Situation it today's Croatia

[punisa]

Hello comrades,
I was browsing throughout some old posts on this great forum and noticed that some of you are very willing to learn more about the current situation in the former communist Yugoslavia.

Unfortunately my knowledge on other republics besides Croatia is not filled to the point that I would be able to discuss it. On the situation in Serbia, Macedonia, Bosnia and so on I learn only from news and media and I have a strong philosophy to distrust mainstream news agencies (especially in Balkans), but feel free to join this discussion if you have more info.

Communist and leftist theories are very forbidden in today's Croatia. Speaking openly about certain advantages a communist society posses can get you killed, especially if you try to educate the "wrong" crowd.

During the "war for independence" 1991-1995 Croatia suffered big human losses and property destruction. One must also be aware that this war was rarely fought on the basis of war principles.
Any imaginable deviations from Laws of War (wars should and do have laws, no mater how ironic it sounds) were extensively used.

Rape, torture, being burned alive, hacking of genital organs (and feeding them to the victim), stuffing sawn off heads on the poles, cutting down women, children and elderly, poking eyes with knives and so on.
If there were no photographic evidences of these extreme evil, I would personally refuse to believe that human beings are capable of doing so.
Unfortunately there are pictures... too many of them.

Such acts, which have nothing to do with so called soldier nobility, were committed by virtually every conflicting sides in the course of Yugoslav wars.

Croatia saw a massive uprising of right wing politicians, in some extreme examples we have all the justified right to call it fascist.
Whichever was the main cause, the fact is that huge masses of the people became very fond of this ideology.

After five years of war battles were over under strange circumstances. By the end of war it became obvious that greater powers were heavily involved.

Croatia is today a country that is severely damaged ideologically. Right wingers have absolute control over the country.
Croatia is being exploited to an unimaginable degree. Country lost almost all of its economy, virtually every aspect in Croatia is run by foreign corporations - television, internet, mobile networks, telephones, tourism, industry, transportation, private health care clinics, banks, financial institutions, media, newspapers, advertising, food import, shopping malls etc.

These are just industries that came to my mind right now, you can continue the list yourselves, it's definitely foreign corporation.
Even as the part of Yugoslavia, Croatia was very developed tourist country and majority of people living in the coastline area were employed there.
Now almost all hotel chains have been sold to foreign companies well below their worth.

Barbaric and non transparent privatization looted the land almost over night. One fact that contributes to this statement is that majority of global corporations signed their business deals with Croatia in the bloody year of 1991.
During the total mobilization of every men capable of holding a weapon and dispatching them on the front lines, incredible theft was going on behind office doors.

Majority of people in Croatia (during Yugoslavia) were middle-class. Ok ok, I know - mentioning classes is not a communist principle, but let me show you were I'm going with this.
When saying middle class, I mean this: having a roof over you head (a nice one), having jobs, having a car, being able to go on vacation ans so on.
This is something that people indeed has.

Today majority of people is living on debt ! I was in a shopping mall yesterday, I didnt notice a single person paying in cash. They all use their american express, Visa or other.

Few of sane political analysts warn that soon all these debts will crash forward - mortgages, shopping cards, housing loans - these will soon start to pressure people down. Majority will not be able to pay, so what happens next?

And this is the new middle class of capable capitalist business people, the old middle class mentioned earlier is digging thru dumbsters looking for food. No, this is not a matter of speech, people are actually trying hard to find food in these trash bins.
I was having a coffee the other day and it disturbed me very much by seeing such a site. Even more disturbing is that no-one seems to notice it !

The people became emotionless capitalists so dam fast that it's actually incredible. The atmosphere is such that you can't trust anyone nowadays, people became ... well, evil !
Personally people tried to double cross me so many times that is funny.

A government can not be changed unless young people devoted their energy into it. And the young people (high school, college students) are so polluted by capitalism that any chance of a reasonable conversation is impossible.
They embraced all the bad there is. Huge number of young people are drug addicts. Majority has no chance to find a job. The ongoing despair oddly pulls them even stronger into nationalism and fascist viewpoints.

Walking down the streets of some of our beautiful cities you will encounter swastikas and other fascist/nazi symbols everywhere you go.
Instead of removing these insulting graffiti immediately by authorities, they are usually left like that for weeks !
In some more remote towns, even for years.

Every monument that was depicting Yugoslav and Croatian victory over fascism was taken down or brutally destroyed (detonated). To make things worse many street names were changed and now some also bare the names of fascist leaders.
(Imagine something like this happening in Germany !!!)

Rich tycoons posses incredible wealth in billions of dollars and the most absurd thing is that these people are not some slick office manipulators that you guys in the west would imagine them. On the contrary, these are people that look like the worst cases of human rubbish you would find in some god forsaken watering hole in the unreachable parts of central USA (no offence meant here).
They sold land, factories, industry and everything economically valuable to the foreign corporations. Although corporations bought it at an extreme low price, it was enough to make these people billionaires.

Daily news are full of workers strikes all over the country, but the ruling politics make the mockery out of those. The general opinion is that the working class is nothing more than stupid idiots who still rely on the help of the state and that they somehow deserve to be laid off or treated in inhuman ways.
Being a hard worker and trying to make an honest living makes you look like a total jerk, even a communist !

Many people survive (and live quite good) by working in black market. They are so proud of their illegal ways of living that they usually go so far and brag about it.

This heavily affects young people. General idea is that college degree is worth shit, cause there is no chance you'll find decent job, so many youngsters quit early. The saddest thing is that this became truth. I personally know a lot of my college classmates that are still struggling to work and survive, although we completed long and hard education processes.

And now we come to the worst point. There is no, I repeat NO, politics in Croatia. At least there is not a political party that would devote itself to improve inhuman life conditions.
Two most dominate parties hold about 99% percent of total politicians. And they work together, although very carefully so the public doesn't notice it.
One is right-center, the other one is left-center.
They exchange power every 4-8 years in order to show "democracy".

Speaking of democracy, there is none, cause the election process is useless (its only the exchange of rulers, as I mentioned above).
This is a hard one to deal with. Probably the hardest one.
Seeing a change, or at least some improvements, on the horizon would actually be enough for me and people alike.
Thing is there is none.

You must note that Croatia is very different today then other ex communist countries. While recent polls show that majority of people in the eastern bloc (example: Hungary) are nostalgic for the communist days and admit life was better then, Croatia is not such case.

Capitalist propaganda was so strong that it convert even the biggest communist hard liners. I doubt that Croatian nationalists could people such a big and detailed paradigm shift. It must've been planned from the outside (EU,US?), and still is.

By being overly realistic (which I usually ain't) and being aware of the total miserable situation in Croatia today - I could settle for capitalism, I could settle for open market, I could endure the poverty, I could face the drug addiction problem, I could live surrounded by thieves and opportunists, but I CAN'T TOLERATE FASCISM !
I cant tolerate that my kids will be forced to learn how Croatia's joining the axis during WW2 was a good move, I simply can't crush my most intimate ideology like that.

