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heiss93
11th June 2008, 16:06
What are your opinions on Dawkin's the Selfish Gene?

From Reason in Revolt:

The Selfish Gene
Richard Dawkins, who came to fame with his controversially entitled book The Selfish Gene, has been at the centre of a heated polemic over genetics. Molecular biologists have identified the importance of DNA in replicating copies of DNA molecules. They possess coded instructions which produce the building blocks of life, amino acids. These make up proteins which shape cells and organs. Because of this, some molecular biologists and also sociobiologists have argued that all natural selection acts ultimately at the level of the DNA. This has led a number of scientists to have become so obsessed with the wondrous nature of the gene, that not a few are unable see the wood for the trees. Some have given the gene mystical qualities from which reactionary ideas are drawn. The idea that a person’s physical, mental and moral characteristics are handed down unaltered and unalterable from genes is certainly not supported by the facts of genetic science. Yet it has cropped up again and again in literature and has had a serious effect on social policy throughout the 20th century.
The gene transmits its influence from parent to offspring. It can only be defined as a difference between a number of different genes (called allelles) influencing the same thing (e.g. blue/brown allelles for eye colour). The difference is identified by means of biochemical, physiological, structural or behavioural testing/observation (after other sources of variation, like environment, have been excluded).
Unfortunately, many scientists and others use a misleading shorthand for the above definition. Particularly, that a gene that contributes to an individual animal behaving differently becomes the gene for its distinctive behaviour. Dawkins is not the only scientist that falls into this trap. In the 1970s many spoke of a gene coding for physical and behavioural characteristics. Also a gene must be compared with another for the same trait. It is not an entity that stands alone in its own right. As J. B. S. Haldane correctly pointed out, genetics is the science of differences not similarities. Quite simply, you and I can both be selfish—the differences between us cannot. You cannot apply personal characteristics to a comparison. In his book, The Selfish Gene, Dawkins jumps back and forth from one definition to the other, claiming that they are interchangeable—which they are not. The result has been to encourage biological determinism. A whole generation of American and other scientists are being brought up on this confusion.
The scientific research into genetics shows the possibilities for medicine, where gene disorders such as Huntington’s chorea, Duchenne muscular dystrophy, and others have been identified. However, there are widespread assertions that in some way genes are responsible for all kinds of things, like homosexuality and criminality. This genetic determinism reduces all social problems to the level of genetics. In February 1995, a conference on Genetics of Criminal and Anti-Social Behaviour was held in London. Ten of the thirteen speakers were from the United States where a similar conference in 1992 with racist overtones was abandoned because of public pressure. While the chairperson, Sir Michael Rutter of the London Institute of Psychiatry stated "there can be no such thing as a gene for crime," other participants, like Dr. Gregory Carey of the Institute of Behavioural Genetics, University of Colorado, maintained that genetic factors as a whole were responsible for 40-50% of criminal violence. Although he said it would be impractical to "treat" criminality through genetic engineering, others said there were good prospects for developing drugs to control excessive aggression, once the responsible genes had been found. He suggested, however, that abortion should be considered when antenatal testing indicates a child is likely to be born with genes predisposing it to aggression or antisocial behaviour. His view was endorsed by Dr. David Goldman from the Laboratory of Neurogenetics at the US National Institutes of Health. "The families should be given the information and should be allowed to decide privately how to use it." (The Independent, 14th February 1995.)
According to Professor Hans Brunner of Nijmegen University Hospital in Holland, men in a family who inherited a particular genetic abnormality of the X chromosome which led to a deficiency in an enzyme concerned with messages in the brain, have shown "impulsive aggression" including arson and attempted rape. Dr. David Goldman of the NIH Laboratory of Neurogenetics in Maryland, and Professor Matti Virkkunen of the University of Helsinki said they were discovering aggression-related genetic variations in the way people process brain chemicals. "Pharmaceutical companies are already interested in our findings," said Virkkunen. (The Financial Times, 14th February, 1995.)
Steven Rose described the conference as "troublesome, disturbing and unbalanced." The event was attacked in a letter by 15 scientists. Dr. Zakari Erzinclioglu, director of the Centre for Forensic Science at Durham University, called it "very disturbing, simple minded and mischievous." Ashley Montague pointed out that "it is not ‘criminal genes’ that make criminals, but in most cases ‘criminal social conditions.’"
Richard Dawkins’ The Selfish Gene, originally published in 1976, makes some startling assertions. "We are born selfish," says Dawkins. Although he says that "genes have no foresight" and "they do not plan ahead" Dawkins imbues genes with a consciousness and a "selfish" identity. They strive to replicate themselves, as if they are consciously planning how best this could be achieved:
"Certainly in principle, and also in fact, the gene reaches out through the individual body wall and manipulates objects in the world outside, some of them inanimate, some of them other living beings, some of them a long way away. With only a little imagination we can see the gene as sitting at the centre of a radiating web of extended phenotypic power. And an object in the world is the centre of a converging web of influences from many genes sitting in many organisms. The long reach of the gene knows no obvious boundaries." (86) Because for Dawkins individual organisms do not survive from one generation to another, while genes do, it follows that natural selection acts on what survives, namely, the genes. Therefore, all selection acts ultimately at the level of DNA. At the same time, each gene is in competition with each other to reproduce themselves in the next generation. "What after all, is so special about genes? The answer is that they are replicators."
In this view, the replicator of life is the gene; thus the organism is simply the vehicle for the genes ("survival machines—robot vehicles blindly programmed to preserve the selfish molecules known as genes"…"they swarm in huge colonies, safe inside gigantic lumbering robots"). It is a recasting of Butler’s famous aphorism that a hen is simply the egg’s way of making another egg. An animal, for Dawkins, is only DNA’s way of making more DNA. He imbues the genes with certain mystical qualities which is essentially teleological.
"I suspect," says Dawkins in his defence, "that both Rose and Gould are determinists in that they believe in a physical, materialistic basis for all our actions. So am I…whatever view one takes on the question of determinism, the insertion of the word ‘genetic’ is not going to make any difference." He then adds, "if you are a full-blooded determinist you will believe that all your actions are determined by physical causes in the past…what difference can it possibly make whether some of those physical causes are genetic? Why are genetic determinists thought to be any more ineluctable, or blame-absolving, than ‘environmental ones’?" (87)
Everything in nature has a cause and an effect, in which an effect in its turn becomes a cause. Dawkins mixes up determinism and fatalism: "An organism is a tool of DNA." Genetic determinism has a precise meaning, where genes are said to "determine" the exact nature of the phenotype. There is no doubt that genes have a powerful effect in the form of the organism, but its entity will be decisively influenced by the environment. For example, if two identical twins are placed into two totally different environments, two different characters will be produced. As Rose explains, "In reality, however, selection must act at a multitude of levels. Individual gene-sized lengths of DNA may or may not be selected in their own right, but that DNA is expressed against the background of the entire genotype; particular assemblies of genes or whole genotypes must therefore themselves represent another level of selection. Further, the genotype exists within a phenotype, and whether that phenotype survives or does not depends on its interaction with others. Hence it will only be selected against the background of the population in which it is embedded." (88)
