So, why do nazis deny the holocaust?

[BIG BROTHER]

I have always wondered, that if they follow Hitlers ideology, and consider Jews inferior, then why are they ashamed of the holocaust?

I mean according to their ideologies shouldn't they be proud?

[Anarch_Mesa]

I don't necessarily think that they are ashamed, I think part of it may be there image as a group.

[Dimentio]

I have always wondered, that if they follow Hitlers ideology, and consider Jews inferior, then why are they ashamed of the holocaust?

I mean according to their ideologies shouldn't they be proud?

Because ordinary people does not like the Holocaust, and nazis want to become somewhat more respectable amongst ordinary people.

If they are smart, they just attack Moslems instead for Jews, and pretend to uphold liberal rights against shar'iah laws. If they are stupid, they try to bring up Hitler and whitewash him.

[spartan]

Because they dont have more than two brain cells to rub together?

Seriously though its all to do with public perception and there attempt at creating doubts in people and also there (Poor) attempts at historical revisionism.

They fail at all this though when faced with this (Apologies if anyone is offended):
http://isurvived.org/Pictures_iSurvived-4/holocaust-remnants2.GIF

[Psy]

I have always wondered, that if they follow Hitlers ideology, and consider Jews inferior, then why are they ashamed of the holocaust?

I mean according to their ideologies shouldn't they be proud?

Because while they see Jews as inferior they'd rather have the image of Nazi Germany simply enslaving the Jews rather then a policy of genocide. They don't like the whole crazy genocidal anti-semitic image of Nazi Germany and rather paint Nazi Germany simply as a society that enslaved the races they think are damned by God.

[Dean]

Nazis play on racist stereotypes, particularly of "inferior races" as being not just dumber, but more violent, criminal and loathesome. They value arbitrary authoritarian concepts like loyalty, nationality, honor and tradition. It is a common portion of our culture to know of and abhor the holocaust as a foul act, so they don't want to associate with it. They like the image of Hitler as a "jew hunter" (as some scumbag recently described him) but they don't like the image of him as an oppressive dictator who rounded up and slaughtered men, women and children for their religion. This is why many of them focus on contesting the number of deaths, since it is not to them an intrinsically bad phenomenon, but it is atrocious when considering the scope, ideology and background of the holocaust.

[Ghaile]

Fascists love to replace objective study of history with the peddling of conspiracy theories, thus the Jewish media and banking is a good example. You'll find that this fascist tactic has made it's way into America quite covertly in a form of right-wing populism, you'll see people talking about the 'Federal Reserve conspiracy' and all this, these people themselves are highly reactionary but they oppose 'capitalism' is a non-scientific, non-systematic way, making up dark conspiracy theories about the back rooms of Wall Street.

Libertarians love this stuff too.

[Dros]

Some of them don't.

[Sharon den Adel]

I have always wondered, that if they follow Hitlers ideology, and consider Jews inferior, then why are they ashamed of the holocaust?

It's not only Nazi's who deny the Holocaust. There are 'regular' people out there who also disbelieve in it, mainly because they claim there is not enough evidence.

[Psy]

Fascists love to replace objective study of history with the peddling of conspiracy theories, thus the Jewish media and banking is a good example. You'll find that this fascist tactic has made it's way into America quite covertly in a form of right-wing populism, you'll see people talking about the 'Federal Reserve conspiracy' and all this, these people themselves are highly reactionary but they oppose 'capitalism' is a non-scientific, non-systematic way, making up dark conspiracy theories about the back rooms of Wall Street.

Libertarians love this stuff too.
Yhea, there is even some shit about communism being a Jewish capitalist conspiracy to consolidate the bulk of capital into the hands of a few rich Jewish capitalists. That Stalin was really getting marching orders from Jewish bankers in New York City and Hitler was the true enemy of the evil capitalist Jews, there is even a defector from the USSR that claimed to be from the KGB that spewed this fascist garbage that was on right wing talk shows in the 80's.

[spartan]

Yhea, there is even some shit about communism being a Jewish capitalist conspiracy to consolidate the bulk of capital into the hands of a few rich Jewish capitalists. That Stalin was really getting marching orders from Jewish bankers in New York City and Hitler was the true enemy of the evil capitalist Jews, there is even a defector from the USSR that claimed to be from the KGB that spewed this fascist garbage that was on right wing talk shows in the 80's.

Lets not forget the "Trotsky was funded by New York bankers" shit which they use as proof that the Jews were trying to control the world through Communism.

There is also another insane theory amongst some White Nationalists who believe that the Nazis were actually Zionists (The whole Hitler had Jewish ancestors thing apparently) who only commited the Holocaust on the orders of ZOG (Zionist Occupation Government:lol:) so that the Jews would get sympathy from the rest of the world and thus gain power through that sympathy! (I am not making this shit up!)

I think that after the revolution we should keep these people locked up in asylums and let them out every so often for comedic purposes (They could have there own TV show, the ratings would be through the roof!)

