So, are bourgeoisie class conscious?

[BIG BROTHER]

Yes, or no, and why?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Of course...

“There’s class warfare, all right,” Mr. [Warren] Buffett said, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/business/yourmoney/26every.html

[Zurdito]

No.

According to Marx, class consciousness is when a class as a whole understands its historic role within the development of human society. The proletariat is the only class whichc an acheive this, due to it being the one class with no stake, no property, the class which is not a class, the dissolution of classes.

The bourgeoisie can never place itself outside capitalism and therefore can never understand its historic role in all its wholeness.

The Warren buffet quote above is being used to suggest that the bourgeoisie really knows that Marx was right, and that it's just tricking us. This is wrong. Social being detemrines consciousness, and the social being of the bourgeoisie means it has a bourgeois morality and cannot see capitalism for what it truly is, and instead believes its own rehtoric - for the most part.

[gla22]

I think the bourgeoisie knows it is on top and will do anything to stay there.

[Dros]

Both what NHIA said and what Zurdito said.

The Bourgeoisie does have class consciousness. It does not have the highest degree of class consciousness (what Lenin called revolutionary class consciousness for the proletariat). I think they have an equivalent of trade union consciousness: they generally recognize that there is an international group of rich people who are exploiting the poor and who run the world. They don't understand that within a Marxist notion of class or history.

[trivas7]

The Warren buffet quote above is being used to suggest that the bourgeoisie really knows that Marx was right, and that it's just tricking us. This is wrong. Social being detemrines consciousness, and the social being of the bourgeoisie means it has a bourgeois morality and cannot see capitalism for what it truly is, and instead believes its own rehtoric - for the most part.
I agree with drosera99 above. Some of the bourgeois class do know their Marx, and understand it intellectually. Engels was bourgeois. That social being determines social consciousness doesn't mean that objective truth cannot be known by members of the ruling class.

[Zurdito]

I agree with drosera99 above. Some of the bourgeois class do know their Marx, and understand it intellectually. Engels was bourgeois. That social being determines social consciousness doesn't mean that objective truth cannot be not known by members of the ruling class.

I'm not talking about individuals, I'm talking about the class as a whole. The OP was clearly asking if the bourgeoisie as a whole currently posseses class consciousness, and whether this is what is behind its continued "class war" on the proletariat. The answer to that is a clear no. the point of whether isolated individuals from within the bourgeoisie can leave the bourgeoisie and join the proletarian cause is quite another one.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Of course the bourgeoisie does not have proletarian class consciousness, but it does have bourgeois class consciousness. In other words, the bourgeoisie is self-aware of its own existence and thus acts in its own interests. It doesn't mean they embrace the development of human history as described by historical materialism. On the contrary, it ensures that they universalize the capitalist system, which they see as eternal instead of a stage..

Because of its position in capitalist society, the proletariat's class consciousness is not limited in the way of that of the bourgeoisie. Class consciousness for the proletariat involves understanding our role in the current form of society, as well as seeing the place the current form of society has in the course of human history, and the need for us to bring about the next stage: socialism.

[Zurdito]

bourgeois class consciousness. In other words, the bourgeoisie is self-aware of its own existence and thus acts in its own interests.


that isn't class consciousness. class consciousness is when a class truly understands its historical role, not just when it has an understanding of immediate economic interest. Plenty of trade union workers know that the working class exists and fight for immediate economic interest. This doesn't mean they have class consciousness.

The term class cosnciousness can by definition only apply to the proletariat.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

You're taking the flawed line of Lukács, who said that the only "real" class consciousness was that of the proletariat, since it was the only class capable of seeing the whole picture as it were, and its role within it.

But what he, and you, describe as "true class consciousness" is proletarian class consciousness.

Lukács basically described the class consciousness of the bourgeoisie as I did earlier (limited to the current epoch, which it sees as eternal, etc.), but labeled it "false consciousness."

Of course the bourgeoisie is class conscious (in the way I first described).. it can be seen in everyday life as the bourgeoisie is conscious of its own interests, which it continually pursues.

Contrary to Zurdito's assertion that class consciousness means a class being aware of its historical tasks, in general, class consciousness simply means a class is self-aware of its existence and acts in its own interests.

Just because a worker is in a union doesn't mean they have proletarian class consciousness.. in order to have that consciousness they'd have to understand the role of the proletariat under capitalism, the place capitalism fits in human history, how human history progresses, it's historic task of doing away with capitalism, etc... Again, our class consciousness is not the same as that of the bourgeoisie.

[apathy maybe]

I am going to take a radical position, and one that probably most Marxists won't like. But like hell I care if they like it or not.

