Trotskyist neo-conservatives

[communard resolution]

Could somebody brief me on the connection between American Troskyists and neo-cons, i.e. why are they seen as the forerunners of neo-conservatism by some? Is that just a very subjective opinion/slander or are there any facts to back up this position?

[Tower of Bebel]

I don't even know what you are talking about. Where is the logical connection between neocons and American Trotskyists?

[JimFar]

Well some of the original neo-conservatives were either in the Trotskyist movement or on its fringes. Irving Kristol, in his youth, had been a member of the Socialist Workers Party, for instance. The philosopher Sidney Hook, who in his later years was lookedy up to by many of the neo-conservatives as a great intellectual hero, back in the 1930s after having become disillusioned with the Communist Party, joined with A.J. Muste to form the American Workers Party. Hook later participated in talks with James Cannon's Communist League, which led to the merger of the two groups to form the Socialist Workers Party (USA). During that time, Hook while never formally avowing Trotskyism, participated in such pro-Trotsky activities such as convincing his old philosophy teacher, John Dewey, to chair the commission which investigated Stalinist accusations against Trotsky. Dewey found all these charges to be unfounded.

A couple of other figures of note include James Burnham, who while not associated with neo-conservatism as such, was generally admired in neo-con circles. He was active in the Trotskyist movement in the 1930s. He famously clashed with Trotsky over his thesis of bureaucratic collectivism. By the late 1940s, he had swung politically to the far right and became one of the founders of modern conservatism, becoming a close confidante of the late William F. Buckley, Jr. Buckley was not a neo-conservative either, but his magazine National Review was generally quite hospitable to them, to the point that they seem to dominate it now a days.

Some of other original neo-cons like Daniel Bell were never Trots as fasr as I can tell, but were social democrats. However, back at the time there had existed some overlap between social democrats and Trots, since in the US, James Cannon and his followers were for a time affiliated with the Socialist Party, after Norman Thomas invited them to join.

[Dros]

Tony Cliff took the position that the USSR was the main enemy and that US imperialism during the Cold War was justified in attempting to stamp out the Soviet Union. So basically, a lot of Trotskyists during this time started supporting hawkish politics in the US and then just became neo-cons and gave up Trotsky altogether.

That's what I've heard...

[Random Precision]

Tony Cliff took the position that the USSR was the main enemy and that US imperialism during the Cold War was justified in attempting to stamp out the Soviet Union. So basically, a lot of Trotskyists during this time started supporting hawkish politics in the US and then just became neo-cons and gave up Trotsky altogether.

That's what I've heard...

You mean Max Shachtman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Shachtman), whose break with Trotskyism was more because of his reformist tendencies than his views on the USSR.

[Dros]

You mean Max Shachtman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Shachtman), whose break with Trotskyism was more because of his reformist tendencies than his views on the USSR.

Yes I was referring to the Shachtmanites as one of the groups of Trotskyists but there were also a bunch of Cliffites who did this as well.

And yes. I'm very well aware that Cliff wasn't a big fan of Shachtman and criticized him for being, well, you know...

[Random Precision]

Yes I was referring to the Shachtmanites as one of the groups of Trotskyists but there were also a bunch of Cliffites who did this as well.

Which "Cliffites" did this? Because Cliff, and his party saw the United States and the Soviet Union as two competing capitalist superpowers, between which the workers movement should not have to choose. Thus the slogan, "Neither Washington nor Moscow, but international socialism."

In any case, Cliff only emerged as a major player on the revolutionary scene in Britain during the seventies, long after the future neoconservatives in America (some of whom were influenced by Shachtman) started drifting rightwards.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Basically, some people used to be Trotskyists, and then they became neo-cons. That's pretty much it.

[Demogorgon]

It is thought that when some ex-Trotskyists shifted to the right, they retained some degree of the belief in permanent revolution and turned it into a belief the US should seek to continuously remake the world in its image.

[RHIZOMES]

I don't even know what you are talking about. Where is the logical connection between neocons and American Trotskyists?

A lot of insane Stormfronters (A redundancy, I know) believe this.

[Dros]

Which "Cliffites" did this? Because Cliff, and his party saw the United States and the Soviet Union as two competing capitalist superpowers, between which the workers movement should not have to choose. Thus the slogan, "Neither Washington nor Moscow, but international socialism."

Right. His position though correct, is obviously different from the orthodox Trot theory of degenerated worker's states. In that sense (Shachtman and Cliff saw the USSR as capitalist), the theories are similar. I had thought that I heard about Cliffites moving towards neoconservativism. I may have been wrong and I'm sure you know more about this than I.

I didn't bring up Shachtman because I don't view him as a Trotskyist (and neither did he or Trotsky).

[Die Neue Zeit]

I hereby ask preliminary "forgiveness" from real Trots on this board for what may happen in the future: if I EVER encounter a neo-con in OI, I will have to heap upon such person Stalinist insults ("Trotskyite-fascist wrecker"). :(