Anti-fascist sniper: Vasily Zaytsev

[Espanol Battalion]

My new hero, anti-fascist sniper: Vasily Grigoryevich Zaytsev – killed 225 Nazi officers and soldiers during the Battle of Stalingrad :D

From Zaytsev’s wiki entry:

Soviet sniper during World War II, notable particularly for his activities between November 10 and December 17, 1942 during the Battle of Stalingrad. He killed 225 soldiers and officers of the Wehrmacht and other Axis armies, including 11 enemy snipers. Prior to November 10, he had already killed 32 Axis soldiers with the standard-issue Mosin-Nagant rifle (tryokhlineyka, "three line rifle"). Between October 1942 and January 1943, Zaytsev had made 242 verified kills, but the real number may be much higher; some argue it might have been as many as 400

Enemy at the Gates is on the telly right now – Jude Law is playing Vasily Zaytsev.

[spartan]

Yeah i am watching the film right now as well.

Great guy and an example for us all to follow if we ever have to go through all that shit again (Which is threatening to happen with the looming economic crises and the rise of far-right parties like the BNP).

Here is the great man himself:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Vasily.Zaitsev.jpg/454px-Vasily.Zaitsev.jpg

[Sam_b]

Without being to much of a devil's advocate etc, may I ask why he is specifically an 'anti-fascist' sniper? If its just because he fought in Stalingrad such a saying would be like asserting that all Soviet soldiers are Stalinist.

[spartan]

By "Anti-Fascist" I think that the OP perhaps means that Zaitsev mostly targeted officers who he perhaps equates with being mostly pro-Nazi or drawn from the upper classes (Therefore making Zaitsev an "Anti-Fascist").

[Red October]

yeah, the dude killed a bunch of nazis, which is cool and all, but i don't think he's a great revolutionary hero or anything. there were soldiers from all the allied countries who accomplished spectacular feats during the war, it doesn't make them any more "anti-fascist" than any other soldier. the glorification of these sorts of things seems out of place in the modern revolutionary left, it sounds more like romanticized tankyism.


By "Anti-Fascist" I think that the OP perhaps means that Zaitsev mostly targeted officers who he perhaps equates with being mostly pro-Nazi or drawn from the upper classes (Therefore making Zaitsev an "Anti-Fascist").
targeting officers is an old military tactic to spread confusion and disarray, though them being officers probably did make them a target of more anger than the regular german soldiers.

and in the movie zaitsev is not a communist, so it's not like Enemy at The Gates is even a good portrayal of him.

[Sam_b]

it sounds more like romanticized tankyism

Thats a very good point.

[Comrade B]

My ancestors fought in the Nazi army, this does not make them nazis.

[Espanol Battalion]

the glorification of these sorts of things seems out of place in the modern revolutionary left, it sounds more like romanticized tankyism.

Sorry chaps, wasn't attempting any form of political revisionism! But, do understand the concern with 'tankyism' :blushing:

[spartan]

My ancestors fought in the Nazi army, this does not make them nazis.

Did they volunteer or were they conscripted?


the glorification of these sorts of things seems out of place in the modern revolutionary left, it sounds more like romanticized tankyism.

I dont think that it is glorification, well maybe for others it is but the point is that Zaitsev's extraordinary exploits were picked up on and were used as propaganda to better the Soviet's morale (Which was pretty shit after the huge German conquests and victories over Soviet forces).

So not only do you have him single handedly killing hundreds of Nazis because of his unique talents, you also have him giving hope to a demoralised people who could finally see that they could stand up to what was thought to be an unbeatable army.

[Sam_b]

extraordinary exploits

unique talents

1. He could shoot people. Whoop-de-fucking-doo.
2. There have been many other snipers, and on both sides too, who can similarly boast high kill ratios.

[spartan]

1. He could shoot people. Whoop-de-fucking-doo.
I imagine that shooting a living human being (Even a Nazi) isnt as easy for most people as you appear to make it sound by your comments.

2. There have been many other snipers, and on both sides too, who can similarly boast high kill ratios.
Yes i know but my point was that yes he isnt better than any other soldier, but his exploits earned him fame which not only gave the Nazis a severe officer shortage (Making their troops perform at a less than satisfactory level) but also helped better Soviet morale as his exploits were picked up by the Soviet propagandists (Who were desperately looking for a hero to counteract what appeared to be an unbeatable invading army).

For that reason alone we should celebrate this man and what he did, just like we should with every other Soviet soldier who fought and defeated Fascism during the Great Patriotic War.

[Sam_b]

I think the problem here is the uncritical support of the Soviet army during WW2. It wasn't all 'heroes' who were 'fighting fascism', not in the slightest.