[BIG BROTHER]

Nazis play on racist stereotypes, particularly of "inferior races" as being not just dumber, but more violent, criminal and loathesome. They value arbitrary authoritarian concepts like loyalty, nationality, honor and tradition. It is a common portion of our culture to know of and abhor the holocaust as a foul act, so they don't want to associate with it. They like the image of Hitler as a "jew hunter" (as some scumbag recently described him) but they don't like the image of him as an oppressive dictator who rounded up and slaughtered men, women and children for their religion. This is why many of them focus on contesting the number of deaths, since it is not to them an intrinsically bad phenomenon, but it is atrocious when considering the scope, ideology and background of the holocaust.

woa, that's so freaken retarded, stupid nazis

[Ghaile]

Yhea, there is even some shit about communism being a Jewish capitalist conspiracy to consolidate the bulk of capital into the hands of a few rich Jewish capitalists. That Stalin was really getting marching orders from Jewish bankers in New York City and Hitler was the true enemy of the evil capitalist Jews, there is even a defector from the USSR that claimed to be from the KGB that spewed this fascist garbage that was on right wing talk shows in the 80's.
Oh yeah, the 'Judeo-Communist' conspiracy has been for ages ever since Goebbels started peddling it. You'' also often hear neo-Nazi's saying how 'Trotsky murdered 10 million Christians' and all this crap, and they also seem to love that quote by Stalin saying he was a 'russified Asian', lol.

[mikelepore]

I mean according to their ideologies shouldn't they be proud?

Even while they were doing it, they tried to hide it. They said: These people are being put on this train so they can be "deported" ... now, let's proceed with the "deportation" ...

[mikelepore]

Holocaust deniers often claim that such photographs support their claims. Photographs show hundreds of victims. They claim that's the point, that there were hundreds of victims, and the reported number has exaggered to be millions. Then they add: by the way, of that hundreds of people, famine and disease killed most of them. A few convicted criminals were also shot, and in the photographs they are difficult to identify, among the many victims of the famine and disease. Preposterous, I know, but the original poster requested a report on what the holocaust deniers typically say.

[Psy]

woa, that's so freaken retarded, stupid nazis
The US fascists parties/groups are know for being led by total retards, they lost most of their power in the 80's because they brilliant leadership decided to knock over a money shipment. They stupidly thought the FBI was out to get them when the FBI had infiltrated them decades earlier and was letting run around yet when they stole large sums of money from the American bourgeoisie the FBI for the most part crushed the movement that caused it to heavily fracture into tiny isolated groups.

[RoterAnarchie]

Perhaps we should stop automatically calling all revisionists and negationists nazi's...
If we use the word to lightly, it will lose its meaning.

[nvm]

This is what a Holocaust denier, Ernst Zundel , which is imprisoned in Canada says (http://www.zundelsite.org/english/101/101toc.html)

click on the link

Many communists deny the Holocaust also . Like Dr. D. C. Yermak.
He was a Soviet that wrote the book The Axis of Death, reffering to the Vatican , Zionism and Masonry. He had a big part of the book dedicating it to "proving" that the Holocaust did not exist like it is described by Zionists. It was just 600 000 people that died and those died because of hunger because Germany was struck in to poverty by the end of the war. He said that there were no furnaces and gas rooms . The Jews just worked there(unpaid) in order to supply the Germans at the front.
I think he was kind of crazy :lol:

[redSHARP]

[quote=spartan;1164324]Lets not forget the "Trotsky was funded by New York bankers" shit which they use as proof that the Jews were trying to control the world through Communism.

There is also another insane theory amongst some White Nationalists who believe that the Nazis were actually Zionists (The whole Hitler had Jewish ancestors thing apparently) who only commited the Holocaust on the orders of ZOG (Zionist Occupation Government:lol:) so that the Jews would get sympathy from the rest of the world and thus gain power through that sympathy! (I am not making this shit up!)[quote]


you actually are not far off from the truth on that one. the zionist worked with early nazi officials, who did not want to sully the german name with genocide, the gal was for them to get to palestine. the nazis were letting jews out of germany until the 1937, and even helped ship some out of germany. then the nazis decided that they needed to get rid the jews, for good. so an early plan was to ship them to madigascar, but then they said fuck it and started the genocide. the zionists wanted to use the holocaust for PR and the germans wanted the holocaust for...well fill in the blank. i read it in mental floss magazine.

[Wake Up]

It's not only Nazi's who deny the Holocaust. There are 'regular' people out there who also disbelieve in it, mainly because they claim there is not enough evidence.

I've heard this line many times.
I just tell those people to visit Auchwitz, like I have, and see what their views are when they return.

The place is the size of a small airport.....

[black magick hustla]

I think a lot of nazis honestly believe that the holocaust was exaggerated or it is a total lie. I don't think most of them are as organized to agree to proyect an image of an exaggerated holocaust and at the same time, really believe that the holocaust wasn't really exaggerated. Believe it or not, nazis are human and I am sure most of them don't want to see millions of jews put in gas chambers.

[Wake Up]

Believe it or not, nazis are human and I am sure most of them don't want to see millions of jews put in gas chambers.


