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MaxB
15th September 2002, 16:42
Modern Communists and Socialists: A Movement of Fraud

This list explains some of the psychological motives behind the neo-socialist/communist motives as well as identifies some major sub movements within the socialist/communist movements as well as the thinking, and fallacies, behind these movements.
The Poser Commie Movement:
Possibly accounting for over 90% of the people who claim to be socialists or communists, the poser commie movement is typically followed by those of younger age groups. Most who follow this movement tend to adopt socialism for the sole purpose of social deviance and protest of society's values. In other words, they hear that communism conflicts with freedom, morality, and other mainstream societal values so they claim to be communists to protest exactly such. Poser commie followers rarely demonstrate any actual knowledge themselves of the communist and socialist philosophy, though openly claiming to endorse the philosophy. The poser commie movement is not one of true socialism as it adopts only a title of "socialism" with limited and extremely shallow substance behind it. This movement's motives tend to be limited to a mentality that communism and socialism are against what America stands for and what society teaches one to stand for and therefore must "cool." Based almost entirely on a desire to find a method to "defy" and "protest" freedom and democracy with a seemingly obvious opposition to it, poser communism is little more than a following of fraudulent foolishness.

Socialist and Communist Ideologue Movement:
Typically comprised of those who have extensively studied Marx, Lenin, and Trotsky's writings (and often little more), this movement rarely acknowledges the dismal failures of the communist and socialist philosophies when instituted in practice. Often claiming "True communism has never really been instituted" and insisting that if it were, it would work, the ideologue movement often follows utopian dreams rather than recognizing the flaws of reality. Numerous ideologue web sites promising a better society while claiming to sympathize with the workers in an effort to make everything fair and just have sprung up recently with links to this movement. This ideologue movement is often too deluded to realize flaws exist in the socialist and communist theory and therefore it speaks of a utopia physically unattainable due to inherent flaws and simple impossibility. This highly dogmatic ideologue movement often propagandizes communism and socialism with the writings of Upton Sinclair, John Steinbeck, and Leon Trotsky while trying to force this type of thought on others.

Demagogue Movement:
This small movement is mostly limited to those who seek to use communism and socialism as a facade for achieving power. Many of histories great communist dictators such as Stalin and Castro are perfect examples of demagogues. Quoting communist theories while working their way to power behind the scenes, demagogues often prove extremely tyrannical when finally on top. The demagogue movement is in its own right an uninvited and unwanted branch of communism/socialism that draws to the theory inevitably for communism and socialism often entail wide, unchecked power consolidated in a very defined few plus a resulting need to encroach upon freedom and liberty, as is inherently necessary for implementation of communist and socialist systems.

Old Guard Communist Movement:
The Old Guard Communist Movement is typically a reactionary one comprised of Soviet Union leftovers. Endorsing a return to old Soviet way, though in reality that way was a disastrous failure, as a solution to transition problems in the economies of former Soviet states has become a rallying cry for the Old Guard Movement.

Xvall
15th September 2002, 17:22
Seeing as you ripped all of that off this (http://members.tripod.com/~GOPcapitalist/socialistmyth.html) site I'm not going to debate against it. But I will say this; What you have listed is a mass of generalized garbage. If poser communists were to exist; they wouldn't really be considered poser communists since they don't really know about the theories. They just think it sounds like a good idea. I wouldn't call them posers since, for the most part, they don't really represent the communist ideal. Maybe I'll write a real argument to this insolent claim later.

Xvall
15th September 2002, 17:48
All right; I’ll respond completely to you little article now? Alright? Okay, good. Here we go.

The Poser Commie Movement:

You stated many reasons in which I shall address. You believe that there is some poser communist movement while I insist that there is no such movement; although people like this do exist. The same goes for any ideology.


“ Possibly accounting for over 90% of the people who claim to be socialists or communists, the poser commie movement is typically followed by those of younger age groups. ”

I haven’t the slightest clue as to how you came to this conclusion! What makes you think 90% of communists are a bunch of kids? Did you poll every communists? Do most communists you know fit this criteria? Do you even know any real communists? Anyone can claim to belong to an ideology; it doesn’t mean that It’s necessarily true. Most communists I know aren’t that young; in fact; most communists and socialists on this board are older, ranging from twenty to thirty years old. If anything, anarchy is more popular for younger individuals. Are you insisting that some Communists are young? So what? Age means nothing. Obviously once people reach a certain age they are capable of thinking and making their own decisions by themselves. Most patriotic young Americans are a bunch of kids who don’t even know who their governor is; I can use the same excuse to claim that Capitalism and Americanism is nothing more than a Poser American Movement.

