Interesting Thomas Friedman quote

[IcarusAngel]

"The hidden hand of the market will never work without the hidden fist--McDonald's cannot flourish without McDonald-Douglas, the designer of the F-15. And the hidden fist that keeps the world safe for Silicon Valley technologies is called the United States Army, Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps." --Thomas Friedman, NY Times.


This is very true. It takes the government to create and fund the technologies that are sold to the state protected, "private" markets, and it takes the government to protect the capitalist free-market, such as oil, where the US spends more money protecting the oil in the ME than what it's worth in the first place.

Capitalism is equatable to statism.

[Bud Struggle]

Crap. People sell stuff--people buy stuff. McDonalds doesn't need jets--people are more than happy to buy hamburgers, fries and a Coke without guns point at them.

What the guns do is stop anyone from preventing people from buying their McDonald dinner. An entirely different story.

People like their hamburgers, fries and a Coke.

[IcarusAngel]

Crap. People sell stuff--people buy stuff. McDonalds doesn't need jets--people are more than happy to buy hamburgers, fries and a Coke without guns point at them.

This is incorrect on a high level. McDonalds regularly relies on the "military," such as in Latin America where a lot of their breeding production comes from. Furthermore, they used taxpayer funds to promote a lot of their crap in the third world in the first place, most of which is garnered from the public through some bilking scheme where they think it's going to the military or to education.

As they're grazing all the lands and so on, they're destroying the rainforests, which are probably hard to replinish, and they use parts of the rainforests for two years then move on to another part. The fact is that this likely contributes to global warming and so on.

The fact is, that you've just been proven incompetent as to how the world really works -- once again. And McDonald's isn't the only culprit. Nike and Coke also have relied on brutal military regimes to protect and promote their interests - in Indochina and Colombia, respectively.

And I think his point is that corps rely on the US military fo technology production, funding, and for providing security in other parts of the world, such as those third world countries named earlier. The World Bank, IMF, WTO are hardly non-governmental entities as well.

If if corps didn't receive protection, though, I don't buy the argument that 'you're free to shop where you want.' Corporations are always established through monopolistic practices and are always backed by the government, or are governments in and of themselves.

[Bud Struggle]

This is incorrect on a high level. McDonalds regularly relies on the "military," such as in Latin America where a lot of their breeding production comes from. Furthermore, they used taxpayer funds to promote a lot of their crap in the third world in the first place, most of which is garnered from the public through some bilking scheme where they think it's going to the military or to education.

As they're grazing all the lands and so on, they're destroying the rainforests, which are probably hard to replinish, and they use parts of the rainforests for two years then move on to another part. The fact is that this likely contributes to global warming and so on.

The fact is, that you've just been proven incompetent as to how the world really works -- once again. And McDonald's isn't the only culprit. Nike and Coke also have relied on brutal military regimes to protect and promote their interests - in Indochina and Colombia, respectively.

And I think his point is that corps rely on the US military fo technology production, funding, and for providing security in other parts of the world, such as those third world countries named earlier. The World Bank, IMF, WTO are hardly non-governmental entities as well.

If if corps didn't receive protection, though, I don't buy the argument that 'you're free to shop where you want.' Corporations are always established through monopolistic practices and are always backed by the government, or are governments in and of themselves.


Well corprations get raw materials where they can--and if the governments help--so much the better, but there would be a McDonald's with or with out government aid. People BUY their products. They want their products.

No one forces people to buy value meals. There is nothing monopolistic about McDonalds--you can get a hamburger anywhere.

You miss the point about how McDonald works--they take advantage of good business situations, but they don't exclude anyone else. everyone is free to make a buck.

Personally, in my chemical business I compete with a world class chemical company--they have their business, I have mine. I offer different things than they do and I succeed in my market, they in theirs. I just have NO PROBLEM with mega competitors. You just have to compete with them where they are the weakest and smash them.

It's how business is done. What isn't how business is done is how all you NON business people have all you economic theories about how things work and then extoll you wisdom on everyone else.

Build a business and then come back to me.

[IcarusAngel]

Well corprations get raw materials where they can--and if the governments help--so much the better...

Yes, of course you would support corporate statism, given that you're a conservative. But that's the point, corporate statism is coercive.


but there would be a McDonald's with or with out government aid...

LIE McDonald's wouldn't exist without the government. (In anarchy, 'companies' I doubt would even exist. They certainly didn't exist when hominoids actually did live in anarchy.)


People BUY their products. They want their products.

Distortion, plus straw man Other companies are undercut by McDonald's monopolistic practices. Furthermore, most people in the third world DO NOT support the export of beef production from their country to the US, as they are starving countries, and the fact is that they're are strangleholded by American corporations and American interests.

This "argument" could be given for Stalinism or Nazism - most people wanted both (through the 30s Hitler was extremly popular), so by your logic, Nazism and Stalinism are justified.

Most people wanted slavery as well.


No one forces people to buy value meals.

Lie The government and corporate coercion is very much forced.


There is nothing monopolistic about McDonalds--you can get a hamburger anywhere.

