Holocaust - truth or fiction?

[PaulDavidHewson]

I've been strolling some forums, amongst others www.thephora.com and i've come across some holocuast deniers.

I was wondering if there are any holocaust deniers here?

I can imagine some national bolsjevihk supporters denying it.

[PunkRawker677]

The holocaust deiers are basically just a bunch of retards too ignorant to relaize plain fact. Fucking wankers.

[yourfriend]

its obvious that you dont know what the word ignorant means. Ignorant, means "lack of knowledge", and using it the way you did makes absolutely no sense at all. So you might want to look up a word, next time you try to sound intelligent.

[vodun]

I've seen a few delusional Holocaust deniers in here, but this forum is chock-full o' Jew haters. Shocker!

[bluerev002]

accually i think da punk used it right.

think your so smart?!! i could still kick yoiur ass fucker!!

(um, its a joke, so dont shove it up da ...)

[antieverything]

This "yourfriend" character seems to be a little fruity.

[bluerev002]

Quote: from antieverything on 3:58 am on Oct. 11, 2002
This "yourfriend" character seems to be a little fruity.

LOL!!! now now antieverything.....be nice to the new guy...or girl..............HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

[canikickit]

"yourfriend" is a xenophobe, he deserves crucifixion.

I think perhaps these neo-nazis might have a "lack of knowledge" about the holocaust.
I really don't understand what the fuck you are saying, it seems you are the one who is attempting to sound intelligent. It is not working.
It might work with your xenophobic, racist, ignorant friends, but you don't fool me asshole.

Go back to seaworld.

[antieverything]

I thought you stopped doing drugs, canikickit!

I guess that it would be pointless to point out yourfriend's misuse of a comma.

[PunkRawker677]

eh. i used ignorant wrong?

The have a 'lack of knowledge' about the holocaust.

"too ignorant to relaize plain fact"

They have a lack of knowledge which impairs their ability to realize plain fact.

[canikickit]

I haven't done any drugs in about five weeks. What the hell man? You're going on my death list now.

[PunkRawker677]

Am i on your death list? If not, how do i enroll myself?

[canikickit]

You have to pass a series of diverse tests.
The first is to tell me who produced "Bank Robber" by the Clash. It is a great honour to be on my death list.

[PunkRawker677]

Mikey Dread

=)

[canikickit]

You're dead.
Was that a guess? Or did you do some research?
I'm downloading that song now, it sounds pretty good.
I think I heard it before.


Anyone who denies the holocaust should check out the one happening now. But they probably think that is alright.
They're all on my deathlist as well, even if they never heard of Mikey Dread.

[PunkRawker677]

you told me like 5 weeks ago.

[boadicea88]

Well I have a friend who is a holocaust denier, and he (don't drop dead from shock) actually isn't dumb, or ignorant. He just has a different opinion.



Hmmm, i doubt that i should have said that. Oh well.

[Anonymous]

Am I going to die?

[canikickit]

I have a different opinion as well.

The sky is yellow. Yes. I am not ignorant.

[Stormin Norman]

There are many here that apply the same logic of holocaust denial to the human rights abuses of communist nations. Seeing as how more people died as a result of communism than Nazi socialism, I think we can put them on the same level. Whatever excuses they try to offer, it is purely a disgraceful act to downplay such calamities. Go here:

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...ic=1109&start=0 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=1109&start=0)

if you would like to read examples that get at the heart of the leftist agenda. How can these harpies allow their ideology blind them to the pure evil that communism embodies? Your guess is as good as mine.

[Guest]

I think the holocaust could be questioned as being jewish and western propaganda, remember how the numbers of dead kept going down until the arabs attack israel and then magically the number of dead jews pops back up to 10 million. And during the cold war they even said things like the holocaust victims were really victims of stalin, and were lied about by him. The holocaust is a bunch of dead minorities in germany, we won't know how many, because idiots change the numbers all the time, but theres no doubt that camps were created for the relocation of these minorities (concentration camps) and many people died in them, whether purposeful or not is still questionable and whether it was as huge a tragedy as people say, is questionable too.

I think the holocaust is open for debate and people who call others ignorant or stupid or whatever for denying it, aren't really all that smart if they just automatically believe what they were taught in school.

I honestly doubt any of you people throwing out insults know anything about the holocaust except what you were forced to listen to.

[PunkRawker677]

"THE HOLOCAUST" DID HAPPEN. I never spoke of degree of severity. I spoke of IF IT HAPPENED. We all know Jews were killed by Hitler. anyone who denies the fact that the holocaust happened IS ignorant. You can't deny history - you can argue over details, but you cannot say the holocaust was 100% fabricated.

[PaulDavidHewson]

Take a look here:
"Holocaust on Trial"
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transc...1holocaust.html
Trial, proving once and for all the holocaust did happen.

