Who are the speical interests [in America]?

[IcarusAngel]

"In both the 1980 and the 1984 elections, they (the Reagan administration) identified the Democrats as the "party of special interests," and that's supposed to be bad, becuase we're all against the special interests. But if you look closely and ask who were the special interests, they listed them: women, poor people, workers, young people, old people, ethnic minorities -- in fact, the entire population. There was only one group that was not listed among the special interests: corporations. if you'll notice the campaign rhetoric, that was never a special interest, and that's right because in their terms that's the national interest. So if you think it through, the population are the special interests and the corporations are the national interests, and since everyone's in favor of the national interest and against the special interests, you vote for and support someone who's against hte population and is working for the corporations.

That is typically the case of the way the framework of thought is consciously manipulated by an effective choice and reshaping of terminology so as to make it difficult to understand what's happening in the world."

Noam Chomsky, Chronicles of Dissent, page 48.

Kind of like how Schwarzenegger claimed to be against the "speical interests" then took more corporatist special interest money than many other governors.

The Democratic Party's fundamental base is comprised of blacks and other minorities, the lower ends of the working class and especially the extreme poor, women, and the extremely educated, people doing post graduate work and stuff. And then of course other factions like liberal christians etc., etc., too small to notice.

This is in contrast to the Republican Party interests, which is the national interests, and their "base" is the Christian right, which actually gets along pretty well with the fiscal conservatives in comparison.

It was only a matter of time before these factions attacked one another, which is very beneficial to the power structure. The power structure did the same thing to white collar and blue collar workers.

In that case, you tended to have the educated and minorities favoring Obama, and women and and the working poor supporting Hillary (even though a lot of her husband's policies were a continuation of the disasterous Reagan/Bush policies).

The question is whether these factions come come together to support the Democrat in 2008, and I think they will. However, Democrats have a tendency to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, and they might do something stupid between now and the election -- mainly, listen to the advice of the Republicans. They also tend to nominate the least electable candidates -- I think Edwards if he had stayed on message would have been a shoe-in.

[Bud Struggle]

I like Obama--but ultimately, McCain will win. Nobody really like too much socialism in America. Americans love everybody but think everyone should pay their own bills. Help once in a while when things are down--fine with that, but most Americans are against a free ride--thet's why Bush--THE WORST CANDIDATE IN THE WORLD--got elected twice.

That's also why Communism in America doesn't really exist.

[Chapter 24]

I like Obama--but ultimately, McCain will win. Nobody really like too much socialism in America. Americans love everybody but think everyone should pay their own bills. Help once in a while when things are down--fine with that, but most Americans are against a free ride--thet's why Bush--THE WORST CANDIDATE IN THE WORLD--got elected twice.

That's also why Communism in America doesn't really exist.

A typical American can be seethingly cyncial toward socialism and policies which they might view advocating as such, but that is most likely a result of the decades of media coverage on "socialist countries" that they have "proved" to have a negative impact. And then, what defines socialism? Is universal health care necessarily "socialism", or just something that plenty of western nations have adopted (no, not just big bad Cuba). What type of socialism is Obama advocating? But I guess one nation's "far-left socialist" - the U.S. - is another's moderate.

[Jazzratt]

I like Obama--but ultimately, McCain will win. Nobody really like too much socialism in America. Americans love everybody but think everyone should pay their own bills. Help once in a while when things are down--fine with that, but most Americans are against a free ride--thet's why Bush--THE WORST CANDIDATE IN THE WORLD--got elected twice.

That's also why Communism in America doesn't really exist.

This is what really worries me about America, when right-of-centre candidates worry people because they're too socialist.

[Bud Struggle]

This is what really worries me about America, when right-of-centre candidates worry people because they're too socialist.

The basic theory of America is "Fuck You." I don't need anyone, I don't rely on anyone, I make my own way through life. I have my gun and my business and my land and my family, and if you screw with any of them it will be hell to pay for you.

Now it really doesn't work that way. We have common services and common schools and common laws and common roads. A common army and common oil interests. We are indeed a commonwealth.

But we like to think of ourselves as stark individualists.

[KrazyRabidSheep]

The basic theory of America is "Fuck You." I don't need anyone, I don't rely on anyone, I make my own way through life. I have my gun and my business and my land and my family, and if you screw with any of them it will be hell to pay for you.
This is the impression I get when I'm in Missouri. I call it the "cowboy" mentality.


Now it really doesn't work that way. We have common services and common schools and common laws and common roads. A common army and common oil interests. We are indeed a commonwealth.
This is somewhat more true in Illinois in my experience. If you get far enough away from the city, however, the "cowboy mentality" becomes more common.


But we like to think of ourselves as stark individualists.
I'd say rather then actual individuals, there are pockets of different demographics.
Somebody from New York fits in well in New York, but is quite different then someone from California, for example.

