Sexuality and Gender ...

[Module]

Inspired by the 'Sexuality' poll in Chit Chat, and the disproportionate amount of people of sexual minorities on RevLeft, I got these statistics from Wikipedia, which I thought were interesting;

Australia
2003: The largest and most thorough survey in Australia to date was conducted by telephone interview with 19,307 respondents between the ages of 16 and 59 in 2001/2002. The study found that 97.4% of men identified as heterosexual, 1.6% as gay and 0.9% as bisexual. For women 97.7% identified as heterosexual, 0.8% as lesbian and 1.4% as bisexual. Nevertheless, 8.6% of men and 15.1% of women reported either feelings of attraction to the same sex or some sexual experience with the same sex. Half the men and two thirds of the women who had same-sex sexual experience regarded themselves as heterosexual rather than homosexual.[4]It seems to me that whilst men are less likely to engage in 'homosexuality' in private, as well as be attracted to members of the same sex in comparison to women, they are also comparatively more likely to identify as homosexual than women - and, women, whilst being less likely to identify as homosexual, are more likely to engage in homosexual sex.

So basically what I want to discuss is ... why is this the case?

Do you think that there is more pressure for women to identify as bisexual, and maintain a publically 'sexual link' to men, rather than identify as homosexual and forfeit that?

Do you think that the reason less men report engaging in homosexual 'experience', and having an attraction to men is because they could see it as... a threat to their masculinity, for instance?

Do you think that the reason more women report " " could be because women are more sexualised than men, and henceforth it is easier for them to find other women attractive, for instance, or possibly because it is seen more as an 'out there', 'cool' thing to do, sex between women being more accepted than sex between men?

Do you think the reason more men identify as homosexual than women, who are more likely to identify as bisexual could be because male homosexuality is more culturally acceptable, whereas female homosexuality is regarded as something 'dirtier'?
Could it have something to do with the fact that both men and women who identify as bisexual are both stereotyped as preferring men?

These are just discussion points .. so.. err
Discuss. :cool:

It would be interesting to see what people think.

[BobKKKindle$]

Men do face pressure not to exhibit attraction to other men, because attraction to women is such an important part of the male gender role. Men are expected to be attracted to women, especially women who conform to the accepted image of how a women should present herself (large breasts, revealing clothing, etc.) and men who do not meet this expectation are often met with terms of abuse which are homophobic in nature - for example, faggot. Discussion of women in a sexual context is also an important part of male social interaction. Therefore, an accusation of homosexuality poses a direct threat to a man's gender identity.This could explain why women are more open about having sexual experiences with a member of the same sex than men. This is closely linked to the different ways people perceive male and female homosexuality. Homosexuality between women is more accepted than male homosexuality, and is seen as sexually arousing by many men, as shown by the fact that lesbian pornography is one of the most popular genres of pornography.

[Module]

Men do face pressure not to exhibit attraction to other men, because attraction to women is such an important part of the male gender role. Men are expected to be attracted to women, especially women who conform to the accepted image of how a women should present herself (large breasts, revealing clothing, etc.) and men who do not meet this expectation are often met with terms of abuse which are homophobic in nature - for example, faggot. Discussion of women in a sexual context is also an important part of male social interaction. Therefore, an accusation of homosexuality poses a direct threat to a man's gender identity.This could explain why women are more open about having sexual experiences with a member of the same sex than men. This is closely linked to the different ways people perceive male and female homosexuality. Homosexuality between women is more accepted than male homosexuality, and is seen as sexually arousing by many men, as shown by the fact that lesbian pornography is one of the most popular genres of pornography.


Though, if this is the case, why is it that men are apparently more comfortable in identifying as homosexual than women?