Dawkins was forced to back-track to some extent, modifying his arguments in the later editions of The Selfish Gene (1989) and in The Extended Phenotype (1982). He says his flamboyant language left him open to misrepresentation and misunderstanding: "It is all too easy to get carried away, and allow hypothetical genes cognitive wisdom and foresight in planning their ‘strategy.’" He nevertheless defends his fundamental argument and views life "in terms of genetic replicators preserving themselves by means of their extended phenotypes." And that "natural selection is differential survival of genes." Dawkins now says "genes may modify the effects of other genes, and may modify the effects of the environment. Environmental events, both internal and external, may modify the effects of genes, and may modify the effects of other environmental events." But this concession aside, Dawkins’ main thesis remains.
For instance, he says: "Contraception is sometimes attacked as ‘unnatural.’ So it is, very unnatural. The trouble is, so is the welfare state. I think that most of us believe the welfare state is highly desirable. But you cannot have an unnatural welfare state, unless you also have unnatural birth control, otherwise the end result will be misery even greater than that which obtains in nature." He continues, "the welfare state is perhaps the greatest altruistic system the animal kingdom has ever known. But any altruistic system is inherently unstable, because it is open to abuse by selfish individuals, ready to exploit it. Individual humans who have more children than they are capable of rearing are probably too ignorant in most cases to be accused of conscious malevolent exploitation."
According to Dawkins child adoption is against the instincts and interests of our "selfish genes." "In most cases we should probably regard adoption, however touching it may seem, as a misfiring of an in-built rule," says Dawkins. "This is because the generous female is doing her own genes no good by caring for the orphan. She is wasting time and energy which she could be investing in the lives of her own kin, particularly future children of her own. It is presumably a mistake which happens too seldom for natural selection to have ‘bothered’ to change the rule by making the maternal instinct more selective."
He says that "if a female is presented with reliable evidence that a famine is expected, it is in her own selfish interests to reduce her own birth-rate." Dawkins also believes that natural selection would favour children who cheat, lie, deceive and exploit and that "when we look at wild populations we may expect to see cheating and selfishness within families. The phrase ‘the child should cheat’ means that genes which tend to make children cheat have an advantage in the gene pool." (89) He concludes that the organism is a tool of DNA, rather than the other way around.
These comments are interesting not so much for what they tell us about genes, but for what they reveal about the state of society in the last decade of the 20th century. In certain societies, powerful muscles or the ability to run fast can confer a genetic advantage. If a similar advantage is attributed to the propensity to lie, cheat and exploit, it must mean that such features are the qualities most necessary to succeed in modern society, and this is perfectly correct from the standpoint of the advocates of "market values." While it is extremely questionable that such qualities can, in fact, be passed on through the genetic mechanism, it is certainly the fact that they form the most essential features of the egoism of the bourgeois. The "war of each against all," as old Hobbes puts it, is the basic standpoint of capitalist society.
Is it true that such a mentality is a genetically conditioned part of "human nature"? Let us remind ourselves that capitalism and its values has only existed at most for the last 200 years out of approximately 5,000 years of recorded history, and 100,000 years of human development. Human society, for the overwhelming majority of its existence, has been based on the principle of co-operation. Indeed, human beings could never have raised themselves above the level of animals without this. Far from being an essential component of the human psyche, competition is a recent phenomenon, a reflection of a society based on the production of commodities, which twists and perverts human nature into patterns of behaviour which would have been considered abhorrent and unnatural in the past.
It is too easy to blame some mysterious phenomenon such as "our genes" for the grasping self-centred morality of the market-place. Moreover, this is not a question of zoology, but of social class. Individual capitalists compete against each other and do not hesitate to use any methods to ruin their rivals—lying, cheating, industrial espionage, insider dealing, predatory take-overs—these are considered to be normal commercial practice. From the standpoint of the working class, things are very different. It is not a question of individual morality, but precisely of social survival (the sociological equivalent of "the survival of the fittest"). The only power the working class possesses against the employers is the power of unity, that is precisely of co-operation.
Without organisation, beginning at the trade union level, the working class is only raw material for exploitation. The workers’ need to combine in the defence of their interests is a lesson that has to be learned over and over again. Selfishness and "individualism" (in the bourgeois sense of the word) is quite self-defeating for the working class. Every strike-breaker is presented as a great defender of "individual freedom" by the millionaire press because it is in the interest of the employers to atomise the working class, to reduce it to its component parts, utterly at the mercy of Capital. Here too, the dialectical law holds good that the whole is greater that the sum of the parts. Consciously or not, those who present selfishness as an ideal, or at least as "human nature," have taken up a definite position in relation to the struggle between wage labour and Capital, and cannot complain if they are criticised for providing grist to the Thatcherite mill.
Dawkins sees evolution not as the outcome of a struggle of organisms, but as a struggle between genes seeking to copy themselves. The bodies they inhabit are secondary. He discards the Darwinian principle that individuals are the units of selection. This is a fundamentally false idea. Natural selection deals with organisms, with bodies. It favours some bodies because they are better suited to their environment. The gene is a piece of DNA enclosed within the cell nucleus, large numbers of which contribute to the development of most body parts. This in turn is affected by a whole series of environmental factors, internal and external. Selection does not work directly on parts. Natural selection works on bodies because they are in some way "fitter," i.e., stronger, fiercer, warmer, and so on. If there is a particular gene for strength or other such specific attributes, then Dawkins may be correct. But that is not the case. There is not one gene for one bit of anatomy. For instance, the instructions for the construction of the ear is contained in a host of separate genes, half of which have come from either parent.
As Stephen Jay Gould explained: "It (natural selection) accepts or rejects entire organisms because suites of parts, interacting in complex ways, confer advantages…Organisms are much more than amalgamations of genes. They have a history that matters; their parts interact in complex ways. Organisms are built by genes acting in concert, influenced by environments, translated into parts that selection sees and parts invisible to selection. Molecules that determine the properties of water are poor analogues for genes and bodies." (90)
This analysis is backed up by Steven Rose in his criticism of Dawkins: "In reality however selection must act at a multitude of levels. Individual gene-sized lengths of DNA may or may not be selected in their own right, but that DNA is expressed against the background of the entire genotype; particular assemblies of genes or whole genotypes must therefore themselves represent another level of selection. Further, the genotype exists within a phenotype, and whether that phenotype survives or not depends on its interaction with others. Hence it will only be selected for against the background of the population in which it is embedded." (91)
Dawkins’ method leads him into the swamp of idealism, when he attempts to argue that human culture can be reduced to units he calls memes, which, apparently, like genes, are self-replicating and compete for survival. This is clearly wrong. Human culture is passed down from generation to generation, not through memes, but through education in the broadest sense. It is not biologically inherited but has to be painstakingly relearned and developed by each new generation. Cultural diversity is bound up not with genes but social history. Dawkins’ approach is essentially reductionist.
Societies are broken down to organisms, organisms to cells, cells to molecules, and molecules to atoms. For Dawkins, human nature and motivation are to be understood by analysing human DNA. The same is true of James Watson (the discoverer, with Crick and Franklin, of the double helix) who said "What else is there but atoms?" They never allow the existence of either multiple levels of analysis or complex modes of determination. They ignore the essential relations between cells and the organism as a whole. This empirical method, which emerged with the scientific revolution at the birth of capitalism, was progressive in its day, but has now become a fetter on the advancement of science and the understanding of nature.