[Dean]

A person who has the heart to take the lives of 225 soldiers, probably mostly post-encirclement when they were freezing, starving and without fight, is your hero?

I could see admiring someone who did them in all at once, or during the real active combat. But anyone who knows much about the siege of Stalingrad knows what a massacre that was, and to be able to see 225 people in the scope of your gun over what, a period of months perhaps? This is some extreme disassociation and I would feel sad for and be frightened of anyone I came across who had shot 225 people through the scope of a high-powered rifle.

[redSHARP]

1. He could shoot people. Whoop-de-fucking-doo.
2. There have been many other snipers, and on both sides too, who can similarly boast high kill ratios.


1.did you ever shoot a gun at a target? it is hard to get the breathing pattern right, get the sights on and distance measured, and sniping is fucking hard. it takes alot more skill than one would think.
2. sure there were nazi snipers, but we dont celebrate nazis on this site (unless they died and we are dancing on his grave)

[Sam_b]

sure there were nazi snipers, but we dont celebrate nazis on this site (unless they died and we are dancing on his grave)

Well obviously. But we should at times remember to make a distinction between Nazi supporters/members and those fighting for Nazi Germany. Just as we should make a distinction between the warmongers Bush and Blair (and their supporters) and those fighting in Iraq.

[Comrade B]

My family was drafted into the war from a tiny village. My Uncle Hans' brother was frozen/blown up in Stalingrad. My grandmother's brother was murdered by the Nazis for having downs syndrome. My Uncle Hans was an Anti-Tank gunner in North Afrika. My Grandfather was a paratrooper. I have several family members whose involvement in the military was unknown to me. My Uncle Kurt was in the SS on the front lines and became a pacifist after the war. He was the largest supporter for the Nazis in my family. He had never heard a Hitler speech or read any Nazi shit. He did not even know what he was getting in to.

Anyone who was a sniper in World War II on either side would end up extremely fucked up. You must look into the face of the person you are about to kill, stare into it, and then end the person's life.

[RaiseYourVoice]

Well obviously. But we should at times remember to make a distinction between Nazi supporters/members and those fighting for Nazi Germany. Just as we should make a distinction between the warmongers Bush and Blair (and their supporters) and those fighting in Iraq.
How on earth do you want to make that distinction? based on someone saying "i was no Nazi I just for for Germany" or maybe or party membership? (there were according to some historians massive forced NSDAP memberships, according to others there were few.) or based on what? That doesn't mean we should hate everyone that didn't take up arms against the Fascist regime till the end of days, it just means that there is NO justification ever for killing for the Nazi regime. Trying to make a distinction between good and bad Nazi soldiers opens the door for historical revisionism, the acceptance of Nazi murderers in the state etc. etc. How do I know so? Because that's exactly what happened a lot in Germany. You said "oh I didn't really follow" and boom you were back in business. That's why our new army, our secret service, the whole legal system was based on the same Nazis that already secured Hitler's regime.

Many people from my family were also soldiers during the war, they would never forgive themselves for what they have done / seen there and turned socialists / pacifists. And yes if you ask me they would have deserved to be shot during that time. But well they didn't and they changed.

[Comrade B]

The people being killed are the workers. Their deaths mean nothing to the leaders. Though I have no problem with the killing of armed men in war, I see nothing heroic in killing other working class human beings. If this sniper had killed, say 20 Nazi officials, or Gestapo, I would hail him as a great hero, but as a man who could kill other soldiers very easily, I simply call him a good soldier.

[Sam_b]

How on earth do you want to make that distinction? based on someone saying "i was no Nazi I just for for Germany" or maybe or party membership? (there were according to some historians massive forced NSDAP memberships, according to others there were few.) or based on what? That doesn't mean we should hate everyone that didn't take up arms against the Fascist regime till the end of days, it just means that there is NO justification ever for killing for the Nazi regime. Trying to make a distinction between good and bad Nazi soldiers opens the door for historical revisionism, the acceptance of Nazi murderers in the state etc. etc. How do I know so? Because that's exactly what happened a lot in Germany. You said "oh I didn't really follow" and boom you were back in business. That's why our new army, our secret service, the whole legal system was based on the same Nazis that already secured Hitler's regime.


Historical revisionism? Heap of rubbish. For debating purposes we have to make such distinctions? Would you say that everyone in the UK who votes BNP is a hardened racist, or in your country's case the NPD? Of course not. There is nothing acceptable about Nazism or fascism obviously. However, if you're forced to join the army down the barrel of a gun, what will most people do?