Mind you I do agree with you on that homosexual attraction is discouraged. And this; 'Discussion of women in a sexual context is also an important part of male social interaction. Therefore, an accusation of homosexuality poses a direct threat to a man's gender identity.This could explain why women are more open about having sexual experiences with a member of the same sex than men'.
And I also think that goes both ways;
Though being attracted to women is a large part of a man's gender identity, it is more easily abandoned straight out as his relationship to women only effects him in how he is perceived by other men.
However, for women it's not so much being attracted to men, as it is being attractive to men. Due to our patriarchal societies, it is far more of a risk for women to cut off sexual ties with men than it is the other way around. Men have, among other sorts, more sexual independence. Through sexually cutting off men, women pose a risk towards their independence in other ways, and risk isolating themselves.
This could explain why women are more likely to identify as bisexual rather than lesbian, whereas men are not - to maintain this sexual link with men.

In reference to what you've said about pornography - and this is just part of the discussion, also;
Though lesbian pornography is popular, it is rarely made to be realistic, rather for the direct pleasure of men - often lesbian scenes in mainstream television/film involve either both or at least the more 'main' character to not actually be lesbian, rather bisexual.
I have a theory that this might come down to a sense of competition felt between men and lesbians (from a male point of view); that women are fine to go off with eachother, but maintain their primary interest in men.
I think this would explain the stereotype of bisexual women actually being straight and trying to get men's attention.
Often the 'lesbian' will be viewed as getting somebody else's girl, and will rarely have a serious, or long term relationship with her, for instance; and often her presence makes the men comically uncomfortable - a lesbian relationship is viewed through the male gaze.

On the contrary, in mainstream television/film, relationships between men occour with men who are full on gay and always will be. Women don't see gay men as 'something for them' to the extent men see gay women; henceforth there is no need for them to identify as 'bisexual' or have lingering looks at them together and so on.
I think that male homosexuality is portrayed in the media as something far more 'real' and far more serious as opposed to female homosexuality, which is portrayed as a sideshow for heterosexual relationships.

[Dean]

Though, if this is the case, why is it that men are apparently more comfortable in identifying as homosexual than women?

Mind you I do agree with you on that homosexual attraction is discouraged. And this; 'Discussion of women in a sexual context is also an important part of male social interaction. Therefore, an accusation of homosexuality poses a direct threat to a man's gender identity.This could explain why women are more open about having sexual experiences with a member of the same sex than men'.
And I also think that goes both ways;
Though being attracted to women is a large part of a man's gender identity, it is more easily abandoned straight out as his relationship to women only effects him in how he is perceived by other men.
However, for women it's not so much being attracted to men, as it is being attractive to men. Due to our patriarchal societies, it is far more of a risk for women to cut off sexual ties with men than it is the other way around. Men have, among other sorts, more sexual independence. Through sexually cutting off men, women pose a risk towards their independence in other ways, and risk isolating themselves.
This could explain why women are more likely to identify as bisexual rather than lesbian, whereas men are not - to maintain this sexual link with men.

In reference to what you've said about pornography - and this is just part of the discussion, also;
Though lesbian pornography is popular, it is rarely made to be realistic, rather for the direct pleasure of men - often lesbian scenes in mainstream television/film involve either both or at least the more 'main' character to not actually be lesbian, rather bisexual.
I have a theory that this might come down to a sense of competition felt between men and lesbians (from a male point of view); that women are fine to go off with eachother, but maintain their primary interest in men.
I think this would explain the stereotype of bisexual women actually being straight and trying to get men's attention.
Often the 'lesbian' will be viewed as getting somebody else's girl, and will rarely have a serious, or long term relationship with her, for instance; and often her presence makes the men comically uncomfortable - a lesbian relationship is viewed through the male gaze.

On the contrary, in mainstream television/film, relationships between men occour with men who are full on gay and always will be. Women don't see gay men as 'something for them' to the extent men see gay women; henceforth there is no need for them to identify as 'bisexual' or have lingering looks at them together and so on.
I think that male homosexuality is portrayed in the media as something far more 'real' and far more serious as opposed to female homosexuality, which is portrayed as a sideshow for heterosexual relationships.

This is an interesting take I hadn't considered. Thanks for sharing.

[Herman]

Though, if this is the case, why is it that men are apparently more comfortable in identifying as homosexual than women?

