Death By Communism/Socialism - Typical

[Brian]

Country/Experiment Death count

Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics (USSR): 20,000,000

People's Republic of China:65,000,000

Vietnam (North & South): 1,000,000

North Korea:2,000,000

Cambodia:2,000,000

Eastern Europe (thanks to FDR):1,000,000

Latin America:150,000

Africa:1,700,000

Afghanistan:1,500,000

Cuba:15,000

TOTAL:92,365,000


http://www.jos-cu-ei.home.ro/index_files/T...Texte/DEATH.htm (http://www.jos-cu-ei.home.ro/index_files/Texte/DEATH.htm)

[Anonymous]

Yeah, communism has a nasty habit of doing that to people.

(Edited by Dark Capitalist at 7:11 am on Oct. 6, 2002)

[Lardlad95]

First of all Cuba is part of Latin America

Second why does everyone group Africa together like it's one damn country

Go there people it's a contineint not a country

second are you doing this as in how many people died during their communist governments? Or how many the government killed

Cuz I'm sure I can find out how many people have been put to death in the US

executions

assasinations

mob lynchings that the government didn't care to stop

[queen of diamonds]

While communism has certainly resulted in a great number of deaths, many of which could have easily been avoided, it's worth remembering that we really don't have such stats. about the damage done in capitalist systems.

[Mazdak]

Can someone please drill it into the capitalists' heads that it was SOCIALISM. Communism hasn't existed. They died during socialism(despite the obvious exagerrations of that report).

[Xvall]

How are these deaths of 'communism'? As far as I have seen, these regimes killed people; not because they were communist, but because they had a bad habit of smashing dissent. These numbers have NO legitimate source, and they do not explain how it was 'communism', and not 'corruption' that caused these deaths. I could do the same thing.

Leopold the Second seeked wealth and money above all else (Capitalism): 20,000,000 Deaths...

Anywhere between fifty to ninety million people die of starvation because of capitalism annualy: (Average) 70,000,000

Wow! I've just tied your score! And that seventy million is ANUALLY. Add it up for the past few decades; what do you have?

(Edited by Drake Dracoli at 7:03 pm on Oct. 6, 2002)


(Edited by Drake Dracoli at 7:04 pm on Oct. 6, 2002)

[James]

Why bother replying? I never thought i'd say this, but the quality of capitalist has decreased on this site... so far, that they resort to making stupid childish comments, and then refuse to back their poor arguments up.

[Moskitto]

I think drake dracoli's statistics are slightly exxagerated to be honest, but I did calculate that at the current rate of starvation you have a 100,000,000 death toll per decade.

And Leopold may well have killed more than Stalin, but Congo has been ravaged by wars over the last century so much that finding mass graves would be useless, and the person who uncovered Leopold's crimes was hung for homosexuality in the Tower of London.

[Xvall]

100,000,000 per decade; prehaps now. But how many people died due to capitalism in the middle ages? And during the industrial revolution? If people that 'communism' killed a century ago are still applicable, then the same must be applied towards capitalism.

[bluerev002]

hows about da ppl killed by bush?

indochina- 2 million
vietnam - 2 million
iraq - 1.5 mill
indonesea- 1 milion
southeast asia- 2 million
guatemala - 80,000
el salvador- 50,000
hungary-30,000
india-16,000

and this is info from a while back, i wonder what they coulda done in a recent time??? in capitalism these days it seems the only way to get money is by taking it from someone else. by killling stealing or whatever you have to do to get your moneys worth.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Mazdak on 6:51 pm on Oct. 6, 2002
Can someone please drill it into the capitalists' heads that it was SOCIALISM. Communism hasn't existed. They died during socialism(despite the obvious exagerrations of that report).


Whoa whoa whoa don't push communism's killings on US

atleast modern socialism

You can't say socialism because that is to general

there are like four hundred types of socialism

Authoritarian Socialism (communism)

Democratic Socialism (also known as "the right way")

Afro-Socialism

European Socialism

pick one

[Nateddi]

those numbers are bullshit.

they blame deaths of wars as socialism, they overinflate actual deaths. the source is probably from some sort of neo-nazis, by their "thanks to FDR" comment.

[Xvall]

Lard - Authoritarian Socialism is not 'Communism'. Where the hell do you get that?

