Why people become fascist ?

[punisa]

The title says it all.
I'm looking forward to see what you think why some people choose fascism or extreme right wing ideologies?
Is it somehow connected to the family influences, propaganda, religion? Is it a natural reaction to wars like a sort of PTSP (in areas hit by wars)?

What makes one hate other people just on the basis of their nationality/skin/religion ?
Where is all of this hate coming from? Personal disappointments? Lack of knowledge/education? Wrong knowledge/education?

You get my point, fire at will.

[Forward Union]

Because it offers to fulfill peoples needs. Food, Shelter, Security, Unity.

It times of strife it seems to be a good alternative, and it's a lot less complicated than the communist answer to these issues.

[Holden Caulfield]

scape-goating, propaganda and ignorance,
deep seated in grained nationalism/patriotism,

pretty much sums it up i think in tandem with what Wat said

[F9]

school teach the very little kids to love the countrie hate the "enemys",fear of the great god,and love with your life a flag and a nation.They teavh you the first step of nationalism and rascism,some kids who take those steps they decide ina more advance age to take it a step further and become fascists-rascists.religion morals make children to have a homophobic attitude etc.I see the problem to the way that people from little children are getting propagandised from assholes!

Fuserg9:star:

[rednordman]

Where is all of this hate coming from? Personal disappointments? Lack of knowledge/education? Wrong knowledge/education?.

Im starting to believe that education hasnt got that much to do with it so much anymore. People simply believe what they want to believe nowadays and it seems that they would rather stay ignorant to the honest truth rather than swallow their pride and accept it. (Such as how violent the British Empire was, not glorious as the kids at school are taught) As well as what you have all said, i believe that its this whole "wanting to belong" factor+when they are part of a party/group, picking on particular groups of people takes alot of heat off themselves (sad,insecure, bullies). After all, blaming absolutley everything that goes wrong in a country on imigration is not really original, smart or true, but if so many people are doing it, even respectable/intelligent people start agreeing with them even though we (and them) know that it is generally rubbish.

[punisa]

As well as what you have all said, i believe that its this whole "wanting to belong" factor+when they are part of a party/group, picking on particular groups of people takes alot of heat off themselves (sad,insecure, bullies).

Well said. Of course, Marxists also tend to belong in a community which understands them, but (hopefully) we do not do it for the sake of insecurity.

A leftist can operate much easier as a lone raider, while right wingers taken out of "collective" breaks down, as they can't defend themselves and usually do not have the arguments to do so. Resorting to loudness,shouting,aggression and similar crap only works if someone in the group/room/hall/street will back you up.

Facing a right winger 1 on 1 usually results in your win (if you've done your homework read, of course).

Again I'm pointing this out when faced with a conversation/debate, street fights and such are completely different topic (which I even don't want to address).

[Tower of Bebel]

People become fascists because they are influenced (of course), and this influence can range from education to politics. Yet, be on your guard: fascism is not just (a) mental (disorder).

Fascism's existance is a result of conditions which create it. fascism is bourgeois (or capitalist) reaction, which finds it's experession and realisation within capitalism's material conditions, namely of private property with the proletariat as it's counterpart (in short: class struggle).

So, to the trash can with the people's/popular front!

[Die Neue Zeit]

I wonder if people are turned off because nobody's advocating equally harsh measures on the bourgeoisie. :confused:

[Abner]

People turn to facism for different reasons. Some do it for power, because in a facist government, might makes right. Some people do it for their country, thinking that it would do them some good, make them powerful and glorious. I think the rest are mesmerized by the visions of grandeur that facism creates, and a feeling of family= "This is my country, this is what I fight for, this is what I love" And people would do anything for the family member who would help their family prosper.

[Kami]

In Britain, the Daily Mail is a big help; it highlights the issues Fascists claim to deal with. The BNP takes these (mostly fabricated) worries, and says it'll solve them.

[trivas7]

The title says it all.
I'm looking forward to see what you think why some people choose fascism or extreme right wing ideologies?
Is it somehow connected to the family influences, propaganda, religion? Is it a natural reaction to wars like a sort of PTSP (in areas hit by wars)?

What makes one hate other people just on the basis of their nationality/skin/religion ?
Where is all of this hate coming from? Personal disappointments? Lack of knowledge/education? Wrong knowledge/education?

You get my point, fire at will.
I am currently reading Norman Mailer's novel re the childhood of Adolf Hitler. Fascinating.