Because men have an easier time calling themselves homosexuals and being accepted. A woman calling herself a homosexual has a harder time, for a simple reason: You cannot get pregnant if you engage in lesbian sex, now can you?

Women are pressured towards having babies and raising a family. Homosexuality does not offer that. Bisexuality does however.

[black magick hustla]

i
Because men have an easier time calling themselves homosexuals and being accepted. A woman calling herself a homosexual has a harder time, for a simple reason: You cannot get pregnant if you engage in lesbian sex, now can you?

Women are pressured towards having babies and raising a family. Homosexuality does not offer that. Bisexuality does however.

i disagree. i think people give more crap to male homosexuals than lesbians. i know quite a few people who think it is ok for a kid to have two mothers but however, having two dads......

[Module]

i

i disagree. i think people give more crap to male homosexuals than lesbians. i know quite a few people who think it is ok for a kid to have two mothers but however, having two dads......
If gay men get more crap, why is it that they are less likely to feel the need to hide their sexual orientation than gay women?

[black magick hustla]

If gay men get more crap, why is it that they are less likely to feel the need to hide their sexual orientation than gay women?

honestly i dont really know. i always had the vibe that women are more open in terms of sexual identity and maybe screwing both males and females doesnt constitute for them being "gay" or whatever. while i always thought males were more prone to choosing one side and sticking to it.

[KrazyRabidSheep]

If gay men get more crap, why is it that they are less likely to feel the need to hide their sexual orientation than gay women?
If this is true, I would look into the combination of homophobia and sexism.

However, I couldn't give a non-speculative answer.

[communard resolution]

Though, if this is the case, why is it that men are apparently more comfortable in identifying as homosexual than women?

I would say that because attraction to the same sex is less acceptable for men, men will think of themselves as 'homosexual' the moment they experience such feelings. They will go and join 'the other side' full-time because they want to be in an environment that is accepting of their sexuality.

Since women can get away with more in regards to same-sex attraction, they feel no need to identify with lesbianism until their same sex desire becomes exclusive.

[Module]

I would say that because attraction to the same sex is less acceptable for men, men will think of themselves as 'homosexual' the moment they experience such feelings. They will go and join 'the other side' full-time because they want to be in an environment that is accepting of their sexuality.

Since women can get away with more in regards to same-sex attraction, they feel no need to identify with lesbianism until their same sex desire becomes exclusive.
An interesting hypothesis ..
Though wouldn't it be more likely that if homosexuality was less acceptable for men, men would be more, rather than less reluctant to identify as homosexual or bisexual than 'stay' straight?
Though it's not impossible, I find it very unlikely that the reason for the difference is simply that homosexual men face more social oppression and henceforth are more likely to identify as homosexual.
If anything, it should have the opposite effect.

I know that some gay people have tried to, rather than come out, become straight, try and force themselves to find the opposite sex attractive.
I must say I've never heard of somebody coming out because they knew people wouldn't approve.
When somebody becomes openly gay, they don't simply leave society behind and go join some segregated gay colony :lol: they would still be surrounded with straight people every day; and as such, if they felt people wouldn't approve, they'd probably have a much harder time coming out.

[communard resolution]

An interesting hypothesis ..
Though wouldn't it be more likely that if homosexuality was less acceptable for men, men would be more, rather than less reluctant to identify as homosexual or bisexual than 'stay' straight?
Though it's not impossible, I find it very unlikely that the reason for the difference is simply that homosexual men face more social oppression and henceforth are more likely to identify as homosexual.
If anything, it should have the opposite effect.

I know that some gay people have tried to, rather than come out, become straight, try and force themselves to find the opposite sex attractive.
I must say I've never heard of somebody coming out because they knew people wouldn't approve.
When somebody becomes openly gay, they don't simply leave society behind and go join some segregated gay colony :lol: they would still be surrounded with straight people every day; and as such, if they felt people wouldn't approve, they'd probably have a much harder time coming out.