It goes like this, individuals are capable of thought, states, classes etc. are not. And just so, no class as a whole can think.

So no, the bourgeoisie cannot be conscious as a class, and neither can the proletariat. What happens in both cases is that members of these classes can view society and notice their position in society.

If they understand where they are, and why they are in that position, then they can be said to have class consciousness.

Meh.

[R_P_A_S]

Those of you who say that the bourgeoisie is class conscious obviously have no contact with any bourgeoisie. In my line of work I'm probably around more bourgeoisie than working class people. and I'm not talking about petty-bourgeoisie. anyways They are not and if they are they sound like what CDL first post said.

Let's be honest rich ass people, like working people think that this is how life is. and the reason they are wealthy and on top is justified in their mind. after all "everyone can climb the latter":rolleyes:

[Zurdito]

Of course the bourgeoisie is class conscious (in the way I first described).. it can be seen in everyday life as the bourgeoisie is conscious of its own interests, which it continually pursues.

This would be the bourgeois equivalent of trade union consciousness, not class-consciousness.

[Harrycombs]

I don't think they are. If they were, I think they would feel guilty. They are human too.

[Raúl Duke]

Maybe they are, even today, actively aware of their class conscious...

Or maybe in this era it's just "subconsciously" they act in the interest for their class supremacy against the proletariat (although they never act in the interest of other in their class, since the objective of capitalists and capitalism is to make as much profit as possible and thus require a bit of competing with other capitalists for market share.) {something as like Apathy mentioned, they know their position in society and their conscious is affected by it. "Being determines consciousness" type of stuff. So, in this scenario, the bourgeoisie would act similarly but not always see it self as one monolithic "class." thus not really that conscious of themselves as a class but still react to their interests as a group to some extent.}.

Before the bourgeoisie did seemed more "class conscious in a way" when they were overthrowing feudalism. That seem to be their "big historic role."

[Dros]

This would be the bourgeois equivalent of trade union consciousness, not class-consciousness.

That's exactly what I said. They are vaguely aware of class. They are not scientifically aware of it nor do they (the Bourgeosie as a class) understand it in terms of production relations. But they most certainly are aware of it's existence even though they haven't really grasped it thoroughly and likely never will.


I don't think they are. If they were, I think they would feel guilty. They are human too.

Oh come on. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

[Zurdito]

That's exactly what I said. They are vaguely aware of class. They are not scientifically aware of it nor do they (the Bourgeosie as a class) understand it in terms of production relations. But they most certainly are aware of it's existence even though they haven't really grasped it thoroughly and likely never will.

yes you did say that, I apologise I wasn't trying to ignore that. I think you hit the nail on the head the first time. :)

When the bourgeosie talks about "efficiency" and people needing to "earn their keep" etc., it's because they really think in these terms, becuase their social being determines their consciousness.

I realise this is not exactly the point NHIA is trying to make, bbut I think it's worth pointing out that fighting for your own interests without understanding your place in history is not class consciousness, and if it were, then we would have to say that all trade union conscious workers are class conscious.

My opinion is that class conscious bourgeoisie do exist as a tiny minority, and they are the ones who renounce their background and become communists.

Otherwise we're left with the ridiculous proposition that bourgeois' who do become communsits are in fact no mroe conscious of "their" class' economic role than are members of the bourgeosie who stay bourgeois and fight for business interests.

As for the bourgeoisie having a conscience: I don't think it's as stupid as it sounds. I believe that in most cases they do in fact need to ideologically justify their own actions to themselves, because I don't think most humans who aren't sociopaths can function believing that the way they live day to day is wrong or harmful.

[KrazyRabidSheep]

I base this on personal experience. Specifically I base it on a stockbroker that I know (and for the most part tolerate, until politics come up.)

If you went up to a bourgeoisie such as this one and asked him "are you bourgeoisie?", he would deny it. He does not want to see himself as "elitist" and he wants to see himself as enlightened and fair.

Some bourgeoisie are even under the delusion that their way of life is the norm. This man really don't consider that there are people without savings, stocks, investments, etc. He assumes that others who live in their country own a car, have health insurance, have plentiful food, and live "the American dream". He assumes that the only people struggling to make ends meet live in the developing world.

He sees "poor" people, persons who have little or no money in the bank, no stocks, don't own a house, etc., the exception to the norm.
Furthermore, He has convinced himself that "poor" people somehow deserve their lot in life through laziness or lack of ambition.

That said, the bourgeoisie know, underneath it all, that they are different.

Why else would these people who try their hardest to see themselves as "average" support legislature that benefits the wealthy?