"Leuchter also made a fundamental mistake in the analysis of his own results. He took the fact that there were far greater quantities of cyanide in the de-lousing chamber than in the gas chamber to mean that there had been no gassing of humans.

In fact, a far greater quantity of cyanide is necessary to kill lice than to kill humans and so the results were entirely consistent with the presence both of de-lousing chambers and of homicidal gas chambers."

also:
source:
http://christianactionforisrael.org...lo/lipstadt.htm
"Eichmann wrote the diary while in jail from 1961 to 1962, after Israeli agents captured him in Argentina and brought him to trial in Israel. In the handwritten 1,300-pages, the overseer of the Nazi death machine reportedly says the mass killing of Jews during the Holocaust was the worst crime in human history. Scholars who have seen the memoir say that it repeats arguments Eichmann made at his trial, insisting that he was only a mid-level official following orders. "

and:
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/filial/diary.html

also:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/


Fact: Nazi designers of the Auschwitz camp have come forward to explain that certain buildings were designed solely as gas chambers.
Fact: German soldiers witnessed brutal tortures and are still retelling the stories.
Fact: Hitler ordered the Final Solution and was kept up to date of its progress via Himmler.
Fact: Mike Harwood, the self-acclaimed historian never graduated from Oxford as he said, and his publishers have strong neo-Nazi links.
Fiction: Anything that refers to a 'Holohoax'.



Also:
Death Camps and Jewish Deaths (Partial listing)
Auschwitz 1.6 million
Bergen-Belsen 50,000
Buchenwald 60,000-65,000
Dachau 35,000
Nordhausen 8,125
Flossenburg 27,000
Gross-Rosen 105,000
Mauthausen 120,000
Ravensbruch 92,000
Theresienstadt 33,430
Sachsenhausen 105,000


Enemies of the State--Exterminations
European Jews 5,6000,000 to 6,250,000
Soviet Prisoners 3,000,000
Polish Catholics 3,000,000
Serbians 700,000
Roma (Gypsies) 222,000 to 250,000
Political prisioners, journalists, teachers, activists 80,000
Handicapped & alcoholics 70,000
Homosexuals 12,000
Jehovah Witnesses 2,500


Chronology of Events

1933
January 30: Hitler becomes chancellor of Germany. Jews feel effects of anti-Jewish polices.
March 20: The first concentration camp at Dachau is established.

1935
September 15: Nuremberg Laws are established, which contain Reich Citizenship Law, stating that German citizens are those with “German or related blood,” and the Law for the Protection of German Blood and Honor, which prohibits marriage or sexual relations between German non-Jews and Jews.
November 15: First Ordinance to Reich Citizenship specifies that a Jew cannot be a Reich citizen.

1938
June 15: 1,500 German Jews are sent to concentration camps.
October 5 The passports of German Jews are marked with a “J” for Jude.
November 9/10: “Night of the Broken Glass,” or Kristallnacht, destroys Jewish synagogues and businesses; 30,000 Jews interned in camps.
November 15: Jewish children excluded from German schools.

1939
January 30: Hitler declares that world war will mean the “annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe.”
May 15: Ravensbruck, the first women’s camp, is established.
May 18: The first women arrive at Ravensbruck.
June 29: Austrian Gypsy females are deported to Ravensbruck.
September 1: Germany invades Poland.
September 3: Great Britain and France declare war on Germany.
September 9: World War II begins.
September 17: Russian troops invade Poland and occupy half of the country.
September 28: Germany and Russia divide Poland.

1940
January: First experimental gassing of Jews and other “undesirables” occurs.
February 8: Lodz ghetto is established.
April–June: Germany invades Norway, Holland, Denmark, France and Belgium.
April 27: Himmler orders the establishment of Auschwitz in Oswiecim, Poland.
April 30: Lodz ghetto is sealed.
October: Warsaw ghetto is established.

1941
March 1: Himmler travels to Auschwitz and orders additional facilities and the construction of Birkenau (Auschwitz II). Prisoners are available for forced labor to construct I. G. Farben.
March 3: Adolf Eichmann is appointed head of the Gestapo’s Section for Jewish Affairs.
June 22: Germany invades Russia. Poland comes under total control of Germany.
July 31: Hermann Göring signs orders giving Reinhard Heydrich authority to prepare “the Final Solution of the Jewish question.”
September 3: The first experiment with Zyklon B takes place in Auschwitz.
September 29–30: The Einsatzkommando murders 33,000 Jews near Kiev.
October 15: From Czechoslovakia, Germany, Austria and Luxembourg, 20,000 Jews are deported eastward to ghettos.
November: The Theresienstadt ghetto and concentration camp is established.
December 7: Japan attacks Pearl Harbor. United States declares war on Japan.
December 11: United States declares war on Germany.