I see what you're saying and I agree that gay men can usually not join separatist gay colonies. But I assume that the Australian survey you mention was conducted in confidentiality. So the survey only reflects the fact that these men consider themselves to be gay in private, regardless whether they are 'out' or 'in the closet' in public life. I imagine that because male homosexuality is more segregated, men will think of themselves as gay at the slightest signal in that direction, while many women who consider themselves straight have no problem with occasional same-sex attraction.

Look how many rules there are for being a 'proper' heterosexual male. Men's heterosexuality always seems to be at stake, and at the slightest instance of non-normative behavior (wrong clothes, wrong haircut, wrong mannerisms, wrong speech patterns, wrong taste in music, disinterest in stereotypically male interests, etc), society will impose corrective measures upon you (ridiculing, staring, physical assault, etc). You're 'either straight or gay', and in both instances you have to live up to your sexual identity.

In comparison, women are relatively free to sleep with whoever they want and look/act the way they want without having their sexual identity questioned. This allows for a lot of shades in between, not just black or white.

[trivas7]

Because social expectations are such that gay men are more pressured to indicate their sexual orientation; women OTOH are not so socially pressured. Is this too simple? :sneaky:

[Neutrino]

This has nothing to do with societal mores and everything to do with biology. Women are slightly more capable of bisexuality than men--who, in turn, have a greater incidence of exclusive homosexuality. That this disparity is caused by societal mores is an absurd and implausible explanation. The same people who would be invective towards homosexual males, in large part, take no different a disposition to homosexual females. Also, these same individual homophobes no more countenance bisexuality than they do homosexuality.

Also, RevLeft's disproportionate share of "sexual minorities" (of which I am one) is likely due to either an increased propensity to identify as bisexual--sometimes unfittingly--when signs of perhaps slightly amorphous sexuality manifest; a smaller sample size in itself, or perhaps even one presenting itself through selection bias; or a greater appeal to "sexual minorities" of a place like RevLeft.

[communard resolution]

This has nothing to do with societal mores and everything to do with biology. Women are slightly more capable of bisexuality than men

Quite frankly, I don't believe any of this. Who says that?

[communard resolution]

Because social expectations are such that gay men are more pressured to indicate their sexual orientation; women OTOH are not so socially pressured. Is this too simple? :sneaky:

No. You've managed to say in one 1-2 sentences what I needed several paragraphs for. :blushing:

[zelda]

Women tend to feel the need to nurture, while men feel to be nurtured.

[Neutrino]

Quite frankly, I don't believe any of this. Who says that?
Quite frankly, I see no reason to treat male and female sexuality as biologically equivalent. Similarly, I see little reason to assume that male and female homosexuality arise from the same stimulus. It may be that the term "bisexuality" is too nebulous to be used lightly here. I certainly have my own notion of it, and you may have yours. Generally, I feel bisexuality must condition two things: capability of sufficient levels of sexual arousal to two sexes, and capability of emotional sexual attachment to both of these sexes. The problem arises when we consider the fact that there is no appropriate scientific metric to gauge exactly what is sufficiency in these regards.

The only thing we have then are objective facts. Obviously, it's a popular notion that women are more capable of bisexuality, a notion that has been gradually constructed through empirical reality. It has been found through study (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/06/030613075252.htm) that women's arousal patterns are less connected to gender and more to general aesthetics. This brings the problem of definitions that I spoke of earlier back into the equation. Would something like this constitute bisexuality? From a scientific standpoint, where all other metrics are lacking, there is sufficient reason to call it such. However, from a pragmatic standpoint--the one my own criteria see to gauge--it means much less.

[trivas7]

This has nothing to do with societal mores and everything to do with biology.
I don't agree. One's sexual orientation differs totally from the degree to which one publicly identifies with it. That's why for some gay men and women and bisexuals there's a process involved called coming out.

[Neutrino]

I don't agree. One's sexual orientation differs totally from the degree to which one publicly identifies with it.

