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View Full Version : Why Socialism Fails - For those that seek the truth !!!!



MaxB
19th October 2002, 18:10
The reasons why ALWAYS Socialism fails !!!

Socialism in North Korea has failed to do as well as capitalism in South Korea. Socialism in East Germany has failed to do as well as capitalism in West Germany. Socialism in Cuba is not doing well. Socialism in China is giving way to a market economy. Socialism in the Soviet Union did not do as well as capitalism in Europe.

Capitalism also SOMETIMES fails. In previous articles, I have discussed some of the reasons why Capitalism sometimes fails.
I have discussed anti-monopoly policies, corruption, rentseeking and dictatorships. Just as we study what can cause capitalism to
fail to avoid making the same mistakes, it is important to study what causes socialism to fail to avoid making the same mistakes. While Capitalism can be corrected, Socialism, by its own nature, will always fail.

Socialism has not been a "total" failure, but it could never compete with a "mixed-economy". Socialist economies have been able to produce commodity products such as steel and concrete. Socialist economies have been able to produce industrial machinery such as cars, but the quality is far below
international standards. For example, compare a Lada and a Honda.

Socialist economies have not been able to produce advanced technological products such as personal computers. Socialist economies have been able to produce some advanced weapons, but capitalist countries have been able to produce advanced weapons and advanced consumer goods. Socialist countries have not been able to produce quality services such as good restaurants.

In spite of producing less, socialist countries have used more labor. In socialist countries, women have worked more and there was no unemployment. Most of this "extra" labor was essentially wasted. If 11 people work in a store where only 10
people are needed, it is more efficient for the extra 11th person to be unemployed and looking for another job where he could be doing something useful.

The Soviet Union was one of the few countries where the population declined in peace time. When I first lived in Kiev, I was surprised that families only had one or two children. The shortage of houses for families, the small size of houses, low incomes, the lack of prepared food, the lack of household appliances, and women having to work full time all contributed to
small family sizes and the decline in population. If you don't think that socialism failed, ask someone who has been to Western Europe or America.

Economists believe that socialism failed for several reasons.

The first reason is called the information problem. In a socialist economy, a central planner needs information on (1) what products and services can be produced, (2) the monetary or labor cost of production, (3) the quality of products and services
produced and
(4) the value of the products and services to consumers.

A central planner needs the above four pieces of information for hundreds of thousand of products and for millions of
consumers. For a commodity product like steel, finding the above four pieces of information is possible. An engineer at a steel
mill could observe and calculate the needed information. This is why socialist economies were able to produce commodity products
like steel.

But for more complex products like cars, the quality is harder to observe. Every car would have to be inspected. The
factory could lie to the central planners and say that every Lada is well built. Would you tell your boss, the central planners,
that your work is bad?

For more complex products like computers or even magazines, the four pieces of information are more difficult to collect. How
can you measure if magazine articles are good? How much time and money should it take to develop a new computer? How can you
measure if a computer software program is good? Central planners
were not able to get this information. Since central planners did not know what complex products could be produced, how much it
would cost to produce complex products, or if the products would be useful, few complex products were produced. Information on
services is also difficult to collect. It is difficult for the government to determine the quality of millions of restaurant
meals.

In a market economy, there is no central planner. The consumer decides if a magazine article is well written. The
consumer decides if a computer is good. The consumer decides if a car is good. The consumer decides if a restaurant meal is good. Individual businesses decide if they can make a quality product for less than consumers will pay for it. No central planning is needed. This is a great advantage of market economies.

A second reason why socialism fails is that central planners are often selfish or corrupt. Socialism needs well informed
central planners who are not selfish and who make the best decision for the public. Usually central planners make the best
decision for themselves or the best decision for the government leaders. For example, socialist governments often value a large
military more than they value consumer goods for the public. Socialist governments often value consumer goods for the leaders
more than they value consumer goods for the public. Therefore, socialist economies usually did not produce many consumer goods
the public.

There are also selfish people in capitalist countries, but capitalism works because people are selfish. A selfish
businessman provides you with quality products because he wants you to remain his customer. A selfish socialist planner doesn't have to give you anything.