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Drake Dracoli on 2:57 am on Oct. 7, 2002
Lard - Authoritarian Socialism is not 'Communism'. Where the hell do you get that?

Online Marxist Dictionary

[KickMcCann]

You know what kills more people than anything else? It's not socialism/communism, capitalism, or facism.

Nope, the biggest killer of humans is life. Think about it, from the beginning of the human race to today, how many people do you think have died? There are roughly 6-7 billion people on this planet right now, and they will all die. I'm not trying to be negative about it, it's just the way it is; death is a part of life, regardless of the social system you live under.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from KickMcCann on 3:10 am on Oct. 7, 2002
You know what kills more people than anything else? It's not socialism/communism, capitalism, or facism.

Nope, the biggest killer of humans is life. Think about it, from the beginning of the human race to today, how many people do you think have died? There are roughly 6-7 billion people on this planet right now, and they will all die. I'm not trying to be negative about it, it's just the way it is; death is a part of life, regardless of the social system you live under.

Actualy life creates more life than it kills

So it balances out.

The birth to death ratio is what keeps the world population growing

1 person dies for every 3 that are born.

So lets say teh population is 1 hundred

that means it will go up three then down one

101, 102,103

102

103,104,105

104

105,106,107


And the thing is that htis all happens in a matter of seconds all over the world.

So really the entire life if the biggest killer arguement isn't fair because life creates more life than it takes away

[queen of diamonds]

For argument's sake, let's say someone has two kids & then goes out and murders someone - they've created more life than they've destroyed, so they're not a killer?

That aside, neither communism (or socialism) or capitalism kills people. People kill people. People will kill people no matter what system they're under. So much for any system creating Utopia...

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from queen of diamonds on 6:45 am on Oct. 7, 2002
For argument's sake, let's say someone has two kids & then goes out and murders someone - they've created more life than they've destroyed, so they're not a killer?

That aside, neither communism (or socialism) or capitalism kills people. People kill people. People will kill people no matter what system they're under. So much for any system creating Utopia...


Did I say it wasn't a killer? No i said it created more life than it took away.

[Stormin Norman]

"indochina- 2 million
vietnam - 2 million
iraq - 1.5 mill
indonesea- 1 milion
southeast asia- 2 million
guatemala - 80,000
el salvador- 50,000
hungary-30,000
india-16,000"

Care to provide links that directly implicate Bush for these deaths? How about the U.S. government?

[Stormin Norman]

The numbers quoted by Brian are well established and accepted by those who do not wish to ignore the facts of the matter. "The Black Book of Communism" is an excellent source of information if you want to get into detailed accounts of the human rights abuses of these regimes and exactly how these numbers were arrived at. I find it troubling that the left wingers on this board wish to defend the atrocities committed and people like Mao who was by far the most efficient at ridding the world of population. Look up the history of Maoist or Stalinist policies sometime and you will understand my disgust for those who would try to downplay these important events. Next you guys will be trying to rationalize the Holocaust, claiming the death rates are grossly overexaggerated.

[new democracy]

Quote: from Nateddi on 12:56 am on Oct. 7, 2002
those numbers are bullshit.

they blame deaths of wars as socialism, they overinflate actual deaths. the source is probably from some sort of neo-nazis, by their "thanks to FDR" comment.

Nettedi, how many wars cuba was involved? this is mostly executions, and some of it are people who died fighting against the government in the escambray mountains rebellion(1,960-1,965, for full story go to this: http://www.alpha66.org/english/xfiles.htm ), and death in prisons and in the sea, moving to america.

[Xvall]

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 3:02 am on Oct. 7, 2002

Quote: from Drake Dracoli on 2:57 am on Oct. 7, 2002
Lard - Authoritarian Socialism is not 'Communism'. Where the hell do you get that?

Online Marxist Dictionary


No; Authoritarian Socialism is Authoritarian Socialism. Authoritarian Socialism has existed; and it has hardly resembled a classless moneyless society where the proletariot are in control.

[Mazdak]

Authoritarian Socialism is communist. Just using a different method to achieve the ideal state.

[Xvall]

Weather or not is is 'communistic' is irrelevant. I am stating that having 'authoritarian socialism' is not yet achieving 'communism'.

[Nateddi]

Mazdak, authoritarian socialism is not "communism".

This is not a contested argument, it is the truth. Stalinism was not communism, it was socialism. The soviet union did not consider itself a communist nation, socialist, yes. None of the so-called "communist" countries have never labeled themselves ever "communist".

