Russia's Communists Blast Gorbachev's Call For Lenin's Burial

[3A CCCP]

Russia's Communists condemn Gorbachev's calls for Lenin reburial


04/06/2008 18:03 ST. PETERSBURG, June 4 (RIA Novosti) - Communists in northwest Russia have condemned former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev's calls for Lenin's body to be moved from his tomb on Red Square and given a standard burial.

Communist Party members in St. Petersburg and the surrounding Leningrad Region have demanded that Gorbachev have his Nobel Peace Prize, awarded in 1990, taken away for his statements.

"We will demand that Gorbachev's prize be withdrawn following his calls for vandalism of the architectural ensemble on Red Square," a party statement said.

Earlier on Wednesday, Gorbachev told journalists at a news conference that the removal and burial of the embalmed body of Bolshevik leader Vladimir Lenin was only a question of time.

"We should not do the grave-digging job right now, but we should certainly acknowledge that the mausoleum has lost its importance and that Vladimir Ilyich must be buried," Gorbachev said.

Lenin's body has been on public display in a glass case in a mausoleum on Red Square since his death in 1924. His continuing presence in the symbolic heart of Moscow has been an ongoing source of controversy since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991.

Demands to transfer the body of the architect of the 1917 Revolution to a regular cemetery have consistently been countered by Russian Communists, who insist that the tomb on Red Square remain the Soviet leader's final resting place.

Ivan Melnikov, deputy head of the Communist Party, called Gorbachev's statement on Wednesday "an attempt to exert pressure from those who are disturbed by the memories of the great achievements of the Soviet Union."

"Society will not allow this, and neither will we as a party. Politicians who say this do not know the view of the people," he said.

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

[Echo]

Personally, I think that they should cut him up into pieces and auction him off on e-bay. :)

[Die Neue Zeit]

I heard that there were plans to bury Lenin in that Federal Military Memorial Cemetery the government is building outside Moscow:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1582500/Vladimir-Putin's-last-resting-place---with-Stalin.html

[dirtycommiebastard]

Lenin never wanted to be turned into a demi-god, and put on display.

I strongly believe, his wishes should be respected and that he be put to rest finally.

[Holden Caulfield]

how would he be buried though?
with state honour, or when nobody is paying attention, and where will he be buried and what will the grave be like,

it would be easier to leave him where he is, i don't like the 'cult of Lenin' thing either but moving him can only bring problems

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

Yeah, they need to bury him at some point. He's basically just a pile of chemicals at this point. I mean really folks, its a dead body, and you've been staring at it for far too long.

[McCaine]

Considering how unlikely it is Lenin would have enjoyed the idea of being put in a mausoleum, the protests about 'denigrating socialism' and whatnot seem out of place. On the other hand, it might be a bad sign in terms of morale - confirming the idea that "socialism is dead" etc. etc.

[bcbm]

So what do these guys do besides denouncing Indiana Jones and trying to save a chemical laden corpse?

Yes, I am taking the piss, but really, that seems to be all we hear from the Russian Communist Party and I should hope they're doing things that are, ahem, more worthy of the attention of the working class than this sort of wankery.

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

The Russian Communist Party has its largest constituency in the old and infirm. And well...they tend to have declining vote totals.

[bcbm]

So they basically appeal to "soviet" nationalism?

[RedAnarchist]

I think they should bury him next to his mother (if possible) like he wanted. Maybe have a gravestone similar to that of Marx's.

[3A CCCP]

Since this thread is on the same subject, I am re-posting my message from the Lenin thread in History.

The lack of understanding regarding the significance of this issue appears to stem from the fact that most revleft list members are Americans and have the typical American arrogance and lack of understanding of the importance of cultural symbolism outside of their own narrow experience.

On the one hand, placing comrade Lenin’s body in the Mausoleum and creating a type of deification of him is repulsive and not Marxist-Leninist. But, if you think about it from a different perspective it was an ingenious move.

