Homosexuals and Femineity?

[Coggeh]

I was having this argument with my friend , he said that he read in a book and that its science that homosexuals are born with more estrogen ? or something in their bodies than hetero's and thats the reason a proportion of them may talk like their women or act that way ?

I find that idea kind of stupid , what do others think ?

[RedAnarchist]

The idea that male homosexuals are more feminine is mostly based on crude stereotypes and the continuing presence of gender roles in society. The same goes for lesbian women - they do not have more testosterone in them than other women. There may be some homosexuals who have characteristics that are more associated with the opposite sex, but the same is also true for some bisexuals and some heterosexuals.

[Coggeh]

Ya i said the same but he was like "its fucking scientific proof and what not "

But just a min ago I found this "Two studies actually reported higher levels of testosterone in homosexual men than in heterosexual men, and one unhelpfully showed the levels to be higher in bisexuals than in either heterosexuals or homosexuals."
Link :
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/199706/homosexuality-biology/3
So ya , he got it from some stupid gender divisive book "women are from Venus men from mars " type ones .

[Demogorgon]

Your friends argument is bunk, but it is true that gay men are proportionally more likely to be feminine than other men. Something like 40% of gay men are what could be described as feminine, compared to around 10% of heterosexual men.

The reason for this seams to be that while in the womb al foetuses start out essentially female, and then if they are supposed to turn male, testosterone flushes do so. In the case of gay men, the part of the brain dealing with sexual attraction does not receive the standard change for whatever reason and I guess if that part hasn't received the full change there is a higher probability that the rest of the brain won't get so heavy a testosterone flush either.

The above is not fully established yet of course, but there seems to be plenty of research indicating it is correct.

Of course it does somewhat shoot down the view that gay men are naturally effeminate. While a higher proportion are, the majority are still masculine in character.

[Vanguardian]

I was having this argument with my friend , he said that he read in a book and that its science that homosexuals are born with more estrogen ? or something in their bodies than hetero's and thats the reason a proportion of them may talk like their women or act that way ?

I find that idea kind of stupid , what do others think ?

It is very stupid idea. Artificial estrogene and testosterone is prevalent in capitalist society, creating genetic diseases. If you are homosexualist, you do not need to consume more testosterone to become hetero.

All you need to do is to identify and eliminate conditions that make you suffer from your malaise.

Yours truely
Davyd Martynovich Smertin
KGB Officer
First Librarian
RUSS-L

[communard resolution]

That 'more estrogen' claim is utter nonsense. There are gay men who are extremely effeminate, there are gay men who are extremely masculine/butch, and everything in between too. In mainstream media, they tend to highlight effeminate homosexuals in order to associate homosexuality with 'weakness' or clownishness.

As for gay men who act in a camp/effeminate way, that's a cultural thing that has a history to it. When homosexuality was illegal, gay men used mannerisms and speech patterns popularly associated with aristocracy as a code to recognize each other in public. Later it developed a dynamic of its own, and today many 'scene gays' still adopt these mannerisms while oblivious to where it all came from. It's a social thing that has nothing to do with hormones, genes, etc.

There's an article on this somewhere on the web, I'll try and find it.

[Pirate Utopian]

If you are homosexualist, you do not need to consume more testosterone to become hetero.

All you need to do is to identify and eliminate conditions that make you suffer from your malaise.
Malaise?:rolleyes: why is homosexuality a malaise?

[TC]

I don't know about the 40%/10% claim...I would think that its probably closer to 20%/.01%. The great majority of gay men aren't especially feminine, but the overwhelming majority of very feminine men are gay (not as in, doesn't like sports, but as in, girly girl types who are more feminine than the average heterosexual woman in interests and manner).

And of course thats a stereotype but I don't think the relatively large minority of gay men who have a girly girl behavioral presentation are just doing it because they saw it on tv, it had to come from somewhere.

As I'm sure i've pointed out before here, one of the basic methodological errors that people make in social sciences is assuming that the social categories (ie. gay straight bi) have an organic basis. What if there were at least two organic mechanisms for people fitting into the social category of 'gay'; say hypothetically both below average and above average levels of testosterone made male fetuses 'gay,' and the second was the more common mechanism; or even conversely, if girl girl behavioral types (and I'm going to use 'girly girl' not as an insult but just because I think we know what that refers to in women whereas 'feminine' is vague) were actually produced by higher levels of testosterone than average and someone who is both gay and has a higher level of testosterone is going to be able to fit into that cultural stereotype (girly girl personalities are definitely assertive, confident, a little aggressive socially, etc). Its hard to say without research that decouples traits from social label.