In capitalism, politicians are also often selfish, but government intervention in a market economy is small. Democracy,
just like capitalism, also works with selfish people. Selfish politicians give voters what voters want, because selfish
politicians want to be reelected. A selfish socialist dictator doesn't have to give you anything.

The third problem with socialism is that there is less incentive to work hard. With capitalism if you work hard and are
lucky, you can become rich. With capitalism if you don't work hard, you could lose your job. I do like economics, but a big
reason I spend weekends and nights writing papers is to get a better job in the future.

Suppose that you are a socialist central planner considering building a factory. How much time would you spend on the
decision? You would probably do as little work as possible. You would probably do just enough work to please your boss. Now
suppose you were a businessman who would lose $100,000 if you make the wrong decision. How much time would you spend on the
decision? You would probably work overtime gathering information and make a much better decision. Businessmen usually make better
decisions that socialist planners because businessmen are spending their own money and businessmen who make too many wrong decisions
go bankrupt or are fired.

GUTB
20th October 2002, 09:11
===
Socialism in North Korea has failed to do as well as capitalism in South Korea. Socialism in East Germany has failed to do as well as capitalism in West Germany. Socialism in Cuba is not doing well. Socialism in China is giving way to a market economy. Socialism in the Soviet Union did not do as well as capitalism in Europe.
===

Socialism never existed in these countires, so it is impossbile to say that the same has failed in them. Without the basic knowledge of what socialism is, one cannot draw conclusions about the success (and lack thereof) of socialism. Any discussion on the merits of socialism thus is purely spurious and cannot be taken seriously.

So, how centralized will planning of the economy be in a truly socialist system? Certainly far less so than the current system. How it works today is that a handful of mega-corporate board members and CEOs pay consultants to tell them what makes them the most money, and then take those recommendations and run them through the corporate beuracracy (make no mistake: a large corporation is like a small goverment). A socialst system may look strikingly similar to that -- expcept that the benifit of growth isn't collected by a tiny minoirty of non-working elite, but reaped instead by the mass of workers who *created the growth*. In essence, the capital of an enterprise flows from the mass of workers, not trickling down from a few CEOs at the very top. Democratic processes complete the picture so that a factory worker is workign for his own material position, *NOT* for the enrichment of a handful of super-rich heirs sitting at the top like some kind of aristocracy.

LeninCCCP
22nd October 2002, 06:58
well he's no longer saying "communism" at least

Wenty
22nd October 2002, 10:23
hey what we really want now MaxB is another new topic right, with another long,boring post which no-one will bother reading? How about it...

Lardlad95
22nd October 2002, 12:21
MaxB I don't know how many times I've had to tell you this so shut up for a second and LISTEN I know it's hard for people with big motuhs to do so but please


SOCIALISM ISN"T ONE MUTHAFUCKIN THING THERE ARE SEVERAL TYPES SO YOU CAN"T SAY "SOCIALISM" WILL ALWAYS ULTIMATELY FAIL AND CAN"T COMPETE WITH MIXED ECONOMIES>>>GUESS WHAT<<< SOME FORMS OF SOCIALISM ARE MIXED ECONOMIES

James
22nd October 2002, 12:29
i wish he'd just copy and paste the address...

fettered
28th October 2002, 05:44
hey your right. some are mixed economies. and guess what, They can't hold CRAP compared the United States. Its not a mistake we TOTALLY DOMINATE THE WORLDS ECONOMY.

IHP
28th October 2002, 06:29
And you're proud of it??? its nothing to be proud of. Is it fun crippling others countries into submission. Thats what your bloodthirsty government does! wake up to it!

--IHP

Guest
28th October 2002, 06:41
anybody can make blanket statements like that. the fact is socialism has worked for much of western europe. site the worst possible extremes of course. and of course, at least oscialist governments that don't produce as well as we do don't have to worry about the bloodshed they've caued in other countries to get such production. the fact of the matter is a "mixed economy" can be socialism or capitalism. pure capitalism will fall on it's ass if it is ever tried(which it won't bcause economic policymakers all know that).

and your claims are just rhetorical. how do you define production? more technology doesn't equal more freedom. great. we can kick everybody's ass and we have more cell phones per capita. wow....i'm so dumbfounded by our amazing economy. why not site some examples of western european socialism that has provided quite well for it's people without global imperialism and military intervention in every continent on the globe? even some small communist states such as kerala, india or afghanistan before we funded the crazy-ass moslem mujahideen to overthrow them.