Luís Henrique
11th June 2008, 17:27
Dawkins is an awful reactionary; I wonder why so many leftists are fascinated by his crap.

Luís Henrique

Hit The North
11th June 2008, 17:29
Dawkins is an awful reactionary; I wonder why so many leftists are fascinated by his crap.

Luís Henrique

He's an out-spoken atheist and, sadly, for some leftists, anti-religion is the limit of their critical sensibilities.

Dean
11th June 2008, 17:32
There is some validity to his claims, but in general it seems like a huge leap. I think it is clear that genes have a minor role in our overall personality development.

As for Dawkins himself, it is obvious that is hardly a leftist, but rather an obsessive atheist. He should stick to his field, rather than concerning himself with the destruction of supernaturalist beliefs.

Devrim
11th June 2008, 17:38
Richard Dawkins’ The Selfish Gene, originally published in 1976, makes some startling assertions. "We are born selfish," says Dawkins. Although he says that "genes have no foresight" and "they do not plan ahead" Dawkins imbues genes with a consciousness and a "selfish" identity. They strive to replicate themselves, as if they are consciously planning how best this could be achieved:

It really makes you wonder if they even read the book.

Devrim

dirtycommiebastard
11th June 2008, 17:41
It really makes you wonder if they even read the book.

Devrim

What do you mean?

Jazzratt
11th June 2008, 17:42
Dawkins is an awful reactionary; I wonder why so many leftists are fascinated by his crap.

Luís Henrique

There we have it. Biology is reactionary.

Devrim
11th June 2008, 17:43
Dawkins is an awful reactionary; I wonder why so many leftists are fascinated by his crap.

It interests people because it is interesting. He explains the neo-Darwinist-synthesis well.

