"Liberalism" as a term of abuse

[BobKKKindle$]

In several discussions, including a discussion which is currently taking place ("Socialism and Islam" (http://www.revleft.com/vb/socialism-islam-t80735/index.html?p=1167274#post1167274)) "liberal" has been used as a term of abuse to refer to Socialists who have adopted anti-conservative positions on issues concerning sexual relations. What does the term "liberal" actually mean in this context and why is it used as a negative term?

In general, what is the relationship between Socialism and Liberalism, as a political ideology?

[GPDP]

What does the term "liberal" actually mean in this context and why is it used as a negative term?

It is probably used to suggest reformist tendencies, meaning not really liberating sexual relations, so much as making them more equal under the law.


In general, what is the relationship between Socialism and Liberalism, as a political ideology?

Do you mean Classical or Modern Liberalism? Assuming the later, Modern Liberals do retain some egalitarian notions, though mostly on social issues. Perhaps their development as a political ideology was somewhat influenced by the socialist movement, either directly or indirectly, and thus causing them to split from the Classical strand. But don't quote me on that just yet.

[Demogorgon]

Socialism in many ways grew out of Liberalism in the intellectual sense. The two outlooks are very different, but socialist theory is directly traceable to early liberal theory.

[Red October]

When I use the term liberal, it's to describe left-leaning or progressive people who are reformists or capitalists.

[PRC-UTE]

Most the time when you hear liberalism, especially in the context of revleft, it means a defender of liberal capitalist ideology (bourgeois democracy, the market, private property as a right...).

In some places like the USA liberal means basically left of centre. In general though, it doesn't.

[Holden Caulfield]

liberalism can get in the way of necessity in the modern sense of the word,

if somebody described themselves as a liberal i would assume middle class and sympathetic from a distance, i.e. supports capitalism and oxfam but wouldnt like a revolution in their suburb,

[Die Neue Zeit]

Socialism in many ways grew out of Liberalism in the intellectual sense. The two outlooks are very different, but socialist theory is directly traceable to early liberal theory.

If you are referring to "romantic" liberal notions of "civic democracy," then you are correct. One of the things social proletocracy aims for is the establishment of what many radical political liberals call “civic democracy,” which goes beyond the current and degenerating “representative democracy” in regards to a highly engaged and highly active citizenry (which implies increased responsibility):

Every cook must learn to govern the state.

[Kami]

There's three meanings I could assign the word "liberal";
1. Liberalism, as described above, and
2. Liberal, as in Liberty; an anti-authoritarian, pro-freedom opinion on a particular issue, and
3. "Liberal", i.e. Progressive

[trivas7]

One of the things social proletocracy aims for is the establishment of what many radical political liberals call “civic democracy,” which goes beyond the current and degenerating “representative democracy” in regards to a highly engaged and highly active citizenry (which implies increased responsibility):

Every cook must learn to govern the state.
Well, you'd better have a chapter re "civic democracy" in your book because if I were a cook, frankly -- I wouldn't be interested in governing the state.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

In general, liberalism is a conservative bourgeois ideology based on free market principles. The only "modern" context of liberalism is neoliberalism, which is even more nefarious than the normal kind. The only places where this may not apply as widely are the USA, UK, and Australia, but we all know not to take them seriously. These are the same kinds of blinkered pigfuckers who think materialism means buying stuff.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Well, you'd better have a chapter re "civic democracy" in your books because if I were a cook, frankly -- I wouldn't be interested in governing the state.

Pardon my mistake:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin


We know that an unskilled labourer or a cook cannot immediately get on with the job of state administration.

Will the Bolsheviks Retain Government Power? (1917)

This citation is often misquoted as "every cook must learn to govern the state" or even "every cook can govern the state"

[Dros]

The term, as used to describe me in that thread, is being misused by someone who really doesn't understand what the term means. Liberalism is a socio-economic outlook that has spread into politics and International relations. In reality, Peacekeeper is using it as a bourgeois conservative might, to indicate that my views are to "radical". He even admits "call me a conservative"!

The use of this term also reflects the anti-scientific view that any kind of statement made by a bourgeois democrat is wrong by default, merely because they said it! The thing that is ironic about all of this is that my position in this thread is completely opposed to (and explicitly so!) prevalent bourgeois attitudes about sexually.