Lie They undercut competition and through their monopolistic (capitalist) practices eliminated healthy choices - plus, they're destroying the earth while they're doing it.

The environmental damaged and other "externalities" are also forced.


You miss the point about how McDonald works--they take advantage of good business situations, but they don't exclude anyone else. everyone is free to make a buck.

EXTREME Lie They're hurting the majority populations in the third world. They're hurting the productive resources that could be used for more healthier alternatives, making healthier alternatives more expensive.

Don't you understand economics? There are SCARCE resources, and that McDonald's is wasting so much resources for Western benefit is a big reason why over half of the world's population lives in extreme population.

It takes hundreds of gallons of water for every hamburger produced, while 2 billion people are without clean water in the first place.


Personally, in my chemical business I compete with a world class chemical company--they have their business, I have mine. I offer different things than they do and I succeed in my market, they in theirs. I just have NO PROBLEM with mega competitors. You just have to compete with them where they are the weakest and smash them.

A small business selling local chemical services completely different from what's beign discussed here, but the fact is that a majority of small businesses also receive help from the government through the SBA and so on, and a lot of "small business" owners are actually franchisees of larger, monopolistic corporations, like an owner of a local subway or McDonald's. They often qualify for small business loans through the SBA.

Everything is becoming more consolidated.


Build a business and then come back to me.

Lie. My family have run businesses for generations, and my dad is the creator of a technology company that invests in up and coming network engineering products, and provides them with the venture capital.

It's easy to see how the slavery of corporate capitalism works, though, even if you had no experience with businesses before. You could just study it in political science.

All these problems of big corporations, of security, and so on, would be solved through small communities or democratic confederations or councils, which are elected democratically with perhaps 50k people per federation.

And if you know so much about business, why are you here lying on the internet, claiming things even other capitalists like Thomas Friedman don't believe in? Why aren't you making money?

[Bud Struggle]

Yes, of course you would support corporate statism, given that you're a conservative. But that's the point, corporate statism is coercive

Well, it never did anything for me. I pay my taxes and just hope the government leaves me alone.


LIE McDonald's wouldn't exist without the government. (In anarchy, 'companies' I doubt would even exist. They certainly didn't exist when hominoids actually did live in anarchy.)

Back on track--of course they would. They make a product that people WANT! Any idiot could make something that people don't want. Listen: Anarchy doesn't exist, never existed and from what I've seen will never exist. You saying "when hominoids actually did live in anarchy" is like saying "when pigs used to fly."


Distortion, plus straw man Other companies are undercut by McDonald's monopolistic practices. Furthermore, most people in the third world DO NOT support the export of beef production from their country to the US, as they are starving countries, and the fact is that they're are strangleholded by American corporations and American interests. Then they need to get a life and do what's best for themselves not for Burger King.


Lie They undercut competition and through their monopolistic (capitalist) practices eliminated healthy choices - plus, they're destroying the earth while they're doing it. Nope--all you have to do is do things better than McDonalds. Build a better hamburger. People do it every day. I don't know where you live but in my town McDonald's isn't the only choice I have to get food.


EXTREME Lie They're hurting the majority populations in the third world. They're hurting the productive resources that could be used for more healthier alternatives, making healthier alternatives more expensive.

No. Sorry people make their own choices--if they want a fries instead of a salad--it's a FREE choice.


Don't you understand economics? There are SCARCE resources, and that McDonald's is wasting so much resources for Western benefit is a big reason why over half of the world's population lives in extreme population. I can't say I understand economics--I never studied it--but unlike 99% of the people that have studied economics--I actually DO economic things. I'm all for people being given choices to do whatever they want.


It takes hundreds of gallons of water for every hamburger produced, while 2 billion people are without clean water in the first place. People have to take a bit or responsibility for their own lives, don't you think? If they need water you would think 2 billion people could find a way to get it.




A small business selling local chemical services completely different from what's beign discussed here, but the fact is that a majority of small businesses also receive help from the government through the SBA and so on, and a lot of "small business" owners are actually franchisees of larger, monopolistic corporations, like an owner of a local subway or McDonald's. They often qualify for small business loans through the SBA.

First of all: I never took a nickle from anyone--and no one ever offered it either. I built a better mouserap. It's the third time I built it. First time printing, second land and real estate, third hospitialty. Businesses fail because their owners are failures. Period.


Lie. My family has run businesses for generations, and my dad is the creator of technology company that invests in up and coming network engineering products, and provides them with the venture capital.

Fine. What do YOU DO?


And if you know so much about business, why are you here lying on the internet, claiming things even other capitalists like Thomas Friedman don't believe in? Why aren't you making money?

I'm on vacation. And when I'm not I ALWAYS take a break in between ever business decision. It clears one's head. I do something then go on RevLeft and read and post something then get on with business and then read and post something. That's why most of my posts are pretty short--I don't take time for long answers like this one--except on the week end.

A little time on RevLeft is a like a sorbet for Capitalism--it clenses the palate for the next business decision.:)

[IcarusAngel]

Well, it never did anything for me.