Even by its very nature, it's impossible to prove that claim. There's not much of a good reason to believe it, either. Sure, you may want to adjust the statistics upwards for random samples to account for self-denial. But we should adjust the figures upwards in equal proportions. Is it really substantially less acceptable for a man to be bisexual as opposed to homosexual? It is substantially less acceptable for a woman to be bisexual as opposed to a lesbian? I think it all depends on where one grows up, whether it's a relatively liberal society or not. There aren't many societies at all that accept one but not the other (with regard to bisexuality and homosexuality, for both genders).

[Module]

Even by its very nature, it's impossible to prove that claim. There's not much of a good reason to believe it, either. Sure, you may want to adjust the statistics upwards for random samples to account for self-denial. But we should adjust the figures upwards in equal proportions. Is it really substantially less acceptable for a man to be bisexual as opposed to homosexual? It is substantially less acceptable for a woman to be bisexual as opposed to a lesbian? I think it all depends on where one grows up, whether it's a relatively liberal society or not. There aren't many societies at all that accept one but not the other (with regard to bisexuality and homosexuality, for both genders).
With all due respect, I think that's simplifying it a little.
Bisexuality and homosexuality are considered very differently, in Western societies (which is all I can thoroughly speak of).
Homosexuality is a complete rejection of traditional sexual roles, whilst in bisexuality, this link still exists. As I said earlier, women who are bisexual are treated differently to those who are gay - a bisexual woman maintains her sexual link to the men in her life, whilst a woman who identifies as gay cuts that link. This link is very important in a patriarchal society to how one is treated. In the absence of this link you have stepped right outside the sexual boundary of the female gender role - the sexual subservience to men. You have denied this role of sexuality within the lives of the men around you in a way that you haven't when you identify as bisexual. Especially considering, as I mentioned, the stereotype of bisexual women simply being secretly trying to 'impress' men.
The same, though to a lesser degree (or at least in a different way for those who disagree with me) for men.
:)

[Neutrino]

The same principle could work for men, too... but the thing here is that the statistics and studies still indicate a disparity. One might be inclined to call oneself "bisexual" over "homosexual" because the former label (in most people's minds) means that one might live a "normal" life, one where there is a possibility of childbirth. This is the same for both men and women, and yet there is still a disparity between the incidence of homo and bisexuality with men and women.

I don't think that very many women who self-identify as bisexual are in the oppressive state of mind of which you speak. I think that, if it were the case, they would be very willing to identify as lesbian. Think about it.

[Module]

The same principle could work for men, too... but the thing here is that the statistics and studies still indicate a disparity. One might be inclined to call oneself "bisexual" over "homosexual" because the former label (in most people's minds) means that one might live a "normal" life, one where there is a possibility of childbirth. This is the same for both men and women, and yet there is still a disparity between the incidence of homo and bisexuality with men and women.
I don't think that this reason is necessarily 'absolute' enough to be overly relevant to the issue of sexual identity, anymore.

There now exist a multitude of ways that people can have children without being in a heterosexual relationship. When I think about somebody having kids, I don't only think about pregnancy through sexual intercourse anymore, but other methods - sperm donation, IVF, surrogate mothering, ... etc. etc.
The issue of childbirth wouldn't be so important to homosexual men and women nowadays because of that.


I don't think that very many women who self-identify as bisexual are in the oppressive state of mind of which you speak. I think that, if it were the case, they would be very willing to identify as lesbian. Think about it.
I have thought about it plenty - so if you could explain it to me?

[zelda]

There are teenagers running around saying they are bisexual and homosexual, not knowing much about either. All this talk of homosexuals and bisexuals increased their confusion. They will find no joy in their lives because people around them and in this world, keep telling them they can't be truly happy with themselves until they admit their sexual preference. For goodness sakes, the last thing they need to be concerned with while in high school is sexual preference. They need to focus on their school work and what they want their future to hold for themselves.