This man fears when he is parted with his money even while he squanders it on luxuries (a new lot, built house, state-of-the-art appliances, sod lawn, four cars (for three persons in the household) bought brand-new, large television sets, and vacations to both domestic and foreign destinations. All this, and he complains about "being on a budget" and "making ends meet".

Why would a person who has this money to spend worry about losing money? Because he fears losing not only his money, but his luxuries. He fears losing his power. He fears no longer belonging to the class which he cherishes. He fears losing his way of life.

But does this man have a legitimate fear? He owns many stocks. He has generous savings (although he refuses to send his daughter to the college of her choice because she wants to be a beautician.) He makes lots of money buying and selling stock. He will not go broke under his own means, but he fears his money taken away.

Yes, he knows he is (petit) bourgeoisie!
He fears that his money and power is taken away from him. He conspires with other bourgeoisie through the market and politics to maintain his power. He knows that the world demands beauticians, but resists when his only daughter chooses that path, because it is "beneath" their class. He supports legislation that aids the wealthy and harms the poor. Why? Again to maintain his status.

Bourgeoisie may deceive others. They may even fool themselves, but I am convinced by their actions that they know the score.

[mykittyhasaboner]

I don't think they are. If they were, I think they would feel guilty. They are human too.
no they wouldnt feel guilty, whether their class conscious or not, they understand that they have authority over everyone else, and that they send thousands of people to their deaths in wars. i personally dont even see at them as human beings.....

[Dros]

The Bourgeoisie as a class is not equal to the sum of it's parts. While individuals within the Bourgeoisie DO have a conscience (I know sum of 'em) and perhaps some even feel guilty, the class does not and it's not because they don't know what's going on.

[mykittyhasaboner]

and perhaps some even feel guilty, the class does not and it's not because they don't know what's going on.
because they enjoy oppressing the lower class?

[Bastable]

I agree with what some have said, they have a certain amount of class consciousness in that they realize that they are better off than many, hence upper class snobbery, but do not consider it a bad thing.

[R_P_A_S]

how are they class conscious? do they avidly read marx? no
do they take part in strikes and walk outs? hell no!
do they get exploited and see the injustices in the work place? fuck no!

how are you gonna be class conscious when you don't even see your status as the main problem that keeps society divided?

[Philosophical Materialist]

how are they class conscious? do they avidly read marx? no
do they take part in strikes and walk outs? hell no!
do they get exploited and see the injustices in the work place? fuck no!

how are you gonna be class conscious when you don't even see your status as the main problem that keeps society divided?

They maintain cognitive contradictions to allow them to act in this way. They deny the inherent unfairness of class and gender relations, preferring to believe that the middle classes got to where they are because they "worked harder." Some of the bourgeois denigrate proletarians as "lazy", "ignorant" and undeserving of the "burden" (i.e. privileges) that come with being middle class.

The middle class are class-conscious. Like someone else mentioned, they see their rule as the natural state of affairs, and the capitalist mode of production to be the most efficient. But they will reach for erroneous justifications to explain away the unfairness of the system.

[nvm]

No they are not ALL class concious.
Some are but not all.
It is just natural for them to squeeze profit from workers , they don t see it as a class concious activity.
Just like not all the proletariat is class concious.

[KC]

Of course the bourgeoisie does not have proletarian class consciousness, but it does have bourgeois class consciousness. In other words, the bourgeoisie is self-aware of its own existence and thus acts in its own interests.

This is not true. The bourgeoisie does not act in the interests of the bourgeois class as a whole, but rather in the interests of an individual or a group of individuals within the class. If the bourgeoisie was class conscious then there would be a much higher focus on the cooperation of capitalists to extract surplus value for the benefit of the class as a whole, as it would yield more profits than competition and would avert crises due to capitalist competition.

[nvm]

If the bourgeoisie was class conscious then there would be a much higher focus on the cooperation of capitalists to extract surplus value for the benefit of the class as a whole, as it would yield more profits than competition and would avert crises due to capitalist competition.

There is little capitalist competition left in many economic domains due to monopolistic concentration, but your argument is still valid because not all domains of the economy are monopolized or oligopolized.
Monopoly exists side by side with competition without the one negating the other.
But monopolists are class concious.
As I said before some bourgeois are class concious and some not.
That also applies to the proletariat.

[MarxSchmarx]

The bourgeoisie does not act in the interests of the bourgeois class as a whole, but rather in the interests of an individual or a group of individuals within the class. If the bourgeoisie was class conscious then there would be a much higher focus on the cooperation of capitalists to extract surplus value for the benefit of the class as a whole, as it would yield more profits than competition and would avert crises due to capitalist competition.