This is true in any country, but the vast distances in the U.S. allow greater range of demographics (by area).

[redSHARP]

there is a website from a non-profit group that lists every special interests group ( i forgot it). i can run down a list right now:

christian right
jewish/israel lobby
gun control
abortion
enviromental
tobacoo
a weed lobby
corporations
cotton
hemp
state rights
liberal
military
multiple liberal and right wing thinktanks
AARP
AFL-CIO
Unions
Gay rights
Anti-Gay
Media
NAACP
Hispanic
Anti-immigrant
feminist

these are all lobbys or special interst groups. now if tobacco is giving your campaign money, would you pass legislation against tobacco? fuck no! that is the flaw in democracy. if a candidate says "my opponet is a socialist or commie" then the opponent is assasinated by the media and his career is over. yay democracy!

[IcarusAngel]

The basic theory of America is "Fuck You." I don't need anyone, I don't rely on anyone, I make my own way through life. I have my gun and my business and my land and my family, and if you screw with any of them it will be hell to pay for you.

Now it really doesn't work that way. We have common services and common schools and common laws and common roads. A common army and common oil interests. We are indeed a commonwealth.

But we like to think of ourselves as stark individualists.


Shows the propaganda system is in full effect. What is happening there is, they emphasizing a certain kind of individualism. This kind of individualism says, "get to the top in the capitalist system, own as many wage slaves as you can," and that's about it.

This same kind of reasoning is inherent in other right-wing dictatorships, such as Nazism. This is the kind of "individulism" Hitler and Stalin practiced.

America also has very bad collectivism as well. Religion being one. Lots of group think there. Corporations are of course very collectivist as well, like "hives," with a leader at the top (the "individuals," I guess). Very much conformist here, where creativity is shunned upon and there is little control. You can make suggestions and that's about it.

[RGacky3]

The basic theory of America is "Fuck You." I don't need anyone, I don't rely on anyone, I make my own way through life. I have my gun and my business and my land and my family, and if you screw with any of them it will be hell to pay for you.

Now it really doesn't work that way. We have common services and common schools and common laws and common roads. A common army and common oil interests. We are indeed a commonwealth.

But we like to think of ourselves as stark individualists.

Thats partially the origins of the history of the American left, look at the history of the IWW, a lot of it is based on the American "Fuck you" attitude, only they are saying it to the government, the Capitalist, and the general american elite, we don't need to kiss the boss's ass, we don't need to state to hand us crums, we, American individualistic working people, are going to get together, organize, and take whats ours.

That can also be seen in th Black Panthers, the Miners Strikes in the 20's, the draft resisters in the 60s.

Unfortunately, the right in America, amazing propegandists as they are, have tried to put a monopoly on that, as they have everything 'American'. Which is rediculous, because in a way, dissent and resistance is as American as Applie Pie and the IWW.

[IcarusAngel]

Plus TomK is talking out of his ass again.

Obama is ahead in the polls (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html), while McCain is going down, seems to be ahead in the electoral college (http://electoral-vote.com/), and some analysists have predicted (http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/13/election-08-markets-and-models/) Obama will win.

I agree, though, that Obama is center right. I've never voted for a democrat as president and don't plan to start now, but I would of course think Obama would be less imperialist than the Republicans.

[Robert]

Obama is ahead in the polls (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html), while McCain is going down

I have to agree that Obama will likely win, though that doesn't mean Tom is "talking out of his ass" with his prediction that McCain will win. Remember the early months of the Republican primary campaigns?

This was the picture on June, 2007:

• Giuliani was the choice of 24%, vs. 23% a week ago.
• Thompson is also the choice of 24%, vs. his 17% support a week ago.
• Mitt Romney and Sen. John McCain were tied at third, with 11% support each (vs. 15% a week ago for Romney and 14% for McCain).

There was a lot more separating McCain from Giuliani then than separates McCain from Obama now.

My prediction for the general election: Obama by 7%.

[Bud Struggle]

Plus TomK is talking out of his ass again.

Obama is ahead in the polls (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html), while McCain is going down, seems to be ahead in the electoral college (http://electoral-vote.com/), and some analysists have predicted (http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/13/election-08-markets-and-models/) Obama will win.

I agree, though, that Obama is center right. I've never voted for a democrat as president and don't plan to start now, but I would of course think Obama would be less imperialist than the Republicans.

I believe I wrote that when they were dead even in the polls. Besides--things will go up and down till the election. ALSO Obama has a history of doing much better in polling than in actual voting. Not that that matters right now.

It's a long time till the election. I personally think McCain's going to win, but I could be wrong.

[eyedrop]

Just to chip in here;

If you bet on Obama you get 1.52 back if he wins, while betting on Cain gives you back 2.88. Source (https://www.betsson.com/no/exchange/index.asp)