Comrade Lenin’s untimely death occurred when the Party was in the midst of a life and death struggle to win the hearts and minds of the people of the former Russian Empire. Just because there was a revolution everyone in the country didn’t suddenly become Communists. Few really understood what the Bolshevik Party was trying to accomplish.

How do you educate the population? Well, writing and disseminating books and literature is one way. The Alphabet of Communism/Азбука Коммунизма written in 1919 by Bukharin and Preobrazhenksy was an excellent primer about Communism for the common working man and peasant. I read it in the original Russian many years ago. The only problem was that 80% of the population was illiterate!

Getting into the Russian psyche through symbolism was the fastest and easiest method to win the illiterate worker and peasant over at that particular point in the history of the country. What symbolism was ingrained in the Russian mind for a millennium since the reign of Prince Vladimir? The symbolism of the Russian Orthodox Church!

Communists didn’t just accidentally happen to carry oversize portraits during parades and marches. The Russian mind was conditioned to this type of symbolism by the R.O. Church (the carrying of ikons and church banners) and the people felt comfortable with it. It was used with great effect by the Party.

Comrade Lenin’s open entombment in the Mausoleum on Red Square also was a form of propaganda using the symbolism of the R.O. Church to get into the Russian subconscious (i.e., the Orthodox Church practice of displaying the relics of saints). The Lenin Mausoleum had a sledgehammer effect on the psyche of the Russian workers and peasants that worked very positively for the Party.

I really think that one has to look at why comrade Lenin was not buried and placed in the Mausoleum from a perspective of the conditions and mentality of the people of the time.

And, that goes for the present day situation. While one can debate my post, it still does not change the fact that burying comrade Lenin today will be akin to burying Communism.

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

Do you not find this moderately problematic? Revolutions that require religious iconography are no revolution at all. Revolutions require conscious changes in how people act. Its a personal and a social transformation of society. Clearly the use of symbolism to lead the masses is a demonstration of how Leninism failed. The people fell back into old habits of obedience and an authoritarian regime was all but guaranteed.

[Kropotesta]

They should of buried him in the first place, espcially if what RedAnarchist said is true.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I was wonder what the reaction would have been if the Khrushchev regime buried both Stalin and Lenin.

[Bastable]

does Gorbachev have an official position at the moment?

[Jazzratt]

does Gorbachev have an official position at the moment?

I thought he was all up for burying Lenin? In fact his support of it was part of what stoked the whole furore.

Anyway, I think that Lenin's body has become a bit of dead weight around the communists in Russia - they're looking to the glories of the past when they should be working harder for a better future and to that end I think Lenin should finally become just another corpse rather than a gross spectacle

[Bastable]

I thought he was all up for burying Lenin? In fact his support of it was part of what stoked the whole furore.

Anyway, I think that Lenin's body has become a bit of dead weight around the communists in Russia - they're looking to the glories of the past when they should be working harder for a better future and to that end I think Lenin should finally become just another corpse rather than a gross spectacle

My apologies, my wording was too ambiguous.

I meant does Gorbachev have a title, a position of power, is he still a decision maker?

Or is he just a has been who crops up ever now and then to give his unwanted opinion?

[Red October]

My apologies, my wording was too ambiguous.

I meant does Gorbachev have a title, a position of power, is he still a decision maker?

Or is he just a has been who crops up ever now and then to give his unwanted opinion?

He's head of the Gorbachev Foundation

[subham]

What I personally feel that people like Gorbachev are still trembling by the prospect of proletarian revolution & trying to bury Lenin because the latter is not only a name, he is the inspiration of the oppressed masses. Let them be trembled!! The fall of the bourgeoisie and the victory of the proletariat is inevitable!!

[BIG BROTHER]

maybe Lenin should be buried after all, but buried with honors for the accomplishments he made. After even though Gorbachev is doing it for other reasons, Lenin did want to be buried not put into display.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

So what do these guys do besides denouncing Indiana Jones and trying to save a chemical laden corpse?

