Is it bourgeois to... (stupid question)

[Grunt]

I am sorry, comrades to come with such a stupid question -
but I am really interested in your opinions !

I am also aware that this thread/question maybe belongs
in the litterature/movie forum...

My question:

Is it bourgeois to watch and enjoy Hollywood movies ?

(not all Hollywood movies of course, but some)

Is it ?

[Red October]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Module]

No, of course not.
There is no involvement on your part in the labour relations of the film company and those workers who produced the film, ... I don't see what could be bourgeois about it! Certainly no more bourgeois than consuming any other product.

In what ways did you think that it could've been, out of curiosity?

[Post-Something]

:lol:

Of course not!

[Grunt]

In what ways did you think that it could've been, out of curiosity?
Because I buy or rent DVD's and by doing so I support the capitalist
system and even help so that it can exploit more people...:(

I know this is basically true for everyuthing I buy - but movies
are for entertainment, I don't really need them in order to survive.

Generally: I am totally confused about what is bourgeois and what
isn't...:(

[Harrycombs]

Well, if you don't buy anything for entertainment, the capitalists will just lay off the workers who make the products, and things will get, unfortunately, worse.

[Cossack]

Because I buy or rent DVD's and by doing so I support the capitalist
system and even help so that it can exploit more people...:(

I know this is basically true for everyuthing I buy - but movies
are for entertainment, I don't really need them in order to survive.

Generally: I am totally confused about what is bourgeois and what
isn't...:(

Bourgeois is actually a type of person, just because they are Bourgeois doesn't mean that everything that comes from them is Bourgeois it just means thats it's background. for example if you get beef from a Russian cow it's still beef just as beef from an American cow is still beef.

[Grunt]

Well, if you don't buy anything for entertainment, the capitalists will just lay off the workers who make the products, and things will get, unfortunately, worse.
Then its like...a Catch 22 situation ?

Meaning: Whatever I do - the exploited get exploited. :(

[Grunt]

Bourgeois is actually a type of person,
The type of person who owns the means of
production and who directly exploits the workers ?

Or is the ordinary consumer - who consumes just because it
has become his only goal in life to posess as many things as
possible and therefore must 'make' a lot of money - also a
bourgeois ?

[gla22]

don't worry about trying to live the 'right' lifestyle in a capitalist society.

[Module]

The type of person who owns the means of
production and who directly exploits the workers ?

Or is the ordinary consumer - who consumes just because it
has become his only goal in life to posess as many things as
possible and therefore must 'make' a lot of money - also a
bourgeois ?
No, an ordinary consumer is not necessarily bourgeois.
Bourgeois only really refers (when used correctly, that is) to a person's relationship to the means of production.

We live in a culture of consumerism, wealth becomes a lot of people's life's goal for the reason that material goods are equated with happiness, and wealth to a large extent measures our freedom. All people are victims in this way,
Of course some of us are lucky enough to be in a position where this ideal can be taken a lot further, and indeed it becomes one's life goal to make a lot of money, but for most people they merely want enough to exist. But that's just me rambling a bit. ;)

[Module]

Those who attempt to live in a way that causes as little exploitation as possible are called 'lifestylists'. Indeed it is generally accepted that lifestylism is no form of worthwhile revolutionary activity, and merely something to make an individual feel better rather than cause any genuine change, and end exploitation altogether.

While production exists in the form that it exists now, though we disagree with it as communists, as members of a society we have no obligation to exclude ourselves from society entirely. It's pointless and serves only an individual moral, rather than practical purpose.

[Grunt]

don't worry about trying to live the 'right' lifestyle in a capitalist society.
Why not ? I believe that some lifestyles are better and cause less
exploitation.

I don't wanna just consume and consume and consume and be part
of the 'rat-race' that the capitalists made us belief is the only way
of living a 'decent' life !

[Plagueround]

Those who attempt to live in a way that causes as little exploitation as possible are called 'lifestylists'. Indeed it is generally accepted that lifestylism is no form of worthwhile revolutionary activity, and merely something to make an individual feel better rather than cause any genuine change, and end exploitation altogether.

While production exists in the form that it exists now, though we disagree with it as communists, as members of a society we have no obligation to exclude ourselves from society entirely. It's pointless and serves only an individual moral, rather than practical purpose.

Everytime I go to post something, Desrumeaux or someone like her beats me to it and says exactly what I was going to say. :(

I can see where you're coming from Grunt, because I struggled a lot and sometimes still do have times where I am just overwhelmed with my participation in an exploitive system. What I've come to realize is that the only way you'll avoid participating in that system is going off and living in a cave...and you won't be able to change things for the better from a cave. ;)

[Grunt]

No, an ordinary consumer is not necessarily bourgeois.
Bourgeois only really refers (when used correctly, that is) to a person's relationship to the means of production.

We live in a culture of consumerism, wealth becomes a lot of people's life's goal for the reason that material goods are equated with happiness, and wealth to a large extent measures our freedom. All people are victims in this way,
Of course some of us are lucky enough to be in a position where this ideal can be taken a lot further, and indeed it becomes one's life goal to make a lot of money, but for most people they merely want enough to exist. But that's just me rambling a bit. ;)
But the over-consumers, who have to make a lot of money - they
make it with stocks and bonds and stuff. So technically they own
a part of the means of productions !!!

And they defend the capitalist system. They would like it if
all socialists/communists would be persecuted, like in the McCarthy
era.