Who is worse, person A or B?


A. is the Nazi chief. He is your typical aryan bad boy. He believes that jews are inhuman and will stop at nothing to see them wiped out.

B is the nazi grunt. He believes in national socialism but is not a hard-liner. He works as a concentration camp guard and goes home to his loving wife and kids each day. He heart is not in his work but he does it any way.




I believe that they are as bad as each other. While A is 'evil' B has the chance to stop what he is doing but fails to do so. Person A is the piper but person B follows him blindly.

This is why I don't buy the 'following orders theory'.

[Harrycombs]

I disagree Wake Up, there are plenty of people like person B through out history. The soldiers of every army in history were like that. They were told that what they were doing was right, and didn't want to question it. Those who knew it was wrong and hated it would kill out of fear. His friends would probably turn him in if they knew how he felt, because they would want to look good with whoever is in power. They are victims as well.

[Grunt]

This is why I don't buy the 'following orders theory'.
Exactly !

The perpetual "I was just following orders." - excuse doesn't
excuse anything !

Still it is the most popular and unfortunately also most accepted
excuse there is...

Doesn't matter who commited which crimes under which regime -
it is the international standard excuse.

[Harrycombs]

Exactly !

The perpetual "I was just following orders." - excuse doesn't
excuse anything !

Still it is the most popular and unfortunately also most accepted
excuse there is...

Doesn't matter who commited which crimes under which regime -
it is the international standard excuse.

Think of how terrified the soldiers and grunts of these terrible people were. If they showed opposition, they would be killed. What about their families? If they opposed, what would happen to them? They are victims, just like the people they harm.

[Module]

Because from any perspective, pretty much, the mass murder of innocent people cannot be justified in rational argument. Henceforth, the evil Jews made the whole thing up to begin with.

Wake Up, I also disagree.
Anti-antisemitism and racism were a national presense in Germany - people were indoctrinated into Nazism and threatened with death should they oppose it. As pointed out by Harrycombs, these people have existed all throughout history, as those who will go along with a situation as long as they don't end up dead. Sure, it's not the most noble thing to do, but no doubt this German worker just wanted to live - and he had a greater chance of doing that if he just went along with the world around him.
Think of all the things which go on around you that the average person just 'lets happen' because it's simply much, much easier for them. To say that they're just as bad as those who cause that around them is (in my view) simplistic.
Often the personal sacrifice of opposition is far too great for the probable result of that opposition, on an individual level.
I don't agree with it, I'm just saying, look at it from Person B's point of view.

[Cossack]

yeah following orders sucks for those who must, however they do always have a choice they never make which is to reject said orders. Personally I don't think the holocaust is as important as the WWII casualties. 6 million jews or 26 millions soviets? let's see which one is more important?

[nvm]

The place is the size of a small airport.....

That means that the holocaust existed or no?

[Grunt]

Think of how terrified the soldiers and grunts of these terrible people were. If they showed opposition, they would be killed. What about their families? If they opposed, what would happen to them? They are victims, just like the people they harm.
Yes - soldiers and grunts: OK. As long as they were not involved
in massacres of civilians.

But in Auschwitz and the other camps - you didn' get into a lot of
trouble if you asked for a transfer !!!

I think thats important to know !

----


Sidenote:

Now you can ask: What about the crew of the Enola Gay ?

Answer: They had no idea how powerfull the A-Bomb was -
only that it was a new type of bomb and stronger.

But that asshole Truman, he knew !! And he was willing to
continue throwing A-Bombs until Japan surrendered !!

Thats why he is a mass-murderer.

[Module]

yeah following orders sucks for those who must, however they do always have a choice they never make which is to reject said orders. Personally I don't think the holocaust is as important as the WWII casualties. 6 million jews or 26 millions soviets? let's see which one is more important?
In terms of deaths, no, but the real concern was the reason for the Holocaust, which most people now find extremely frightening - they were killed only because they were Jewish. They were rounded up, absolutely defenseless, and killed. WW2 casualities were involved in a war - most of the casualities were armed soldiers, whereas those Jews who died in the Holocaust were just regular, unarmed people.
(And I hope you're not trying to compare the life of a Jew to the life of a Soviet?)

[BIG BROTHER]

well, now that I've seen you guys opinion, how would you respond to people who see us communists, as a Nazi denying lunatic, when we argue against the supposed 100 million people killed by communism

[spartan]

well, now that I've seen you guys opinion, how would you respond to people who see us communists, as a Nazi denying lunatic, when we argue against the supposed 100 million people killed by communism
The smart Communist agrees that 100 million plus people were killed but says that the people doing the killing werent real representatives of Communism:lol:

[Grunt]

WW2 casualities were involved in a war - most of the casualities were armed soldiers...
True for all fronts except the east front. Sovjet Civilian casualties
were extremely high: 11,400,000 civilians.
(Sovjet Military casualties: 10,700,000) (Figures from Wikipedia)

Why were the sovjet civilian casualties so high ? Because the
germans fought a totally different war on the eastern front.
A war of extermination. They considered the sovjet citizens as
"Untermenschen". They burnt down all houses and destroyed
everything - so the people in the sovjet union died of hunger
and cold by the millions !!!!

