September 11 Anniversary

[mujer revolucionaria]

Metalbunny in another thread says...."Everyone tell me how people react near you to the one year anniversary."

I didnt think the thread it was in was appropriate for my answer. I would have been getting a bit off topic.

I for one, am not watching the televisions, I refuse to witness the pappy concerts for rememberance, (Enrique Iglesias? come on!) and political rhetoric. But, as I was coming home tonight, I was thinking about what I was doing a year ago to the morning of September 11th.

I remember that day so well.....and when I saw the buildings collapse, I didnt see smoke, steel and debris, I saw thousands of people dying. I saw it live on television at the University I was attending, as we were all packed in a small office, silent and crying. It makes me so sick the circus of media "entertainment" thrown out there in "rememberance." I dont need to see the footage again, it will be embedded in my head forever. The repeated viewing of the footage, I think only desensitizes people to the fear, grief and shock of what happened. I remember not knowing if it was over, what was the next target? Could we be in danger where I was at? etc.....it was very very frightening. And yet, what I experienced that day was very minimal to what many people have to deal with in other countries around the world.

As I feel a great sadness as this date has approached, it brings back those emotions and thoughts which I felt on that day. And I grieve not only for the lives lost in the USA, but all over the world. People who die senselessly in the name of money, politics, ideologies, religion and conquest......Americans never experienced it first hand til that day, and it saddens me still that most Americans are still insensitized to death and destruction outside of our borders and at the hands of our country. The blind patriotism that has swelled in our country is saddening.

When I think of the deaths on Sept 11, I dont think of numbers.....I think of the individuals who I hear stories of. The woman who was at the top of the WTC, as it was burning who called her dad to tell her she loved him, and then left a message on her husbands answering machine, basically saying she loved him and goodbye. She knew she was going to die. That just tears my insides up. Imagine the pain and fear that woman and her family went through. And that pain is not isolated to Americans. People throughout the world deal with this violence and grief everyday. We, as Americans only had a taste of what many countries go through on a regular basis, fear and grief.

I think for once I agree with a Bush.....Laura Bush made a statement to turn off the televisions. And I can think of no better thing to do. Instead of blanking in front of one more Dateline episode, spend some time with your family and do something kind for a friend or stranger. I think that would be a better rememberance of victims of war and destruction the world over.

PEACE

[Lardlad95]

I'm afraid I have to disagree. We should watch what happened to help us remmber how horrible it was.

Cuz down the line if we don't keep remembering children who weren' alive then won't know how horrible it was....to them its just another day they woont understand how horrible itwas unless they see it

[mujer revolucionaria]

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 12:20 am on Sep. 12, 2002
I'm afraid I have to disagree. We should watch what happened to help us remmber how horrible it was.

Cuz down the line if we don't keep remembering children who weren' alive then won't know how horrible it was....to them its just another day they woont understand how horrible itwas unless they see it

I agree with you....what I am talking about is the present, the barrage of scenes which you and I likely saw hundreds of times over. And only a year later, they are going to replay the scenes over and over and over again. I heard a guy interviewed on NPR who said he was pretty much desenstized to it, and it doesnt phase him one bit any longer. That is what I dont want to happen. Ya know?

I am not talking about never showing it again, or trying to forget about it.

[boadicea88]

Nkow what makse me felll worst/? the fact tha tbUsh let 911 hapen. He anf his cronies should be executerd for trersaon and mudrer! He just le those poeplr DIE!!

(Edited by boadicea88 at 11:16 pm on Sep. 10, 2002)

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from mujer revolucionaria on 7:01 am on Sep. 11, 2002

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 12:20 am on Sep. 12, 2002
I'm afraid I have to disagree. We should watch what happened to help us remmber how horrible it was.

Cuz down the line if we don't keep remembering children who weren' alive then won't know how horrible it was....to them its just another day they woont understand how horrible itwas unless they see it

I agree with you....what I am talking about is the present, the barrage of scenes which you and I likely saw hundreds of times over. And only a year later, they are going to replay the scenes over and over and over again. I heard a guy interviewed on NPR who said he was pretty much desenstized to it, and it doesnt phase him one bit any longer. That is what I dont want to happen. Ya know?