[communard resolution]

There are teenagers running around saying they are bisexual and homosexual, not knowing much about either. All this talk of homosexuals and bisexuals increased their confusion. They will find no joy in their lives because people around them and in this world, keep telling them they can't be truly happy with themselves until they admit their sexual preference. For goodness sakes, the last thing they need to be concerned with while in high school is sexual preference. They need to focus on their school work and what they want their future to hold for themselves:confused:Zelda, are you sure you're a leftist at all? Like, in any respect? Just wondering... cause looking through your posts, everything you write is extremely conservative at best. You're anti-abortion even in case of rape? You think "women tend to feel the need to nurture"? You think "all this talk of homosexuals and bisexuals" is bad for teenagers? You think "our leaders" should "act up"?

I don't mean to attack you, I'm just confused and wondering if this is the right forum for you... If I got something wrong, I obviously apologize.

[trivas7]

There are teenagers running around saying they are bisexual and homosexual, not knowing much about either. All this talk of homosexuals and bisexuals increased their confusion. They will find no joy in their lives because people around them and in this world, keep telling them they can't be truly happy with themselves until they admit their sexual preference. For goodness sakes, the last thing they need to be concerned with while in high school is sexual preference. They need to focus on their school work and what they want their future to hold for themselves.
I find this really condescending and paternalistic towards teenagers. They know perfectly fine what they have to do to have a healthy respect for sexuality, which I'm sure occupies much of their attention -- like it or not.

[Lector Malibu]

There are teenagers running around saying they are bisexual and homosexual, not knowing much about either. All this talk of homosexuals and bisexuals increased their confusion. They will find no joy in their lives because people around them and in this world, keep telling them they can't be truly happy with themselves until they admit their sexual preference. For goodness sakes, the last thing they need to be concerned with while in high school is sexual preference. They need to focus on their school work and what they want their future to hold for themselves.

Who are you to state what teenagers should focus on and not and what they can handle?

[Tower of Bebel]

So I read about this study where they tested men and women on sexuality and sensuality and the conclusion was that women focused more on sensuality rather than gender (sex) and men did the opposite.
I think this might explain the difference between men and women regarding the last findings of the OP?

[Sharon den Adel]

I wish to add that I believe the survey conducted is called the 'Gatehouse Project'. It began in schools in the mid ninteen nineties, and every five or so years, we are asked to again participate to see if our answers have changed.

I am currently taking part in this survey, and my last survey was in 2003. My next should be eithor some time this year or early to mid next year.

The project addresses issues such as drug use, sexual intercourse, drinking, smoking, self harm, family environment, school, and sexuality.

Most of my friends who took part lied about the questions, which was a shame as they were taking part in something monumental that could answer many important questions.

[LIBERATOR]

I wish to add that I believe the survey conducted is called the 'Gatehouse Project'. It began in schools in the mid ninteen nineties, and every five or so years, we are asked to again participate to see if our answers have changed.

I am currently taking part in this survey, and my last survey was in 2003. My next should be eithor some time this year or early to mid next year.

The project addresses issues such as drug use, sexual intercourse, drinking, smoking, self harm, family environment, school, and sexuality.

Most of my friends who took part lied about the questions, which was a shame as they were taking part in something monumental that could answer many important questions.

And I bet that they regret it now as well. I have never heard of this project,..sounds pretty cool as long as valid information is put into it as you said.

[Sharon den Adel]

And I bet that they regret it now as well. I have never heard of this project,..sounds pretty cool as long as valid information is put into it as you said.

I think most of the students were genuine with their answers, just a few of them ruined it, and decided not to take part in the study after that.

There were only twelve schools in the country chosen for this project, so it's a great honour to take part in something so important.

[Neutrino]

I find this really condescending and paternalistic towards teenagers. They know perfectly fine what they have to do to have a healthy respect for sexuality, which I'm sure occupies much of their attention -- like it or not.

I don't think zelda's post was discriminatory at all. Teenagers, on average, are not as certain about these kinds of things. It's just the way it is.

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

I heard somwhere that 1 in 4 men felt an attraction to members of their own sex. Is this a bollocks stat that I've picked up or does it have some truth to it?