Yes, I am taking the piss, but really, that seems to be all we hear from the Russian Communist Party and I should hope they're doing things that are, ahem, more worthy of the attention of the working class than this sort of wankery.

Evidently this is the fault of the media you've been reading and not of the Russian Communist Party.

[Dr Mindbender]

maybe Lenin should be buried after all, but buried with honors for the accomplishments he made. After even though Gorbachev is doing it for other reasons, Lenin did want to be buried not put into display.

Do you really think he is likely to get those honours in Russia's current era?

I hope they keep him there if just for selfish reasons as i'd like to see him as i eventually want to go to Russia one day. :D

[Red October]

i'd like to see him as i eventually want to go to Russia one day. :D

You may as well just look at a wax sculpture of him in a museum

[Thíazì]

Since this thread is on the same subject, I am re-posting my message from the Lenin thread in History.

The lack of understanding regarding the significance of this issue appears to stem from the fact that most revleft list members are Americans and have the typical American arrogance and lack of understanding of the importance of cultural symbolism outside of their own narrow experience.

On the one hand, placing comrade Lenin’s body in the Mausoleum and creating a type of deification of him is repulsive and not Marxist-Leninist. But, if you think about it from a different perspective it was an ingenious move.

Comrade Lenin’s untimely death occurred when the Party was in the midst of a life and death struggle to win the hearts and minds of the people of the former Russian Empire. Just because there was a revolution everyone in the country didn’t suddenly become Communists. Few really understood what the Bolshevik Party was trying to accomplish.

How do you educate the population? Well, writing and disseminating books and literature is one way. The Alphabet of Communism/Азбука Коммунизма written in 1919 by Bukharin and Preobrazhenksy was an excellent primer about Communism for the common working man and peasant. I read it in the original Russian many years ago. The only problem was that 80% of the population was illiterate!

Getting into the Russian psyche through symbolism was the fastest and easiest method to win the illiterate worker and peasant over at that particular point in the history of the country. What symbolism was ingrained in the Russian mind for a millennium since the reign of Prince Vladimir? The symbolism of the Russian Orthodox Church!

Communists didn’t just accidentally happen to carry oversize portraits during parades and marches. The Russian mind was conditioned to this type of symbolism by the R.O. Church (the carrying of ikons and church banners) and the people felt comfortable with it. It was used with great effect by the Party.

Comrade Lenin’s open entombment in the Mausoleum on Red Square also was a form of propaganda using the symbolism of the R.O. Church to get into the Russian subconscious (i.e., the Orthodox Church practice of displaying the relics of saints). The Lenin Mausoleum had a sledgehammer effect on the psyche of the Russian workers and peasants that worked very positively for the Party.

I really think that one has to look at why comrade Lenin was not buried and placed in the Mausoleum from a perspective of the conditions and mentality of the people of the time.

And, that goes for the present day situation. While one can debate my post, it still does not change the fact that burying comrade Lenin today will be akin to burying Communism.

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

You've basically deconstructed your entire argument by yourself. Clearly, 80% of Russians aren't illiterate now, so now they don't need these giant posters of people's faces or Lenin's mausoleum. Work on redistributing Азбука Коммунизма rather than arguing over such petty things as where to put Lenin's body and whether Indian Jones defames communists.

[BIG BROTHER]

Do you really think he is likely to get those honours in Russia's current era?

I hope they keep him there if just for selfish reasons as i'd like to see him as i eventually want to go to Russia one day. :D

i was saying they should do something like that. I didn't say is likely to happen.

[3A CCCP]

You've basically deconstructed your entire argument by yourself. Clearly, 80% of Russians aren't illiterate now, so now they don't need these giant posters of people's faces or Lenin's mausoleum. Work on redistributing Азбука Коммунизма rather than arguing over such petty things as where to put Lenin's body and whether Indian Jones defames communists.

Actually, if you knew how to read you would realize that I haven't "deconstructed" anything!