Also, this guy seems to think the Bourgeoisie are using sex to distract us from revolutionary politics!

:lol:

[Dimentio]

Most the time when you hear liberalism, especially in the context of revleft, it means a defender of liberal capitalist ideology (bourgeois democracy, the market, private property as a right...).

In some places like the USA liberal means basically left of centre. In general though, it doesn't.

Actually, both the Republicans and the Democrats are generally markets liberals, only with a social conservative respective social progressive outlook. Real conservatism is paternalist.

[PRC-UTE]

Actually, both the Republicans and the Democrats are generally markets liberals, only with a social conservative respective social progressive outlook. Real conservatism is paternalist.

Not just generally, probably all of them are liberals. I mentioned that in America and maybe a few other places the term is used to mean something else.

If you said to an American that by the standard definition, Bush is the most aggressive liberal around they would probably look at you funny. :lol:

[trivas7]

Real conservatism is paternalist.
What do you mean by this? All class based societies are paternalist, no? AFAIK conservatism wasn't a political moniker before Edmund Burke penned Reflections on the Revolution in France.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Conservatism is simply the political agenda of keeping things the way they are.

[apathy maybe]

Very quickly, liberalism is about freedom and equality. However, it is traditionally been that of capitalist freedom, and capitalist equality of opportunity. However, the liberal ideals can be co-opted by socialists if done correctly.
I've written more on this, and I'll dig it out and post it later. You may have to prompt me.

[Decolonize The Left]

Liberalism is a political philosophy which was 'founded' by thinkers such as John Locke and Jean-Jacques Rousseau (although the latter can be argued to be a Republican). Liberalism makes several basic assumptions:
1) Human nature is essentially 'good' and malleable.
2) 'Bad' human behavior is the product of institutional structures.
3) War is not inevitable.

Historically, liberalism was a reaction to monarchies and the state as justified through the word of God. Within more recent times, it has come to mean the organization of a society around the state and the establishment of basic principles such as:
- individual freedom
- right to private property
- right to political participation
- state respect for civil rights

With that clarified, a 'liberal' is someone who endorses such a political philosophy. This would mean that both the Republican and Democratic parties of the US are liberal parties, as well as most major industrial state representatives. Liberal is often used as synonymous with 'progressive', but this is a common usage and does not reflect the political philosophy which underlies the word itself.

- August

[BIG BROTHER]

August pretty much nailed it with the actual definition of liberalism. The thing though is that most people at least in the USA tend to just use the media's definition which basically means that when they hear liberalism they think same sex marriage, pro-abortion, etc.

[Labor Shall Rule]

'Liberalism' (in the pre-war U.S. sense) is based on the theory of creating an advanced, relatively stable capitalism with high employment. The heavy state investment and growth policies that were set up to boost productive capacity in the years following the up-start of the world war exemplifies 'liberal' policies enacted during the New-Deal years.

Today, it's more or less a word that causes pandemonium with political scientists - mostly because today's 'liberals' (in the U.S. at least) are colored with policies that generally don't represent left or even center-left policies.

The New Deal Coalition (the remaining 'social democrats' in the Democratic Party) was largely broken up, and it ushered in years, starting with Nixon and reaching an horrific monolith with the Reagan 'revolution', in which public investment and social spending was drastically cut. After the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) took over in the height of Reagan's devolution, they brought the "end of welfare as we know it," and became very 'conservative' and Republican-like in their appearance. Their aim was to "end lobbying" (for anti-war, labor, feminist, civil rights, and Black liberation movements) while caving in to the neo-liberal agenda to finally internationalize capital while removing caps and protectionist policies already in place, and by (of course) annihilating all social programs that might exist.

The 'liberals' that remain in the mainstream today lobby largely for industrial policy (i.e. 'keep the jobs here were they belong') as opposed to that globalist normality that most Republicans and Democrats now cling to. To refer to a politician as a 'liberal' today is to shout a inchoate locution that is probably not true - it is rare to find one anywhere in mainstream politics that embodies 'liberal' politics. It's become more of a political slur, then an actual ideology.