"communist russia" is idiocy created by right wingers post revolution and the mccarthyist cold warriors. I grew up in the USSR, this is simply a truism. You can ask Kryuchkov, he can verify that the USSR was not "communist".

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Nateddi on 1:06 am on Oct. 8, 2002
Mazdak, authoritarian socialism is not "communism".

This is not a contested argument, it is the truth. Stalinism was not communism, it was socialism. The soviet union did not consider itself a communist nation, socialist, yes. None of the so-called "communist" countries have never labeled themselves ever "communist".

"communist russia" is idiocy created by right wingers post revolution and the mccarthyist cold warriors. I grew up in the USSR, this is simply a truism. You can ask Kryuchkov, he can verify that the USSR was not "communist".


ooooh Hell no don't push of the USSR on socialism.

Give it a specific name a specific form of socialsim I'm not being labeled with those people

[Xvall]

If you don't want us to say the USSR was socialist, then do not claim that the USSR was communist. It is generally acknowledged that the USSR was socialist; because that is what it stands for (United Soviet Socialist Republik). We are not implying that this form of socialism was 'pure' or 'perfect'; just stating what they called themselves.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Drake Dracoli on 1:50 am on Oct. 8, 2002
If you don't want us to say the USSR was socialist, then do not claim that the USSR was communist. It is generally acknowledged that the USSR was socialist; because that is what it stands for (United Soviet Socialist Republik). We are not implying that this form of socialism was 'pure' or 'perfect'; just stating what they called themselves.

Fine but socialist is vague

Communism is Socialism

Democratic Socialism is socialism

there are many types of socialism

so if we are to reffer to them then give them a specific type of sicalism

[Xvall]

I agree wholeheartedly.. Generalizations should not be made..

[bluerev002]

STORMIN NORMAN,

noooo i could not provide links cuz the site that this was on was shut down (wonder why). and no i dont think thsi stuff would be published, not quiet yet anyways, maybe in a few years when bush is NOT president. all thes deaths are coverd up. how many times do you hear on da tele "world bank kills more ppl" or how bush kills. well maybe they would but theyd make it seem as if it were a good thing. now how do those americans say......."YEEEEEEEHA GET THEM THERE TOWEL WEARIN TALIBANS!!! YEEEHA USMA YOUR MAMA!!!"

how barberic

[KickMcCann]

bluerev002: Judging by your numbers, Bush is responsible for the deaths of
8,676,000 people.

Ummm, Bush has only been president for about 2 years, so how can he be soley responsible for all those deaths?

I might agree if you said it was American foreign policy over the last 50 years, but not the last 2.

The story of history:

This is the timetable of political change; past, present, and future:

While the leftists are preoccupied arguing with eachother over the definition of words like socialism and communism; the Imperialists go unnoticed in taking over the world.

The folly of thinking people: They think too much. :cheesy:



(Edited by KickMcCann at 3:56 am on Oct. 8, 2002)

[Yars]

Quote: from Nateddi on 1:06 am on Oct. 8, 2002

The soviet union did not consider itself a communist nation, socialist, yes. None of the so-called "communist" countries have never labeled themselves ever "communist".



I quote the Soviet National Anthem of the USSR.

In the victory of Communism's deathless ideal,
We see the future of our dear land.
And to her fluttering scarlet banner,
Selflessly true we always shall stand...

Huh...funny how their anthem contains Communism...but hey...who I am I say?

[Mazdak]

Yes, thats because the ultimate goal is communism. That doesn't claim the USSR is communist either. Lenin was a communist. He implemented socialism in the USSR, but the goal of socialism is to achieve communism, is it not?

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Mazdak on 10:08 pm on Oct. 8, 2002
Yes, thats because the ultimate goal is communism. That doesn't claim the USSR is communist either. Lenin was a communist. He implemented socialism in the USSR, but the goal of socialism is to achieve communism, is it not?

No sir teh goal of marxism is for Socialism to achieve communism

Lenin followed little of Marx's initial plan not to mention Marx believed world wide revolution was inevitiable.

My goal as a socialsit is to remain socialsit not sell out into the bullshit guise of communism that denies political equality

[Guest]

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 10:38 pm on Oct. 8, 2002

No sir teh goal of marxism is for Socialism to achieve communism


I'm pretty sure that's what he meant...

and what of political equality...?

