as pragmatic measures to help those in need of our help NOW? It's a shame to think that liberals do so much to help while we just sit there debating the differences between the various denominations of Marxism and anarchism.

[Ken]

Trust me lad, agricultural work is not fun in any way.

are you serious?

seriously who hasnt dreampt of dancing naked around peach trees lieing on a wooden reclined beachchair being hand-fed grapes by a gratuitous bluehaired mermaid on a greek isle with a leaf for underwear.


It's hardly my fault that these developing countries can outwork, outproduce, and outsell the western manufacturers. That's how the world as we know it runs. It's a competition. All these people are whining because their government is not doing enough to help them keep their jobs. As a leftist, when I see huge exporters that happen to be developing countries beat the capitalists at their own game, I'm thrilled. If these big companies have to outsource their jobs, they have to. That's business.

this post is a joke, but its not funny.

[Dean]

Yes, the self-righteous disinterest of the truly revolutionary. How sad.

[Leo]

Trust me lad, agricultural work is not fun in any way.

are you serious?

Yes, being someone who actually did real agricultural work, that is as a wage-laborer.


seriously who hasnt dreampt of dancing naked around peach trees lieing on a wooden reclined beachchair being hand-fed grapes by a gratuitous bluehaired mermaid on a greek isle with a leaf for underwear.

Probably no one except hippies really dream of anything as such.

[Jazzratt]

seriously who hasnt dreampt of dancing naked around peach trees lieing on a wooden reclined beachchair being hand-fed grapes by a gratuitous bluehaired mermaid on a greek isle with a leaf for underwear.

People who can distinguish between their acid trips and reality, maybe?

And if you think that's what growing food is like, well no wonder you thought Leo was joking. On a similar note I live near plenty of farms that want hands, and it sounds like you'll do it for free...

[zelda]

I shop organic mostly.

[Holden Caulfield]

I shop organic mostly.

bourgeoisie scum

[black magick hustla]

pa·tri·ot
–noun 1.
I think if you asked around you'd find the majority of people are here discussing their ideologies because they are patriots and because they are concerned with the direction of their country and the corruption of the interests at the core of their so called "democracies."

Unfortunately for you, that is not the case.

I am concerned witth the direction of my country insofar as I am concerned with the direction of the world. I don't hold special feelings for my country, and if I hold them is more of vague nostalgic feelings rather than a basis for my politics.

You can't be a patriot and a socialist.

[communard resolution]

Unfortunately for you, that is not the case.

I am concerned witth the direction of my country insofar as I am concerned with the direction of the world. I don't hold special feelings for my country, and if I hold them is more of vague nostalgic feelings rather than a basis for my politics.

You can't be a patriot and a socialist.

I don't hold special feelings for my country either, but maybe that's because I grew up and lived in different countries & never knew which one I really belonged to.

As for patriotism/socialism: didn't Marx say that working class patriotism and bourgeois nationalism were fundamentally different?

Don't mean to troll & maybe it's better to split this or start another thread, it's just I'm not too clear about this.

[Digitalism]

I like to buy free range meat .

I had to look up what "free range" meant, and now I can tell you that this is how we let animals feed themselves in eastern Europe.

[Killer Enigma]

One thing I can't stand about many leftists (not only in this particular thread) is their unwillingness to do anything about anything if revolution is not the immediate result.

I once posted a thread about neo-nazi violence in Russia. Reply? "Those people will be dealt with after the revolution". Yeah, tell the gypsy family whose 9 year old kid was stabbed to wait for the revolution before anything is done about nazi violence.

...

What I would like to see more is solidarity with our fellow workers - whether in Russia, South America, or elsewhere - and a willingness to help them RIGHT NOW if they're in a particularly crappy situation. I agree that a socialist revolution must be the long-term objective, but how about combining the two: political work for the revolution, as well as pragmatic measures to help those in need of our help NOW? It's a shame to think that liberals do so much to help while we just sit there debating the differences between the various denominations of Marxism and anarchism.
You phrased this perfectly. Your post brought something to mind:

A cattle dealer once drove some bulls to the slaughterhouse. And the butcher came night with his sharp knife.


"Let us close ranks and jack up this executioner on our horns," suggested one of the bulls.

"If you please, in what way is the butcher any worse than the dealer who drove us hither with his cudgel?" replied the bulls, who had received their political education in Manuilsky's institute. [The Comintern.]

"But we shall be able to attend to the dealer as well afterwards!"

"Nothing doing," replied the bulls firm in their principles, to the counselor. "You are trying, from the left, to shield our enemies -- you are a social-butcher yourself."


And they refused to close ranks.

[Leo]

As for patriotism/socialism: didn't Marx say that working class patriotism and bourgeois nationalism were fundamentally different?

No, I believe that was Stalin, and Marx said something like "workers have no country".

[Wake Up]

I had to look up what "free range" meant, and now I can tell you that this is how we let animals feed themselves in eastern Europe.

My preference for free range has nothing to do with cruelty towards animals, infact I couldn't care less.
Free range using leads to tastier meat.

[zelda]

We were told to spend our rebate checks as soon as we got them to help our economy. Then, Dave Ramsey suggests we put them in savings accounts, money markets, etc, for our own use.
Which way do we go?

[communard resolution]

My preference for free range has nothing to do with cruelty towards animals, infact I couldn't care less.


Just out of sheer curiosity: why is it that you "couldn't care less" about cruelty towards other species?

[nvm]

As a consumer I don't do activism.
As a producer yes.
Unionization, organizing workers, protesting anti-labour laws etc.

As a consumer under capitalism you can't change shit.
thats for petty bourgeois motherfuckers who have the money to do so.
So fuck them

[mykittyhasaboner]

^^well said comrade, yes FUCK THEM!!

i only buy organic soaps and shampoos, because i dont like the chemical filled stuff. but other than that, i buy what my wage slaved ass can afford.

boycotting is pointless, being a "consumer activist" is a waste of time and money. those organic foods are not even that much better for you anyways, its all still mass produced, genetically altered, and filled with preservatives.

[Raúl Duke]

I don't mind much for "consumer activism" although my family, because of my brain-washed sister, buys/used to buy only organic food (Never felt "revolutionary" buying that...). My father complained about my sister's obsession because it truly was expensive for his budget.

Actually some people tend to idealize much the whole "I buy organic, free trade, vegetarian (which is an absurd choice if chosen to help the environment. So much for saving the world when now the Amazon rain forest is being cut even more rapidly using slash-burn method to make more soy due to increase demand.), or xyz etc I make a big difference" when in reality not much changes, capitalism keeps functioning. Even agricultural work is being called "fun."

Once I get out of the house soon it'll basically be "eat what's available, the necessary amount to stay healthy, and cheap." most of the time (Need to save money for future grad schooling).

[FreeFocus]

I plan on moving within two years and changing whatever parts of my lifestyle remain unchanged, so that entails growing my own food, embracing wholly environmentally-friendly alternatives, etc. Currently I try to avoid, as much as possible, clothes made in sweatshops. I also cut back drastically on bullshit spending/consumerism, like video games. I watch my diet and don't really do the junk food stuff..

People previously in this thread have put forth accurate scathing critiques of the entire illusory "movement" of "organic" and "green" living, and currently these corporations who put this out as the next best thing are in it because, well, it's a fad, not because they care. True organic/green living comes when you grow your own food, reject BS materialism, etc, and usually it involves a strong emphasis on community and community economics. It's not a mistake that all this organic/green stuff is made to be expensive, it leaves poor people to shop at Target and Walmart, buying products from corporations who basically enslave the poor abroad to make the products. Classic tactic..