It is interesting that his ideas are usually attacked, by the left, on an ideological, and not a scientific basis.

He isn't an awful reactionary. Please find one quote to back that up (aside from the workers on strike one which he later said was a mistake). He is just a bourgeois rationalist.

Devrim

Devrim
11th June 2008, 17:44
What do you mean?

He doesn't say that, and clearly states that it is not what he thinks.

Devrim

Devrim
11th June 2008, 17:46
There is some validity to his claims, but in general it seems like a huge leap.

The Neo-Darwinist synthesis, which Dawkins upholds, is generally considered to be correct in scientific circles.

Devrim

dirtycommiebastard
11th June 2008, 17:53
Dawkins suggests though, that there is in some cases, struggle for power between genes and the organism which hosts them. For example, genes want to be passed, but the use of contraception is detrimental to this, and the host wins the struggle against the genes.

I do not see the point of making claim like that unless you were insisting that genes have their own interests in mind.

Luís Henrique
11th June 2008, 18:09
He isn't an awful reactionary. Please find one quote to back that up (aside from the workers on strike one which he later said was a mistake). He is just a bourgeois rationalist.

So one can be a bourgeois ideologue without being a reactionary, awful or not?

Luís Henrique

Luís Henrique
11th June 2008, 18:15
It interests people because it is interesting. He explains the neo-Darwinist-synthesis well.

Unhappily, this is not what seems to interest people. People are interested in his religious atheism, and in his foolish pseudo-science of "memetics".


It is interesting that his ideas are usually attacked, by the left, on an ideological, and not a scientific basis.

Maybe the left does this. My attacks on him are on his total confusion of different levels, and his ridiculous analogies between ideas an genes.

Luís Henrique

Dean
11th June 2008, 18:20
The character worship of the bourgeois scientist is really sad. So what if he advanced sciences in a specific direction, and hates religion? Why the hell should I care about defending a person who is actively disinterested in communism and anarchism? Why the hell should anyone else give a damn? Some of his science is bullshit, this doesn't mean we don't respect any of his work. The fact that some feel obligated to defend every word of an admittedly bourgeois scientist is truly remarkable, and shows where some people have their priorities.

Devrim
11th June 2008, 18:31
Dawkins suggests though, that there is in some cases, struggle for power between genes and the organism which hosts them. For example, genes want to be passed, but the use of contraception is detrimental to this, and the host wins the struggle against the genes.

I do not see the point of making claim like that unless you were insisting that genes have their own interests in mind.

Have you read him. It seems not.

Devrim

Devrim
11th June 2008, 18:33
So one can be a bourgeois ideologue without being a reactionary, awful or not?

Well, yes we could (and do) argue that all factions of the bourgeoisie are reactionary. To me though the idea of 'awful' reactionary implies something much worse than Dawkins.

Devrim

Devrim
11th June 2008, 18:34
Unhappily, this is not what seems to interest people. People are interested in his religious atheism, and in his foolish pseudo-science of "memetics".

It is what interests me about his work. I read 'the God Delusion' and thought it was easily his worst book.

Devrim

Luís Henrique
11th June 2008, 18:58
The Neo-Darwinist synthesis, which Dawkins upholds, is generally considered to be correct in scientific circles.

He upholds a quite peculiar variant of neodarwinism - which can hardly be called a consensus among scientific circles. He also upholds a completely unscientific pseudo-sociological "theory", which no serious sociologist would even start considering.

Luís Henrique

Luís Henrique
11th June 2008, 19:00
Well, yes we could (and do) argue that all factions of the bourgeoisie are reactionary. To me though the idea of 'awful' reactionary implies something much worse than Dawkins.

So we can agree that Dawkins is a reactionary - albeit not of the awful subespecies?

What kind(s) of reactionaries are not awful, for further reference?

Luís Henrique

Luís Henrique
11th June 2008, 19:04
There we have it. Biology is reactionary.

Not quite. But "memetics" surely are, as well as religious atheism and vulgar materialism.

Luís Henrique

Led Zeppelin
11th June 2008, 19:09
Haha, why do both you have to respond to each post with a separate post?

Can't you just reply to several responses in one post while changing the quote tag to read "quote by ..." or "Originally Posted by"? :p

Luís Henrique
11th June 2008, 19:12
Haha, why do both you have to respond to each post with a separate post?

Because it is aestethically more satisfactory.

Luís Henrique

Luís Henrique
11th June 2008, 19:13
Can't you just reply to several responses in one post while changing the quote tag to read "quote by ..."? :p

No...

Luís Henrique

Pawn Power
11th June 2008, 19:19
To clarify (because either the author of the article has not read Dawkins or has wholly misunderstood his work) the selfish gene does not refer to the organism but to the actual gene.

Luís Henrique
11th June 2008, 19:36
To clarify (because either the author of the article has not read Dawkins or has wholly misunderstood his work) the selfish gene does not refer to the organism but to the actual gene.

Yes, he means "the selfish gene", not "the gene of selfishness". It doesn't make it any better.

Luís Henrique

Pawn Power
11th June 2008, 19:46
Yes, he means "the selfish gene", not "the gene of selfishness". It doesn't make it any better.

Luís Henrique

I don't know what you mean by "better."

But what he isn't suggesting is that these "selfish genes" necessarily fuse into selfish organisms. On the contrary, he agrees with other scientists' proposals that genetics presuppose many organisms into interacting in a cooperative manner.

Luís Henrique
11th June 2008, 20:05
But what he isn't suggesting is that these "selfish genes" necessarily fuse into selfish organisms.