The close connections between the ruling party and the church is getting out of hands. We have at least 5 prime time God-oriented TV shows on national television.
I'm not anti religion here, but this ain't no religion man. Killing in the name of any god is just damn wrong.

The hatred is spread so much these days. When I think about it, it seems that a common Croatian hates everyone, especially the neighbours: Italians, Hungarians, Bosnians, Serbians (especially).

Just a few days ago an elderly lady (60 something) was brutally beaten up in our state capital because she told some young people sitting in front of a bar that singing fascist songs is wrong.
The news spreads quickly and its headlines. Although media condemned it, there is also a message hidden between those lines - if you're against Croatia's "glorious" fascist history you deserve to be beaten - or worse.

Hmm, I can see the little scrollbar on the side getting really small now, so I think I'll stop right here. Hope you enjoyed the reading, I'll be around to discuss the topic with you further if you wish.

As I'm finishing this post I feel that it is necessary to state that all of these are just my humble observations. These lines are written about the economy and political climate which is still very much covered in secrets, shadows, misinformation and oppression. By saying this I acknowledge that I am not able to answer many questions, even the ones critical to me. Stating that something presents the ultimate empirical truth is almost impossible, especially when we discuss turbulent history.

[communard resolution]

First off, thanks a lot for the info, Comrade!


Communist and leftist theories are very forbidden in today's Croatia. Speaking openly about certain advantages a communist society posses can get you killed, especially if you try to educate the "wrong" crowd.This is something I haven't experienced in Croatia at all, and I go there at least once a year. I did notice that a lot of the younger generation are very right-wing and nationalist. But when I spoke to people who remember socialist Yugoslavia, not one of them could think of anything bad to say about YU or Tito. Some of these people were communists, some of them anarchists, some right-wing, some left-wing, some apolitical... but one thing they all agreed on was that Yugoslavia was the best place on earth in socialist times. So I didn't really experience any strong anti-communism.

What I did encounter frequently, though, were strong anti-Serb sentiments, extreme nationalism, and a shocking tolerance for Ustase and the Independent State of Croatia even among mainstream/'apolitical' people. It didn't sound to me like they were very clued up about the Ustase or fascism: I had the impression they had caught something somewhere and repeated it thoughtlessly. Which, of course, is even more worrying as it shows how normal and socially acceptable pro-Ustase culture has become.

And yes, I do remember nazi and 'U' graffiti being everywhere. I found Pula to be particularly infested with nazi skinheads. I had never been there before, so unknowingly I checked into a bed and breakfast place right in the middle of the skinhead part of town... Scary.

[Sugar Hill Kevis]

That was a good read Comrade. I'm really familiar with the political climate in Croatia, but I've read about the growing tourist industry and how that is changing the face of many of Croatia's cities and towns - for the betterment of some avantageous businessmen but to the detriment of working people. The jobs is creates are seasonal and tourists are often gvien priority over the citizens.

[punisa]

First off, thanks a lot for the info, Comrade!

This is something I haven't experienced in Croatia at all, and I go there at least once a year. I did notice that a lot of the younger generation are very right-wing and nationalist.

Hi Caligula , thanks for reading :)

When I said that its really a bad idea to bring out advantages of a communist system in Croatia, I was actually referring to young people (as I am one myself). Trying to start a debate based on arguments with demographical sector that is 20-26 years old can really be a bad way to go.
Of course, people that are older and have more experience by living in the YU can tell you a lot of great things about former country.

Unfortunately middle aged folk, and especially intelligentsia, remained mostly silent to all the wrong doings that happened during the 90s. I know that they majority of them were strongly against it (from talking to many), but somehow they fell silent when needed to confront the loud majority.

Until this day I'm confused should I hold them responsible for their silence or agree that enraged crowd was too hard to face.

BTW, you mentioned Pula. I went there myself with my girlfriend last year, I dont think I'll be going again :(
We were just exploring local monuments in the town centre. Drifting to alleyways we suddenly got in front of this bar which actually had no windows (the big door was wide open).
Ustase music was banging from the inside, and this is like 2 pm !

As we were increasing speed to get away, one guy (probably 18 or so) rushes out with a bloody head and laughing hysterically. What kind of ritual that was,I got no idea, and I don't wanna know :huh:

[punisa]

That was a good read Comrade. I'm really familiar with the political climate in Croatia, but I've read about the growing tourist industry and how that is changing the face of many of Croatia's cities and towns - for the betterment of some avantageous businessmen but to the detriment of working people. The jobs is creates are seasonal and tourists are often gvien priority over the citizens.

Hi Comrade Kevis,

Glad you found it interesting :)

Tourism is indeed the brightest spot of Croatia's industry. The fact is, it always was. We are still trying to reach tourist numbers we had in 1989.
Slowly this is getting back to the pre-war statistics.
There are numerous obstacles, like huge areas covered with mines.
If you plan to visit Croatia, especially the coastal region you should stick to roads at all times and never wonder away to the nature.
We lost too many young lives due to the big amount of mine fields. Majority are found and have danger signs, but there is still lots of them hidden in the nature.

This is once again a huge deviation from the laws of war. Planting mine fields without any signed plans that could be used after the war in order to de-mine forests and woods is just not ok.

Regarding the tourism - we received many tourist from the Soviet bloc before the war. Actually majority of Soviet countries were forbidden to travel the world (something that Yugoslavia never lacked), their only "foreign" destination available was Yugoslavia.

I still remember them clearly although I was still a kid: Hunagarians, Czech, Russians, Polish, Slovenian, Serbian... but also English, Germans, Italians and so on.
These were basically middle class families.
Today hottest Croatia's destinations are packed with so called "elite" tourists.
For example Dubrovnik is most popular place now. Oprah Winfrey, Tom Cruise, Abramovich (and almost all russian oligarhs), Roger Moore, Bono Vox etc etc, all visit regularly.

Thing is that majority of these multi-billionaires act like gods and make sure to showe that. Actually there was a typical incident just 30 minutes before I started writing this post.

A group of rich Frenchmen (doctors, professors, politicians) are visiting Dubrovnik today. They organized a huge yacht parade around the city, a great way to show off wealth. But that is not all.
Today afternoon they set sail for the national park on the island Mljet.
They got there drunk, drugged and wasted. When they arrived they refused to pay a pass for entering the national park. When they got inside this natural paradise they pissed (urinated) and hanged condoms all over a small old chapel which is situated inside the park.

On their way back they molested the local people in the small village and were breaking their stuff, bicycles, windows and such.

One must ask himself, is this the tourism that we are struggling for?
They are awful rich and powerful, so we should bow down and humbly ask for a dollar/euro? Fuck that man, I'd rather hang myself.

[redSHARP]

i would like to thank you for writing this post.

i would also like to thank the croatian facist for spreading their scum to the US. since Thompson, the croatian nazi band came to NYC, i now know that there is still a nazi current in my city that i have to destroy.

however, is it safe to assume the most croatians support right wing tendencies? what is the political spectrum break down? are there any local anti-fa groups in the area? i know there are some R.A.S.H crew in the balkans, maybe they can help and solidify a leftist bloc.