[Wake Up]

That means that the holocaust existed or no?

if your argument is that only a few hundreds died then a visit to a death camp the size of a small airport should show the holes in that argument.


Back to Person B. It is a difficult situation to be in. Sometimes a person has no choice in what they do, i.e. a soldier ( and I don't believe a soldier should have a choice as otherwise they cannot be good soldiers) The propaganda argument is a strong one, when jews arrived at Auschwitz they did not look human, they were basically living skeletons. If you have been told that you are superior to the inhuman jew then the arrival of these living skeletons would only enforce your views. The mistake that person B made, if person B is not a soldier, is to accept the lies in the first place. Obviously it can be hard to detect the lies, so the guilt of person B varies.
A good example of person B would be an Oscar Schindler, before he started to help the jews that is. Someone who has the chance to help out but doesn't is person B.


The holocaust was not just jews it was slavs, roma, gypsies, soviet POW's, activists, ethnic poles, homosexuals, jehovas witnesses and freemasons. This includes up to 3 million soviet POW's and 2.5 million poles.

Deniers rarely mention the other victims of the holocaust which would suggest that they harbour basic anti-Semitic views.

[Psy]

if your argument is that only a few hundreds died then a visit to a death camp the size of a small airport should show the holes in that argument.

Back to Person B. It is a difficult situation to be in. Sometimes a person has no choice in what they do, i.e. a soldier ( and I don't believe a soldier should have a choice as otherwise they cannot be good soldiers)

If not for the mutiny of soilders there would have been no Russian revolution. If German troops mutinied against Hitler like Russian troops against the Tzar then not only could the holocaust been avoided by Germany could have had a workers revolution.



The propaganda argument is a strong one, when jews arrived at Auschwitz they did not look human, they were basically living skeletons. If you have been told that you are superior to the inhuman jew then the arrival of these living skeletons would only enforce your views. The mistake that person B made, if person B is not a soldier, is to accept the lies in the first place. Obviously it can be hard to detect the lies, so the guilt of person B varies.
A good example of person B would be an Oscar Schindler, before he started to help the jews that is. Someone who has the chance to help out but doesn't is person B.

That would include soilders as they have guns and killing officers is actually a very act for soilders, Vietnam showed a single soilders can very easily kill officers once soilders put their mind to it.

Mostly soilders and others go along with atrocities become it is the path of least resistance, killing weak unarmed prisoners was easier for German regulars then taking on the Schutzstaffel (SS) that unlike the regulars in the German army were totally dedicated to the cause of fascism.

[RoterAnarchie]

I've heard this line many times.
I just tell those people to visit Auchwitz, like I have, and see what their views are when they return.

The place is the size of a small airport.....

You do know that Auschwitz was completely destroyed at the end of the war and rebuild by those who survived (or atleast claim that)

I also don't understand why the nazi's went trough all the trouble of building large camps, handing out uniforms, giving food and medical attention if they were only there to be killed
Wouldn't it have been easier to immediatly put them in the oven after they excited the train?

I'm no antisemite, nazi of negationist; but I do know what the Zionists are doing the Israel is just WRONG.
It also happen to be Jews responsible for the wars in the middle east.
+ they are the most imperialistic racist kapitalists out there!

I don't see a place for religion in my anarchistic worldideal anyway...

[Wake Up]

You do know that Auschwitz was completely destroyed at the end of the war and rebuild by those who survived (or atleast claim that)

I also don't understand why the nazi's went trough all the trouble of building large camps, handing out uniforms, giving food and medical attention if they were only there to be killed
Wouldn't it have been easier to immediatly put them in the oven after they excited the train?

I'm no antisemite, nazi of negationist; but I do know what the Zionists are doing the Israel is just WRONG.
It also happen to be Jews responsible for the wars in the middle east.
+ they are the most imperialistic racist kapitalists out there!

I don't see a place for religion in my anarchistic worldideal anyway...

Firstly Auschwitz contains 2 camps.
Auschwitz 1 is a labour camp is in its original state. You can visit their and go into sites including an original gas chamber and a 'prison within a prison' with starvation cells, standing cells and an execution wall. You can visit this site as it was under the control of the nazis.
Auschwitz 2 or Birkenau is the death camp. The nazis blew up the gas chambers when the Russians were in touching distance. The huts, train track and gates are still their. You should visit there, Auschwitz 1 has a museum and you can walk around the Birkenau site and enter the original huts.

As for your point about, why give them medical attention, clothes etc etc, you must remember the Nazi/German love of organization. These people were fanatical about keeping everything in ordered records. Besides the organization is all part of the dehumanization process. In giving the prisoners a number you take away his identity. Medical attention was in the form of experiments. Some jews were given the role of sonderkommando, which involved working in the gas chambers and crematorium and were given slightly better living conditions before they were killed a few weeks later. If any medical attention or decent treatment was given it was to the sonderkommando.