[RaiseYourVoice]

Historical revisionism? Heap of rubbish. I didn't say it is, I said its opening the door for that. And that's not debatable but a historical fact.


For debating purposes we have to make such distinctions? Would you say that everyone in the UK who votes BNP is a hardened racist, or in your country's case the NPD? Of course not.Yea because voting for and killing for are in any way comparable.:rolleyes:


However, if you're forced to join the army down the barrel of a gun, what will most people do?There were people who deserted in the field at home wherever. there were people who didn't join the army. Actually most people sadly just went along with the Nazi regime, the nationalism, the racism.

Also what i was saying if would read it, is that you CANNOT make that distinction. There is no way to decide if someone murdered for the Nazi regime because he was forced to or only because he was a racist fuckhead. Thus making the distinction between good and bad Nazi soldiers leaves the door open for racist murderers saying they never REALLY supported the regime.

The only logical conclusion is that every murder in the name of the Nazi regime HAS TO be condemned exactly the same, no matter the intentions of people. Else what is next, we make a distinction between racist murderers and those only proud of their nation?

[Sam_b]

Yea because voting for and killing for are in any way comparable.http://www.revleft.com/vb/anti-fascist-sniper-p1170833/revleft/smilies/001_rolleyes.gif

Its a shame that you completely fail to see any correlation or comparisons to your argument. I'm merely saying that out of those who fought for Nazi Germany, not all of them were racist or fascist. They did what they did to save themselves. MUCH LIKE those who vote for the BNP, not all of them are racist.


Actually most people sadly just went along with the Nazi regime, the nationalism, the racism.


Why was that? Because they got duped. Germany was in economic meltdown, and their stereotyping gave an easy target, which many went along with.

I like to think most people on RevLeft can make a distinction. Such 'revisionism' only happens if people want it to happen. Its good that most of us don't in this case. However, blanket analysis and mass generalisation lead to poor arguments and poor analysis, and this is something which also has to be resisted.

[RaiseYourVoice]

Its a shame that you completely fail to see any correlation or comparisons to your argument. I'm merely saying that out of those who fought for Nazi Germany, not all of them were racist or fascist. They did what they did to save themselves. MUCH LIKE those who vote for the BNP, not all of them are racist.
I don't because I never said they where all racists. I merely said that they all killed for the Nazi regime, and that is condemnable no matter the reason.


Why was that? Because they got duped. Germany was in economic meltdown, and their stereotyping gave an easy target, which many went along with.
Uh ya? So we know that the cause of racism and fascism is capitalism, pretty awesome. BUT does that make murder in the name of fascism any better?


Such 'revisionism' only happens if people want it to happen.
Yes, and there are enough forces in the society that want it to happen. For example those who happily murdered in the name of Hitler but somehow didn't want to face charges after that, in that time many people felt a lot more forced than they felt when shooting Jews.


However, blanket analysis and mass generalisation lead to poor arguments and poor analysis, and this is something which also has to be resisted.
Bla bla bla, first of all i never did mass generalisation. I said soldiers who killed for Nazi Germany are soldiers who killed for Nazi Germany. And that is an act that should be opposed, not justified.

I don't also see the bad analysis, because I stated pretty accurate how exactly what I said can happen, did happen in Germany. People just said "NO NO NO I WAS FORCED" to the outside and hoops they were judge, or officer in the army, or agent for the BND. De-Nazification in West-Germany was a joke. And yes that is partly because people made up justifications why you couldn't help shooting Jews.

[Sam_b]

If you're going to be sarcastic, at least make it funny :rolleyes:

OK then, if you have such a concrete envisionment, what alternative would you have suggested to the working people faced with forced enlistment to the Nazi army?

[RaiseYourVoice]

If you're going to be sarcastic, at least make it funny :rolleyes:

OK then, if you have such a concrete envisionment, what alternative would you have suggested to the working people faced with forced enlistment to the Nazi army?
Desert, maybe resist the Nazi empowering in the first place, join the resistance, leave the country, maybe not choose to become part of genocide to save your own ass.

Also this isn't the point at all. Its not about if some Nazi soldiers were better or worse than others. It's about wether or not we should make a distinction between someone shooting Jews because he loves it and someone who shoots Jews because he think he doesn't have a choice. And by distinction I don't mean some random moral value but practical things. For example is it any worse to shoot good Nazis on the battle field than bad Nazis? Or is it okay to give good Nazis jobs in the new military and bad Nazis not? Your distinction between those groups seems to work only on a completely abstract moral level.