Also, it seems in a way funny to focus on gay men rather than lesbians because really...in my totally unscientific impression of the gay people I know (yes, thats horrible, crucify me or whatever) it seems like while most gay men aren't especially feminine, most lesbians are actually appreciably masculine in self presentation (when compared to most straight women). This might be just because straight women's gender presentation is itself such a performance for straight men and each other (where they unconciously determine social standing in part by sexual eligibility) but a distinctly non-feminine social presentation seems to be overwhelming among lesbians (in real life, as opposed to television). Does anyone remember that lesbian finger length thing?

[Vanguardian]

Malaise?:rolleyes: why is homosexuality a malaise?

Engagement in sexual lusts is per definition malaise, if intention is not procreation. We Vanguardians are completely abstinent.


...

Our Glorious Leader told me about you. He is great admirer of your work, although you have been debating before quite harshly on another internet forum.

Yours truely
Davyd Martynovich Smertin
KGB Officer
First Librarian
RUSS-L

[Revolutiondownunder]

The idea that male homosexuals are more feminine is mostly based on crude stereotypes


True, most of the gay blokes I have met wouldnt strike you as gay unless you asked.

Its gender stereotypes colouring popular opinion. Again:(

[communard resolution]

I think it depends what particular gay culture or subculture they are involved in. Many 'scene gays' adopt the camp/effeminate patterns while others would perceive most heterosexual men as wimps. This is not to say one is better or worse than the other.

It's not like homosexual cultures are entirely free of, um, 'gender expectation sexism' (for lack of a better term) either. Some butch homosexuals hate effeminate men with a passion.

[Coggeh]

Engagement in sexual lusts is per definition malaise, if intention is not procreation. We Vanguardians are completely abstinent.



Our Glorious Leader told me about you. He is great admirer of your work, although you have been debating before quite harshly on another internet forum.

Yours truely
Davyd Martynovich Smertin
KGB Officer
First Librarian
RUSS-L

:confused:

[Patchd]

There may be some homosexuals who have characteristics that are more associated with the opposite sex.
Sometimes I can't help but think that those who are "camp" and are out-gay, act that way because they believe that "camp" = gay.

I've got a few mates who I knew before they came out, and once they came out, they started to act much more "camp". Society's homophobia and classification of minorities into stereotypes is what I believe is the cause of it for most "camp" guys.


It's not like homosexual cultures are entirely free of, um, 'gender expectation sexism' (for lack of a better term) either. Some butch homosexuals hate effeminate men with a passion.I can vouch for this. I work in one of the oldest gay pubs in London, and you get such a variety of groups that go in there. On the one hand you get effeminate men, then the butch men, then the normal looking working class (lives in the council estate round the corner) type, millionaires, all sorts, and although most people get on with one another, you do feel a sense of tension between some groups or individuals and another because of the way they act.

[Neutrino]

This is true, essentially. The biological intricacies regarding how gay male brains are wired vis-a-vis their straight counterparts is a bit uncertain, but, as has been already brought up, relates to the chemicals the body is exposed to in the womb. Now, it is pretty much completely clear that homosexuality has a biological basis; the notion that it's environmental is thoroughly discredited. So, if you believe that homosexuality is biologically determined, then why would its causes after only sexual orientation? It affects your sexuality, and by extension your sociality--both fundamental to your being. That an entire and widespread behavior among gay males could simply arise out of some kind of political/social expedient (as has been suggested in this very thread) is absurd to the apex of absurdity. This is not an adopted affect; this is a life-long kind of thing, manifesting gradually and alongside physical maturity.

Also, effeminacy isn't necessarily found in things like lisps, drag, or other such superficialities. Effeminacy is in other things: your emotional maturity, your sociality, your cognitive strengths and weaknesses. The average female doesn't act like a gay male "flamer," so why would the average gay male act that way?

BTW, I am gay and generally do not fit these characteristics. It's a generality, basically.