[punisa]

i would like to thank you for writing this post.

i would also like to thank the croatian facist for spreading their scum to the US. since Thompson, the croatian nazi band came to NYC, i now know that there is still a nazi current in my city that i have to destroy.

however, is it safe to assume the most croatians support right wing tendencies? what is the political spectrum break down? are there any local anti-fa groups in the area? i know there are some R.A.S.H crew in the balkans, maybe they can help and solidify a leftist bloc.

Croatia is approximately 4,5 million people and such a number must provide a full political spectrum, claiming otherwise would be just wrong. Of course there are a lot of left oriented people in the country, but they tend to keep a low profile.
Majority is indeed right, but that is 6.6.2008. We are all hoping for the left to start coming out.

One of the problems we are facing is the lack of left politics. Social democratic party is there just to ease the tensions of capitalism, but they are usually even more corrupt then the right wingers.
In the conclusion, we are lacking a public political outlet we could join.
Organizations are also very very scarce. There are some green parties which mostly use such terms to hide themselves from public criticism.

Croatian Communist Party was supposed to be established couple of years back, but the government crushed it by tons of legal papers why it cant be organized.

In the overall political absence of left our only struggle is to publish articles in hope of making someone stop and think. Then again you have no writing freedom. Publishing anything related to the war that is not compatible with the existent theories will make your life unsafe.

Another fact that must be noted regarding the Croatian left is that many people who are ideologically left are struggling with themselves.
I guess we're entering the realms of philosophy/psychology here, but fresh war memories can be very poisonous for one's thoughts.

The ideas of "brotherhood and unity" which were repeated billion times over 50 year period (during the existence of Yugoslavia) were challenged to an unimaginable degree.
Being sent to the front line to kill the man which was just yesterday crucial part of the "brotherhood and unity" idea left big scars on people's minds.

We are facing a lot of PTSP in Croatia. Suicides, drug abuse and murder is linked to PTSP in many cases.

Maybe I didn't pay enough attention in the past, but I believe that national television in Croatia is actually bombing people with war images more and more these days.
An early morning TV show I used to like to watch is called "TV calendar", basically it shows stories from the past on today's date. Before it used to be WW1 and WW2, 19st and similar. Now a day doesn't go by that they don't put something related to 1991 and war.

Ironically speaking, it makes one hate Serbs from the moment he gets out of bed. This is really sad stuff.

Books and documentaries are being made by so called "historians" which are heavily promoted by media. All of these are more or less crap. From WW2 up to now, stuff is just being made up.

Probably for the fact that Croatia is still not a member of EU, all this goes unnoticed.
Especially the Thompson freak show. I couldn't believe NYC let this happen there? Again I blame the lack of info for Thompson having his concerts worldwide.
Recently his concerts were banned from some EU countries like Netherlands, but he is still very welcome in Germany and Austria.

Whenever his concert gets banned , church leaders in Croatia call it an "outrage" because he is "a true national hero". Bah, I heard it so many times it's getting silly.

But to answer your question. Yes, there are leftist, Marxist and communists in Croatia. They are usually comprised of intellectual circles.
But these people are no streetfighters ready to exchange punches with the metal-bar-carrying-shaved-heads-dressed-in-black.

Although this makes no sense and seems as contradictory statement, but joining EU will put Croatia under the spotlight which would need to eliminate open endorsment of Ustase regime. Left might have a bigger chance in such environment, although my feelings for the EU are very mixed.

[communard resolution]

There are some green parties which mostly use such terms to hide themselves from public criticism.Are the Croatian green parties worth supporting?


Books and documentaries are being made by so called "historians" which are heavily promoted by media. All of these are more or less crap. From WW2 up to now, stuff is just being made up.Are there any Croatian books on Tito's Yugoslavia that are trustworthy and not rightwing?


Especially the Thompson freak show. Yes, that's shocking. I believe it's the same in Serbia, where Ritam Nereda are now one of the most popular rock bands.

When I passed a newspaper stand in Zagreb with a Croatian friend of mine, I asked her "what are the left-wing and what are the right-wing or liberal newspapers in Croatia?" She said "there is no such thing as right-wing or left-wing papers. Croatian newspapers just write the truth." I didn't say anything, but given that she holds very 'mainstream rightwing' views without being too political, I concluded that Croatian dailies must all be rightwing. True?

[3A CCCP]

It seems to me that the fascist and ultra-nationalist mindset of certain ethnic or national groups is almost impossible to eliminate entirely, and when the restraint of a Communist government is removed this mentality rises to the surface again.

An analogy to Croatia is Western Ukraine. Western Ukraine (main cities being Lviv, Ivano-Frankovsk) has been a historic hotbed of ultra-nationalism, anti-semitism, and fascism. During the Great Patriotic War the (Western) Ukrainian Insurgent Army and bandit gangs led by Stepan Bendera fought for the Nazis.

Despite the fact that the Soviet Army hunted down and liquidated Bendera and the last of the organized Western Ukrainian fascists by 1953, 40 years later the ugly face of the neo-fascists of the Western Ukrainians showed itself again after the dissolution of the USSR.

A similar situation to Croatia exists today in Western Ukraine. The only difference is that while the Ukrainian government of President Yushchenko and Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko supports the Western Ukrainian line, the majority of the Ukrainian people oppose this neo-fascism. The regions east and south of Kiev remain socialistic in mindset and oppose the right-wing government, neo-fascism, and joining NATO.

This stubborn hold that fascism and right wing politics has on certain peoples is baffling to me. Especially, after all the years of Socialist education!

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

[communard resolution]

It seems to me that the fascist and ultra-nationalist mindset of certain ethnic or national groups is almost impossible to eliminate entirely, and when the restraint of a Communist government is removed this mentality rises to the surface again.Curious then that I have not detected a trace of fascism in the mindset of any Croat who is old enough to remember Tito's Yugoslavia. I have spoken to many, and I still freqeuently do: all of them feel nostalgic for the YU days when ethnicity was irrelevant. It's an entirely different matter with people who have grown up with the likes of Tudjman and Milosevic, as well as the younger generation who is being brainwashed into extreme nationalism 24/7: young Croats are predominately rightwing.

I don't think there is any ethnic or national group whose mindset is nationalist or fascist by default. People are conditioned into such absurd ideas, and in Croatia this conditioning has begun in the late 80s.

EDIT: Chances are there will always be a few provocateurs in every society who will attempt to stir nationalist feelings in their thirst for personal power. I therefore fully support Tito's removing such elements from society and sending them to a rather well-known island.

[thejambo1]

good thread here, i am very interested in the former yugoslav states and its good to hear from someone at the sharp end. i think most new countries will go through a very nationalistic phase and this will always be hijacked by right wing elements. hopefully the left will start to get an influence again in croatia and other countries in the region.

[3A CCCP]

Curious then that I have not detected a trace of fascism in the mindset of any Croat who is old enough to remember Tito's Yugoslavia. I have spoken to many, and I still freqeuently do: all of them feel nostalgic for the YU days when ethnicity was irrelevant. It's an entirely different matter with people who have grown up with the likes of Tudjman and Milosevic, as well as the younger generation who is being brainwashed into extreme nationalism 24/7: young Croats are predominately rightwing.