I am not talking about never showing it again, or trying to forget about it.


oh ok I feel you.

But the thing is I didn't see that many images and they still don't effect me.

I don't want to sound heartless...the whole thing leaves great pain in my heart...but watching it...I'm not gonna go to peices.

Prior to the attacks I knew the world was fucked up...All over the world people were butchered, by their enemies, by their own leaders, by the US.

WHat pisses me off is that else where in teh world people are being brutally slaughtered the US could give less than a shit...but as soon as it comes to the US it actually matters?

Man fuck that, what happened at the WTC was terrible it was awful, horrible and I despise the people that did it.

But there are two things I firmly believe

1. I am not I repeat I am not going to give into false patriotism because something happened here, shit happened all over the world, I cared then, I care now my position has not changed, what happened is just another horrible atrocity that was committed in the world. To me it is no worse than a south african student being rolled over by a tank, a middle eastern wedding bombed to smitherieens, a Jewish mother placed in an oven with her baby, a black man lynched for no good reason.

people fail to realize that this isn't the only bad shit in the world.

American's have been selfish since 9/11 suddenly death is terrible...but only because it happened on our soil.

Do you think the taliban would have been taken down by the US is 9/11 attacks never occured? Hell no, fuck the government, using this to fuel its own propaganda instead of trying to really help out.

We knew the Taliban opressed people before 9/11 so why didn't we do anything about it then?

Because the US government is selfish and only cares about its self it could igve a rat's ass about the freedom of the rest of the world.

2. The government are hypocrites. They claim to back firefighters and police men...firefighters needed more money they asked the government..Bush refused.

Bush used them he used the people that actually went into the wreckage to save lives and I hate him for that.

Fuck him and his administration.

He has used this whole thing to boost his approval ratings.

Now he's going after sadam? Why did this just suddenly pop up for no reason?

What he couldn't catch osama so he got the next best thing?

He has no evidence, he has nothing. He wasn't thinking about Sadam before this....no he just wants America to love him for something that makes no sene.

All Bush is is animage if it wasn't for 9/11 he would have been just anohter face less president that we eventually forget...he wouldn't have been significant.

9/11 saved him from being forgotten, he got lucky and he used it to play up his own image.

It saved him from mediocrity

Was 9/11 terrible? Yes of course and I'm not remmbering it for america I'm using that day to remmber all the atrocities across the world that America doen't care about.

[mujer revolucionaria]

Lardlad....you sentiments echo my own.....

PEACE :)

[Guest]

Although people shouldn'yt have died, I think the US needed a little put down...

[RedCeltic]

I'm attending a teach in conference here in Albany by the Campus Greens which will have several speakers talking about, "Why sept 11 happened: conflicting Interpitations."

"Responding with more democracy: clean money-clean elections."

"An Alternitive to Nuclear Proliferation."

And discussions from a panel of the local community.

[El Chancho]

And dont forget, he sold pictures of himself on 9/11 with his *serious* face on.Just to make a profit.

[STALINSOLDIERS]

happy september 11 its a great day , im gonna celebrate and burning an american flag and just celebrate...hahaha i hope more well come to you capitalist americans....god bless osama..

[sugarcandy113]

yeah, did u guys do a minutes silence?!? My fucking headteacher said that we couldnt do it because it was a hard day for us all?!?!WTF?!?!

He's such a disrespecful ****, i HATE him, but it wasnt worth my breath to argue with him cause he's a breast.

[canikickit]

I hated that fucking tribute.

[boadicea88]

I flew the flag upside-down. I always sit for the anthem. I'm a good American.

[Red Revolution]

9-11 was bad even though it woke up the sopposed invincible Americans but I think they are milking it to far now. You should remember not use it as a scapepgoat to all the nations you oppose or want to get rid of because their view don't co-incide with your own.

[Nateddi]

9-11 was inevitable, does not matter who was president.

[Mazdak]

I agree wiht natedidi.

