the roots of communism

[samaniego]

Communism can not succeed when those who lead revolts are middle class idealist running around with communist tautalogy trying to convince the peasantry to revolt. The middle class individual has no ties with those who live in poverty to create a common bond under which a unified revolt can be carried out. Until the revolt comes from those who are in poverty the theory of communism is dead.

[man in the red suit]

what makes you believe that anything you just said is true?

and I always believed that for some reason you, yourself were a communist or socialist. I believe I must have been mistaken.

The middle class can have strong ties to either side. If you own private property then you will most likely sympathize a capitalist. you can also support the other side just as easily. A middle class person can still be a proletariat. And we do not preach communism to peasants in hopes that they will join us. Peasants are not proletariats. The spirit of communism only dies when people like you condem it and fail to put any faith in it. And what makes you believe that we are all ideological? Communism can be as scientific (Marxist-Leninist) as it can be ideological (utopian anarchism). Communists and socialists are not just hippies preaching useless communistic dogma to each other, despite what you and a few others believe.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Either way, you can't have revolution unless the majority of people want it.

You need a majority dissidence in the interssts of the people.

However, you do not have that in the US. The vast, vast majority of americans are very happy with the democratic republic system and capitalism, and do not want major political change.

[man in the red suit]

You are absolutely right. Even I support American capitalism. I can't complain and say that it is evil. I would rather live in Norway but I can't possibly say that America takes away my freedoms, nonsense. I only want you to see that we are not all a bunch of idealistic bumbling idiots. We have theories, philosophies, and political views just as much as you do. Samaniego gives me the distinct impression that he thinks we are all a bunch of fools, which disturbs me. i wandered in here for whatever reason and simply had to answer to this. I normally do not post in socialism vs. capitalism for the same reason that punkrawker said once, all I have to do is walk outside if I want a political argument. But this one just irritates me.

[ArgueEverything]

The middle class is torn between the proletariat and the bourgeosie. In that sense, they cannot form a class for themselves - they are too divided, they have no common interest. So its silly to label the middle class "capitalist" and thereby exclude them from the socialist cause.

[Nateddi]

@mitrs

what exactly is it that you support about american capitalism? personally i consider my personal analysis of political systems as objective as one can have a personal opinion (which isn't an easy thing to have). However, that which i am the most supportive of in the united states can hardly be the capitalism. i do not find american capitalism per se as something to be very supportive of at heart. So again, what exactly is it that you find worthy of support in american capitalism?

[Nateddi]

@samaniego

i must say, overall i agree with your statement. nonetheless, in my opinion, marxist philosophy in several certain fields (though most definitely not all) is dead as we know it. the fact that there is a prominent middle class for the most part flourishing in the united states makes the marxist concept of class struggle hardly applicable to the united states. the revolution (violent or not, perhaps even sparked through democratic action) will almost obviously not be led in the united states. i can elaborate on the roots of this theory perhaps later on.

[Mazdak]

Lenin was middle class and yet the people followed him.

The theory of communism wasnt destroyed because he was middle class. Keep in mind Stalin and Trotsky were both of lower class backgrounds. It was after Stalins death and the Cold War that destroyed the USSR's chance for communism. Not Lenin's social statis.

[Nateddi]

correction: lenin was born in a petty-bourgeois family, as marx was, however lenin did not subvert to the petty-bourgeois lifestyle. as far as i know (somebody verify this), after the revolution lenin remained at the level of an average working class russian in his lifestyle. lenin prior to the revolution was exiled numerous times and lived as a writer and revolutionary moreso than a member of a particular socioeconomic class.

[Field Marshal]

samaniego,

You'd be surprised how many poor people can indulge in revolutionary literature and philosophy and romanticize about a better society. Marx's book was intended to reach the people who had time to read his work, to help the ones who didn't.