As well as been fanatical organizers the nazis were scared of the repercussions. When the war began to turn the nazis looked too ways of covering up their crimes. Part of this covering up process involved making the death camps look like only concentration camps. So the nazis would have model camps and ghettos. Thier was a model ghetto in Czech republic at a place called Theresienstadt. The red cross were invited to see that the jewish mistreatment stopped at ghettoization and that their was "nothing to see here". The jews at Theresienstadt were then shipped out to Auschwitz like at any other ghetto.

The reason the holocaust is so prominent in our minds is because it was a genocide resembling a factory process. In order to eradicate the jews the nazis chose to do it in an industrialized manner leaving no survivers. Every minute detail is highly organized.

[Harrycombs]

well, now that I've seen you guys opinion, how would you respond to people who see us communists, as a Nazi denying lunatic, when we argue against the supposed 100 million people killed by communism


I was thinking about this. I was arguing that Stalin wasn't as bad as most of them thought he was, and everyone thought I was insane. I lost most of my credibility there:(

But there is definitive evidence that the holocaust happened, and there isn't for that number for 100 million being killed. But from my experience, people will continue to believe what they were brought up believing in.:(

[Chapter 24]

I would say that as Nazis are antisemitic their motives in denying the Holocaust are relative to their said antisemitism. As they group all Jews into being Zionists, which certainly is not true, they provide the argument that Jews inflate the death numbers or even "make up" the Holocaust as a whole to their advantage - thus guilting the U.N. in providing them with land in Palestine to create Israel as a haven for Jews, and then use Israeli policy as Jewish policy in order to make them look like monsters.

[The Intransigent Faction]

"The real purpose of holocaust revisionism is to make National Socialism an acceptable political alternative again."-Harold Covington; "National Socialist White People's Party" (July 24th, 1996).

..So yes, essentially what's been said already by at least a few others is correct. Just like the use of the term "white nationalist" in place of "white supremacist", it's an euphemistic way of trying to dupe people into believing that this bigotry enjoys mainstream support..and of trying to rehabilitate an awful ideology in the public eye through demonization of "non-Whites" and downplaying of the scale of the Holocaust.

[The Intransigent Faction]

"The real purpose of holocaust revisionism is to make National Socialism an acceptable political alternative again."-Harold Covington; "National Socialist White People's Party" (July 24th, 1996).

..So yes, essentially what's been said already by at least a few others is correct. Just like the use of the term "white nationalist" in place of "white supremacist", it's an euphemistic way of trying to dupe people into believing that this bigotry enjoys mainstream support..and of trying to rehabilitate an awful ideology in the public eye through demonization of "non-Whites" and downplaying of the scale of the Holocaust.
Personally I strongly disapprove of Zionism, but that's a far cry from believing that the Jewish people somehow orchestrated the Holocaust as a "myth" to gain support.
1. A large percentage, about 40% last i checked, of Holocaust survivors are now living in poverty.
2. There's no evidence to suggest that Zionists collaborated with the Nazis.

[BIG BROTHER]

Well brad, and everyone, I think I'm satisfied with the answers. Thanks.

[Revolutiondownunder]

But there is definitive evidence that the holocaust happened, and there isn't for that number for 100 million being killed. But from my experience, people will continue to believe what they were brought up believing in


If not 100,000,000 it was still a lot.

The "left" [very broadly speaking] has done some horrific things, not on par with the gas chambers, but pretty bad.

The difference is the "left" was fighting for a better world without exploitation. The nazis were killing for the sake of killing.

[redSHARP]

you know what is really fucked up? in rwanda, their rate of killing of the tutsis was higher than the nazis killing rate during the holocaust. when people say "never again" i cant help to cry inside (well not really).

[RoterAnarchie]

you know what is really fucked up? in rwanda, their rate of killing of the tutsis was higher than the nazis killing rate during the holocaust. when people say "never again" i cant help to cry inside (well not really).

excactly!!
why does the mass only care for the jews while all over the world genocides are taking place?
Every decent state is obligated to interfere where a genocide is taking place
but they mostly conveniently walk around it if there isn't oil or so to grab by calling it 'a humanitairian crisis' (I get international law from a rightwingzionist jew by the way...)

[Wake Up]

excactly!!
why does the mass only care for the jews while all over the world genocides are taking place?
Every decent state is obligated to interfere where a genocide is taking place
but they mostly conveniently walk around it if there isn't oil or so to grab by calling it 'a humanitairian crisis' (I get international law from a rightwingzionist jew by the way...)

Because as I mentioned before, the holocaust was a genocide modeled on factory production.

Of course you have to factor in Zionism, Oil etc etc.

[Thíazì]

True for all fronts except the east front. Sovjet Civilian casualties
were extremely high: 11,400,000 civilians.
(Sovjet Military casualties: 10,700,000) (Figures from Wikipedia)

Why were the sovjet civilian casualties so high ? Because the
germans fought a totally different war on the eastern front.
A war of extermination. They considered the sovjet citizens as
"Untermenschen". They burnt down all houses and destroyed
everything - so the people in the sovjet union died of hunger
and cold by the millions !!!!