This would probably be a fair statement concerning their CONSCIOUS actions. However, they do plenty of things that do represent the interest of the bourgeois class as a whole. For example, they vote conservative, they fund things like the chamber of commerce, they impart their bourgeois values on their children, they expect everyone else to follow bourgeois norms, they propagandize for bourgeois interests ("free trade", "whiteman's burden", marketing), and they actively denounce proletarian class interests, almost to a man. There is no question in my mind that just because they don't conglomerate more, doesn't mean that their very being and daily going abouts is deeply predicated on a commitment to Bourgeois supremacy.

[KC]

There is little capitalist competition left in many economic domains due to monopolistic concentration, but your argument is still valid because not all domains of the economy are monopolized or oligopolized.
Monopoly exists side by side with competition without the one negating the other.
But monopolists are class concious.
As I said before some bourgeois are class concious and some not.
That also applies to the proletariat.

You haven't explained why you think monopoly capitalists are class conscious. I would argue that monopoly capitalists are just as "class unconscious" as any other capitalist, as they have become monopoly capitalists through competition.


This would probably be a fair statement concerning their CONSCIOUS actions. However, they do plenty of things that do represent the interest of the bourgeois class as a whole. For example, they vote conservative, they fund things like the chamber of commerce, they impart their bourgeois values on their children, they expect everyone else to follow bourgeois norms, they propagandize for bourgeois interests ("free trade", "whiteman's burden", marketing), and they actively denounce proletarian class interests, almost to a man. There is no question in my mind that just because they don't conglomerate more, doesn't mean that their very being and daily going abouts is deeply predicated on a commitment to Bourgeois supremacy.

First, many of these actions don't benefit the class as a whole. There is a large number of capitalists that are supporting democrats right now, for example, whereas others are supporting conservatives. However, when they do something in the "interests" of the class as a whole, it is not because they are conscious but because it benefits themselves; it is just coincidence that it is beneficial for the class as a whole.

Fighting against workers is not indicative of class consciousness; workers oppose reforms that benefit capital as well, and that does not mean that they are class conscious.

[MarxSchmarx]

Zampano, I am curious, how do you define "class consciousness"?

[Hit The North]

This is not true. The bourgeoisie does not act in the interests of the bourgeois class as a whole, but rather in the interests of an individual or a group of individuals within the class.

Consciousness is determined by social being. Therefore we should not expect the content of class consciousness to be the same across all classes, but to vary in accordance to the variation in the social being of one class or the other.

It takes two things to be class conscious: 1) to consider oneself the member of a class; 2) to see one's class in opposition to other classes.

Proletarian class consciousness is partly the recognition that only by uniting in solidarity with each other can anything be gained, our pains eased, within this rotten system. This recognition grows out of our objective condition within capitalism.

For the bourgeois, his relation to other classes being different, his obvious intellectual, spiritual, carnivorous superiority to others confirmed every time he looks out at the toiling masses under his control; for this guy, his objective condition is also his subjective fantasy of himself. So the bourgeoisie operate in a fog of illusion.

Marx wrote that the bourgeoisie were like a band of warring brothers - at war because they exist in competition with each other; but brothers because they share a common fate, one necessitating the accumulation of surplus value and the corresponding enforcement of wage labour.

We'd expect, therefore, bourgeois class consciousness to "reflect" or "echo" or "express" in some form, these contradictions inherent in their social being.

What's interesting is how when workers pass from ideas of competition to ideas of cooperation they pass from illusion to reality. When the capitalist makes the same journey he passes from a state of reality to a state of illusion.


If the bourgeoisie was class conscious then there would be a much higher focus on the cooperation of capitalists to extract surplus value for the benefit of the class as a whole, as it would yield more profits than competition and would avert crises due to capitalist competition.There is a great deal of cooperation and community within the capitalist class. Nevertheless, a key factor in the reproduction of capital isn't only how much can efficiently be pumped out of the producers, but also the form it takes - as private property. The sanctity of private property for the bourgeois leads him/her to never question the kingdom of free trade as the one, true state of nature.

[nvm]

You haven't explained why you think monopoly capitalists are class conscious.

Becaused they are especialy organized in order to get the most profits. They are class concious because they are organized in similar organizations as the class concious proletariat is organized.

[rampantuprising]

i believe that most of the bourgeoisie do not have class consciousness frankly due to the fact that they don't need to. they haven't struggled as the proletariats have so why would they be concerned with the topic of class consciousness? they are quite comfortable in their living conditions.but as stated by many of you before, i'm sure that some of them are "familiar with the generalities" of class consciousness, but i think its safe to say that for most of them it only goes about ankle deep