But although this is a tragedy, it has been turned into more than it ever should have been. I am so sick of hearing about "hero firemen" and "hero police men." Sure they were brave, but they were just doing their job. Does anyone think for one second if they knew the towers were in such bad shape, they would have went in there? The answer is no.

And ROFLMAO to SS. His posts are always funny.

[komsomol]

Yeah I was so pissed off today, I was silent during the minute silence but one of my classmates was like, "Can we play the star spangled banner by Jimmi Hendrix" and I replied "What the fuck, we're not even fucking Americans".

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Mazdak on 9:41 pm on Sep. 11, 2002
I agree wiht natedidi.

But although this is a tragedy, it has been turned into more than it ever should have been. I am so sick of hearing about "hero firemen" and "hero police men." Sure they were brave, but they were just doing their job. Does anyone think for one second if they knew the towers were in such bad shape, they would have went in there? The answer is no.

And ROFLMAO to SS. His posts are always funny.


SS aint funny man

but I think that if anyone was going to be called a hero atleast it was the people who rescued people....and not Bush.

And I also believe it was inevitable...sad that it had to happen though.


During the moment of silence I just kept tapping my pencil....not out of disrespect but silence aint helpin

I also had to write an editorial for my history class...mine kinda bad motuhed Bush and he is turning them into the local Newspaper....

looks like theres gonna be an old fashioned lynching for lardlad

[Mazdak]

lol Lardlad. They wanted us to pray, but i put my head on the desk and slept through it. I dont need to hear anymore about it. It has happened. There are more important things going on right now that we shoudl worry aobut, besides going back and milking September 11th again.

[Nateddi]

they wanted you to pray??

do you go to a public school? because that is illegal in public schools.

[Mazdak]

No, i go to catholic High school. Ironic, someone anti religion goes to religion class. I enjoy stumping the religion teachers.

[RedCeltic]

Do you change into your uniform in the boy's room at school so you don't get beaten up on the subway or does mommy give you a ride to school?

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Mazdak on 1:09 am on Sep. 12, 2002
No, i go to catholic High school. Ironic, someone anti religion goes to religion class. I enjoy stumping the religion teachers.



you stump religious teachers? LMAO! those must be some pretty dumb teachers if you stumped them

no offense kid

[RedCeltic]

you stump religious teachers? LMAO! those must be some pretty dumb teachers if you stumped them

no offense kid

Catholic school teachers normally only learn about their own religion and therefore have a very narow view of religion. To stump a catholic school teacher is very easy in fact... if you deviate in any way from the pre-instructed jargon they dish out... their arguments fall apart.

I suppose Mazdak should consider himself lucky he goes to Catholic school in 2002, and not 1952... if he tried that then he'd be given the switch by a very stern faced nun.

(Edited by RedCeltic at 7:44 pm on Sep. 11, 2002)

[Xvall]

I feel Mazdaks pain. I was raised in a Catholic School; It's fucked up. They made me write a mother's day car to mary, and they also told me I would burn in hell for not being baptised. Oh well. (I'm sure I've told this story a millions times.)

[Pinko]

Bombs & Silences

They said we ought to have 3 minutes silence.
I thought: The dead from 2 world wars only rate 2 minutes.
But most of them didn’t speak american.
So I tried hard to have 3 minutes silence,
But all I could hear was all these voices,
Screaming,
But most of them didn’t speak american.
I heard ghost voices from Hanoi, ghost voices from Hiroshima,
Ghost voices from Beirut, ghost voices from Baghdad,
& the Secretary of State says: This is a price worth paying.
Half a million children in Iraq, this is a price worth paying?
I don’t believe it helps much, all this arithmetic,
An eye for an eye for an eye for an eye
just makes the whole world blind.
They said we ought to have 3 minutes silence.
I think we ought to have a different kind of justice

By
ROBB JOHNSON



(Edited by Pinko at 2:37 am on Sep. 12, 2002)

[mujer revolucionaria]

amen pinko

[Guest]

I went to catholic school, though atheist I still love the catholic church, when I have children they will be heading to catholic school too. Ignoring all the religious dogma you still get morals you won't find in a protastant school where you recieve condoms instead of a lecture telling you not to have promiscues (sp?) sex.

