Positive discrimination

[Dr Mindbender]

Is this something we as leftists should support?

I am in two minds because it seems a bit self defeating. Yes we need to keep our workforce quotent representitive, but in some cases it appears to be an open goal for right wingers to complain about 'whites being discriminated against'.

Opinions?

[Cybersomatix]

I'm all for meritocracy... If someone can do a job better than someone else, let them.

If you can show me a single right wing white guy in the west who can point out the specific not white male individual who gained social advancement at their detriment (you know, someone who can back up their claims of discrimination against the white male), please do... I'd really be interested in meeting them

[spartan]

Can any form of discrimination be truly positive as it seems to me that the two things are fundamental opposites?

The way i see it is that employers should be colour blind and chose to employ people (Whether that be a white person or a black person) based on there ability instead of there skin colour.

However with lots of ethnic minorities not getting as good a chance at education than some white people do you can see why calls for positive discrimination are apparent (As ethnic minorities might not have the skills to get a job because of lack of opportunities to acquire skills, through no fault of their own, whilst growing up).

[rouchambeau]

The way i see it is that employers should be colour blind and chose to employ people (Whether that be a white person or a black person) based on there ability instead of there skin colour.
That would be a good way of going about it, but one needs to understand that such a scenario can only be fair if both applicants had the same obstacles to becoming what they are. If we take up the pretenses of meritocracy while refraining from making education (and the like) available for everyone.

[Organic Revolution]

What now? Explain your position.

[Revolutiondownunder]

The real problem as I see it is that when employers go out to "fill" diversity spots they recruit from ethnic minority communities, but only from the middle and upper classes of those communities.

Plus it makes the Liberal groups that advocate it look like they have abandoned the working classes which have been the base of the left forever.

So overall not such a great Idea... sounds great in theory, but CLASS is what matters in the end, not skin colour or gender.

[Dr Mindbender]

I'm all for meritocracy... If someone can do a job better than someone else, let them.

If you can show me a single right wing white guy in the west who can point out the specific not white male individual who gained social advancement at their detriment (you know, someone who can back up their claims of discrimination against the white male), please do... I'd really be interested in meeting them


I think the argument against that is that if you 'trust' employers to pick their staff on their own merits then there is no guarantee that the employer will not make their own biased decisions based on race. As most leftists would acknowledge, big bosses and racial impartiality do not go hand in hand!

[BobKKKindle$]

I am in two minds because it seems a bit self defeating. Yes we need to keep our workforce quotent representitive, but in some cases it appears to be an open goal for right wingers to complain about 'whites being discriminated against'.

Positive discrimination based on race does not change the way society perceives groups which suffer oppression, because the majority will feel that they are being unfairly persecuted and so resent other groups, especially if positive discrimination leads to someone of lesser ability (relative to other candidates for a position) being selected because they are part of a group which is subject to positive discrimination.

However, Socialists should support initiatives which aim to expand access to higher education for the working class. Oxford, which has traditionally been seen as an elitist institution, is now committed to offering places to students who come from the state education system - this allows people who have not been given the same opportunities as other applicants to gain places at a university which would normally be beyond the reach of working class students.

[RoterAnarchie]

Discrimination is wrong, wether it's against blacks or whites or whatever!

The only kind of discrimination I can accept is the positive kind against handicapted people, for they are truly disabled

[Devrim]

Post deleted

[BobKKKindle$]

Bob, just because you are going to go to a university like this [etc]

I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't leak personal information to the main section of the board. Clearly Oxford is still an elitist institution, because the student body is comprised mainly of students who have been able to benefit from a high standard of education at the secondary level due to a wealthy family background - but attempts to expand working class access to higher-education should still be promoted by Socialists. I used Oxford as a case study solely because it is the university with which I am most familiar, not because I view it as an outstanding example of egalitarian education.

[Dr Mindbender]

i think this thread is going a little OT somewhat. When i started it, i meant the context more to be along the lines of ethnic discrimination rather than class.

[Dean]

Is this something we as leftists should support?

I am in two minds because it seems a bit self defeating. Yes we need to keep our workforce quotent representitive, but in some cases it appears to be an open goal for right wingers to complain about 'whites being discriminated against'.

Opinions?

I don't think so. I think all discrimination is ultimately bad for those being discriminated for and against. There are various problems created by the different notions inequality indicates, but they are always mutually damaging. It creates a mode of social existence in which one has more responsibility, one does more, one has less choices - all these inequal situations are damaging where they seem to be positive.

[Mariner's Revenge]

Positive discrimination being "beneficial" usually happens when the actual problem lies somewhere else. In the United States, affirmative actions should have been replaced with something that attacked the educational and institutional racist and classist policies.

[Dr Mindbender]

I don't think so. I think all discrimination is ultimately bad for those being discriminated for and against. There are various problems created by the different notions inequality indicates, but they are always mutually damaging. It creates a mode of social existence in which one has more responsibility, one does more, one has less choices - all these inequal situations are damaging where they seem to be positive.

if we don't postively discriminate how can we protect ethnic minority workers against racist employers?

[Dean]

if we don't postively discriminate how can we protect ethnic minority workers against racist employers?

By having a firm stance against all forms of discrimination. You don't have to discriminate to oppose the same.