The government has done plenty for you. Roads, research, protection of markets, and so on, all cost BILLIONS of dollars to implement. So, of course, you're also leeching off the public.


I pay my taxes and just hope the government leaves me alone.

The government doesn't "leave us alone" lol. That is the funniest thing I've ever heard.

If there was no capitalist government, then humans would of course act and work differently, just as they have under other forms of government.


Back on track--of course they would. They make a product that people WANT!

No, McDonald's wouldn't exist in anarchy - no corporation would. Corporations are creations of the state, they exist because of corporate charters and laws designed to keep them in place.

Modern humans have existed for about 100,000 years, and corporations are very new. 200 years at best. Why would you foolishly think they would exist in anarchy? :laugh:

And as for the lie that they are "voluntary," again, I don't believe it. I don't believe corporations are voluntary. Most corporations were established before most people were even born, and they continue to exist because landlords were able to acquire vast amounts of land and resources and prevent other people from using them. Thus, to be able to survive you're forced to work job x (which is entirely depends on what is currently marketable), just to be able to get resource Y from a few limited providers.

This is very hierarchical and tyrannical, and shows how collectivist and mob like capitalism is (you can accept corporate rule, or you can starve to death).


Any idiot could make something that people don't want. Listen: Anarchy doesn't exist, never existed and from what I've seen will never exist. You saying "when hominoids actually did live in anarchy" is like saying "when pigs used to fly."

Anarchy certainly has existed, and humans have existed under anarchy for far longer than they have under our conceptions of "government," society, and so on have come along.

It's interesting to note that since humans have lived under government (for the past several thousand years or so), that humans haven't evolved once, whereas anarchy was necessary to the species.

What HASN'T existed is capitalist anarchy, because no such thing could ever possibly exist as it's a contradiction in terms, and capitalism requires a government.

But SOCIALIST anarchism certainly has existed. It has existed in various parts of the third world. The Israeli Kibbutzim was socialist in nature, and anarchy has worked on the larger scale to some degree in Spain.


Then they need to get a life and do what's best for themselves not for Burger King.

What?


Nope--all you have to do is do things better than McDonalds. Build a better hamburger. People do it every day.

LOL. People don't do it everyday. There used to be over 20 or so car companies. Now there are fewer, like four or five or so. There used to be dozens of different of competing operating systems, and like 20 versions of Unix in vogue. Now there are a few corporate companies like Microsoft and Apple.

There used to be a diverse media, now the media is more monopolized. And so on.

This capitalistic system actually inhibits, not encourages, competition, and consolidates resources.

This "freedom" to compete with the government or the corporations is meaningless when you have to do it their way, and they rightfully "control" most of the resources -- as Marxists would point out.


I don't know where you live but in my town McDonald's isn't the only choice I have to get food.

Their monopolization of the resources actually prevents alternatives from cropping up by making them more expensive/harder to come by. This prevents people from easily receiving "according to their need," and thus in a communist system or communal anarchy, McDonald's would be interfering with other people's rights.

Even in geolibertarianism, McDonald's would be considered an abridgement of other people's rights.


No. Sorry people make their own choices--if they want a fries instead of a salad--it's a FREE choice.

Again, it isn't a free choice when McDonald's and the other fast food restaurants are a huge encroachment on natural resources are destroying good, arable land.

Most of the world's population do not eat at McDonald's, and yet, they're forced to accept the consequences. That is absolute tyranny.


I can't say I understand economics--I never studied it--but unlike 99% of the people that have studied economics--I actually DO economic things. I'm all for people being given choices to do whatever they want.

You should study some of that and political science as well.


People have to take a bit or responsibility for their own lives, don't you think? If they need water you would think 2 billion people could find a way to get it.

By taking true responsibility, they would kick out the capitalism that exists in their country and implement some kind of free system.

But rarely have humans moved towards a better system in such a fashion.


First of all: I never took a nickle from anyone--and no one ever offered it either.

You're borrowing from the public by using the internet. The internet was created by the government.

You're borrowing from the public when you use the roads. You didn't pay for all of it, the people did.


It's the third time I built it. First time printing, second land and real estate, third hospitialty. Businesses fail because their owners are failures. Period.

What? And no, I don't agree. Anybody who knows the history of corporations knows that governments actually permitted the destruction of alternative systems, such as roads.

Why do cars exist over alternatives? Because the government is the one who pays for the roads. The National Highway Defense System in the US was one of the greatest social engineering products of all time, putting Nazi Germany to shame.


I'm on vacation. And when I'm not I ALWAYS take a break in between ever business decision. It clears one's head. I do something then go on RevLeft and read and post something then get on with business and then read and post something. That's why most of my posts are pretty short--I don't take time for long answers like this one--except on the week end.

A little time on RevLeft is a like a sorbet for Capitalism--it clenses the palate for the next business decision.

The least you could do is learn something about the topics you're discussing in here (economy, anthropology, political science) instead of making up lies - such as the lie that corporations don't receive help from the government, that anarchy hasn't exist, and that anarcho-socialism hasn't existed.

Most of your statements are patently false.