1942
January 20: Wannsee Conference establishes doctrine for the “Final Solution.”
February 15: First people are killed with Zyklon B in Auschwitz.
March l: First inmates moved to Birkenau (Auschwitz II).
March 20: Farmhouse renovated as gas chambers in Auschwitz-Birkenau.
March 26: Separate women’s camp established in Auschwitz.
May 4: The first “selection” takes place for those who have been imprisoned in Auschwitz for months. The unfit are sent to gas chambers.
July 4: First selection at the railroad unloading platforms in Auschwitz takes place.
July 7: Heinrich Himmler agrees to experimentation with Jewish women in Auschwitz.
July 15: Jews are deported from Westerbork. Anne Frank and her family are deported to Auschwitz.
July 19: Heinrich Himmler orders complete extermination of Polish Jews by the end of the year.
July–September: Approximately 300,000 Jews are deported en masse from the Warsaw ghetto.

1943
January 18: First Warsaw Ghetto uprising breaks out.
March–June: Four gas chambers and crematoria are operational in Auschwitz-Birkenau.
April 19–May 16: Additional Warsaw ghetto uprising and final destruction of ghetto.
Mid-June: Heinrich Himmler orders liquidation of all remaining ghettos.
July 11: Hitler bans public reference to the “Final Solution of the Jewish question.”
October 1–2: Danes rescue 7,200 Danish Jews.
December: First transport of Austrian Jews to Auschwitz takes place.

1944
March 19: Germany occupies Hungary.
April: Jews are mandated to wear the Star of David.
May: First transport of Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz takes place.
June 6: D-Day: Allied forces land in Normandy.
August 2: A Gypsy family camp in Auschwitz is liquidated (2,897 prisoners)
October 7: A Sonderkommando revolt takes place in Auschwitz-Birkenau. Jewish women smuggle explosives and destroy Crematorium IV.
November: Killing with Zyklon B in gas chambers is discontinued.
November 26: Heinrich Himmler orders destruction of the crematoria in Auschwitz-Birkenau.

1945
January 6 :Four female Jewish resistance fighters who smuggled explosives to Sonderkommando are hung.
January 17–18: Evacuation and forced march from Auschwitz-Birkenau takes place. Of 31,894 prisoners in the last roll call, 16,577 are reported to be female.
April 11: U.S. forces liberate Buchenwald.
April 15: British forces liberate Bergen-Belsen.
April 29–30: Russian forces liberate Ravensbruck.
April 30: Hitler and Eva Braun commit suicide.
May 7–8: V-E Day: Germany surrenders.
September 17–November 17:Bergen-Belsen war-crime trials are held. Twenty women, including Irma Grese are sentenced to death.
**Chronology is excerpted from Love Carried Me Home: Women Surviving Auschwitz: Simcha Press (Miller, Joy, 2001)


I'm going to quote Eichmann here on his thoughts on the Holocaust:
the most enormous crime in the history of mankind" and "the biggest dance of death of all times".

[Sulla the Dictator]

Quote: from boadicea88 on 1:15 pm on Oct. 11, 2002
Well I have a friend who is a holocaust denier, and he (don't drop dead from shock) actually isn't dumb, or ignorant. He just has a different opinion.



I would suggest to him that he holds the wrong opinion.

[queen of diamonds]

It's all very well to have a different opinion, just so long as it's supported by evidence, something I find lacking in the arguments of many holocaust deniers. When we were studying Nazi Germany, I came across more evidence supporting the fact that the holocaust did occur.

That said, I think holocaust deniers, who have bothered to question what they've been told, are somewhat more intelligent than the people I see around me who unquestioningly accept that the holocaust did happen, without bothering to wonder about whether it is true or not.

[boadicea88]

Oh hello Sulla. I doubt that I'll like you any better here than at the Phora. Who are you to say who's opinion is right or wrong?


SN- I thought you left. "Seeing as how more people died as a result of communism than Nazi socialism", eh?
Explain and cite sources.


Nice post by Guest.


Oh and Sulla- sorry, I've felt like picking a fight all week, so ignore that...

[boadicea88]

*Kisses to QofD*

[Sulla the Dictator]

Quote: from boadicea88 on 12:54 pm on Oct. 12, 2002
Who are you to say who's opinion is right or wrong?



Simply one with extensive knowledge about the Holocuast, and how very real it was. I can post a body of evidence for you if you wish.

At the core of things there is such a thing as truth. For example, regardless of the 'lessons' one takes from the Roman sack of Carthage, it is almost CERTAIN that Rome did sack Carthage.

As to with this. To deny the Holocaust is like someone denying WWII, or Vietnam, or the Civil War.

*I* certainly didn't see the Civil War. I know it happened.

[PunkRawker677]

Sulla, PDH: Great posts!

boadicea88 - you have some fucking issues if you think its alright to think that the holocaust didn't happen. to just ignore the millions that died.

