where is the great communist society?

[samaniego]

I find it funny that a communist lounge has rooms designated for literature and music, being that communism has never flourished in either. Communist society restricts the arts and free thinking. And dont go into the real communist thing, thats old. Many talented people have fled their communist countrys, to better express themselves, to a country that allows and encourages people to become their best. Communism has no great society the only things linked to communism are death, poverty, and failure. These are not things attributed to a great society.

[canikickit]

You are extremely stupid. Most of the people here are not communist, when are you going to realise this? How can America claim to be the most free country in the world when its citizens cannot smoke cannabis or engage in prostitution?

Your retardation is quite amusing, but I grow tired of your presence.

(Edited by canikickit at 6:29 pm on Sep. 18, 2002)

[Xvall]

Fled their communist country?

Do me one favor; Tell me what country has achieved a classless moneyless society where the state has dissolved? Wait! If the state dissolves like it does under communism, there would be no COUNTRY to run away from!

[Red Revolution]

Quote: from samaniego on 6:23 pm on Sep. 18, 2002
I find it funny that a communist lounge has rooms designated for literature and music, being that communism has never flourished in either. Communist society restricts the arts and free thinking. And dont go into the real communist thing, thats old. Many talented people have fled their communist countrys, to better express themselves, to a country that allows and encourages people to become their best. Communism has no great society the only things linked to communism are death, poverty, and failure. These are not things attributed to a great society.



My friend listen

"Communist Litereture has never flourished" - Give me a break ever heard of Marx and Engles or even Guevara in some aspects.
Also Death is usually low in communist countries and if its high its usually a result of genocide which only occurs in unstructured communist govenments such as the Kmur Rouge. also a high quality of medical care is usually found such as Cuba and the former Soviet Union.
And the only way you think of Communism and poverty is because everyone is equal and they all have jobs, homes and food and unlike people in western countries do not clog uop thir lives with luxuries that if anything bring greed. They are more complete biengs.

Another thing I think you are getting at is the fact some of the people who use thins forum are (using CI's wording) "Commie cos it's different" that is true in a lot of cases but I can garantee you that the ones who have sat down and read marx and other Literiture and understood and put meaning to it are the ones witht their feet on the ground (the "interlectuals"). Ask the peole using che-lives if they have read any then you can jump to those conclusions.

And finnaly "Great society"- a socialist society of great comradship, equality and no disrimination
OR
A capitalist society full of corruption and greed where money rules and is not given to the deserving workers and rather tho the pockets of the "owners" and "investors".

See you around




(Edited by Red Revolution at 9:57 pm on Sep. 18, 2002)

[American Kid]

No, he's right about communism being artistically oppressive. That's how it is. That's why I hate it.

Hell, two weeks ago in China you couldn't log onto Google. I guess it's citizens weren't "mature" or maybe even "smart" enough to make that descision on their own.

It's oppressive.
-AK

[Anonymous]

men you cappies are relly stupid! how many times i and other ppl here jhave to tell you taht China is bloody stalinist, and not comunist! get this straihgt:

China=Stalinism

Stalinism=fake comunism (fascism)

Fascism=Repression

Therefore

China=repression

and...
Comunism=freedom of arts/expression/thoughts/actsetc...

so try to understend this and for once think before you post something really stupid like "Comunism is evil because it eats litle children"

[IzmSchism]

Well I am no artist, but many of my friends and family are musicians and writers.....and from my experience and observation, alot of inspiration comes out of the bleak, the troubles and misfortunes of daily life. So, if this communist society you so speak of which has no social support system (directly) for the arts, I believe in a indirect way it has spawned great artists. Such as Picasso.

[RedCeltic]

Anyone who thinks that communism/socialism is opressive to the arts doesn't take into account the major contributions it has had in the arts.

[Anonymous]

and when you say arts you can say science, literature etc.....

[Xvall]

How does communism opress the arts? If you want to make a valid point; then provite something from the communist manifesto for it. Don't just make crap up off the top of your head.

[j]

My fellow leftists,

The first thing we need to realize about our cappie foes is that they only see communism as it has materialized itself in the world. Yes China, the former USSR, and Cuba censor the arts. This is what our cappie foes are relating to. They are not forward thinkers of communism as many of us are. They do not understand the key concepts of communism nor are they willing to try to understand them. You see, they only see communism as it has played out in the real world. They are NOT progressive!!! Don't you see that capitalists are conservative and therefore are by definition not forward and progressive thinkers?

My comrades, we can yell and scream about what we know communism to be and THEY will still not understand based on the very fact that they are conservative.

j

[RGacky3]

Quote: from American Kid on 10:06 pm on Sep. 18, 2002
No, he's right about communism being artistically oppressive. That's how it is. That's why I hate it.

Hell, two weeks ago in China you couldn't log onto Google. I guess it's citizens weren't "mature" or maybe even "smart" enough to make that descision on their own.

It's oppressive.
-AK


nein AK you are wrong, some of the best art comes from socialist countries.

[RedCeltic]

It's funny really because I thought that American Kid fancied himself a writer... however obviously never heard of John Stinbeck.