I've never heard of this "war of extermination" stuff. What it seems the Nazis were doing was fighting "total war", that is, bringing the war to the civilian population and forcing their enemy into submission. Sherman, the Union General, did the same thing during the American Civil War. I wouldn't try to compare the Nazis' killing of Soviet soldiers to the Nazis' killing of millions of innocent, unarmed citizens. It seems just to be Nazi strategy when it came to the battle on the eastern front, whereas their genocide of the Jews was more distinctly bent upon extermination of that ethnicity and religion.

[spartan]

I've never heard of this "war of extermination" stuff. What it seems the Nazis were doing was fighting "total war", that is, bringing the war to the civilian population and forcing their enemy into submission. Sherman, the Union General, did the same thing during the American Civil War. I wouldn't try to compare the Nazis' killing of Soviet soldiers to the Nazis' killing of millions of innocent, unarmed citizens. It seems just to be Nazi strategy when it came to the battle on the eastern front, whereas their genocide of the Jews was more distinctly bent upon extermination of that ethnicity and religion.
Hitler regarded the Slavs (Who made up the majority of the USSR's population) as inferior to Germans and dictated that 2 thirds of them should be killed whilst a third should be kept alive as slaves for their new German overlords who would use the newly conquered territory of the USSR as a vast farming territory to feed the German's back in the fatherland.

Now when you add to that the fact that these "inferior" Slavs were living in a Communist state (Also a big no no for the Nazis) you can see why someone would call Germany's war against the USSR a "war of extermination" especially when 20 million Soviet civilians ended up dying as a result of Hitler's invasion.

[Sharon den Adel]

I've heard this line many times.
I just tell those people to visit Auchwitz, like I have, and see what their views are when they return.

The place is the size of a small airport.....

Which makes it so hard to imagine the horrors that occured there, in a place so small.:(

[Grunt]

Hitler regarded the Slavs (Who made up the majority of the USSR's population) as inferior to Germans and dictated that 2 thirds of them should be killed whilst a third should be kept alive as slaves for their new German overlords who would use the newly conquered territory of the USSR as a vast farming territory to feed the German's back in the fatherland.

Now when you add to that the fact that these "inferior" Slavs were living in a Communist state (Also a big no no for the Nazis) you can see why someone would call Germany's war against the USSR a "war of extermination" especially when 20 million Soviet civilians ended up dying as a result of Hitler's invasion.
Exactly! Thats what I meant. Hitler was obsessed with conquering
"Lebensraum" - and since all the nations in the west were already
crowded - he focused on the USSR.

And the slavs, as you said, were considered 'inferior' and called
'Untermenschen' !! So: War of extermination.

As much as I agree with you - where did you get the figure
20 million civilian casualties in the USSR from, if I may be so
bold to ask ?

I thought the consensus amongst historians was 10 million...

Anyway: The USSR suffered most of all the allies - and still:
When VE-day is celebrated: England, The US and France
coveniently forget that...

...and that is an outrage !

[RoterAnarchie]

Slavs weren't Untermenschen

Geesh, how can we fight the nazi's if most don't know shit about it!

[Grunt]

Slavs weren't Untermenschen
Of course they weren't ! But in Nazi Propaganda they were
portrayed as 'Untermenschen' and 'hardly better than Jews'.

Now you really want to tell me - that I am wrong there ?? :confused:



Geesh, how can we fight the nazi's if most don't know shit about it!
With all due respect. (Even) I have read a couple of books and know
what I need to know about Nazi scum and their so called
'Program' or 'Philosophy'.

So: If I am wrong: Do the constructive thing - tell me where
I am wrong and what is right in your oppinion !

[communard resolution]

Slavs weren't Untermenschen

Geesh, how can we fight the nazi's if most don't know shit about it!

Slavs were very much considered Untermenschen and inferior to Germanic peoples. Hitler planned to enslave the Slavic peoples and bring up their offspring in the belief that the noblest duty in their lives was to serve their German masters. Check Mein Kampf to confirm.
For some weird (stragegic?) reason, Hitler didn't extend this belief to Southern Slavs such as Croats and Bulgarians, some of whom fought on Nazi Germany's side.

I believe Hitler didn't regard Jews as 'Untermenschen' (inferior humans) at all. On the contrary, he thought of them as intelligent people who were however 'parasitic' and enemies of the German nation. In his view, they needed to be destroyed precisely because they were so able, sophisticated and therefore dangerous.

Most neo-nazis have rejected the original Germanic chauvinist position in favour of a 'pan-Aryan' one that groups Slavs as well as all other 'white' peoples as part of the 'master race'. That's why Russian and Polish imbeciles now also wave the swastika flag when terrorizing and murdering ethnic, sexual, religious, and political minorities.