Of course this doesn't change the fact that any death in the name of Imperialism, Capitalism, Fascism, Nation or Race is always sad. Anyone who joins the NPD or the BNP or whatever is sad. That doesn't justify treating people differently just because they say "I never knew"

Oh and trots don't have a sense of humour anyway.

[Sam_b]

It's about wether or not we should make a distinction between someone shooting Jews because he loves it and someone who shoots Jews because he think he doesn't have a choice.

The word 'think' is in there. I have absolutely no idea why.


Anyone who joins the NPD or the BNP or whatever is sad

Well its more like the BNP go into communities and talk about local issue such as housing and local conditions. I wouldn't all tar then with the same brush.


Oh and trots don't have a sense of humour anyway.

Does sectarianism get anyone anywhere?

[Tower of Bebel]

Lol, anti-fascist sniper. He was a soldier who shot officers and occasionly soldiers of a lower rank to create chaos and low moral. That's what a sniper does: he is a permanent threat to a unit, and so the unit has a low moral and less effective. You do not become a sniper to kill ideological enemies.

Not all soldiers in the German army were fascists. Even the most battle hardened nationalists were not always fascists (because if they were than many American soldiers in Iraq could be fascists). Besides, most workers stayed socialist yet many of them really believe that national-socialism was in one way or another socialism.

Zaytsev was a good sniper though. He's one of those soldiers who can be put next to other "war heroes" (like Von Richthofen for example) because of remarkable talents and skills.

[PRC-UTE]

A person who has the heart to take the lives of 225 soldiers, probably mostly post-encirclement when they were freezing, starving and without fight, is your hero?

I could see admiring someone who did them in all at once, or during the real active combat. But anyone who knows much about the siege of Stalingrad knows what a massacre that was, and to be able to see 225 people in the scope of your gun over what, a period of months perhaps? This is some extreme disassociation and I would feel sad for and be frightened of anyone I came across who had shot 225 people through the scope of a high-powered rifle.

The German Sixth Army were all volunteers who hoped to kill off most the Slavs and other "subhumans", enslave their survivors and seize their land to create a massive German empire that was racially pure. These men were believers in the Nazi project, and enthusiastically plundered and massacred their way across the SU.

I would have more of a problem with someone that didn't want to shoot those scummers.

[Tower of Bebel]

The German Sixth Army were all volunteers who hoped to kill off most the Slavs and other "subhumans", enslave their survivors and seize their land to create a massive German empire that was racially pure. These men were believers in the Nazi project, and enthusiastically plundered and massacred their way across the SU.

I would have more of a problem with someone that didn't want to shoot those scummers.

The whole of the Sixth Army was intirely fascist?! Give me a source.

[Comrade B]

The German Sixth Army were all volunteers who hoped to kill off most the Slavs and other "subhumans", enslave their survivors and seize their land to create a massive German empire that was racially pure. These men were believers in the Nazi project, and enthusiastically plundered and massacred their way across the SU.

I would have more of a problem with someone that didn't want to shoot those scummers.

I am pretty damn sure that is false. My grandmother's brother in law disappeared (was blown up or frozen) in Stalingrad. We were from a tiny village of >1000 which survived off of selling lumber to the near by city. They knew nothing about the happenings in government and probably never even heard Hitler speak until they were drafted.

[Fietsketting]

A person who has the heart to take the lives of 225 soldiers, probably mostly post-encirclement when they were freezing, starving and without fight, is your hero?

.

Thats a silly comment. Both sides had that issue and had their troops freezing to death. Both sides employed snipers.

[Bear MacMillan]

By this logic Churchill and Patton were anti-fascist too.

[PRC-UTE]

The whole of the Sixth Army was intirely fascist?! Give me a source.

See Beevor's work on Stalingrad.

[hekmatista]

I have to wonder how many of the participants in this discussion have either been in combat or faced a draft during wartime (or an "economic draft" during wartime and economic stagnation at home). This is an issue for me, since many otherwise fine comrades that I work with in the USA antiwar movement have no idea how to talk to veterans or GI's without coming across as morally smug ("well, I know what I would have done.")

[Devrim]

I have to wonder how many of the participants in this discussion have either been in combat or faced a draft during wartime (or an "economic draft" during wartime and economic stagnation at home). This is an issue for me, since many otherwise fine comrades that I work with in the USA antiwar movement have no idea how to talk to veterans or GI's without coming across as morally smug ("well, I know what I would have done.")

Maybe its something to do with pacifism, which is an ideology of moral righteousness, in the USA anti-war movement. It isn't something I feel as an issue but then, maybe, it is different when you live in a country where virtually every adult male has done military service.

Devrim

[Devrim]

It was an inter-imperialist war. The working class had no side in it.

Devrim