[Field Marshal]

"No, he's right about communism being artistically oppressive. That's how it is. That's why I hate it.

Hell, two weeks ago in China you couldn't log onto Google. I guess it's citizens weren't "mature" or maybe even "smart" enough to make that descision on their own.

It's oppressive."
=======================================

Well do you know what American Kid, (In the precious United States) for how long were black people slaves, for how long were black people oppressed, for how long were women oppressed, for how long was the media censored, for how long was this nation embracing segregation......

People progress. Reforms are made. Truths are realized. Things take time. Give other nations a chance before you judge them so quickly and harshly. It's been 200 years and the US is still not perfect, China hasn't been given half that time.

I haven't read the other posts, but AK's stuck out ;) . I'll post later when I have time.

[American Kid]

Hmmmm, yes.............

Look's like I'm gonna be here another hour :)

Okay, *ahem* Stienbeck, tried to read "The Pearl", barely could. Not a huge fan, but that's okay. I think Polanski's a fraud, also, so there goes my cred *out the fuckin' window*

J:
I'm disturbed by your "Progressiveness", which is based on theory, but has never materialized. I've said this before, but I'll say it again, how many "experiments" do there have to be before people realize communism isn't going to work? In order for it to, a lot of changes need to be made. It's a tough medicine that people (who don't "understand" the revolution) are going to have to take. In many cases, they're going to resist, and will need to be "force-fed." We all know what that means.

I mean, seriously, J said it himself, "our cappie foes see communism only as it's materialized in the world." Yeah...................uh, exactly! HOW else am I going to see it?

I'm not going to hammer a fuckin' nail through my hand, because I've seen it happen and it looks like it hurts.

And it seems like whereever communism "happens" people (by the millions sometimes) get hurt and/or die.

To me it seems like logic. Just WHEN do you think it's going to happen as it should? I'm not an idiot, I have read Marx, I know what he's all about. He has amazing, wonderful ideals, but so did Dr. King, and there's still racists in the south (and north for that matter). How long are you going to be chasing these unatainable ideals before you realize enough people have died, with fruitless results?

RED REVOLUTION:
You think poverty is a good thing-- just because it makes people equal to each other?

Who says it makes them equal? Who's the judge of that? And equal number of material possesions makes people equal?

Why are you obsessed with materialism? I judge people by the content of their character, not by the number of cars in their garage.

And who are to guage what breeds greed? And if someone is greedy, what the fuck is that your business?

ANARCHIST:
China is Stalinist? Uh.............since when?

IZM SCHIZM:
Well I am an artist. I can tell you you're correct, a lot of "good shit" does come out of being miserable, but that's not necessarily a good thing. It seems like now you're just being an enabler: "Well, communism makes people despotic and lonely.......and that sucks, but uh.......hey, you'll write good songs out of it!!!"

It's common knowledge that part of communism to function, there has to be a degree of censorship, to keep the population in line, to quell counter-revolutionary actions and/or thoughts. Another tactic to keep people "equal". This is deplorable. Who has the right to tell what someone else has the right to think or say.

Picasso was also a drunk and womanizer.

DRAKE DRACOLI:
Read the above, and also there are MANY examples of the communists oppressing artists. There's the nobel prize winner from the Soviet Union who had to give his prize back and ended up an exile (I'll have to find him). Go rent a movie called "Before Night Falls" for another find example of how cordially artists are treated when they start "thinking for themselves."


There's more, if you want, I'll look them up. Shouldn't be hard.

And finally, I have a close friend from Lithuania. He grew up under communism (which is more, A LOT more, than most of you kids can say). He's a good guy, I like him a lot and respect him very much. He's an over-achieving, bright, all-around good guy. He doens't like talking about what it was like growing up. The most I can get out of him, is:

"It was oppressive...."

This is a kid who is very confident and self-assured, but when he talks about communism, he doesn't make eye-contact. It bums him out. It's easy, you can see it in his face.
-AK

[American Kid]

And Field Marshall, in a little over 200 years, we've come farther than any other nation in history.

-AK

[ArgueEverything]

"I'm disturbed by your "Progressiveness", which is based on theory, but has never materialized. I've said this before, but I'll say it again, how many "experiments" do there have to be before people realize communism isn't going to work? In order for it to, a lot of changes need to be made. It's a tough medicine that people (who don't "understand" the revolution) are going to have to take. In many cases, they're going to resist, and will need to be "force-fed." We all know what that means. "

You refer to communism (as practiced in the USSR, china etc) as an "experiment" which failed. True, but as you should know, all experiments should have variables. The type of communism tried throughout the world thus far have more or less been fashioned on the coercive, Soviet model. It's important to recognise that this model was applied NOT because coercion is inherent in communist theory, but because of the backwardness of the countries in question.

Marx predicted communist revolutions in industrialised nations of western Europe, not Russia or China. Indeed, one could make a strong case that he wouldn't have been surprised at all by the fall of the USSR, and would have seen its reversion to capitalism as progressive, insofar as it created a real urban proletariat, rather than the "substitute" proletariat (the peasantry).