I don't think there is any ethnic or national group whose mindset is nationalist or fascist by default. People are conditioned into such absurd ideas, and in Croatia this conditioning has begun in the late 80s.

EDIT: Chances are there will always be a few provocateurs in every society who will attempt to stir nationalist feelings in their thirst for personal power. I therefore fully support Tito's removing such elements from society and sending them to a rather well-known island.

I wasn't implying that a fascist mindset is somehow genetic in any particular ethnic group. But, a long history of chauvinism, ethnic/racial ideology, etc.in a country is difficult to totally eradicate from a culture. Especially, in only a couple of generations.

Another problem is that fascism's ideology is simple, and appeals to the baser instincts of the individual. You don't have to be the brightest crayon in the box to understand the message.

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

[Red_or_Dead]

Zdravo,


Thanks comrade, that was a really good read. I didnt have any idea that it is that bad. I mean, over here we heard a lot about Thompson and the Croatian nationalist youth, but I never thought that they are that powerfull.


Speaking of democracy, there is none, cause the election process is useless (its only the exchange of rulers, as I mentioned above).
This is a hard one to deal with. Probably the hardest one.
Seeing a change, or at least some improvements, on the horizon would actually be enough for me and people alike.
Thing is there is none.


This sounds very familiar. I guess that it is the case pretty much all across the former Yugoslavia. Our politicians are pretty much the same now as they were in 1990. Our foreign minister Dimitrij Rupel (Im sure you heard of him- the guy that would gladly sell us to the US army for a night in Bushs bed) has actualy been in that function since then. Others are just changing seats.



Probably for the fact that Croatia is still not a member of EU, all this goes unnoticed.


Hope that it wont be. Having no border controls and paying in Euros is NOT worth it. Really. We were all excited when we started getting those things, but then... High inflation, sudden rising of the basic necesities... Those are all things that experts put down on the Euro. Non-government , of course, the government would never admit that the Euro (for which they have taken all credit that we have it) is to blame.


Croatian Communist Party was supposed to be established couple of years back, but the government crushed it by tons of legal papers why it cant be organized.


Wait... So youre saying that you cant start a communist party in Croatia?
Fuck... That does suck.



With all that said, I have a question:

You probably know about the border dispute between Slovenia and Croatia. How much coverage does that get in the media? Over here, its big. All the politicians are trying to use it for their election campaigns.




I therefore fully support Tito's removing such elements from society and sending them to a rather well-known island.


Thats what I always think when I watch our politicians on TV: Why are these here, when there is a perfectly good concentration camp on Goli Otok, and its not even being used? Btw. No sarcasm. Im dead serious.

[BIG BROTHER]

Its really sad to hear how bad the current situation is in Croatia, any leftists group there seems will have a huge challenge.

[DancingLarry]

Your description of both the common mindset of the Croatian people and the truth of the political economy in Croatia remind me of something I know much better: the common mindset and the political economy of the US!

Edited to add:): No wonder the two governments get along so well.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Comrades, are there any cross-border ties between communist or working class groups from different countries of former Yugoslavia? I think the only way to beat nationalism is to try to recreate the ties that existed in the Tito era.

[punisa]

Comrades, are there any cross-border ties between communist or working class groups from different countries of former Yugoslavia? I think the only way to beat nationalism is to try to recreate the ties that existed in the Tito era.

Very unlikely to happen. You see there are still many controversies surrounding the war, although 20 years have gone by. Let me try to explain..
Neither side is still sure why this war actually happened? Was it nationalism, foreign intervention, opportunistic bourgeois, fascism, plans for "greater Serbia", Croatia's separatism, WW2 conflicts (causalities) or just common stupidity?

Probably a little bit of everything. Then we have unresolved situations like the number of dead and the 250,000 Serbs that were expelled from their homes.
Then there is Bosnia - a country that equally accommodates all three conflicting sides - Croats, Serbs and Muslim.

Another strong factor that makes Croatia's politics worthless is huge foreign debt. Croatia is actually under mortgage to the EU (thanks to politicians) and as such its only way out (or even deeper) is to join the EU - once that happens (expected 2009-2011) local politics will become puppet politics.

If Yugoslav wars were fought at even some degree of war ethics, it might be easier, unfortunately majority of battles ended in genocide conducted mainly by paramilitary troops (backed up by national armies).

Tito had good plans for the country, although he managed to create great things, there are also situations where he failed miserably. Personally I do not think this is his fault, but the climate of his closest governmental advisers which were only communist because Tito made it "popular", underneath they were all just nationalists waiting for Tito to die.

As soon as Tito died (May 4, 1980) Communist party fell apart in a huge wave of power struggle which ultimately led to war.

No matter how charismatic you are you will never be able to get masses to go to war or start a revolution if they have everything provided for - but life standards were also crumbling after Tito dies, unemployment rose and foreign debt grew larger.
Communist society was becoming more and more corrupted. People were getting good jobs, even apartments, land and houses just by knowing some high party official.
Then the majority of profits from the richest regions (Croatia and Slovenia) started drifting away to Serbia and Belgrade.
Hard working people could not stand for that anymore, the ideals of classless society became just a myth.

Communist party betrayed all the promises and started acting like the worst capitalists, then the USSR came down and the idea of separation arose. Unfortunately growing demand for democracy and dismounting of Communist Yugoslavia led many extreme nationalists to power - they dug out WW2 and Croat-Serbian conflicts were on again, after 50 years of peace.
As the war started in 1991 something unimaginable happened - for the end of 20th century, something nobody believed would be possible, especially after peaceful fall of USSR - mass killings of civilians based on their nationality - women, children and elderly were dragged out of their beds only to be slaughtered hours after. Everyone side did it.

Did someone stand against it and condemned it? No. It was approved by everyone: people, masses, politics, religion, individuals...

Turn these societies into communism again ? You'd probably be better off in trying to land on Jupiter.

My only concern is stop growth of fascism and avoid any future conflicts - which are sure to happen if the current climate continues.

Yugoslavia was a beautiful idea, it was based on "brotherhood and unity" and on the centuries long struggle for united South Slavic tribe.
Today we have enough information and facts to claim that Tito did not destroy Yugoslavia, neither did the Commie party, neither did the "outside" world - Comrades, Yugoslavia was torn down by its own people.

Yeah, hurts to say it, but we leftists should be objective and try not to look away from the truth.

[punisa]

You probably know about the border dispute between Slovenia and Croatia. How much coverage does that get in the media? Over here, its big. All the politicians are trying to use it for their election campaigns.

Sure we do Comrade,
For those that are not informed: Croatia and Slovenia have been fighting (politically) over a small piece of land in the Northern Adriatic for some time now.
Although this means shit to the majority of people, local governments (Slo and Cro) made it look like a huge international conflict.
The true story is - they use such situations (at least the Croatian side, which I'm knowledgeable of) only to cover up personal affairs.