money doesn't equal freedom and economic productivity doesn't always equate to egalitarian prosperous societies with low crime rates and high educations and all htose other things socalists yammer about(even cuba can provide health care better than we can. come on, guys)

Guest
28th October 2002, 06:57
more: also, what makes you think it is always proftable to serve the peoples' interests? in a capitalist state, it was profitable for a large percentage to be unemployed so they could treat workers however they want so that if the workers got pissed enough to striek or protest, the unemployed masses would be ready to fill their spot. such was urban life in the industrial revolution

it also was very profitable for the tobacco industry to produce a product that was LETHAL to it's consumers. the consumers were free to boycott that product, you say? well, it was also profitable for them to hold back that information when their tests showed damn well that it was.

it's also profitable to monopolize the energy system of a country and refuse to offer alternatives when we know damn well that it's less efficient and it involves war to get oil.

it's also profitable to put toxic waste anywhere you damn well please.

the best system? you decide.

socialists never produce well? who was the first to put a satellite into space? america? hmm....no, wait! it was RUSSIA! whoops.....my bad. not that the soviet union was egalitarian by any means.

and if capitalism is so great for everybody, why are our schools so much shittier than most socialist nations in western europe?

p.s. your post lacks transitions. it's in short, choppy sentences that make it really really boring to read. reading your un-inspiring tirade of capitalist mental masturbation is like reading a less eloquent ayn rand.

fettered
28th October 2002, 07:07
so your saying its bad for America to dominate the world's economy? No doubt you would rather your country, whatever it is, to do so. Well that makes sense your naturally just jealous. I've got no problem with you, at least that shows a real motive.

Hey guest, the reason our schools are so crappy is because they are dominated by socialist schoolteachers. The left has dominated American schools for 50 years, its really no suprise public schools suck so much.
Or didn't you know teachers unions are one of the highest contributing PAC's to the democratic party?

Guest
28th October 2002, 08:24
oh my fucking god...."the reason our schools suck is ebcause they're run by socialist teachers". you retard. and pacs for the democratic party can't do much when your president is hell-bent on starting WW3 and pumping money into the military. and clinton didn't do much for healtch care or the environment or schools, either. the only difference between democrats and republicans is that democrats pretend to give a shit about such things.

LOIC
28th October 2002, 10:29
"Its not a mistake we TOTALLY DOMINATE THE WORLDS ECONOMY. "

Only because we live in a capitalist world where the most dishonest and the more violent country can dominate.
Anyway all these capitalists talking about"how u$ economy is superior" disgust me.
Is there no hobo in the u$a? Is there no prostitute?
u$ ecnomy is great but only few people benefit of this greatness.That's the reason why I hate capitalism and why I hate capitalists!

mentalbunny
28th October 2002, 10:39
I'm lazy when it comes to filtering through the crap in these kinds of thread so sorry if i say something soemone has already said, or miss out a brilliant point I could make! (I also apologise for all typos)

Socialist teachers are usually the best cos they have more respect for you and are usually more intersting, but then I'm biased. Most younger teachers are vaguely socialist, they have the ideals but aren't quite willing to do anything. Then again teaching is doing something, you're not trying to do it for yourself, get the best job etc, cos it's so poorly paid!

Another thing is America sucks. It could be so great but it's fucked up cos of the selfishness of its people, of the West as a whole, but then it would be the same with anyone else, we can't change human nature...

IHP
28th October 2002, 10:41
"so your saying its bad for America to dominate the world's economy? No doubt you would rather your country, whatever it is, to do so. Well that makes sense your naturally just jealous. I've got no problem with you, at least that shows a real motive."

Honestly, you really have no idea do you? You constantly make assumptions about people. In your mind you see material goods as the pinncale of happiness.

would i be jealous? i have no reason to be. Why would i want a big crippling economy? my government having a big economy holds no relevence to me. It pisses me off when huge corporations make lots of money. It means that the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer! yeah, great im sooo jealous, i wish i could exploit people. Why dont you scurry off and read about maquiladoras, ok?thats why your economy is big!

--IHP