The roots of fascism are partly genetic, partly psychological. Eric Hoffer, Erich Fromm are to be consulted.

[Led Zeppelin]

I'm looking forward to see what you think why some people choose fascism or extreme right wing ideologies?
Is it somehow connected to the family influences, propaganda, religion? Is it a natural reaction to wars like a sort of PTSP (in areas hit by wars)?

What makes one hate other people just on the basis of their nationality/skin/religion ?
Where is all of this hate coming from? Personal disappointments? Lack of knowledge/education? Wrong knowledge/education?

All of what you said, basically.

Each person has their own story, you can't really lump people who choose to believe in something in the same category because they all have a different background, more or less.

I believe the main reasons are probably related to economic issues, such as poverty and unemployment.

[al8]

I wonder if people are turned off because nobody's advocating equally harsh measures on the bourgeoisie. :confused:

When I do that, strangly I am called a facists. It's such an abuse of language I get depressed. To some people being stern is the same as being a facists. If that is so I am a facist and proud of it.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ No - I mean in terms of what to do with the bourgeoisie AFTER the revolution (mass imprisonment, mass exile, mass slave labour, mass extermination) :(

For those working-class segments that really feed on some sort of "hate," we haven't discussed with them, using Stalinist phraseology, the [post-revolution] aggravation of the class struggle along with the [transition to] socialism. :(

[mikelepore]

why some people choose fascism or extreme right wing ideologies ........ What makes one hate other people just on the basis of their nationality/skin/religion

It's a conceptual problem. They correctly perceive that there are many social problems, and they correctly perceive that there must be a common cause of society's many problems, something that every city and province has in common with every other. But then they fail to realize that the commonality is the division of society into economic classes, private ownership of the means of life, the use of the profit motive, control of the state by the propertied class. Unable to recognize what the common factor is, they assume it's some other factor they they have heard about before, such as -- every region that has problems is also found to have some Jews living in it -- so they make the error of thinking that that's the correlation, the link between problems and their cause.

It's the cardinal duty of socialists to teach this lesson: Class rule generates hundreds of social problems. Most of these problems can be solved almost instantly by first changing the economic system to a democratic structure. These problems can never be resolved without changing the economic system, no matter how many reforms might be added to prop capitalism up. Socialists should never work toward "accomplishing something now" or "immediate demands" if that would mean a distraction from teaching this single most important lesson that only socialists can teach.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Well, comrade, at least you are opening up to the notion of "minimum-reformist" and "real-reformist" demands, having read my work-in-progress section on party programs (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1152754&postcount=10). :)

[So long as it is made clear how such demands pave the way for revolution...]

[trivas7]

I
It's the cardinal duty of socialists to teach this lesson: Class rule generates hundreds of social problems. Most of these problems can be solved almost instantly by first changing the economic system to a democratic structure.

While I agree with the former statement I disagree with the latter. If the history of socialism teaches anything it teaches that most of capitalism's problems indeed cannot be solved "almost instantly" by first changing the economic system to a democratic structure.

[Die Neue Zeit]

"The teaching of Marx and Engels gave to the class-struggle of the proletariat an entirely new character. So long as socialist production is not kept consciously in view as its object, so long as the efforts of the militant proletariat do not extend beyond the framework of the existing method of production, the class-struggle seems to move forever in a circle. For the oppressive tendencies of the capitalist method of production are not done away with; at most they are only checked." (http://www.marx.org/archive/kautsky/1892/erfurt/ch05.htm) (Karl Kautsky)

[trivas7]

"The teaching of Marx and Engels gave to the class-struggle of the proletariat an entirely new character. So long as socialist production is not kept consciously in view as its object, so long as the efforts of the militant proletariat do not extend beyond the framework of the existing method of production, the class-struggle seems to move forever in a circle. For the oppressive tendencies of the capitalist method of production are not done away with; at most they are only checked." (http://www.marx.org/archive/kautsky/1892/erfurt/ch05.htm) (Karl Kautsky)
Very interesting quote. Are you familiar with the cyclic theory of history written re by economist Ravi Batra derived from Progressive Utilization Theory?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PROUT

[communard resolution]

In Britain, the Daily Mail is a big help; it highlights the issues Fascists claim to deal with. The BNP takes these (mostly fabricated) worries, and says it'll solve them.

Yes, and I'm wondering why there aren't more marches or, you know, other activities against the likes of the Daily Mail, who are more influential and IMO more dangerous than the BNP at present.