This led to some extreme hate towards other nation (again, at least the Croatian side, which I'm knowledgeable of) which is totally unjustified ! But local politics has been doing this for two decades now - "hate thy neighbour" is their motto.
As a results, majority of Croats hate everyone - Serbs, Slovenians, Bosnians, Italians, Hungarians and so on.

Just a couple of days ago on Croatia's coast, a gang attacked a 50 year old Slovenian and totally demolished his car cause he had Slovenian licence plates ! Was it in the news? NO ! I know of this only as I have multiple eye witnesses.

Fuck, hatred towards other nations just because government teaches you so? When I check my dictionary under that is says: FASCISM !

[VukBZ2005]

I have been keeping a close eye on this thread for some time and I would like to reply to a certain part of a post that was recently authored by punisa.


Turn these societies into communism again ? You'd probably be better off in trying to land on Jupiter.Punisa, the countries that once made up the "Socialist" Federative Republic of Yugoslavia/Jugoslavija, and, the various social, cultural and political institutions that existed in these countries, that is, when they were just constituent republics of the "Socialist" Federative Republic of Yugoslavia/Jugoslavija, were never truly Communist at all, much less Socialist.

The reason that I have for stating that this is the case has to do with the fact that, in the system of "workers' self-management" that existed in the "Socialist" Yugoslavia/Jugoslavija, the workers' councils that were at the center of this system only really had the responsibilities of setting their own wage payment rates, appointing the manager or director of the various factories, hotels, schools and offices in which they existed in, and, the ability to control the directors or managers that they appointed. They were not in actual control of the means of production, and, they were not able to actually decide the actual economic policies that the country pursued because of this lack of control over the means of production, thus, making these workers' councils appendages of the existing Leninistic Bureaucratic apparatus that were the actual controllers of the economic and political dimensions of the "Socialist" Federative Republic of Yugoslavia/Jugoslavija.

In a society that is either in transition to becoming a Communist society (Socialism), or, a society that is Communist, and, that is based on a system of actual workers' self-management, the workers' councils do not serve as appendages to some Leninistic bureaucracy, but, make up the heart of the political and economical dimensions of such a society, due to their absolute control over the means of production, in addition to their association to the common property that all individuals in society have control over.

So, I have to ask you, how can the reverting of these former constituent republics to a supposedly existent situation of Communism or a supposedly existent situation of Socialism be carried out by the working class of these former constituent republics, that is, in a revolutionary situation, if, once again, these former constituent republics were never in either of these situations to begin with?

[abrupt]

Very good read.

How did the war between Croatia and Serbia start up again? I know you said the fall of Yugoslavia was the reason, but who started it and was it both sides trying to eliminate eachother or one dominant group?

[punisa]

I have been keeping a close eye on this thread for some time and I would like to reply to a certain part of a post that was recently authored by punisa.

Punisa, the countries that once made up the "Socialist" Federative Republic of Yugoslavia/Jugoslavija, and, the various social, cultural and political institutions that existed in these countries, that is, when they were just constituent republics of the "Socialist" Federative Republic of Yugoslavia/Jugoslavija, were never truly Communist at all, much less Socialist.

The reason that I have for stating that this is the case has to do with the fact that, in the system of "workers' self-management" that existed in the "Socialist" Yugoslavia/Jugoslavija, the workers' councils that were at the center of this system only really had the responsibilities of setting their own wage payment rates, appointing the manager or director of the various factories, hotels, schools and offices in which they existed in, and, the ability to control the directors or managers that they appointed. They were not in actual control of the means of production, and, they were not able to actually decide the actual economic policies that the country pursued because of this lack of control over the means of production, thus, making these workers' councils appendages of the existing Leninistic Bureaucratic apparatus that were the actual controllers of the economic and political dimensions of the "Socialist" Federative Republic of Yugoslavia/Jugoslavija.

In a society that is either in transition to becoming a Communist society (Socialism), or, a society that is Communist, and, that is based on a system of actual workers' self-management, the workers' councils do not serve as appendages to some Leninistic bureaucracy, but, make up the heart of the political and economical dimensions of such a society, due to their absolute control over the means of production, in addition to their association to the common property that all individuals in society have control over.



Hi Communist FireFox, thanks for reading :)

When we define socialism/communism you are completely correct. I keep mentioning "communist Yugoslavia" because it became a matter of speech in folk, I admit that this is wrong, but here the term "communist" is often used to describe former country - so guys beware if I slip the Communist phrase too often :lol:



So, I have to ask you, how can the reverting of these former constituent republics to a supposedly existent situation of Communism or a supposedly existent situation of Socialism be carried out by the working class of these former constituent republics, that is, in a revolutionary situation, if, once again, these former constituent republics were never in either of these situations to begin with?

Thats the big Q there. If these republics were exposed to "leftist" government, the communism idea might be much more doable.

Was former Yugoslavia heading for true communism in the future is another huge debate, but people of Croatia (before the war started) voted 90+ % on the national referendum to separate away from Yugoslavia and seek western capitalist-democracy.
I don't even have to point out that the majority of so-called working class voted this way.

One might say, people have spoken - they refuse to continue the pursue for classless society.

As for the economic principles of Yugoslavia, even workers self-management (radničko samoupravljanje) tended to develop/change over time.
Although, as you stated, the possibility of workers to control the management sounds good - it was not always that easy and fair.

You are probably aware that directors and top managerial positions were usually given to those who were politically preferable. Usually this meant that you had to be in the communist party, otherwise you could not advance in your career.

Giving the highest responsibilities to the people that were not the most capable to handle them was a huge economical error right from the start.

Economics is a subject that goes further then politics - be it socialism or capitalism you always have certain people that will make a company successful and you always have those that will drive it to bankruptcy.

Many individuals were given positions that were far beyond their scope - very bad and very unfair (not to say - corrupt).

Another statistically proven fact was that majority of the highest positions (in Croatia) like directors, chiefs of police etc. were held by Serbs - something stinks again. Don't get me wrong, I'm not judging anyone's capability, but this was the situation (especially in the 80's).

So what is there to conclude? The whole topic is still rather grey. Was the nationalism something that was destined to happen? Was it that strong for half a century?

When talking about this, I heard from someone a rather radical idea - Tito should have worked from the start to completely "erase" the republics' borders from the map. No Serbia, no Croatia, no Bosnia etc. - only one country Yugoslavia and its nation - Yugoslav.
Crazy or clever?

[Red_or_Dead]

Although this means shit to the majority of people, local governments (Slo and Cro) made it look like a huge international conflict.
The true story is - they use such situations (at least the Croatian side, which I'm knowledgeable of) only to cover up personal affairs.


Same here. Basicly, when a politician wants to get elected, he goes to the border and provokes an incident, all of which is caught by a team from the Slovenian government TV, who "just happen to be in the area".



Yugoslavia was a beautiful idea, it was based on "brotherhood and unity" and on the centuries long struggle for united South Slavic tribe.
Today we have enough information and facts to claim that Tito did not destroy Yugoslavia, neither did the Commie party, neither did the "outside" world - Comrades, Yugoslavia was torn down by its own people.