[man in the red suit]

Quote: from Nateddi on 2:02 am on Sep. 15, 2002
@mitrs

what exactly is it that you support about american capitalism? personally i consider my personal analysis of political systems as objective as one can have a personal opinion (which isn't an easy thing to have). However, that which i am the most supportive of in the united states can hardly be the capitalism. i do not find american capitalism per se as something to be very supportive of at heart. So again, what exactly is it that you find worthy of support in american capitalism?

let me correct myself. I do not support American capitalism. I simply do not oppose the living standards that it provides. I can't possibly complain about not having enough money for food or what not. I do not support capitalism but I don't think it is that bad as it is hyped up to be. I think I will just discontinue posting here until I can say something that is not foolish. I have never been the best at these arguments anyway. So you will excuse me if I leave the arguing to the more educated people here. :)

[Stormin Norman]

"let me correct myself. I do not support American capitalism. I simply do not oppose the living standards that it provides. I can't possibly complain about not having enough money for food or what not. I do not support capitalism but I don't think it is that bad as it is hyped up to be."- man in the red suit

Why would you discontinue posting now. It seems that your comment is one of the first rational thoughts I have heard espoused by a leftist on this board. What you just said is valid and represents your ability to evaluate your situation honestly. Maybe you should join our side of the debate and seperate from these dreaded communists. With rational remarks like this you will be deemed a traitor and kicked out of the communist party anyway.

[man in the red suit]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 9:35 am on Sep. 15, 2002
"let me correct myself. I do not support American capitalism. I simply do not oppose the living standards that it provides. I can't possibly complain about not having enough money for food or what not. I do not support capitalism but I don't think it is that bad as it is hyped up to be."- man in the red suit

Why would you discontinue posting now. It seems that your comment is one of the first rational thoughts I have heard espoused by a leftist on this board. What you just said is valid and represents your ability to evaluate your situation honestly. Maybe you should join our side of the debate and seperate from these dreaded communists. With rational remarks like this you will be deemed a traitor and kicked out of the communist party anyway.


lmao yeah seriously. I am likely to be disowned by my fellow comrades if word of this were to get out. hehe.

I try to look at things from both perspectives before I fall head over heels in leftist beliefs however i more often than not sympathise the leftist perspective on most social issues. I myself do not "support american capitalism but I do not oppose it. American capitalism has benefited me with all of my natural nessescities as well as many luxuries which I find might possibly be difficult to obtain in a communist society. But don't get me wrong fellow leftists, capitalism is the worst thing in existance in the rest of the world. capitalism disgusts me in all other regions of the world. I am sorry Normin, I am just a stupid leftist embarassment and not an intelligent capitalist. there is a certain feeling in my heart that tells me that I will only be truly happy and be able to fill my "spiritual gaps" when I am living in a commune. I cannot even explain it over a posting board. I have not evolved enough yet to argue with such genius capitalists such as yourself. A dumbass with no political knowledge on the street, yes, but you, no. I cannot put my feelings into logical arguments that will convince you to join our side. I only make myself look like a fool. I am afraid that I must decline your offer to join your side of the argument and risk the chance of being kicked out of the communist party. lol. But good luck to you in smashing our evil, plutocratic, communist system that steals everyones' freedoms. jk. Don't worry I will be back to argue with you just as soon as I gain some good arguments that are StorminNormin worthy.

[Stormin Norman]

I guess I should have known the twelve step program for communists would be a failure. Twelve step programs are for sucks. Therefore, I thought it would work on commies. Obviously, the only hope for left wingers remains a full frontal labotomy. Haldof or Lithium might also work. Either way, the only cures result in your drooling all over you shoes, or more accurately your slippers.

[Nateddi]

mitrs:

how has capitalism benefited you? you surely did not earn all that i suppose you imply yourself, you inherited it. i have never visited you, therefore i cannot say i know what those certain "benefits" and "luxuries" happen to be or why you believe that those specific ones will not be avaliable in a communist system.

in any case, i would have no problem living the way i did in the USSR if it meant the world was self-sufficient and the global income gap was reduced to the point of at least near elimination of economic classes. i would not be quick to give kudos to the american economic system when talking about benefits, because most drug companies would be nothing without state subsidies, and the private sector dependance on foreign exploitation is as important block of capitalism as a leg on a chair.