[Kami]

Yes, and I'm wondering why there aren't more marches or, you know, other activities against the likes of the Daily Mail, who are more influential and IMO more dangerous than the BNP at present.
It's dificult to gather support to protest the second largest paper in the country (damn, that's depressing even to say ><)

[Kropotesta]

It's dificult to gather support to protest the second largest paper in the country (damn, that's depressing even to say ><)
Come now, emos recently marched against the Daily Mail for blaming of My Chemical Romance on a kids suicide.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/gallery/2008/jun/02/dailymail.pressandpublishing?picture=334519461

[punisa]

Unable to recognize what the common factor is, they assume it's some other factor they they have heard about before, such as -- every region that has problems is also found to have some Jews living in it -- so they make the error of thinking that that's the correlation, the link between problems and their cause.

I totally agree with you here. Blaming any minority for the corruption of the system is very evil.
On the basis of your statement - can you help me explain, or construct an argument on the Balkan situation ?

a) Croatian case study

Under influence of Serbian right-wingers demanding for "greater Serbia", Serbian minorities living in Croatia rebelled against Croatia and wished to break Croatian land apart and join Serbia (the parts where they present the majority).
Again this resulted in the right wing uprising all over Croatia and led to a bloody war. The result was that Serbians were almost completely expelled from the country. Croatia on the other hand succeeded in creating almost "ethnically clean" nation.

conlusion: contant rise of nationalism, right wing ideologies and hate towards Serbs

b) Serbian case study

Serbia had their own minority "problem" - Kosovo. Over the time Kosovo was more and more becoming a place were Albanian people were becoming majority.
This can be attributed to the cultural differences - Serb families tend to have 2/3 kids while Albanians have 7+
Little by little Albanians became majority on Kosovo (Historically belonging to Serbia).
Today Kosovo successfully separated from Serbia and became the republic of its own (sponsored by NATO)

conlusion: contant rise of nationalism, right wing ideologies and hate towards Albanians


As you see from these simple examples, majority of people in these two countries (Croatia and Serbia) feel that right winged ideology (and sometimes Fascism) is justified - because the minorities tried and in case b) succeeded to destroy their nation.

Can you construct a valid argument which will prove that minorities are not to blame? Can such arguments even exist in these examples?
Notice: people here do not buy crap about world conspiracy and such anymore , so eliminate those.

mikelepore, I see you understand the correlation between "minority" and "fascism", but all of you are encouraged to take your shot.

see ya comrades

[Revolutiondownunder]

Yes, and I'm wondering why there aren't more marches or, you know, other activities against the likes of the Daily Mail, who are more influential and IMO more dangerous than the BNP at present.

yes the real fascists are already in power... they are in the newsrooms and in the parliaments.

The idiots on the streets are simply wasting their time and ruining other peoples lives.

[Cossack]

People tend to want to fit in and when a group of fascists swing in they are given an easy way to fit in, just make sure certain people can't fit in. Also you have bigotry which racists can use as examples.

[Sasha]

i'm suprised no'one mentiont Adorno's F-scale yet.

from wikipedia:
F-scale

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The F-scale is a personality test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_test) (psychometric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychometrics) assessment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assessment)) that attempts to quantify authoritarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_personality) tendencies. The F-scale was designed on the basis of Theodor Adorno (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Adorno)'s theory of authoritarian personality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_personality). The "F" stands for "fascism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism)."
The test is designed to measure several variables, including conventionalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conventionalism), authoritarian submission (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Authoritarian_submission&action=edit&redlink=1), authoritarian aggression (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Authoritarian_aggression&action=edit&redlink=1), anti-intraception (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anti-intraception&action=edit&redlink=1), superstition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superstition) and stereotype (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype), power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_%28sociology%29) and "toughness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toughness)," destructiveness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructiveness) and cynicism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynicism), projectivity (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Projectivity&action=edit&redlink=1), and sex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex).
Among the criticisms of the F-scale is its sensitivity to respondents with acquiescent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acquiescence) response styles. A number of related scales such as the Wilson-Patterson Conservatism Scale, P-scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=P-scale&action=edit&redlink=1) and the balanced F-scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Balanced_F-scale&action=edit&redlink=1) have been created in an attempt to fix the shortcomings of the F-scale.
Robert Altemeyer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Altemeyer)'s Right Wing Authoritarianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Wing_Authoritarianism) Scale revised and refined the work of the F-Scale, and is today the most influential measurement of authoritarianism.
External links



An F-test sample (http://www.anesi.com/fscale.htm)

[Dust Bunnies]

I think partly it is because of life experiences. I almost slipped into racism not too long ago because of these Hispanics neighbors (not my neighbors, someone I know's neighbors). They went on her property, and such, (and at the time I was just finding Communism bits and pieces, I didn't know about this site), a hatred grew, but anger causes irrational thought like racism.