No Serbia, no Croatia, no Bosnia etc. - only one country Yugoslavia and its nation - Yugoslav.
Crazy or clever?

These two I have to disagree with. If we put aside the ideology (since Yugoslavia existed first as a monarchy, only later as a socialist republic), I am very much against the pan-slavic ideals that were behind the forming of the first Yugoslavia (or the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, as it was called at first) after WW1, ESPECIALY to the way it was done at first, with Serbia (the winner of WW1) being a sort of a "savior nation" to the rest of us, who were on the losing side, as a part of the Austro Hungarian empire.

Then it is, as I said, the slavic nationalism part. Yugoslavia was meant as a union of south slavs, with little regard to other non-slavic populations on the teritory (most notably the Albanians, who never got an equal status as the rest of us).

That is imo when Tito went severly wrong, when he divided the country into socialist republics, based on ethnicity, instead of geographical regions (like the pre-WW2 banovinas).



So what is there to conclude? The whole topic is still rather grey. Was the nationalism something that was destined to happen? Was it that strong for half a century?


Nationalism is something that is so deeply integrated into human society, that it would take far more than fifty years to pull it out. Even tho we might have lived in "brotherhood and unity", differences in culture, religion, language and history were more than aparent, and the Tito regime did very little about it too. Infact, patriotism was still very present in the educational system. And not just patriotism to Yugoslavia (that too), but towards ones nationality, although Im guessing not nearly as much as in todays succesor states.


One might say, people have spoken - they refuse to continue the pursue for classless society.


Well, so they have, but did they know what they were talking about, and would they decide the same way, knowing what was about to happen?

Yugonostalgia is high and growing. Maybe not so much in Croatia (you know that better then I do), but over here people are starting to realize what they had and what they traded it for. Im sure that Slovenian, Croatian and Bosnian independance referendums would not be nearly as succesfull, if people knew back then what consequences would arise. And with those consequences I dont just mean the war, but also fully embracing capitalism.

[punisa]

Very good read.

How did the war between Croatia and Serbia start up again? I know you said the fall of Yugoslavia was the reason, but who started it and was it both sides trying to eliminate eachother or one dominant group?

For the fact that already two decades have gone by since the dawn of war I should be able to answer your question - yeah, I "should", but I'm not.
The same question I've been asking myself all these years.

Of course many theories arose, but I won't recite them cause they're mostly bias crap.

When I look back now, my first memories of the war are the air raid sirens, soviet made MIGs cracking the sky and some nationalistic (extreme) songs that were handed around to people on an unlabelled audio-cassettes (?).

It was like: "where the hell did this come from?".
Soon the war gets under your skin, 7 o'clock news reports about casualties, burnt villages and cities.
In a couple of months we were out of electricity for days, those were the freakiest days cause when you loose access to radio, news and TV all you are left of is local rumours - these can lead to some catastrophic psychological scars on people.

Like for once you hear that the enemy troops have broken inside the city and are slaughtering people building by building. Soon another "report" arrives which says they made it to this very street and are currently killing civilians in the building number 17 - and you happen to be 21 - woohoo just another 30 minutes before I meet my maker/slayer.

Ok ok, enough of war memories, back to your question :laugh:

Let me briefly summarize all the hate that led to war:
1. Croats and Serbs were living in some sort of union from the oldest times. Habsburg monarchy, Austria-Hungary, Turkish invaders, SHS kingdom (Serbs,Croats,Slovenians kingdom), Kingdom of Yugoslavia (yep, there was another older Yugoslavia)

2. political tensions were always there, basically because the territory.
There was a historic Croatia's King town called Knin which was invaded by Turks. When fighting of Turks in the centuries to come this area was again populated by Croats, but also Serbs who helped fight the Turkish invaders.

3. WW2 - Kingdom of Yugoslavia was swiftly occupied by Nazi Germany and Italy (in just a few days).
Croatia became a notorious Nazi puppet state called NDH (independent state of Croatia or in Croatian: nezavisna država Hrvatska).
Pro-nazi military in Croatia was called Ustaše (spelled: ustashas, translation: uprisers).

Jasenovac concentration camp was formed by Ustasha in Croatia where huge genocides towards the Serbs and Jews were commited. Numbers are heavily disputed, but some estimates talk about 700,000 killed in this hell hole.
The extermination of humans was so bad that even German Nazi generals stationed in Croatia made official letters to Hitler to "do something" to stop this.

Many religious officials and church endorsed these crimes

4. Partisans and their leader Josip Broz Tito liberated Yugoslavia from Nazi Germany and afterwards created Socialist Yugoslavia under the motto of "brotherhood and unity".
It must be noted that many partisans were actually Croatian (as was Tito himself) and were fighting against Germans, Italians and Ustasha Croatians.

Another thing to point is that because of the fact that Yugoslavia was liberated by its own people (without the aid of Red Army) it managed to avoid becoming a part of USSR.

5. Since the end of WW2 till 1990. Yugoslavia remained peaceful, but late 80's (after Tito died in 1980.) were seeing the rise of western democracy. Some politicians were devoting themselves to create the multi party system.
Croatia (and Slovenia) were starting to demand higher autonomy - in order to be less dependant on the influence of Belgrade (capital of today's Serbia).
After some talks failed, both republics (Slo and Cro) decided to hold referendums where people were asked if they want to remain as a part of Yugoslavia or not.
Majority voted "NO".

Serbia did not want to let these republics go peacefully and engaged army in order to "hold" Yugoslavia together.
War in Slovenia was rather short, as the Yugoslav army could not reach it successfully - Croatia was in the way.

As Croatia had huge Serbian minority - these were also uprising against the Croatian voted separation. Soon Yugoslav army (now constituted solely of Serbs and Montenegro people) invaded Croatia - in 1991.

6. As soon as Serbs invaded Croatia - Croats began killing Serb civilians and vice-versa.
Who started first? Guess they kinda started at the same time.
Serbs advanced throughout the eastern Croatia and were claiming territory.

7. It took some time before Croatia got around and fully armed itself - once it did it launched several successful counter attacks (research operation Flash and operation Storm to find out more) that ended the war. These also resulted in mass emigration of Serb population from Croatia, hundreds of thousands.

8. Now we're here :glare:

I realize I only gave you the war outline, not who started it . sorry for that.

Majority of people say the Serbs started it. I guess it depends from what point you look at.
Croatia's view: Serbs invaded because we wanted to leave Yugoslavia
Serbia's view: We invaded because Croatia wanted to leave Yugoslavia

See? same crap - you decide who started it.
But the aggressor was Serbia here, that is undisputed - Croatia never invaded Serb land.
Also Serbia was not very much concerned about keeping Croatia in Yugoslavia in order to pursue socialist ideology together - it was mainly a war for conquer, a part of plan to create so called "Greater Serbia".

Serbia was led by Slobodan Milošević - who eventually died in Hague prison when his own people brought him to justice.
Croatia was led by Franjo Tudman - another shady character who was also dreaming about expanding territory, but never got around to do it.
The two were probably the worst thing that ever happened to these nations.