No, he doesn't say anything about selfish organisms. What he says is that evolution happens exclusively, or mainly, at the gene level - ie, that it is not fitter organisms who survive, but fitter genes that replicate.

It is a clearly absurd point of view.


On the contrary, he agrees with other scientists' proposals that genetics presuppose many organisms into interacting in a cooperative manner.

Yes, he is able to recognise that happens. But this is an old thing he merely repeats.

Luís Henrique

MarxSchmarx
11th June 2008, 21:36
What he says is that evolution happens exclusively, or mainly, at the gene level - ie, that it is not fitter organisms who survive, but fitter genes that replicate.

It is a clearly absurd point of view.

Although I agree that the view that selection operates only at the genetic level is untenable, I must confess this is not clearly absurd to me. Yes, it is based on a bourgeois understanding of society and tries to analogize from our individualist, alienated conception of society to biology. However in principle, there is nothing wrong with this view, even if Dawkins himself goes perilously close to metaphysical exaltation of it. With the possible exception of intra-genome cohesiveness, there is no self-contradictory reference in this theory. Still, the extent to which selection operate at the genetic level is an empirical one, not a theoretical one. It is only that there are sporadic examples of, for example, group selection, which contradict the universalism Dawkins seeks to claim for this process.



Quote:
On the contrary, he agrees with other scientists' proposals that genetics presuppose many organisms into interacting in a cooperative manner.
Yes, he is able to recognise that happens. But this is an old thing he merely repeats.

To be fair, Dawkins was initially concerned with the problem of how cooperative behavior (in birds, I believe) can be reconciled with obtuse selfishness.

If you really want to talk about Dawkin's lipservice, we can focus on his cursory dismissal of cooperation between genes in a genome. This, I think, does present a very real conceptual problem to the view that individual organisms don't operate (or never did operate) as the unit of selection.

Indeed, an integration of the "selfish gene" approach to biology that also deals with the question of intra-genomic cohesiveness necessary for selfish genes to operate, will help show that self-interest is neither traded-off nor contradictory to social harmony - put another way, communism is good for the individual. But we already knew that.

mikelepore
11th June 2008, 21:42
Why was memetics described here as reactionary? I knew it was loosely defined, not rigorous, a hand-waving argument -- but I didn't know it was reactionary.

Module
11th June 2008, 23:36
No, he doesn't say anything about selfish organisms. What he says is that evolution happens exclusively, or mainly, at the gene level - ie, that it is not fitter organisms who survive, but fitter genes that replicate.

It is a clearly absurd point of view.

Why is it an absurd point of view?
Dawkins recognises natural selection on an organism, and also group scale, though I haven't read 'The Selfish Gene', other books;
Genes are what an organism passes down, and what determine an organism in the first place. So I don't see why it is then absurd to see natural selection on a genetic scale either.

Dawkins says that genes can make an organism 'fitter' for the pure means on the gene's survival, such as an organism that favours 'genetic kin' and so increases the gene's chance of having copies of itself.
I don't see why that is an absurd idea at all.
(Though maybe I've misunderstood you?)
:)

Module
11th June 2008, 23:39
Why was memetics described here as reactionary? I knew it was loosely defined, not rigorous, a hand-waving argument -- but I didn't know it was reactionary.
Neither do I. What exactly is reactionary about it? A science is a science - you can prove or disprove it, but science seeks to discover 'fact', which isn't something you can associate the terms 'reactionary' or 'revolutionary' with.

Zurdito
11th June 2008, 23:57
Neither do I. What exactly is reactionary about it? A science is a science - you can prove or disprove it, but science seeks to discover 'fact', which isn't something you can associate the terms 'reactionary' or 'revolutionary' with.

so "science" which claims to have "discovered" that some races arre naturally more intelligent than others is not reactionary?

A scientist can be reactionary for example if they portray findings as down to one "natural" cause whilst choosing to ignore the effect social relationships have on the results they studied. To choose to ignore this is an ideological decision and it rests on certain assumptions about human nature and the unvierse which are not scientifically justified, but ideological.

Also, when a scientist like Dawkins tries to apply his "rationalist" ideology based on empirical research to the real world, he msot certainyl is reactionary. His demand is that as he can show that there is no justification for God, all believers regardless of class must drop their fait isntantly and stopt heir "religious" struggles, whether they are under occupation or whether they are the occupiers!

Module
12th June 2008, 00:07
so "science" which claims to have "discovered" that some races arre naturally more intelligent than others is not reactionary?

A scientist can be reactionary for example if they portray findings as down to one "natural" cause whilst choosing to ignore the effect social relationships have on the results they studied. To choose to ignore this is an ideological decision and it rests on certain assumptions about human nature and the unvierse which are not scientifically justified, but ideological.

Also, when a scientist like Dawkins tries to apply his "rationalist" ideology based on empirical research to the real world, he msot certainyl is reactionary. His demand is that as he can show that there is no justification for God, all believers regardless of class must drop their fait isntantly and stopt heir "religious" struggles, whether they are under occupation or whether they are the occupiers!
I don't know whether or not you read the thread, but I was referring to memetics.
Scientists as individuals can be reactionary, but science itself cannot.
Declaring that certain races are naturally superior based on shaky evidence and predisposed ideas is reactionary, but seeking certain differences between people of race, sex, sexuality etc. fairly and objectively is not reactionary - it is scientific.
A belief which cannot be substantiated however is no use to anybody. You cannot pick and choose what is and isn't fact - and people finding certain scientific realities which go against your ideal does not make the science reactionary, and it certainly does not make them reactionary.