QoD - I agree that its all good and dandy to question historical events, but there is no (or very very little) evidence supporting the denial of the holocause while there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that it certainly DID happen. People accept it, because its common and proven fact that it DID OCCUR. Would you question that the world was round? you know its round, right? we have very much evidence, and you've learned about it in school. I assume everyone here has also learned about the holocaust as well.

[Stormin Norman]

Excellent post, Paul. That is pretty much how it was taught to me. Those are the facts, and anyone who would try to deny them, has an obvious bias that should be questioned. These are likely the same type of people that turned their backs on the events at the time they were, in fact, occurring. The type of willing ignorance demonstrated here was a necessary component for the prosecution of the final solution. It also raises the question of whether or not this type of event could go unchallenged, yet again.

[guerrillaradio]

Fuckin hell, I didn't expect Sulla to turn up here. Ah well.

Paul - welcome back. I missed you. You gonna stick around?? I reckon you should join The Phora too (if you haven't already).

"The Holocaust" (as it is called) quite plainly did happen. There was a mass genocide. People who doubt that should also doubt that Hitler existed, and that the earth goes round the sun.

[PaulDavidHewson]

thanks:)

Yeah, I joined thephora shortly after I returned here.
I'm Spinoza there and I'm having alot of diffulcties debating against FadeTheButcher, he's pretty good.

[queen of diamonds]

Quote: from PunkRawker677 on 8:22 pm on Nov. 22, 2002
Sulla, PDH: Great posts!

boadicea88 - you have some fucking issues if you think its alright to think that the holocaust didn't happen. to just ignore the millions that died.

QoD - I agree that its all good and dandy to question historical events, but there is no (or very very little) evidence supporting the denial of the holocause while there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that it certainly DID happen. People accept it, because its common and proven fact that it DID OCCUR. Would you question that the world was round? you know its round, right? we have very much evidence, and you've learned about it in school. I assume everyone here has also learned about the holocaust as well.


Hence, why most people come to the conclusion that the holocaust did exist. People who blindly accept this fact without questioning the evidence make themselves and their beliefs easy targets for white nationalists to attack.

[Solzhenitsyn]

IMO, the subject of the Holocaust has been closed to even reasonable debate. I think the base story of the Holocaust is true but some of the non-critical areas reside entirely on shaky evidence. In many countries, an attempt to debate particular evidence is criminal. This is an obsene joke sponsored mainly by the Antifa movement in Europe.

Neither does it seem the proponents of the orthodox view are willing to crack down on the rampant huxterism within their own ranks. For example, Martin Gray's For Those I Loved is still used in history classes even though it's beyond dispute that Mr. Gray (AKA Graywenski) spend the entirety of WWII serving in the grotesquely evil NKVD. The eye-witness account presented in his book is in fact a lie. In another case a writer who claimed to be a Holocaust survivor even though he was born in 1948. The typical response is "Their accounts are useful even though it's a work of fiction." I have to point out that noble lies are still lies.

[canikickit]

In another case a writer who claimed to be a Holocaust survivor even though he was born in 1948. The typical response is "Their accounts are useful even though it's a work of fiction." I have to point out that noble lies are still lies.

I don't know anything about the works you are talking about, or how they are used. I think it is important to note, however, that just because something is fiction does not neccessarily mean it is not true.
For example "Animal Farm", there never was a Mr. Jones or any of those animals, but it is still a book which we can learn from, or if we don't learn it is still a valid comment on humanity.
Also the book, "Exodus" by Leon Uris, not all elements of it are true, but some are and those that are not are a relevant reflection of some aspects of what was going on.

[PaulDavidHewson]

"Neither does it seem the proponents of the orthodox view are willing to crack down on the rampant huxterism within their own ranks. For example, Martin Gray's For Those I Loved is still used in history classes even though it's beyond dispute that Mr. Gray (AKA Graywenski) spend the entirety of WWII serving in the grotesquely evil NKVD. The eye-witness account presented in his book is in fact a lie. In another case a writer who claimed to be a Holocaust survivor even though he was born in 1948. The typical response is "Their accounts are useful even though it's a work of fiction." I have to point out that noble lies are still lies. "


yea, there are some myths surrounding the holocaust.
It is now widely accepted that the corpses of jewish people were never used for soap and such.
Also the number of jewish people who died in WOII has been reduced to somewhere around 6 million.
this proving that earlier concluded facts regarding the "endlosung" are still being questioned and nothing is blindly accepted as a fact.
Give it time and all myths surrounding the endlosung will disappear and so will the lying authors. Only the real truth about the nazi terror will remain.

The only good thing about holocaust deniers would be that they are critic about the facts they accept, leaving the rest of us with the job to prove it really did happen.
This way we'll all learn the truth eventually.