[Lardlad95]

we all know catholocism has problems but those people don't know any better

[peaccenicked]

9/11
Happy birthday!
How many times do we need reminded?
That so many Afghani innocents were murdered as a consequence. Talk about unbalanced reporting.

[LeonardoDaVinci]

During the minute silence I remembered the thousands who lost their lives in the US backed coup in Chile on September 11 1973. I remembered the hundreds of thousands that perished in Vietnam and Cambodia as a consequence of the indiscriminate carpet bombing of those two countries. I remembered the scores of human beings that have been tortured and murdered in Central and South America by US imposed dictators. I remembered the half a million Iraqi children that have died and countless more who have suffered as a result of UN sanctions. I remembered those who were slain in cold blood in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camp in Lebanon. I remembered the plight of the Palestinian people who have lost thousands upon thousands in search of their independence. And finally, in the remaining seconds, I remembered those who lost their lives in the twin towers and their grieving families and hoped that Americans will at last spare a few moments for introspection of oneself, and consequently repudiate the intransigent unilateralism of their government and its ongoing quest for vengeance.

[STALINSOLDIERS]

i prey to Allah to the death of u$a

[canikickit]

I fail to understand a lot of your views on this.
I hate the propaganda and commercialism, but other than that their is no problem with remembering lost lives.
That poem was deadly Pinko.

[Mazdak]

SS, you had some good ideas, but man, you really make yourself look like such a dumbass. You couldnt even spell "Pray" correctly. I am not even against you(for the most part).

RC- i know what you mean, my mother had to deal with that problem(not really, but she has told me about it plenty of times).

TS Admire the catholic church. I may be as anti protestant as anti catholic, but the catholic church is antiquated. You'd rather send your children to catholic school and stand the chance of having them molested then a protestant one or heck... why not public school?

And lardlad, as ReDCelitc said, they are almost like drones. they only have the narrowminded view. I always ask about the Order of the Templar and the Arians.

[Bear]

I was about to say what my school chaplian told us. but it has already been posted, he basicly said that american should use this incident to aquire the taste of blood in their on mouth, from a quick 1,2 jab combo, no pun intended, my words aswell. But good old americans, if anything happens, capitalise on it and sell postcards on it. That is stuffed up. Honor the dead, dont sell pictures that caused their death.

But i find the surcumstances quite amusing. people have said in this post that they should learn from the T.V footage, but how whould u feelin if this happened.
"alright son here, this is the Tape of CNN. and its footage of the incident, the collector stamp collection, the t-shirt, the sweater, the view master slide"
Its fucked.

Bear

[Capitalist Imperial]

This is one of the most nauseating and disappointing threads I've ever seen on this board, even among you pukes.

I've seen nothing here but disrespect, avoiding the real issue, trying to make yourselves feel better by discussing "american atrocties" almost as id it justifies 9/11.

Not to mention the idiot conspiracy theories that "bush and the government knew it was going to happen". This claim has been touted by a few of the wackos in this forum, and let me tell you, it just makes you look extremely stupid.

Your misplaced irreverence and lack of respect for the great nation of the United States is matched only by your inability to abstract out the difference between just and legitimate military action against an armed enemy and a cowardly attack of unarmed civilians that don't even see the attack coming.

Much of this board consists of people painting america with a very broad brush, touting that the "evil empire" must change.

I agree, America is not perfect, as no nation is. However, one must ask, what would be an alternative? China as the world power? Surely, you must concede that their human rights record is much worse than the United states.

And what about the positive contributions that the United States has made? We have given the world the vast majority of inventions and innovations in the last 100 years.

It is the USA that gives more in humanitarian aid, monetary aid, disaster relief, and debt relief every year.

It is the USA that saved the world from Nazi control at d-day and the battle of the buldge, and the "mighty 8th" air force did more damage to the nazi war machine than any other force. All of this while we fought the japaneze in the pacific theatre with almost alone with little help form europe.

You all make me sick with you one-sided interpretations and blanket beliefs.

The funny thing is, you are mostly middle class american/european kids stillliving with you parents, with ideals based on incomplete information and a gross lack of the real-world experience.