Again, these are just some of my views, very brief and probably somewhat bias.

All in all this adds another segment to the explanation of the topic - "Situation it today's Croatia".

It would be great if other former Yugoslavs extended/add to this debate - especially Bosnian, Serbian and Slovenian Comrades :). Cause you need to hear different views to get the big picture.

See ya soon

[punisa]

Same here. Basicly, when a politician wants to get elected, he goes to the border and provokes an incident, all of which is caught by a team from the Slovenian government TV, who "just happen to be in the area".

same crap here Comrade. Local media describes it as if it were not for the NATO and EU admiration, our countries would go to war over a few kilos of stinking fish :laugh:



These two I have to disagree with. If we put aside the ideology (since Yugoslavia existed first as a monarchy, only later as a socialist republic), I am very much against the pan-slavic ideals that were behind the forming of the first Yugoslavia (or the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, as it was called at first) after WW1, ESPECIALY to the way it was done at first, with Serbia (the winner of WW1) being a sort of a "savior nation" to the rest of us, who were on the losing side, as a part of the Austro Hungarian empire.

Then it is, as I said, the slavic nationalism part. Yugoslavia was meant as a union of south slavs, with little regard to other non-slavic populations on the teritory (most notably the Albanians, who never got an equal status as the rest of us).

That is imo when Tito went severly wrong, when he divided the country into socialist republics, based on ethnicity, instead of geographical regions (like the pre-WW2 banovinas).As to why Tito divided Yugoslavia according to ethnicity always puzzled me.
Keeping it small, ( for foreign readers: local smaller districts were called "banovinas" ) nation could suffer much less ethnical conflicts.

Imagine USA being only few states! If there was only Arizona, New York and Nevada, wouldn't that decrease the stability?

I see your point.



Nationalism is something that is so deeply integrated into human society, that it would take far more than fifty years to pull it out. The only answer I see for this is communism. Probably the main reason why I'm so stuck on it :cool:


Even tho we might have lived in "brotherhood and unity", differences in culture, religion, language and history were more than aparent, and the Tito regime did very little about it too. Infact, patriotism was still very present in the educational system. And not just patriotism to Yugoslavia (that too), but towards ones nationality, although Im guessing not nearly as much as in todays succesor states.I remember those days well Comrade. I believe that these were not Tito's wishes. Although we come to think of him as the almighty father of Yugoslavia, I tend to believe that he had to bend his ideology many times in order to stay on power and prevent those who would rather see him gone from taking it.


Yugonostalgia is high and growing. Maybe not so much in Croatia (you know that better then I do), but over here people are starting to realize what they had and what they traded it for. I'll confess - many times I'm jealous of you guys (Slovenians) :lol:
I see your Yugonostalgia and its growth, but here (Croatia) it exist as well, but we're kept (forced) down and quiet about it.

Small note: Another thing is that we should have at least a political organization that would constitute all former nation members.

[Harrycombs]

Wow, I had heard of Yugoslavia, but I never knew anything about the country. I can't believe that humans can act so cruelly in this day and age. :crying:

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Turn these societies into communism again ? You'd probably be better off in trying to land on Jupiter.

My only concern is stop growth of fascism and avoid any future conflicts - which are sure to happen if the current climate continues.
If it happened before, it can happen again. Was fascism not rampant in Croatia during WW2? The Ustase were far worse, far more fascist and more violent than the capitalist regime in present-day Croatia... Yet after all the hatred and bloodshed between Croats and Serbs in WW2, it was possible to bring them together and unite them in a country aiming for communism. If it was possible then, it is possible now.

Of course, the conditions were different. There was a war going on. It's a lot easier to change things, and to change people's minds, in times of war than in times of peace.

But still, time is on our side. Sure, there won't be any communist revival in Croatia tomorrow, or next year. But in 20, 30 years? Maybe.

[punisa]

If it happened before, it can happen again. Was fascism not rampant in Croatia during WW2? The Ustase were far worse, far more fascist and more violent than the capitalist regime in present-day Croatia... Yet after all the hatred and bloodshed between Croats and Serbs in WW2, it was possible to bring them together and unite them in a country aiming for communism. If it was possible then, it is possible now.

Not quite I'm afraid... you see - Croatian partisans were fighting (along with Serbs,Muslims and other nationalities) against Croatian Ustashas and never actually converted them - instead they killed many Croatian fascist in a huge massacre called the Bleiburg massacre (a town in todays Austria).
Majority of fascist oriented people escaped Croatia (and Yugoslavia) and went to live abroad (major refuge spots: USA, Canada, South America, Australia).

Chatolhic Church aided some high Ustasha officials to escape as well.

The ones that were for Yugoslavia stayed, but majority of them were not fascist in the first place.
I know, I know... it tends to get a little bit complicated.

So masses were not converted - a part that was for socialist Yugoslavia stayed, those that held fascist ideology ran away (or were killed running).

50 years later, when war broke up in Croatia (1991) - many of these Ustasha fascist came back (those who were still alive) and their offspring (brought up by the strict fascist ideologies).
You would not believe how much is being put into details in raising young people in the fascist ideology all over US and Canada.

Again, not ALL Croats living abroad are like that, just a minority. So don't get me wrong here :lol:
But the ones that belong to these groups are very extreme and nurture Ustashas like something divine.

Once they got back, they helped separate Croatia from Yugoslavia - remember these were not your common working class, many of them were very rich and politically influential.

As these people played huge role in war for independence (1991-1995), they naturally expected that their ideologies be implemented in a way - and that's the result of Croatia today - huge religious influence, over-emphasise on family (as a sanctuary), hatred towards Serbs, public concerts/supports for Ustasha regime like well known Thompson concerts (this should be illegal).

[Red_or_Dead]

As to why Tito divided Yugoslavia according to ethnicity always puzzled me.


Well, since it happened directly after WW2 (infact, I believe that the plans were made even during it) and before that Tito-Stalin split, Im guessing that he simply copied the Soviet model.


I remember those days well Comrade. I believe that these were not Tito's wishes. Although we come to think of him as the almighty father of Yugoslavia, I tend to believe that he had to bend his ideology many times in order to stay on power and prevent those who would rather see him gone from taking it.

Then you must be of an older generation - I confess, I was still shiting in my dipers when the whole "breaking apart" thing happened. But I gather what I can from older people. Since most of them think positevely of Titos reign, they are a nice counter-balance to the government propaganda.


I'll confess - many times I'm jealous of you guys (Slovenians) :lol:
I see your Yugonostalgia and its growth, but here (Croatia) it exist as well, but we're kept (forced) down and quiet about it.


Well, there are a few things that you have to keep in mind when thinking about Yugonostalgia in Slovenia. As far as young people are concerned, most are into it because of turbo folk (foreign readers: a music type, originating from Serbia, Bosnia, and to a lesser extent Croatia and Slovenia. The details, I will spare. You dont want to know, trust me) and old movies. A few (I fancy myself as one of them) are "nostalgic" because we think that we would have better oportunities in those conditions, then we have today. Older people simply like to remember the "good old days".