[punisa]

I think partly it is because of life experiences. I almost slipped into racism not too long ago because of these Hispanics neighbors (not my neighbors, someone I know's neighbors). They went on her property, and such, (and at the time I was just finding Communism bits and pieces, I didn't know about this site), a hatred grew, but anger causes irrational thought like racism.

So how do you feel about them today?

[Dust Bunnies]

I don't feel any illwill towards them. I received rational thought later, it was a fit of anger (a few days long fit but just a fit). In fact I would probably ne a happy man if I married one. I've just had the misfortune of knowing many bad ones.

[punisa]

I've just had the misfortune of knowing many bad ones.

I like your conclusion, could be used on many situations 'round the world. Unfortunately only a few will admit it's a small group that deserved bad feelings for, not the entirety.

Feelings of hate towards the whole nationality when its member does wrong to you is kinda natural reaction, but the point here is not to fight off your natural reaction - but to be aware of it and resolve it in the intellectual matter.

[Dimentio]

I think that racism is a development of the group-think which is inherent in human beings. We are genetically programmed to be hunter gatherers which are relating towards small groups. That does not mean that I think that way of life is desirable, or that our genetic make-up ever will change, but that it could explain the "we vs them" mentality which have been prevalent in human societies since the dawn of recorded history.

Fascism proposes a return to the pristine innocence and togetherness of the stone age tribe (or to the iron age warrior society). I think its attraction lies there.

[Dust Bunnies]

I think that racism is a development of the group-think which is inherent in human beings. We are genetically programmed to be hunter gatherers which are relating towards small groups. That does not mean that I think that way of life is desirable, or that our genetic make-up ever will change, but that it could explain the "we vs them" mentality which have been prevalent in human societies since the dawn of recorded history.

Fascism proposes a return to the pristine innocence and togetherness of the stone age tribe (or to the iron age warrior society). I think its attraction lies there.

I disagree that it's genetically coded. I think its because of the environment and experiences.

Early days of Humans: Racism was around because the people back then didn't much philosophy or anything, I'd say we have evolved intellectually and physically since then.

Roman era: Rome was a conquer all enslave the different guy type place filled with deceit and lies. People thought with a sword and not with a head.

Dark Ages-Middle Ages: This era was that of war and as a result we couldn't get past differences, let alone race.

Renaissance-1900s: We saw other races as inferior due to things like tradition (which we need to throw off) and that it seems like all the Jews and such were rich and all the Africans were property etc.

1930s- now: Because of Capitalism, nations and lives have been destroyed, some people are not logical enough to find Capitalism responsible, instead the blame the nearest group.

I propose the way to fix it is Communism, starting over traditions. The reason why many people hate negros (the technical word for people of dark skin color) is because we see them getting blamed for crimes, so we say that the world would be better if we got rid of them, but they do crimes because of Capitalism, because there is always a loser in Capitalism. People don't like Hispanics because people are fleeing the Capitalist hellhole of Mexico. Or a man may hate an Asian because their kid was Salutorian and lost to an Asian kid who got Valedictorian and the parent of the non-Asian kid is all mad.

Root cause of Racism: Capitalism
Secondary Cause: Experiences

[punisa]

I think that racism is a development of the group-think which is inherent in human beings. We are genetically programmed to be hunter gatherers which are relating towards small groups. That does not mean that I think that way of life is desirable, or that our genetic make-up ever will change, but that it could explain the "we vs them" mentality which have been prevalent in human societies since the dawn of recorded history.

Fascism proposes a return to the pristine innocence and togetherness of the stone age tribe (or to the iron age warrior society). I think its attraction lies there.

I've heard many peoples state this. At least a part of it's true.

Wow, so we are fighting for a revolution that will change even the genetic code, or at least fight against the basics of a human mind frame that was around till the beginning of history? I don't know about you, but it gives me hell of a more reasons to keep on the struggle.