Zurdito
12th June 2008, 00:21
[quote]I don't know whether or not you read the thread, but I was referring to memetics.

yes but you made a quote referring to the whole of science, not jsut to memetics, therefore, it applied beyond what the original thread was about.



Scientists as individuals can be reactionary, but science itself cannot.


What, so "science" exists outside of the individuals who practice it?



Declaring that certain races are naturally superior based on shaky evidence and predisposed ideas is reactionary, but seeking certain differences between people of race, sex, sexuality etc. fairly and objectively is not reactionary - it is scientific.


No. I think there is a confusion here. Science operates on two levels, theory and fact. Simple fact finding can't be reactionary in itself, clearly a fact can't be reactionary or progressive, it's just a fact. However a theory can be reactionary, because perhaps the scientist rejects socially constructed causes for their findings and constructs a theory which essentialises certain qualities or behaviour based on their ideological misunderstanding of the way the universe and humans work - i.e., an anti-marxist, "rationalist" understanding.

You seem to be operating on the assumption that all science is is simple fact finding and the discovery of indisputable, or at least in theory empirically proveable, truths. This isn't the case.

Seeing as memetics is a theory, then I can see how it could be argued to be reactionary. Not that I know whether this particular theory is.

Module
12th June 2008, 00:56
What, so "science" exists outside of the individuals who practice it?
What science is remains the same no matter who practices it.



No. I think there is a confusion here. Science operates on two levels, theory and fact. Simple fact finding can't be reactionary in itself, clearly a fact can't be reactionary or progressive, it's just a fact. However a theory can be reactionary, because perhaps the scientist rejects socially constructed causes for their findings and constructs a theory which essentialises certain qualities or behaviour based on their ideological misunderstanding of the way the universe and humans work - i.e., an anti-marxist, "rationalist" understanding.
A theory which is based on genuity and objectivity is not in itself reactionary because it is simply a scientific theory. The motives behind the proposition of a theory can be reactionary - and as I said if it is not investigated scientifically then it can't really be called a scientific theory at all.


You seem to be operating on the assumption that all science is is simple fact finding and the discovery of indisputable, or at least in theory empirically proveable, truths. This isn't the case.
Science is 'fact finding' in the sense that it seeks to improve human understanding of the world. That is what science is.
I've never suggested that theories are indisputable, merely stated that science seeks to find truth and understanding - and that which doesn't isn't science - it's pseudo-science.


Seeing as memetics is a theory, then I can see how it could be argued to be reactionary. Not that I know whether this particular theory is.
Memetics is the theory that certain aspects of culture are passed down from generation to generation in a way similar to genetic 'natural selection'. Those fittest aspects of a culture continue to survive; and those weakest do not. Such as aspects of a culture which are easily adaptable - like.. eating popcorn at movies.. for example. Whereas others which are not - such as ... gladiatorial fighting. (I obviously could've used better examples, but you get the drift :lol:)

jake williams
12th June 2008, 02:56
It really doesn't sound like any of you have ever read the book.

- He makes it very explicit that he only talks about the "selfishness of genes" is metaphorical, is shorthand for explaining observed behaviour. That a gene which promotes its own promotion, at the expense of others or not, will do well is both the basic idea of the theory of evolution and seems to be confirmed by observation, though not being an evolutionary biologist I can't comment on this explicitly.

- He also makes clear that this doesn't mean he likes selfishness - or, necessarily, any of the morality which can spring from evolution. As a sensible scientist he acknowledges that nature is an amoral process. Near the end of the book, though, he talks about some ways in which cooperation can be a useful evolutionary strategy. It reads like it's coming from a position of hope, but not baseless hope.

- If good, careful, fare science confirms ideas we might not like, that doesn't invalidate science - that validates ideas which we don't like. That's unfortunate, but sometimes honesty is.

Kami
12th June 2008, 04:00
An open letter from dawkins regarding the "selfish" gene
http://media.richarddawkins.net/documents/2008/Reply_to_Midgley.pdf
An interesting read.

Now, Dawkins is an evolutionary biologist. He's rocked that particular field with his revolutionary theories, which have come to be near universally accepted. He has done more for the understanding of science than anyone else in said field as well. Sure, he's no leftist, but that doesn't really matter; he's a scientist, and as far as we know, he's right a lot of the time.
Also, he's done a lot at bringing down something we can all agree is reactionary; Religion.

Pifreak
12th June 2008, 06:21
The main reason why Dawkins is so famous is because he's controversial. There's probably a bunch of other books like his, except they aren't as blunt like his theories (facts). Because The Selfish Gene was completely new, it generated a lot of discussion, leading to tons of books being bought, and his rise to fame.

Lost In Translation
12th June 2008, 16:47
The main reason why Dawkins is so famous is because he's controversial. There's probably a bunch of other books like his, except they aren't as blunt like his theories (facts). Because The Selfish Gene was completely new, it generated a lot of discussion, leading to tons of books being bought, and his rise to fame.

Well..there is "The God Delusion", which has Christians in my school fuming. However, that book cannot be completely understood without reading the other books first, or you would think that he hates all religion.