The argument of influencing an illiterate population is presented as the reasoning behind the original construction of the Mausoleum and preserving comrade Lenin's body.

The reason it should remain and comrade Lenin should remain in it was stated in the last sentence of the post: "burying comrade Lenin today would be akin to burying Communism."

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

[Red October]

"burying comrade Lenin today would be akin to burying Communism."

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

Communism in Russia has already been buried by almost 2 decades of reckless and oppressive capitalist reform. What real, tangible damage would burying Lenin do to Communism? If the Russian Communists can't cope with Lenin being buried, I don't see how they can deal with real issues.

[3A CCCP]

Communism in Russia has already been buried by almost 2 decades of reckless and oppressive capitalist reform. What real, tangible damage would burying Lenin do to Communism? If the Russian Communists can't cope with Lenin being buried, I don't see how they can deal with real issues.

As I mentioned in the Lenin poll thread that was "buried" in "Chit-Chat," you just don't get it and, apparently, you never will.

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

[Nosotros]

I don't think I really care what happens to Lenin's corpes but certainly it was not his wish to be preserved and have people pay to see him.

[Thíazì]

Actually, if you knew how to read you would realize that I haven't "deconstructed" anything!

The argument of influencing an illiterate population is presented as the reasoning behind the original construction of the Mausoleum and preserving comrade Lenin's body.

The reason it should remain and comrade Lenin should remain in it was stated in the last sentence of the post: "burying comrade Lenin today would be akin to burying Communism."

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

Yeah, so that's my point exactly. Since the Russian people are now pretty much all literate, you don't need this giant mausoleum dedicated to one person with his body preserved in it in order to symbolise communism. Burying comrade Lenin today is more like burying the notion that communism always brings a concomitant cult of personality and extreme idolatry, as most westerners would tend to think.

[3A CCCP]

[quote=Thíazì;1173304) Burying comrade Lenin today is more like burying the notion that communism always brings a concomitant cult of personality and extreme idolatry, as most westerners would tend to think.[/quote]

To you maybe, but to the West it would symbolize the final burial of Communism.

3A CCCP!
Mikhail

[Louis Pio]

To you maybe, but to the West it would symbolize the final burial of Communism.



The bourgiosie will always try to portray marxism as dead, however they haven't been able to bury it for more than 150 years and they won't be able too either. It's the ideas put into practice that matters.
To me burying Lenin would only signify the end of one of the last visible examples of an absurd cult of personality that went against Lenin's ideas and his own wishes for what to do with his corpse. That anti-marxist cult has been politically dead for more than 50 years, which is why the remnants of it clings to symbols. Unable to to come up with any political answers this is all they have.

[Sentinel]

Topic split -- discussion on the CPRF and homophobia moved into Discrimination. Link (http://www.revleft.com/vb/cprf-homophobia-t81824/index.html?t=81824)

[Red_or_Dead]

Yeah, so that's my point exactly. Since the Russian people are now pretty much all literate, you don't need this giant mausoleum dedicated to one person with his body preserved in it in order to symbolise communism. Burying comrade Lenin today is more like burying the notion that communism always brings a concomitant cult of personality and extreme idolatry, as most westerners would tend to think.

Agreed. Im in favor of burying him, if not for anything else but simply to stop with the personality cultism nonsense.

As far as symbolic victory over communism is concerned... The west and the reactionaries in former socialist states had a lot of not just symbolic, but very real victories over communism in the last 20 years. Burying Lenin wont have nearly as much influence as (for example) tearing down the Berlin wall.

And if I reflect on that as well, we are again seriously abusing the term "communism", as that what happened in the European socialist states was no communism to begin with. So, if we are talking about a symbolic victory for the reactionaries in this case, that symbolic victory is not a victory over communism as such, but over authoritarian socialism. And there is a lot of difference between the two.



To you maybe, but to the West it would symbolize the final burial of Communism.

Maybe, but will the communist ideas, movements and followers be dead as well?