[communard resolution]

I disagree Wake Up, there are plenty of people like person B through out history. The soldiers of every army in history were like that. They were told that what they were doing was right, and didn't want to question it. Those who knew it was wrong and hated it would kill out of fear. His friends would probably turn him in if they knew how he felt, because they would want to look good with whoever is in power. They are victims as well.

Former concentration camp guards often claimed after WW2 that they feared they would be exectued if disobeying orders. There is however not a single documented case in which an SS Totenkopfverbaende member was sentenced to death for refusing to carry out his grim 'duty' for one reason or another. Camp guards who saw themselves incapable of participating in genocide were simply sent off to military service on the front like everybody else - the term for that was 'human weakness'.

[Grunt]

Former concentration camp guards often claimed after WW2 that they feared they would be exectued if disobeying orders. There is however not a single documented case in which an SS Totenkopfverbaende member was sentenced to death for refusing to carry out his grim 'duty' for one reason or another. Camp guards who saw themselves incapable of participating in genocide were simply sent off to military service on the front like everybody else - the term for that was 'human weakness'.
Exactly ! This is absolutely true ! They simply could have asked for
a transfer - nothing would have happened to them.

So the 'I was just following orders' excuse, excuses nothing at all.

[Grunt]

That's why Russian and Polish imbeciles now
also wave the swastika flag when terrorizing and murdering ethnic, sexual,
religious, and political minorities.
Yeah - its sad, really sad. Fascism is on the rise comrades !!

Just take a look at their big web-board (you know which one I mean -
I wont mention its name here...) and look how many members they
have.

At first I couldn't believe my eyes, really !

[Holden Caulfield]

Most neo-nazis have rejected the original Germanic chauvinist position in favour of a 'pan-Aryan' one that groups Slavs as well as all other 'white' peoples as part of the 'master race'. That's why Russian and Polish imbeciles now also wave the swastika flag when terrorizing and murdering ethnic, sexual, religious, and political minorities.


see stormfront for endless posts of 'who is white', 'what is aryan', 'who should i hate' and 'everybody who isnt my relation and fuck buddy is a jewnigger'

Polish fascism seems one of the worst for me as the Polish nation has suffered so much under fascism just look at what happened to Warsaw, is these insurgant fascism perhaps a response to anti-"communist" (Russian/Stalinist) feeling?

[Wake Up]

Polish fascism seems one of the worst for me as the Polish nation has suffered so much under fascism just look at what happened to Warsaw, is these insurgant fascism perhaps a response to anti-"communist" (Russian/Stalinist) feeling?

This may be true. however history tells us that extreme times lead to extreme beliefs. Poland is not a rich country and seeing as many will have been disillusioned by communism under the soviets they may be inclined to try their hand at the other end of the political spectrum.

[communard resolution]

Polish fascism seems one of the worst for me as the Polish nation has suffered so much under fascism just look at what happened to Warsaw, is these insurgant fascism perhaps a response to anti-"communist" (Russian/Stalinist) feeling?

In Poland, the Catholic church has always been very strong, and Catholicism has always been antisemitic. Check the autobiographic parts of Hitler's Mein Kampf to find out how the 'Christian Social Movement' he encountered in Vienna introduced him to antismitic ideas for the first time in his life, long before he got into all the Nordic/Aryan/Thule stuff.
On top of that, Poland's pseudo-communist regime had strong antisemitic currents and kept confirming the Poles' traditional Catholic prejudices for 40 years.

Cutthroat capitalism that drives the masses into poverty (as is the case in Poland and many other ex Warsaw Pact countries now) is always a good breading ground for fascism. Add to that the fact that 99% of Poland's population is white, Catholic, and ethnically Polish. I think that very homogenous societies tend to be the most receptive to fascist and racist ideas. To my humble observations, the more different ethnicities mix, the less racism there is.

[Grunt]

Cutthroat capitalism that drives the masses
into poverty (as is the case in Poland and many other ex Warsaw Pact
countries now) is always a good breading ground for fascism. Add to that
the fact that 99% of Poland's population is white, Catholic, and ethnically Polish. I think that very homogenous societies tend to be the most receptive to fascist and racist ideas. To my humble observations, the more different ethnicities mix, the less racism there is.
I wonder: Why is cutthroat capitalism that drives the masses into
poverty not a good breading ground for socialism ??

[communard resolution]

I wonder: Why is cutthroat capitalism that drives the masses into
poverty not a good breading ground for socialism ??

It really should be, why people often favour fascism is a difficult question indeed. Here are some ideas:

1) Fascism appeals to emotions, socialism to rational thought. Emotions tend to be stronger than thought, and people are often too lazy to think.

2) Socialism often requires to part with tradition while fascism upholds tradition. I imagine that people who have been driven into poverty often feel that tradition and their "national identity" is all they've got left.

3) Fascism appeals to people's egoism. It says: you shall have the power because you are ... [insert nationality], white, and male.

4) In times of crisis, the bourgeoisie tends to support fascism as a last resort to save itself. They have the power, means, and propaganda apparatus to condition the people into accepting fascist ideas.

EDIT: In Poland's case, one should obviously not forget the Polish experience with 'communism', which wasn't a good one. So I partly agree with an earlier poster who suggested that.