Now I dunno nothing - but that much I know: Ignorance and
indifference by choice - those people are not victims for me.

[F9]

first of all s is said a lot times in this forum,there are not stupid questions!;)
to the point now,no it's not bourgeois just to see some holywoods movies,you can find and some really good in those too!;)

Fuserg9:star:

[Grunt]

Those who attempt to live in a way that causes as little exploitation as possible are called 'lifestylists'. Indeed it is generally accepted that lifestylism is no form of worthwhile revolutionary activity, and merely something to make an individual feel better rather than cause any genuine change, and end exploitation altogether.
I am a Punk. So that makes me a 'lifestylist'. My hope is to learn
enough and combine that 'lifestyle' with a good ideology, idealistic
and strong principles.

That could be a 'worthwile revolutionary activity' - no ?

[Plagueround]

Why not ? I believe that some lifestyles are better and cause less
exploitation.

I don't wanna just consume and consume and consume and be part
of the 'rat-race' that the capitalists made us belief is the only way
of living a 'decent' life !

No matter how kind a slave owner is to their slaves, no matter how much more they are provided over other slaves...they are still slaves. I understand you don't want to hurt people or exploit them and that is commendable, but you are going to participate in an exploitive system no matter what.
If you truly want to cut out all exploitive products, crack open that computer you're typing on and tell me where all the parts come from. Go do some research on the internet industry. The cat5 cables or wireless signal you're using was likely installed by a wage slave. I'm not trying to be mean, but realize where you stand.

Trying to be a lifestylist will only end in constant feelings of guilt from the various ways you have to contradict that lifestyle.

[Grunt]

I can see where you're coming from Grunt, because I struggled a lot and sometimes still do have times where I am just overwhelmed with my participation in an exploitive system.
Thanks comrade ! Now I feel a little bit less stupid ! :)



What I've come to realize is that the only way you'll avoid participating in that system is going off and living in a cave...and you won't be able to change things for the better from a cave. ;)
OK ! I understand and its true.

But I do not want to participate in the way many or most people
in the western societies (people who earn more than they really
need) do. I am taling about the 'Rat-Race': "My neighbour got a new
car - now I must get a new one too, and an even better one."

Better by what you need and things you really like (in my case
movies and books) but modestly. And give the rest to poor
people.

Not to feel better !!! That spoils the whole thing. Just do it
automatically, because its right and good. :)

[Grunt]

first of all s is said a lot times in this forum,there are not stupid questions!;)
to the point now,no it's not bourgeois just to see some holywoods movies,you can find and some really good in those too!;)

Fuserg9:star:
Thanks comrade ! Its true: Not all of them are capitalist propaganda !
:)

[Grunt]

... but you are going to participate in an exploitive system no matter what.
Yes - thats true. I can not change it. I can't.

But some day - we all together can change it ! No ?




Trying to be a lifestylist will only end in constant feelings of guilt from the various ways you have to contradict that lifestyle.
Yes ! I must live with the contradiction. Its a curse ! :(

[Lord Testicles]

Yes ! I must live with the contradiction. Its a curse ! :(

For the sake of clarification, were is the contradiction exactly?

[Grunt]

Now I am going to watch another Hollywood movie ! :)

Thanks to you, comrades - with a clearer conscience...

Catch you all later, tomorrow (well actually today - local time)
Tomorrow we have a national holiday - so no work.

[Grunt]

For the sake of clarification, were is the contradiction exactly?
Having to buy stuff from exploiters despite being aware of the
exploitation and wanting to stop it.

[Lord Testicles]

Having to buy stuff from exploiters despite being aware of the
exploitation and wanting to stop it.

Isn't that the motivation to change things? If we could all stop being exploited by just living a different lifestyle there wouldn't be a need for the revolutionary left.

[trivas7]

Is it bourgeois to watch and enjoy Hollywood movies ?


I wouldn't worry re it. One's class status is not moral behavior, but one's relationship to the means of production. Which means it's usually out of people's control. Engels was bourgeois.

[Grunt]

Isn't that the motivation to change things? If we could all stop being exploited by just living a different lifestyle there wouldn't be a need for the revolutionary left.
As I see it: It takes a revolution and a revolutionary left to change
things, how else can it be achieved that all are living a 'different
lifestyle' ? The exploited (I am one of them) will not and can not
all the sudden stand up one day like one man and decide not to work
for the exploiters no more and neither by their products.

Why ?

- Because the exploited need food, water, clothes and shelter -
and all that comes from the exploiters. So its about the very survival.

- Not all exploited know or wanna know that they are in fact the
exploited. Centuries of propaganda (also called advertising)
have convinced many - that the system works and that its
good and highly desirable to consume and that their 'status'
is directly proportional to their consumption.

Thats just what I think.

[Grunt]

I wouldn't worry re it. One's class status is not moral behavior, but one's relationship to the means of production.
Yes. Thats why I don't own stocks or bonds and stuff.

Still: Over-consumption is not desirable IMO. I know that by -
for instance - trying to buy as little as possible from the
multinationals - doesn't change much, or nothing at all.

But, in case one earns more than one needs for basic things plus
for a few things that one likes (modestly) - one should either
give the surplus to those who have nothing and/or 'invest' the
surplus in education. In my case: Political education, scientific
education.

[Malakangga]

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

[Grunt]

:confused::confused::confused::confused:
Whats wrong, comrade ? Did I say something wrong ?