Your lack of appreciation for history's greatest empire is indicative of your lack of overall knowlegde of the same.

[Mazdak]

CI, we didnt win WW2, the Soviets did.

[Anonymous]

(Edited by Dark Capitalist at 1:59 am on Sep. 14, 2002)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Mazdak on 8:54 pm on Sep. 13, 2002
CI, we didnt win WW2, the Soviets did.


God you are stupid, Mazdak. Who led d-day? The USA. Historians will tell you that this was the definitive swing in WWII, it is what liberated nazi europe. Also, the battle of the buldge was led by the US, and the 8th air force was instrumaental in its contribution to defeating the axis powers.

BTW,where was russia when we were fighting Japan? Nowhere!

Your stalinist loyalities are blinding you to reality.

Besides, the russians didn't defeat hitler as much as the russian winter did.

Oh, did I mention that the soviets were using american planes a lot of the time?

The soviets won WWII, that is funny, very funny. Maybe they contributed in eastern europe, but without D-Day, they would have been another colony of the Nazi regime.

[canikickit]

This thread is retarded

[Brian]

U.S and Britain and a few smaller conutries did 89% of the fighting in WWII.Also T-34 was a piece of trash,a T-34 usually lasted only 5 days in combat.German tanks were better amoured and they had last a hell lot longer.The only thing that really save the Soviet Union's ass was the Russian winter like CI pointed out.

[Mazdak]

lmao, Dday? The tide of teh war was turned at Stalingrad, not Normandy. It is a known fact. You are just to ashamed to admit Stalin was Hitler's downfall, not the US. The Soviets were already marching through eastern Europe when D-Day took place.

[Guest]

I don't think the Soviet Union could have defeated Nazi Germany all by its self with out Britain or the U.S.

[Capitalist Imperial]

You are in denial, Mazdak, and I ask again, who was the only force to fight in 2 theatres, 1 all by themselves?

The USA

We fought with the allies in europe, and took on japan by ourselves!

where was russia, or anyone for that matter,in the pacific?

[Guest]

Quote: from Guest on 11:05 pm on Sep. 13, 2002
I don't think the Soviet Union could have defeated Nazi Germany all by its self with out Britain or the U.S.


You took the words right out of my mouth.

[Brian]

Actually Australia fough in the pacific against Japan and so did China.

(Edited by Brian at 5:09 pm on Sep. 13, 2002)

[j]

This is a very tough thread. I think that we need to put 9/11 in perspective. It was a terrible, horrible attack on US civilians. But I think the point was that the US is responsible for the deliberate attack on civilians of other countries. CI, that is what people are saying. Because the attackers were not trained military of a country actually matters? When the US bombs another country with its army and kills 3,000 civilians it is OK, but when civilians kill 3,000 civilians it is not OK? That doesn't make any sense.

I am not generally anti-war. I believe it has its place among people who know they are at war and are trained to fight that war and acknowledge the risk. One civilian death is worth a ton more than one soldier death. The soldier accepts the fact that he could die as a requirement of his job.

CI were the following US military actions "just and against an armed enemy?":

Beirut 1985--truck bomb ignited outside a mosque timed to explode when the people were leaving the church. 80 people died.

Sudan, 1998--Al-shifa pharmecuetical company bombed resulting in denial of medications to the people. Perhaps tens of thousands suffered or died as a result.

These are just two examples of civilian targets. While the US has many things that are positive, the negatives outweigh it. The general population does not know what our government is doing in our name.

Also, when the US invaded Afganistan to dethrone the Taliban they cut off valuable roads that supplied food to the Afgan people. The food drops were merely a media ploy and the cutting off of the roads caused many to starve.

j

[Mazdak]

Hey guest, dont flatter yourself. That has to be the most arrogant thing ever.

I am not in denial. The US only entered thanks to neglect at Pearl Harbor. And with all our superiority? LMAO. the SOviet union would have attacked Japan eventually as well, but Germany and italy had to be dealt with. The Soveits won the war, not the US. It is that simple.

[Brian]

Germany, Italy, Japan, invading the Soviet Unuion all together they could have crushed the Soviets like crushing a coke can.Japan had gaven the Russians a whipping in 1905 and they would have again.