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Guest on 10:42 pm on Oct. 8, 2002

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 10:38 pm on Oct. 8, 2002

No sir teh goal of marxism is for Socialism to achieve communism


I'm pretty sure that's what he meant...

and what of political equality...?

Marx's goal was for socialism to achieve said communism

I'm a socialist on the previous fact I disagree with Marx like my fellow democratic socialists we don't agree with communism and don't want it for the following reason reffering to the Political equality

Communism allows no political equality

there is only one party and people's veiws are opressed

they aren't represented as a people

in communism teh government assumes what they want

[Xvall]

Quote: from Yars on 6:20 am on Oct. 8, 2002

Quote: from Nateddi on 1:06 am on Oct. 8, 2002

The soviet union did not consider itself a communist nation, socialist, yes. None of the so-called "communist" countries have never labeled themselves ever "communist".



I quote the Soviet National Anthem of the USSR.

In the victory of Communism's deathless ideal,
We see the future of our dear land.
And to her fluttering scarlet banner,
Selflessly true we always shall stand...

Huh...funny how their anthem contains Communism...but hey...who I am I say?



And the American anthem speaks of 'liberty' and 'freedom'.. it doesn't mean it's true. If the anthem said 'The Soviets with wings of power' would you assume that they had some interest in 'flight'?

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Drake Dracoli on 11:02 pm on Oct. 8, 2002

Quote: from Yars on 6:20 am on Oct. 8, 2002

Quote: from Nateddi on 1:06 am on Oct. 8, 2002

The soviet union did not consider itself a communist nation, socialist, yes. None of the so-called "communist" countries have never labeled themselves ever "communist".



I quote the Soviet National Anthem of the USSR.

In the victory of Communism's deathless ideal,
We see the future of our dear land.
And to her fluttering scarlet banner,
Selflessly true we always shall stand...

Huh...funny how their anthem contains Communism...but hey...who I am I say?



And the American anthem speaks of 'liberty' and 'freedom'.. it doesn't mean it's true. If the anthem said 'The Soviets with wings of power' would you assume that they had some interest in 'flight'?

come on Drake don't try to twist words

it's obvious in what context "Communism" is used in the song

[Moskitto]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 3:06 pm on Oct. 7, 2002
The numbers quoted by Brian are well established and accepted by those who do not wish to ignore the facts of the matter. "The Black Book of Communism" is an excellent source of information if you want to get into detailed accounts of the human rights abuses of these regimes and exactly how these numbers were arrived at. I find it troubling that the left wingers on this board wish to defend the atrocities committed and people like Mao who was by far the most efficient at ridding the world of population. Look up the history of Maoist or Stalinist policies sometime and you will understand my disgust for those who would try to downplay these important events. Next you guys will be trying to rationalize the Holocaust, claiming the death rates are grossly overexaggerated.


Werth (one of the contributors to the Black Book of Communism) disaccociated himself from Stephane Courtois because of the final death toll and the philosophical conclusions in the introduction.

Also this book ranked Nazism at 1/4 of the risk purely based on death toll (Nazism existed in 1 country for 12 years, Communism existed in 20+ countries over the space of 70 years.)

One of Courtois biggest fans is, Jean Marie Le Pen...

Werth also said that Robert Conquest is vastly exagerated, there goes Solz's myth of Stalin being biggest butcher of all time.

Try read "The Black Book Of Capitalism" in conjunction to this book.

[redstar2000]

For what it's worth, I suggest that "body count" arguments advanced by defenders of capitalism are intellectually dishonest.

What is the pretense here? You'd be all for communism, waving the red flag, and putting up barracades in the streets...if only communists didn't kill SO MANY people???

Because capitalists clearly don't mind killing people...they've been doing it off and on--mostly on--for the better part of the last 400 years.(!)

No, I just have this sneaking suspicion that pro-capitalists would hate and despise communism even had we never so much as broken the fingernail of an east coast heiress. Communism means the end of their mastery and the end of our slavery. THAT'S what really gets to them; the body counts are just window dressing.

[Yars]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 2:42 am on Oct. 9, 2002
For what it's worth, I suggest that "body count" arguments advanced by defenders of capitalism are intellectually dishonest.

What is the pretense here? You'd be all for communism, waving the red flag, and putting up barracades in the streets...if only communists didn't kill SO MANY people???