Most comrades on this board agree that the WORKERS should lead the communist revolution. Since the revolutions of China, the USSR, cuba, and any other "communist" country you can name were not led by workers, i see no reason why we should have to defend them in any way.

"I mean, seriously, J said it himself, "our cappie foes see communism only as it's materialized in the world."

Yeah...................uh, exactly! HOW else am I going to see it?"

As a theory that has not been put into practice. Look, you seem to fail to realise that millions of communists reject totally the Soviet model of communism, and have done since 1917. Why, if some commies denounced the elite vanguardist nature of the Soviet revolution the very moment it occured, should these same commies have to be tainted by the crimes of Stalinism? Do you judge Christians on the horrible things pseudo-Christian colonialists did to the 3rd world, or do you judge them on their individual merits?


"To me it seems like logic. Just WHEN do you think it's going to happen as it should? I'm not an idiot, I have read Marx, I know what he's all about. He has amazing, wonderful ideals, but so did Dr. King, and there's still racists in the south (and north for that matter). How long are you going to be chasing these unatainable ideals before you realize enough people have died, with fruitless results?"

The allusion to MLK seems strange to me, unless you are trying to argue that his ideas should never have become government policy simply because they could not be universalised.

[Anonymous]

"China is Stalinist? Uh.............since when?"

Since always

[RedCeltic]

Okay, *ahem* Stienbeck, tried to read "The Pearl", barely could. Not a huge fan, but that's okay. I think Polanski's a fraud, also, so there goes my cred *out the fuckin' window*

Firstly forgive me for screwing up the spelling of his name... but anyway... it doesn't matter what you think of one of the greatest American (SOCIALIST) writers ever. The point is that socialism HAS influenced art and literature.

That, my friend is a fact. Learn alittle about modern art, or literature like that of HG Wells, Jack London, etc..You seem to be quite unwilling to venture outside your closed little mind and learn about the contributions of some of the world's greatest minds who cared about humanity.

Well... this is a worthless argument, it's quite pointless to argue with people who wish to wallow in ignorance. This is very much like an argument I had with a kid once who swore that there where 54 states in the US. No matter how many facts you display, you just can't proove anything to people who stick their fingers in their ears, shut their eyes, continue to rely on the ignorance and misconceptions that warp their limited brains.


(Edited by RedCeltic at 9:05 am on Sep. 19, 2002)

[uth1984]

Comrades -- what we often forget is that socialism is a economic/political theory. In the communist manifesto there is little mention of the arts because of this. However, under socialst contries, the arts recieve much more funding than under capitalism. ergo, the arts would be better -- it would be easier for a person to be a professional artist, simply because he is paid.

[Frosty]

Also, under REAL communism, individuals are supposed to be able to use their artistic abilities which they could not use in a capitalist society.

[RedCeltic]

under socialst contries, the arts recieve much more funding than under capitalism. ergo, the arts would be better -- it would be easier for a person to be a professional artist, simply because he is paid.

This is a good point, and one that seems to be missed by our capitalist boot licking friends here. They are quick to spout misconcieved propaganda, however overlook problems in capitalistic society where funding is threatened, reduced, or cut from the arts...exp: the arts in school in order to ballance the budget, or the fairly recent example of ex-mayor of New York who threatened to cut funding to the Brooklyn museum of art because as a catholic he was offended at a "Dung art" representation of Mary.

[Field Marshal]

Well, I think communism/marxism is the economic and political theory. Socialism is a way of life.

[samaniego]

I have to say that Marx and Che where both great men; however great writers they weren't. And why do you insist on arguing that true communism thing? How can I argue with utopian ideals? I assume you think that man some how will become perfect in communism, because Im telling you this now, Marx nor Engles promised perfection. Communism has to suppress the arts, the arts questions the establishment and creates individuals, no good communist country wants individuals, they want unity. I like your appeal to humanity "J" it shows you have the heart of a good guy, but Im not narrow minded, Im pragmatic. Man regardles of his economic view point is a savage, and nothing can change him from that.

[RedCeltic]

That's compleate bull. Art is not only an expression of an individual, but also an expression of a society. Those struggling for social equality have always expressed social issues through their art.

When you have a one party athoriterian state however, than it's natural for the government to control what is expressed through art. That's the Stalinist example.

Libriterian Communism/Democratic Socialism/Social-Anarchy etc... are all twofold movements focused on economic and political freedoms. People must be given the freedom of expression, otherwise... the government wouldn't last. At least, not in a nation where they are used to such freedoms.

In the United States, we have too much Government and economic control on the arts. In writing for example.. a new author has to be willing to take tons of rejections ( simply for being unknown) and willing to take considerable losses, even to the extent of paying for the publication themselves... If you lucky, or know someone, get noticed by the right people... than perhaps you can break into the field. However, it's still rare to become wealthy off of it like Steven King.

[new democracy]

i didn't read the entire thread,but i want to say something about the fact that communism oppress arts. yes it does oppress arts but so is every other oppressive regime, like pro american pinochet. and yes, i am not communit.