I suggest you get out of 'Soviets Are Unbeatable' mode and start understanding the context of the second world war.


(Edited by Brian at 6:41 pm on Sep. 13, 2002)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Mazdak on 12:02 am on Sep. 14, 2002
Hey guest, dont flatter yourself. That has to be the most arrogant thing ever.


You are full of it, dude.
I am not in denial. The US only entered thanks to neglect at Pearl Harbor. And with all our superiority? LMAO. the SOviet union would have attacked Japan eventually as well, but Germany and italy had to be dealt with. The Soveits won the war, not the US. It is that simple.

[American Kid]

I wish we'd sent in ground troops in Afganistan.

[Brian]

Mazdak has very poor understanding of the context of the second world war.


Also as I may add, The Red Army raped about half of Berlin's women population and also the picture of the Soviet flag waving over Berlin is staged.

(Edited by Brian at 7:04 pm on Sep. 13, 2002)

[American Kid]

I agree. And he's very young and angry.

At-----everything. Poor kid. Have you guys seen his picture in the "Me" thread over in Chit Chat?

I think I have his lunch money in my back pocket.
-AK

[guerrillaradio]

11/9 was a humane tragedy. The death of any 3,000 people is. And ultimately, the world is a much worse place for it.

During the minute's silence, me and my mates rolled a joint and got stoned. (In fact, I spent the vast majority of that day stoned. College was fun.... :)) It wasn't so much an anti-American thing, I just felt that I didn't need to participate in a silence to show my condolences. I have spent enough of the last 12 months thinking about 11/9 and its immediate and longterm consequences.

[Mazdak]

Actually no, lunch money? I am afraid i am a bit too cheap to ever buy lunch. I generally get whatever scraps wont cost me anything.

Poor understanding? I cant believe you idiots think the US was so important to WW2! The Russo Japanese war was not fought by ther Soveits, it was fought by a declining Empire(The russian empire).

And AK,
http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/upload/shut_the_fuck_up.gif

[MaxB]

The problem with these left wingers is that they're stii angry and resentful for the collapse of the Iron Curtain.
Russia, Eastern Europe, even Mainland China are moving towards Capitalism and these sanctimonious, nihilist fulls think Socialism works. That's right idiots; keep on revising and reclassifying your failures. HA-HA-HA
I LOVE THE DECADENCE OF CAPITALISM

[Mazdak]

you asked for it

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/upload/shut_the_fuck_up.gif

I think you need one of those too.

[Brian]

Mazdak, you have a very poor understanding of the context of the second world war if you think the Soviets did everything.

[Mazdak]

I dont think they did EVERYTHING, just 80% of it. you think the French Resistance would have meant of pinch of shit wwithout the soviets pressuring Germany from the East? You know how badly DDay would have failed if Germany had all its troops available to defend normandy? The Soviets did more then the americans. And to say the americans won is idiotic. The British and Canadians also participated and Australians helped fight in the pacific. the US won in japan because it dropped two atom bombs on japan. And any real threat the axis could have been was wiped out after Hitler committed suicide and tojo was killed.

[Brian]

80%? I would like to know where you got this fact.

[Frosty]

Quote: from MaxB on 6:13 pm on Sep. 14, 2002
The problem with these left wingers is that they're stii angry and resentful for the collapse of the Iron Curtain.
Russia, Eastern Europe, even Mainland China are moving towards Capitalism and these sanctimonious, nihilist fulls think Socialism works. That's right idiots; keep on revising and reclassifying your failures. HA-HA-HA
I LOVE THE DECADENCE OF CAPITALISM

Oh yeah, ABSOLUTELY ALL leftist think stalinism and maoism is GREAT GREAT GREAT!

Why can't you just shut up instead of writing such ignorant bullshit?

"I LOVE THE DECADENCE OF CAPITALISM"
are you just trying to sound retarded?

[Capitalist Imperial]

Come on, Mazdak, stop lying

80%? The invalidity of that claim speaks for itself

"You know how badly DDay would have failed if Germany had all its troops available to defend normandy?"