“ Most who follow this movement tend to adopt socialism for the sole purpose of social deviance and protest of society's values. ”

Once again; I have no idea where you or your conservative friends got this idea. Nine out of ten communists will probably not rant on about society but rather the government. You seem to believe that communists want nothing more than to start trouble! Where do you get this!? When was the last time some communists when out of control and started a riot, or campaigned against society?

“ In other words, they hear that communism conflicts with freedom, morality, and other mainstream societal values so they claim to be communists to protest exactly such. ”

Yes, such stupid individuals exist. They are usually Stalinists. They are not posers; they just got the ideology screwed up. The only reason they think that communism is about discord and abolishing freedom is because people like J. Edgar Hoover tell them such things. These communists are a result of America’s excessive anti-communistic movements and actions.

“ Poser commie followers rarely demonstrate any actual knowledge themselves of the communist and socialist philosophy, though openly claiming to endorse the philosophy. ”

Yes. But then again; someone who doesn’t actually know anything about the communist or socialist theory shouldn’t be considered a communist or a socialist. These are the type of people that spell his name ‘Carl Marks’. In general, all I can say about these few poser communists is that they aren’t real. They’re ignorant, and probably aren’t tied to their beliefs. They are insignificant.

Socialist and Communist Ideologue Movement:

“ Often claiming "True communism has never really been instituted ”

True communism WASN’T instituted! Nothing has come close to it! Communism is defined at the final stage of socialism when the society has become one without class and without money. The state is to have withered away. Communism is essentially anarchy.

Demagogue Movement:

Demagogue movement? These people are essentially opportunists. They aren’t using communism to achieve power. They use whatever they can to achieve power. Communism just happens to be in the way; so they take hold of it and abuse it. This could be done with any other ideology as well.

Old Guard Communist Movement:

These are like the communist posers. But they are usually older. They consist of a bunch of Stalinists, basically. They aren’t communists. They’re just radical nutcases who think that Stalin was a great guy, and want the Soviet Union to return. They don’t actually care about Communism. A new Stalin could reemerge as a capitalist and they would still follow him like sheep.

antieverything
15th September 2002, 19:48
This article does actually have some good points but it only talks about certain groups of the movement and completely ignores Democratic Socialists (spusa), Progressives (Green Party), and actual trade unionists.

Field Marshal
15th September 2002, 22:15
MaxB, I have seen this type of thing before. I'm pretty sure that you don't even read the scripts that you paste here. What I suggest is to read them, understand the concepts, get your ideas together, and then come here and debate them.

Lefty
16th September 2002, 02:52
maxB is starting to annoy me...i dont think he has actually read any of his posts, just copy and pasted them.

Xvall
16th September 2002, 02:56
Yes. Not only were they swiped off a website; but he probably didn't read them either. Then he accuses people of Denying Facts; when it's quite blatantly opinion.

vox
16th September 2002, 03:50
"This ideologue movement is often too deluded to realize flaws exist in the socialist and communist theory and therefore it speaks of a utopia physically unattainable due to inherent flaws and simple impossibility."

All right, MaxB, you wanna play? The passage from your copy-and-paste post I quoted above states, unequivocally, that socialism can never work, due to "inherent flaws" and "simple impossibility." However, the writer of the piece seems to want everyone to accept that on faith, and while I understand that the GOP is a faith-based party (placing blind faith in the fictional "free market"), I'm not so good at accepting things right-wingers say on faith.

So, how about you define precisely what "simply impossiblility" means here, okay? I suggest that it's a nonsense term that has no actual meaning and is entirely without value. Prove me wrong.

Also, name a few of the "inherent flaws" in "socialist theory" (as if there is one, universal socialist theory!) which should be easy for someone like you to do.

I'll be waiting.

vox

El Che
16th September 2002, 17:05
Don`t hold your breath. This annoying idiot has yet to reply to any of the replies addressed to his useless and vulgar right-wing propaganda.

Felicia
16th September 2002, 19:34
quote from MaxB
Most who follow this movement tend to adopt socialism for the sole purpose of social deviance and protest of society's values
I'd just like to say here that I adopted communism when I was around 16 and by the time I decided to share it with the people around me, including my friends, I was nearly 18. I've never used my beliefs as a form of "social deviance", it's silly to say that "most" of us are like that.


(Edited by felicia at 3:32 pm on Sep. 17, 2002)

suffianr
17th September 2002, 03:09
"What if Elvis is alive, and we're all dead?"

And are you here as a representative of the Poser Anti-Communist Movement, MaxB?