.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Very interesting quote. Are you familiar with the cyclic theory of history written re by economist Ravi Batra derived from Progressive Utilization Theory?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PROUT

I'm afraid not. :(

[mikelepore]

While I agree with the former statement I disagree with the latter. If the history of socialism teaches anything it teaches that most of capitalism's problems indeed cannot be solved "almost instantly" by first changing the economic system to a democratic structure.

I would have been more accurate to say: by adopting socialism we can instantly stop generating social problems anew, but there will still be a mess that will take time to clean up. We can stop at once tossing people into poverty and discrimination and regimentation, but the symptoms of those things will not go away at once. We can stop at once the use of the rivers as the private sewers of factory owners, but the water will be toxic for a while.

[Dimentio]

I disagree that it's genetically coded. I think its because of the environment and experiences.

Early days of Humans: Racism was around because the people back then didn't much philosophy or anything, I'd say we have evolved intellectually and physically since then.

Roman era: Rome was a conquer all enslave the different guy type place filled with deceit and lies. People thought with a sword and not with a head.

Dark Ages-Middle Ages: This era was that of war and as a result we couldn't get past differences, let alone race.

Renaissance-1900s: We saw other races as inferior due to things like tradition (which we need to throw off) and that it seems like all the Jews and such were rich and all the Africans were property etc.

1930s- now: Because of Capitalism, nations and lives have been destroyed, some people are not logical enough to find Capitalism responsible, instead the blame the nearest group.

I propose the way to fix it is Communism, starting over traditions. The reason why many people hate negros (the technical word for people of dark skin color) is because we see them getting blamed for crimes, so we say that the world would be better if we got rid of them, but they do crimes because of Capitalism, because there is always a loser in Capitalism. People don't like Hispanics because people are fleeing the Capitalist hellhole of Mexico. Or a man may hate an Asian because their kid was Salutorian and lost to an Asian kid who got Valedictorian and the parent of the non-Asian kid is all mad.

Root cause of Racism: Capitalism
Secondary Cause: Experiences

The racist trait of group think is actually a rather new construct, which emanated from late 15th century European justifications of conquests of Non-european nations.

But group-think and exclusions of others are inherent in most primitive human societies. That does not mean that it is desirable or that it should not be fought.

As for the Roman Empire, it was not racist per definition. Yes, they had slaves, but these slaves were not slaves because of belonging to any race, but because they were either indebted persons who sold themselves to their debtor, or prisoners of war, or sons and daughters of such persons.

Nowhere in Roman litterature, you'll find for example any text which motivate black slavery in particular. What Romans and Greeks thought of blacks was that they were tall and ate meat.

The Greeks were quite xenophobic, but not racist per definition. The Romans were quite inclusive and had open immigration. During the 3d century, Rome had several North African, Syrian and Arab emperors.

[punisa]

The racist trait of group think is actually a rather new construct, which emanated from late 15th century European justifications of conquests of Non-european nations.

But group-think and exclusions of others are inherent in most primitive human societies. That does not mean that it is desirable or that it should not be fought.

As for the Roman Empire, it was not racist per definition. Yes, they had slaves, but these slaves were not slaves because of belonging to any race, but because they were either indebted persons who sold themselves to their debtor, or prisoners of war, or sons and daughters of such persons.

Nowhere in Roman litterature, you'll find for example any text which motivate black slavery in particular. What Romans and Greeks thought of blacks was that they were tall and ate meat.

The Greeks were quite xenophobic, but not racist per definition. The Romans were quite inclusive and had open immigration. During the 3d century, Rome had several North African, Syrian and Arab emperors.

Hi Serpent,

You pointed out some very interesting information. Care to take a step further into history in order to trace the fascism?
group-think also intrigued me as a theory - something does lie there indeed. Take a global scope of fascist ideology, it is rather primal despite all the so called rightist intelligentsia.

Lets get down to the ground and start small - take your average youth fascist group, lets say the skinheads, how do they act? well you can't say if you are their target, but if you observe from the distance - they act like animal group.

There is a leader and the followers - similar like wolves. The followers do according to thy leader, obey and act without questions.
Not much discussion is dedicated to the theory - "Why do we hate black?"
They just do it.

And when you observe and summarize you'll actually realize that the political spectrum is the best definition there is: left (humane urges) and right (primal/animal urges) - totally opposite.

[Malakangga]

nationalism,nationalism,and nationalism