Any predicted result in that scenario would be conjecture at best, besides, one could say the same abbout all of the axis forces being available to attack the eastern front

"The Soviets did more then the americans."

This is just not true. Historians and documents will support that the USA was the leader in liberating Nazi Europe. And what attcks they did carry out was with US made B-25's) (after WWII, the soviets stole 3 US B-29's and reverse-engineered them, creating the 1st Soviet strategic bomber. Without stealing the American design, they were unable to make one ofd their own.)

"The British and Canadians also participated and Australians helped fight in the pacific."

Somewhat, but they did not have a presence in the pacific like the US had in Europe. In europe, we were equal partners, we had a full committment there. In tha pacific, it was more like we were taking care of japan by ourselves with minimal supplements from australia, UK,and china. And most of the help was for logistical or staging purposes.

The war in the pacific was an engagement of US Navy/aircraft and Imperial Japaneze Navy/ aircraft almost exclusively. The difference was that while we were starving the pacific to fight in europe, japan was not present in europe, so they could dedicate their entire war effort to fighting an already stressed pacific american force.

So how, Mazdak, do you contend that the soviets did more, when we fought in 2 theatres fully, the only nation to do so, while leading normandy (the d-day invasion), battle of the buldge, daytime bombing operations (more dangerous than night raids), and fought the entire pacific war?

all while providing russia with the only aircraft worth anything

(Edited by Capitalist Imperial at 10:18 pm on Sep. 14, 2002)


(Edited by Capitalist Imperial at 10:19 pm on Sep. 14, 2002)

[Brian]

Hitler made many mistakes on D-Day, he should have left the Panzer's under the command of Rommel (aka Desert Fox) insted of himself.He made many other errors through out WWII.Hitler was a great politician and very smart but a shitty military strategist.

Hitler should have left the militarty stratgey to his generals who knew what they were doing.

(Edited by Brian at 4:50 pm on Sep. 14, 2002)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Wasn't the desert fox's name "Rommel"?

[Frosty]

Yep, Erwin(?) Rommel

[Brian]

Your right CI, it is 'Rommel'.Thanks for pointing that out. :)

If Hitler would have attacked the Soviet Union between Oct. '39 and April '40 instead of wasting that time during the Sitzkrieg the Soviets would have been in worse shape then than they were in 1941.Hitler would have won if he had invaded during that time and have taken Moscow.

(Edited by Brian at 4:59 pm on Sep. 14, 2002)

[Mazdak]

I made up the figure, it was an exagerration, so to speak. The Americans had to rush to berlin because they wanted to meet the soviets tot take credit themselves. I am not going to admit otherwise. The Soveits bore the brunt of the war, even my ultra conservative right wing teacher said it.

And Brian, i dont know when you suddenly became so political/historically knowledgeable.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Mazdak on 11:33 pm on Sep. 14, 2002
I made up the figure, it was an exagerration, so to speak. The Americans had to rush to berlin because they wanted to meet the soviets tot take credit themselves. I am not going to admit otherwise. The Soveits bore the brunt of the war, even my ultra conservative right wing teacher said it.

And Brian, i dont know when you suddenly became so political/historically knowledgeable.

Well, I just gave a rational explanation and made a great case for the US, while you just state to maintain your stance after admitting exaggeration of at least one of your arguements.

Whatever, thats fine, continue living in denial Mazdak.

No wonder the Soviets had to steal so much of our technology and eventually lost the cold war to the USA.

[Mazdak]

Did we defeat the million man army hitler sent into the soviet union? (i believe it was probably even larger). No. We did not. We never fought against odds like that.

You are saying the Australians never sent troops to aid the US? You would be wrong iif you did.

Your logic is the biased logic of an extreme conservative, which is why i cant see you making many rational explanations.

[Brian]

Actually there are many reasons the Soviets won, Hitler was doing the stragtey, he should have left that to his generals like Stalin did.The Russian winter pushed back the German advancement far more then the Red Army its self.

[Pinko]

There are some huge misconceptions about WW2 here.

The T-34 was a great tank. Upon entering Russia, Germany had nothing that would touch its armour from further than 50 yards. Unfortunately the Russian tank crew were so badly trained that the German armour could get that close.