The point behind this is, that while it may be nice, Yugonostalgia is not very usefull. People who are Yugonostalgics are not necessarily communists, socialists or leftists at all. And given the current situation in Europe... well, even if we (former Yugoslavs) could get around making a new SFRY, Im sure that given those condtitions, it would still be just a pipe-dream.


If it happened before, it can happen again. Was fascism not rampant in Croatia during WW2? The Ustase were far worse, far more fascist and more violent than the capitalist regime in present-day Croatia... Yet after all the hatred and bloodshed between Croats and Serbs in WW2, it was possible to bring them together and unite them in a country aiming for communism. If it was possible then, it is possible now.

Of course, the conditions were different. There was a war going on. It's a lot easier to change things, and to change people's minds, in times of war than in times of peace.

But still, time is on our side. Sure, there won't be any communist revival in Croatia tomorrow, or next year. But in 20, 30 years? Maybe.

What Punisa said and:

the time in which it happend for the first time was hugely different. I mean, back then communism (or at least its distorted Soviet version) was a force to be reckoned with. Not today, regardless of what fantasies we might be having about it. It was influential, more people were sympathetic to it. Not today.

I agree that this is something that will change over time, after all it has only been a few years since the war ended, and the wounds are still fresh, but as I said before, this is something that will take not 50 years but a lot more to get out of the peoples minds.


50 years later, when war broke up in Croatia (1991) - many of these Ustasha fascist came back (those who were still alive) and their offspring (brought up by the strict fascist ideologies).
You would not believe how much is being put into details in raising young people in the fascist ideology all over US and Canada.


Familiar as well. Our diasporas are killing us.

[abrupt]

For the fact that already two decades have gone by since the dawn of war I should be able to answer your question - yeah, I "should", but I'm not.
The same question I've been asking myself all these years.

Of course many theories arose, but I won't recite them cause they're mostly bias crap.

When I look back now, my first memories of the war are the air raid sirens, soviet made MIGs cracking the sky and some nationalistic (extreme) songs that were handed around to people on an unlabelled audio-cassettes (?).

It was like: "where the hell did this come from?".
Soon the war gets under your skin, 7 o'clock news reports about casualties, burnt villages and cities.
In a couple of months we were out of electricity for days, those were the freakiest days cause when you loose access to radio, news and TV all you are left of is local rumours - these can lead to some catastrophic psychological scars on people.

Like for once you hear that the enemy troops have broken inside the city and are slaughtering people building by building. Soon another "report" arrives which says they made it to this very street and are currently killing civilians in the building number 17 - and you happen to be 21 - woohoo just another 30 minutes before I meet my maker/slayer.

Ok ok, enough of war memories, back to your question :laugh:

Let me briefly summarize all the hate that led to war:
1. Croats and Serbs were living in some sort of union from the oldest times. Habsburg monarchy, Austria-Hungary, Turkish invaders, SHS kingdom (Serbs,Croats,Slovenians kingdom), Kingdom of Yugoslavia (yep, there was another older Yugoslavia)

2. political tensions were always there, basically because the territory.
There was a historic Croatia's King town called Knin which was invaded by Turks. When fighting of Turks in the centuries to come this area was again populated by Croats, but also Serbs who helped fight the Turkish invaders.

3. WW2 - Kingdom of Yugoslavia was swiftly occupied by Nazi Germany and Italy (in just a few days).
Croatia became a notorious Nazi puppet state called NDH (independent state of Croatia or in Croatian: nezavisna država Hrvatska).
Pro-nazi military in Croatia was called Ustaše (spelled: ustashas, translation: uprisers).

Jasenovac concentration camp was formed by Ustasha in Croatia where huge genocides towards the Serbs and Jews were commited. Numbers are heavily disputed, but some estimates talk about 700,000 killed in this hell hole.
The extermination of humans was so bad that even German Nazi generals stationed in Croatia made official letters to Hitler to "do something" to stop this.

Many religious officials and church endorsed these crimes

4. Partisans and their leader Josip Broz Tito liberated Yugoslavia from Nazi Germany and afterwards created Socialist Yugoslavia under the motto of "brotherhood and unity".
It must be noted that many partisans were actually Croatian (as was Tito himself) and were fighting against Germans, Italians and Ustasha Croatians.

Another thing to point is that because of the fact that Yugoslavia was liberated by its own people (without the aid of Red Army) it managed to avoid becoming a part of USSR.

5. Since the end of WW2 till 1990. Yugoslavia remained peaceful, but late 80's (after Tito died in 1980.) were seeing the rise of western democracy. Some politicians were devoting themselves to create the multi party system.
Croatia (and Slovenia) were starting to demand higher autonomy - in order to be less dependant on the influence of Belgrade (capital of today's Serbia).
After some talks failed, both republics (Slo and Cro) decided to hold referendums where people were asked if they want to remain as a part of Yugoslavia or not.
Majority voted "NO".

Serbia did not want to let these republics go peacefully and engaged army in order to "hold" Yugoslavia together.
War in Slovenia was rather short, as the Yugoslav army could not reach it successfully - Croatia was in the way.

As Croatia had huge Serbian minority - these were also uprising against the Croatian voted separation. Soon Yugoslav army (now constituted solely of Serbs and Montenegro people) invaded Croatia - in 1991.

6. As soon as Serbs invaded Croatia - Croats began killing Serb civilians and vice-versa.
Who started first? Guess they kinda started at the same time.
Serbs advanced throughout the eastern Croatia and were claiming territory.

7. It took some time before Croatia got around and fully armed itself - once it did it launched several successful counter attacks (research operation Flash and operation Storm to find out more) that ended the war. These also resulted in mass emigration of Serb population from Croatia, hundreds of thousands.

8. Now we're here :glare:

I realize I only gave you the war outline, not who started it . sorry for that.

Majority of people say the Serbs started it. I guess it depends from what point you look at.
Croatia's view: Serbs invaded because we wanted to leave Yugoslavia
Serbia's view: We invaded because Croatia wanted to leave Yugoslavia

See? same crap - you decide who started it.
But the aggressor was Serbia here, that is undisputed - Croatia never invaded Serb land.
Also Serbia was not very much concerned about keeping Croatia in Yugoslavia in order to pursue socialist ideology together - it was mainly a war for conquer, a part of plan to create so called "Greater Serbia".

Serbia was led by Slobodan Milošević - who eventually died in Hague prison when his own people brought him to justice.
Croatia was led by Franjo Tudman - another shady character who was also dreaming about expanding territory, but never got around to do it.
The two were probably the worst thing that ever happened to these nations.

Again, these are just some of my views, very brief and probably somewhat bias.

All in all this adds another segment to the explanation of the topic - "Situation it today's Croatia".

It would be great if other former Yugoslavs extended/add to this debate - especially Bosnian, Serbian and Slovenian Comrades :). Cause you need to hear different views to get the big picture.

See ya soon

Thank you very much, that was an excellent timeline and analysis.
You answered many questions I also forgot to ask too.