Luís Henrique
12th June 2008, 18:54
Why was memetics described here as reactionary? I knew it was loosely defined, not rigorous, a hand-waving argument -- but I didn't know it was reactionary.Neither do I. What exactly is reactionary about it? A science is a science - you can prove or disprove it, but science seeks to discover 'fact', which isn't something you can associate the terms 'reactionary' or 'revolutionary' with.

Memetics is not science. It is a stupid unscientific pseudotheory. The fact that it has been proposed by a scientist doesn't make it more scientific than Newton believing in demons make demonology a science.

It is reactionary as it proposes that social change is the result of the activity of "memes", which act independent of human beings.

Luís Henrique

Luís Henrique
12th June 2008, 19:12
Although I agree that the view that selection operates only at the genetic level is untenable, I must confess this is not clearly absurd to me.

Selection clearly does not operate at the gene level, but at the individual level. Genes merely replicate; they do not change of themselves, but are randomly changed by mutation. Plus there it is confusing to say that my genes are the same as my mothers - they codify the same information, but very obviously they are differen material objects.

Evolution requires three different things - replication, mutation, and selection. Genes do not actively mutate, and they are not directly selected - it is only their phenotypical expression that is selected (and even then, only in relation to environment). Dawkins idea has some shock value (no, you don't like Mozart, it is the genes inside you that replicate better if you appear to like Mozart), but to the extent that it isn't simply wrong it is utterly impossible to put to a scientific test.

Luís Henrique

Kami
13th June 2008, 04:13
Luis Henrique, I didn't realise you were such a qualified evolutionary biologist. your half-baked opinions, despite not being backed up by anything bar a misplaced call for absurdity, are obviously much wiser than the currently held scientific model.

Pifreak
13th June 2008, 04:51
Evolution, in the non-selective pressure environment we live in, will only happen through mutation. It will happen if:
1. a mutated sperm is created;
2. it manages to survive and get to the uterus;
3. it picks the right Fallopian tube;
4. it survives to be one of the ~50 sperm that get to the egg;
5. it manages to be the only one that fertilizes it;
6. the egg matures and survives any possibility of miscarriage;
7. isn't aborted if it happens to be a girl in India or China; and
8. survives childbirth.

Of course, if the mutation isn't helpful in any way (i.e. it only makes half their brain develop and not double it), the baby will die, or if it survives, it probably won't reproduce and have its descendants take over the world (population-wise).

mikelepore
13th June 2008, 06:56
The cultural meme is probably a name for something that it real but no one understand yet. It is inexplicable why a person will occasionally make up a figure of speech or a joke, and not necessarily a good example of one, and it very quickly spreads among hundreds of millions of people, while many more clever and notable things are often said and forgotten. It may be related to a complex system's hypersensitivity to initial conditions, like the butterfly effect.

Hit The North
13th June 2008, 10:37
The problem with the notion of a meme derives from any attempt to explain one level of phenomena (cultural) by another (biological) - it just doesn't work and isn't, in fact, necessary. We have many ways to explain the reproduction of cultural norms and values which do not rely upon some reified biological process.

The attempt to reduce complex human behaviour to biological processes is - and always has been - reactionary, as Luis points out. For the simple reason that if something like, for instance, class, racial or gender inequality (all of which have been defended by 'science' at some point in its history) is claimed to be an aspect of our "nature" then it is generally considered as both permanent and desirable.

Vanguard1917
13th June 2008, 16:41
The problem with the notion of a meme derives from any attempt to explain one level of phenomena (cultural) by another (biological) - it just doesn't work and isn't, in fact, necessary. We have many ways to explain the reproduction of cultural norms and values which do not rely upon some reified biological process.

The attempt to reduce complex human behaviour to biological processes is - and always has been - reactionary, as Luis points out. For the simple reason that if something like, for instance, class, racial or gender inequality (all of which have been defended by 'science' at some point in its history) is claimed to be an aspect of our "nature" then it is generally considered as both permanent and desirable.


Well put.

Also, Dawkins' endorsement of the utterly backward and idiotic 'post-speciest' ideas of Peter Singer goes to show that abandoning delusions in god doesn't necessarily mean you've embraced either rationality or humanism. Swapping one irrationalism for another hardly equals progress.

Luís Henrique
13th June 2008, 18:14
Luis Henrique, I didn't realise you were such a qualified evolutionary biologist.

No, I am not. Still I do manage to realise when a evolutionary biologist is saying stupid things about subjects s/he doesn't understand (as Dawkins does about social science, with his "memetics", and, less famously, about cosmology, in his The God Delusion).


your half-baked opinions, despite not being backed up by anything bar a misplaced call for absurdity, are obviously much wiser than the currently held scientific model.The currently held scientific model is not that of Dawkins.

Luís Henrique

Devrim
13th June 2008, 19:44
Luis Henrique, I didn't realise you were such a qualified evolutionary biologist.No, I am not. Still I do manage to realise when a evolutionary biologist is saying stupid things about subjects s/he doesn't understand (as Dawkins does about social science, with his "memetics", and, less famously, about cosmology, in his The God Delusion).

Actually, you were referring to evolution. Something that he obviously does understand:


No, he doesn't say anything about selfish organisms. What he says is that evolution happens exclusively, or mainly, at the gene level - ie, that it is not fitter organisms who survive, but fitter genes that replicate.

It is a clearly absurd point of view.

Please show how it is absurd.


The currently held scientific model is not that of Dawkins.

Actually, I think it is.