The US did not take Japan by itself. Japan spread west as well as east. The British, Dutch, French and Chinese, and Australians all had a hand in the Pacific war. Europe still had many interests in the region at the time.
The US was not the only country fighting in two theatres.

Russia probably would have been able to beat Germany on its own, given time. True it was the harsh Russian winter that stopped the Germans from reaching Moscow in the first year. However as the war dragged on the elite nature of German troops remained the same and the training of the Russians only improved. Also the Russian war machine could out-produce Germany greatly. Hitler himself refused to believe intelegence from several reliable sources that Russia could produce significantly more tanks per month than Germany.
Also, Germany was running out of adult men to throw into the field, Russia had not even got close to that stage.
Russia would have won in a war of attrition in the end.

Germany was already on the run by the time the US joined the war. The Africa campaign was crushed and Rommel disgraced in the eyes of Hitler (he was put to work on the relatively low priority of fortifying the northern coast of Europe, which he did admirably).
The Italian campaign was hastened by the US but not made conclusive by any stretch of the imagination.
The real difference the US made was in bombing runs, over strategic and civilian targets. The contribution to D-Day was a big one but military analysts from most sides agree it could have been done on a smaller scale without them, this would have essentially been a holding action whilst Russia plowed in from behind.

The Russian airforce, contrary to popular belief was mostly of Russian make. Their airforce however, was not a significant factor as they were horribly outclassed by the Luftwaffe. Stories abound of Russian fighter squadrons flying in circles to cover each others tails when anything as much as a spotter was sighted in their skies. German air superiority was diverted into Europe though where the need was deemed greater (another of Hitler's decisions that was against sound military counsel).
Most Russian staff cars were donated by the US.

It is estimated that 70-80% of Germany's war-time casualties were suffered on the eastern front. Many sources put this figure higher, but I tend to err of the conservative side when quoting figures. So depending how you define fighting Mazdak if kinda correct.
Also the battle of Stalingrad (and to some extent the failed assault on Moscow) broke the illusion the the Wehrmark were unbeatable, this was their first major defeat and it damaged their moral whilst boosting the moral of the allies.
Russian efforts in WW2 were played down considerably during the cold war.

Ultimately, all of the allies won the war together. Everyone played their part, some more than others, but everyone who joined in helped. Instead of barking on like little dogs claiming the right to be the winner, why don't you just acknowlege that it was the join effort it was.
If you can't, then read some bloody history, this thread is so full of '40s wartime propaganda that it is starting to restrict movement. I suggest reading accounts from all sides and choose a middle ground as the truth, no side is portraying the truth about the history of WW2. It was full of uncountable and unrecognised heroic deeds and atrocities on every side.
Have some bloody respect for the dead and stop squabbling over their bleaching bones.

(Edited by Pinko at 6:59 am on Sep. 15, 2002)

[Pinko]

http://www.battlefield.ru/library/battles/pics/volga5.jpg


What the hell all this has to do with the 11th of September aniversary, I have no idea.

[Guest]

Do the people touting the Soviet Union's invincibility even realize that the Soviet Union is dead and buried? People, the thing collapsed in 1991, it has been 11 years, by the dog!

[Brian]

In my eyes the Red Army was a cowardly rapist infested group of pigs.The Soviets rapped 2,000,000 German women in Berlin and they got away with it, the women rapped aged from 70 to 10.Even Soviet officers engured there troops to harm German civilians.

At least German soldiers that harmed civilians were executed or kicked out of the military unlike the Soviets were they got away with rap and murder.40,000 German Wehrmacht were executed for harming civilians on the Eastern Front.


(Edited by Brian at 7:55 pm on Sep. 19, 2002)

[Mazdak]

Oh, the wehrmacht was so great. It took care NEVER to kill civilians right brian?

[Brian]

Actaully the Wehrmacht were probably the best fighting force in Europe.I rather support an army that has civil morals unlike the Red Army which leaves a trail of rap and murder where every it goes.

(Edited by Brian at 1:01 am on Sep. 20, 2002)