[Grunt]

1) Fascism appeals to emotions, socialism to rational thought. Emotions tend to be stronger than thought, and people are often too lazy to think.

2) Socialism often requires to part with tradition while fascism upholds tradition. I imagine that people who have been driven into poverty often feel that tradition and their "national identity" is all they've got left.

3) Fascism appeals to people's egoism. It says: you shall have the power because you are ... [insert nationality], white, and male.

4) In times of crisis, the bourgeoisie tends to support fascism as a last resort to save itself. They have the power, means, and propaganda apparatus to condition the people into accepting fascist ideas.

Thanks comrade Caligula ! You are very wise, if I may say so.
All the 4 points make sense to me - its true for example:
Fascism appeals to emotions - and not to own thinking. So of
course people prefer 'Non-thinking'....:(

This is all very bad ! :(

What can we do to prevent that the fascist movement (which
definitely is on the rise) gains even mor momentum ?

(OK - there is always my way - fighting them on the streets -
but how to convince the majority of fascists, the ones who
do not fight ?)

[communard resolution]

What can we do to prevent that the fascist movement (which
definitely is on the rise) gains even mor momentum ?If it takes a voice then shout the truth
If it takes a hand then hold them back
If it takes a fist then strike them down

Don't remember where this quote is from, but I think it's a rather good one. Depending on the situation, you will have to use various means.

I also think it would be a good thing to introduce people to socialist and anti-fascist ideas in popular form. I always wondered, for exapmle, why there is no tabloid newspaper that offers both enternainment and news in an easy-to-read, popular format yet written from a socialist perspective (without necessarily spelling it out). Our enemies are very good at that: a newspaper like The Sun doesn't say "pro-capitalist, rightwing, nationalist, xenophobic, homophobic newspaper for Britain" on its front page, even though that's exactly what it is. Why can't we do the same? Call it "The Day" or something like that and offer people a different perspective on things without being overtly dry or didactic.


OK - there is always my way - fighting them on the streets -I think fighting them in the streets is very important because to rule the streets is one of their prime goals. The Russian Federation, for example, is not a fascist state in name, but given how the scum rule the streets with violence and make them unlivable for minorities, it might as well be. In such cases, one has to systematically fight them by militant means to reclaim the space they occupy.


but how to convince the majority of fascists, the ones who
do not fight ?I honestly don't know. Anyone else got an idea?

[Grunt]

If it takes a voice then shout the truth
If it takes a hand then hold them back
If it takes a fist then strike them down
OK ! I got ya. Good quote. Holding down and strike is the
only thing I can do at the moment...:(



I also think it would be a good thing to introduce people to socialist and anti-fascist ideas in popular form. I always wondered, for exapmle, why there is no tabloid newspaper that offers both enternainment and news in an easy-to-read, popular format yet written from a socialist perspective (without necessarily spelling it out). Our enemies are very good at that: a newspaper like The Sun doesn't say "pro-capitalist, rightwing, nationalist, xenophobic, homophobic newspaper for Britain" on its front page, even though that's exactly what it is. Why can't we do the same? Call it "The Day" or something like that and offer people a different perspective on things without being overtly dry or didactic.
Yeah - thats a brilliant idea !!! Why are all the tabloids (here in
Sweden too) pro-capitalist, rightwing, 'patriotic' and racist ?

A left wing tabloid, which is funny and entertaining and has lots
of pictures and stuff - that would be soooo great. It should have
different sections and explain everything very simple and not
dry and scholarly like the books.

Hell - even the 2 weekly socialist/communist weekly's I subscribe to -
are boring, dull, dry - and exclusively deal with the symptoms and
not the cause....:(

As I always say: There is one crucial reason why Socialism/Marxism/
Communism etc. don't appeal to the masses:

They find it too theoretical, dull, hard to read and boring.


As I always say: 'Don't take the fun out of the revolution and
away from socialism.'

I have reached the phase were I can read seriously litterature
written by dead men who had long beards and wrote many
difficult books.

But when I look at our 'crew' - there are very few who are
interested, they are in it for the fun.



I think fighting them in the streets is very important because to rule the streets is one of their prime goals. The Russian Federation, for example, is not a fascist state in name, but given how the scum rule the streets with violence and make them unlivable for minorities, it might as well be. In such cases, one has to systematically fight them by militant means to reclaim the space they occupy.
Thanks for saying so comrade. That was great of you to give me
(and the 'crew') some reassurance.

I read in todays newspaper that the fascist party (SD) has now, in
the polls reached the 4% minimum here - so I reckon they are
coming into parlament at the next election...:(

We have fought the SD-Scum many times and prevented and
disturbed their meetings and events.

And we will continue the fight. Even though comrades here on
the board seem to think we are only a gang of hooligans... :(



I honestly don't know. Anyone else got an idea?
Yeah - its difficult. Those are not fighting in the streets -
and I have a creepy feeling that those are much more
dangerous than the streetfighting Nazi-Scum... :(