Devrim

Luís Henrique
13th June 2008, 21:28
Actually, you were referring to evolution. Something that he obviously does understand:

Two things: first, his "memetics" theory is just plain simply pseudoscience. Second, his particular views about evolution, and genes being the only relevant level regarding selection, while evidently not pseudoscientifical in and of themselves, are an ideologisation of the role of genes, and ignore the importance of interaction of genes among a genome. Indeed, he argues that to a gene, even other genes in the same organism are best understood as "environment".


Actually, I think it is.

No, it is not. Of course, he partakes in the general consensus that Darwin was essentially correct; but his particular views (genecentric selection, reductionism) are at best contentious. Many other biologists, like Maynard Smith, Lewontin, Rose, and most notedly Stephen Jay Gould, disagree with such views.

Luís Henrique

Devrim
13th June 2008, 23:28
Two things: first, his "memetics" theory is just plain simply pseudoscience. Second, his particular views about evolution, and genes being the only relevant level regarding selection, while evidently not pseudoscientifical in and of themselves, are an ideologisation of the role of genes, and ignore the importance of interaction of genes among a genome. Indeed, he argues that to a gene, even other genes in the same organism are best understood as "environment".

But we weren't talking about "memetics". We were talking about this:


No, he doesn't say anything about selfish organisms. What he says is that evolution happens exclusively, or mainly, at the gene level - ie, that it is not fitter organisms who survive, but fitter genes that replicate.

It is a clearly absurd point of view.

Please, explain why it is absurd.


No, it is not. Of course, he partakes in the general consensus that Darwin was essentially correct; but his particular views (genecentric selection, reductionism) are at best contentious. Many other biologists, like Maynard Smith, Lewontin, Rose, and most notedly Stephen Jay Gould, disagree with such views.

Actually, it is the mainstream, and not contentious at all. From the people you mention JMS actually was on Dawkin's side, and Gould's ideas are completely marginalised within the scientific community.

Devrim

mikelepore
14th June 2008, 06:33
I don't see such an attempt to explain cultural phenomena from the biological. He just mentions them in the same text. He says that an idea, if it has a psychological payoff, or due to some other reason, may spread like a virus does. He notes that there are _other people_ who seek a biological explanation. I copy the following from _The Selfish Gene_, chapter 11, paragraphs 10-12:

[beginning quotation]

Examples of memes are tunes, ideas, catch-phrases, clothes fashions, ways of making pots or of building arches. Just as genes propagate themselves in the gene pool by leaping from body to body via sperms or eggs, so memes propagate themselves in the meme pool by leaping from brain to brain via a process which, in the broad sense, can be called imitation. If a scientist hears, or reads about, a good idea, he passes it on to his colleagues and students. He mentions it in his articles and his lectures. If the idea catches on, it can be said to propagate itself, spreading from brain to brain. As my colleague N. K. Humphrey neatly summed up an earlier draft of this chapter:'... memes should be regarded as living structures, not just metaphorically but technically. When you plant a fertile meme in my mind you literally parasitize my brain, turning it into a vehicle for the meme's propagation in just the way that a virus may parasitize the genetic mechanism of a host cell. And this isn't just a way of talking-the meme for, say, "belief in life after death" is actually realized physically, millions of times over, as a structure in the nervous systems of individual men the world over.'

Consider the idea of God. We do not know how it arose in the meme pool. Probably it originated many times by independent 'mutation'. In any case, it is very old indeed. How does it replicate itself? By the spoken and written word, aided by great music and great art. Why does it have such high survival value? Remember that 'survival value' here does not mean value for a gene in a gene pool, but value for a meme in a meme pool. The question really means: What is it about the idea of a god that gives it its stability and penetrance in the cultural environment? The survival value of the god meme in the meme pool results from its great psychological appeal. It provides a superficially plausible answer to deep and troubling questions about existence. It suggests that injustices in this world may be rectified in the next. The 'everlasting arms' hold out a cushion against our own inadequacies which, like a doctor's placebo, is none the less effective for being imaginary. These are some of the reasons why the idea of God is copied so readily by successive generations of individual brains. God exists, if only in the form of a meme with high survival value, or infective power, in the environment provided by human culture.

Some of my colleagues have suggested to me that this account of the survival value of the god meme begs the question. In the last analysis they wish always to go back to 'biological advantage'. To them it is not good enough to say that the idea of a god has 'great psychological appeal'. They want to know why it has great psychological appeal. Psychological appeal means appeal to brains, and brains are shaped by natural selection of genes in gene-pools. They want to find some way in which having a brain like that improves gene survival.

[end of quotation]

R_P_A_S
14th June 2008, 07:28
I enjoy dawkins investigation, conclusions and just the way he turns religion upside down. however he does come off as an arrogant asshole and attacks anyone who believes in god, puts them down, etc.

Pifreak
14th June 2008, 21:50
I enjoy dawkins investigation, conclusions and just the way he turns religion upside down. however he does come off as an arrogant asshole and attacks anyone who believes in god, puts them down, etc.

Well, he has to be one, otherwise no one would really care about him.

ÑóẊîöʼn
14th June 2008, 22:04
I've never seen any indication that memetics or memetic explanations necesarily preclude any kind of materialist cause or foundation. I suspect that this is just another example of orthodox Marxist pseudo-intellectuals getting their underwear in a bunch.


I enjoy dawkins investigation, conclusions and just the way he turns religion upside down. however he does come off as an arrogant asshole and attacks anyone who believes in god, puts them down, etc.

Quotes or it never happened. Dawkins is positively mild in his attacks on religion.

You should hear me speak after hearing of the latest religous atrocities!