Because capitalists clearly don't mind killing people...they've been doing it off and on--mostly on--for the better part of the last 400 years.(!)

No, I just have this sneaking suspicion that pro-capitalists would hate and despise communism even had we never so much as broken the fingernail of an east coast heiress. Communism means the end of their mastery and the end of our slavery. THAT'S what really gets to them; the body counts are just window dressing.

well said comrade...

[bluerev002]

yes, well said red.


from what ive heard, bush has killed many in iraq, mostly children. i wouldnt be at all surprised if he killed 8mill, disgusted yes, bus surprised. naw not from a super power such as this one.

[queen of diamonds]

Quote: from Yars on 7:06 pm on Nov. 19, 2002
[quote]Quote: from redstar2000 on 2:42 am on Oct. 9, 2002
For what it's worth, I suggest that "body count" arguments advanced by defenders of capitalism are intellectually dishonest.

What is the pretense here? You'd be all for communism, waving the red flag, and putting up barracades in the streets...if only communists didn't kill SO MANY people???

Because capitalists clearly don't mind killing people...they've been doing it off and on--mostly on--for the better part of the last 400 years.(!)

No, I just have this sneaking suspicion that pro-capitalists would hate and despise communism even had we never so much as broken the fingernail of an east coast heiress. Communism means the end of their mastery and the end of our slavery. THAT'S what really gets to them; the body counts are just window dressing.

Personally, i'm ideologically opposed to socialism, but yes, I agree, based on the number of people that capitalism has killed over the years, I hardly think it's fair to oppose socialism in favour of capitalism on this account.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 10:42 am on Oct. 9, 2002
For what it's worth, I suggest that "body count" arguments advanced by defenders of capitalism are intellectually dishonest.
[/i

LOL Now that is one of the most convenient assertions I have ever read.



What is the pretense here? You'd be all for communism, waving the red flag, and putting up barracades in the streets...if only communists didn't kill SO MANY people???


Well, I don't know about the fellow you're addressing, but I certainly wouldn't have such a heavy distaste for Communism if they hadn't butchered so many people.



Because capitalists clearly don't mind killing people...they've been doing it off and on--mostly on--for the better part of the last 400 years.(!)


LOL Amusing. How many years do you need to add up to match the victims of Stalin and Mao combined?



No, I just have this sneaking suspicion that pro-capitalists would hate and despise communism even had we never so much as broken the fingernail of an east coast heiress.


We certainly wouldn't like you, but we wouldn't reville you if you Communists hadn't been responsible for so much savage butchery.

[i]
Communism means the end of their mastery and the end of our slavery.


Bollocks. Communism in its application means the enslavement of a populace to an ideological elite.

Even in its THEORETICAL state, it means the enslavement of the individual to the will of a mob.

Quote:
THAT'S what really gets to them; the body counts are just window dressing.


LOL The 'body counts' as you so casually refer to them are the nails in the coffin of the idea of Communism as a BENEVOLENT system. Capitalists disagree with you people on a fundamental level as well.

The bodies Communists leave in their wake are just physical manifestations of their darker nature.

(Edited by Sulla the Dictator at 1:13 pm on Oct. 12, 2002)

[Iepilei]

this is coming from a person advocating a system of economy that advocates nationalism as a form of economic revival.

[Sulla the Dictator]

this is coming from a person advocating a system of economy that advocates nationalism as a form of economic revival.

Utter nonsense. I advocate a system of economy distant from the state.

You don't see us having "May Day" parades.

[Xvall]

You do however have Colombus day parades; cheering on a slave owning, money-hungry, imperialist bastard. Why do you celebrate him anyways? He wasn't even American.

[PaulDavidHewson]

"Bollocks. Communism in its application means the enslavement of a populace to an ideological elite. "

I agree, Communisme is Collectivisme.
The theory of collectivism (in all its variants) holds that man is not an end to himself, but is only a tool to serve the ends of others. Collectivism, unlike individualism, holds the group as the primary, and the standard of moral value. Whether that group is a dictator's gang, the nation, society, the race, (the) god(s), the majority, the community, the tribe, etc., is irrelevant -- the point is that man in principle is a sacrificial victim, whose only value is his ability to sacrifice his happiness for the will of the "group".

[Iepilei]

it's merely a check on a currently un-checked power.

you want checks and balances in government, correct?