Welfare State

[LetThemLive]

Hi everyone this is my first post on Revleft.

I was just wondering what people's opinions of the increasing measures used to sustain the basic survival of people in many 'developed' countries. And also whether or not these tools such as the jobseekers allowance and such are slowing the need for people to rise and creating apathy in the proletariat?

[gla22]

I think the current welfare and programs for the poor alleviate the condition of the proletariat to an extent but don't fix the problem which is the system itself.

[Grunt]

First of all: Welcome ! :)


And also whether or not these tools such as the jobseekers allowance and such are slowing the need for people to rise and creating apathy in the proletariat?
Thats quite a good point IMO. I have to think more about this. But I
am also convinced that organized, theist religion plays a part in
'calming down' the proletariat.

[Grunt]

I think the current welfare and programs for the poor alleviate the condition of the proletariat to an extent but don't fix the problem which is the system itself.
You are right: They don't fix the problem at all. The problem is a
'philosophy' based on Greed and its called capitalism.

Even the 'godfather' of capitalism, Adam Smith realized that greed
and envy are the fuel on which the capitalist, exploiting system 'is
running'

From Wiki:

...Smith believed that while human motives are often
selfishness and greed, the competition in the free market would tend to
benefit society as a whole by keeping prices low, while still building in an
incentive for a wide variety of goods and services.

---

I agree that the capitalist-based gouvernments alleviate the
conditions of the exploited just and only to the level that
keeps the proletariat from thinking (because they have no time)
and much less realizing that a real change is possible.

But that alone would not be enough. Organized theist religion does
the job of keeping the exploited calm and subdued very well. :(

So: While there in reality is no hope for the exploited within
the capitalist system, religion gives them (false) hope for a
later reward.

[Kami]

And also whether or not these tools such as the jobseekers allowance and such are slowing the need for people to rise and creating apathy in the proletariat?

If JSA removes motivation, you know what? I don't give a damn. It gives a little income to those who otherwise have nothing, and that is invaluable.
It may well be an attempt to plecate the poor; but I'm damn certain the poor would prefer being placated than hung out to dry.

[LetThemLive]

If JSA removes motivation, you know what? I don't give a damn. It gives a little income to those who otherwise have nothing, and that is invaluable.
It may well be an attempt to plecate the poor; but I'm damn certain the poor would prefer being placated than hung out to dry.

Hey, Kami I agree, I did put my post in learning, I wanted to know peoples opinions not just give my own to have it validated. Its just that from reading a lot of posts on here i got the impression that thr vast majority would support something detrimental to the poor in the short term to support the long term goal of a communist society.

[rednordman]

Totally agree with Kami on this one. I have been on JSA myself and all i can say is that it is absolutly essential and contrary to the publics estranged opinion, totally f all (around £45 a week). i'd use £25 of it on extortionately priced transport (the bus as i didnt have a car) to get to interviews etc. All i will say on my experience is that it is amazing how unsympathetic the public is on the issue. Its as if everyone believes that there are millions of jobs avaliable, and the sole reason you are claiming JSA is because you are lazy and dont want one, as JSA payment is so good:rolleyes:. Sure it would definitly push a resistance within the working class if they stop it, but to be frank, jobs would become even more insecure and scarce (Just wait and see what happens if the conservatives take power..) and people could starve as they could not afford to feed themselves approprietly. Thus there would be a huge increase in crime.

[The Intransigent Faction]

Welfare is just a bourgeois government's way of appeasing the proleteriat who are not yet full class-conscious.
Essentially welfare in a Capitalist state is a bourgeois handout. I've even heard bourgeois politicians hypocritically say "You can't just throw money at your problems".
Welfare provides barely enough for the basics and thus still leaves workers in deplorable conditions. additionally, it does nothing to address the fact that the bourgeoisie still owns the means of production.
It is certainly a bourgeois myth, though, that everyone on welfare is lazy and/or a druggie. There are extenuating material circumstances for why the vast majority is poorer than 2% of the global population, for one. As for drugs..well, Capitalism hardly solves the issue of people being willing to knowingly sell harmful products for an untold amount of profit. That and how many wealthy celebrities have been involved in some sort of drug?
EDIT: Oh, and welcome to RevLeft.

[DancingLarry]

A classic work that explores this specific question in some depth is syndicalist George Sorel's Reflections on Violence.

[Grunt]

Welfare is just a bourgeois government's way of appeasing the proleteriat who are not yet full class-conscious.
Essentially welfare in a Capitalist state is a bourgeois handout.
...
Welfare provides barely enough for the basics and thus still leaves workers in deplorable conditions. additionally, it does nothing to address the fact that the bourgeoisie still owns the means of production.
I agree !