Stateless?

[Post-Something]

Ok, I just have a couple questions which are probably really blindingly obvious, but I just want to ask them now so I understand how exactly a stateless society would work before I get really serious. This sites been incredibly informative for me, and it has really struck a chord, so thanks so much for that. But I still have a couple issues that I want cleared up:


1. I assume that there can only be a stateless society when all people essentially take part in politics, there is real democracy, and the whole world is communist?

Well, how exactly would you still manage democracy like that on a global scale without representative democracy?

How do you stop an "organization" attempting to take control of the situation, and acting as a world government?

2. What happens to countries when communism is established? Do all borders just diminish into a global community?

3. How is law an order worked out in a communist society exactly?

4. Somebody should explain the dictatorship of the proletariat to me; how do we make sure that history does not repeat itself and make sure that the power remains in the hands of the workers? I'm really unclear on the idea of socialism. So far I've got:

It's a stage between the legacy system and communism whereby a state is implemented to condition people into a socialist way of life and thinking. The state is somehow also run by the proletariat at the same time (ok, here I'm really muddled, somebody should explain how the dichotomy between state and people can still be overcome when goals like that are implemented) and somehow this will be dismantled because of the rising levels of participation in politics??

5. How does a socialist society protect against this rising globalisation?

6. How do you plan to combat cultural hegemony?

7. In a capitalist society, if you destroy somebody's property, then you are going to be punished. What about in a communist society? If everybody owns everything, do people communally decide the punishment or something? Is there anything to protect the individual?

8. I'm really just unsure about how things would be run in a stateless society. If people are allowed to work in whatever field they want, how do you know who needs to do what? Wouldn't you need some social structure to run all of this?

9. How do you safeguard against socialism becoming undemocratic, and essentially a dictatorship?


Mainly I just want to know how exactly you would make sure that socialism was ALWAYS there for the benefit of the proletariat, how a stateless society would run, and how in Gods name you plan this to come about in this day in age when communisms' name has been marred so much and capitalism is so global.


Thanks in advance!

[TheDevil'sApprentice]

This is the best overview of the details of how a stateless socialist society could be organised that I've come across:

www infoshop.org/faq/secIcon.html

[Kropotesta]

1. I assume that there can only be a stateless society when all people essentially take part in politics, there is real democracy, and the whole world is communist?

Well, how exactly would you still manage democracy like that on a global scale without representative democracy?
Federalism with a confederation of communes.


How do you stop an "organization" attempting to take control of the situation, and acting as a world government?

Well for a stateless society to be used, it has to have a majority wanting the idea, preferably, so I don't think anyone will be to happy about that being set up and resistance be rife. Also, do you really think that people who fought against capitalism and state would really let others recreate what they opposed freely?


2. What happens to countries when communism is established? Do all borders just diminish into a global community?
Ideally the world would go communist around the same time. So, yes.


3. How is law an order worked out in a communist society exactly?
However the commune would vote. I would have thought 're-education' and such would take vast precedence than punishment though.


4. Somebody should explain the dictatorship of the proletariat to me; how do we make sure that history does not repeat itself and make sure that the power remains in the hands of the workers? I'm really unclear on the idea of socialism
Avoid centralisation, free soviets as it were.


5. How does a socialist society protect against this rising globalisation?
International revolution destorying capitalism.


6. How do you plan to combat cultural hegemony?
Agitation and strong organisations.


7. In a capitalist society, if you destroy somebody's property, then you are going to be punished. What about in a communist society? If everybody owns everything, do people communally decide the punishment or something? Is there anything to protect the individual?
covered in question three.


8. I'm really just unsure about how things would be run in a stateless society. If people are allowed to work in whatever field they want, how do you know who needs to do what? Wouldn't you need some social structure to run all of this?
Syndicates would organise and advertise if they need fellow workers.


9. How do you safeguard against socialism becoming undemocratic, and essentially a dictatorship?
No centralisation. Communites communicating and running what needs to be done via 'face to face' democracy.

[Post-Something]

Federalism with a confederation of communes.

So, is there a constitution? Who does everyone have to answer to?



Well for a stateless society to be used, it has to have a majority wanting the idea, preferably, so I don't think anyone will be to happy about that being set up and resistance be rife. Also, do you really think that people who fought against capitalism and state would really let others recreate what they opposed freely?

Yeah, just lie to them. In amongst all the "workers of the world unite", you could slip in anything.

What exactly is a vanguard party and what role does it play? Is it some sort of organization that coordinates the revolution? They could quite easily get power hungry couldn't they? Unless there is some sort of safeguard against that, and that's what I'm asking.



Ideally the world would go communist around the same time. So, yes.

That just won't happen. Realistically. Why didn't the US change when they saw the Russian revolution? They most definitely won't nowadays.

Anyway, say we actually manage to get a country in the first world to get to socialism; then what? We just wait for everyone else in the world? For like 500 years?



However the commune would vote. I would have thought 're-education' and such would take vast precedence than punishment though.

Is there anything that protects the individual from the majority? Any notion of "human rights" apart from economic? Or would this already be abolished?



International revolution destorying capitalism.

Capitalist countries would destroy any country that looked truly revolutionary as soon as it came into existence. We would get squashed before we even got a chance.



Agitation and strong organisations.

Can you explain?

[Kropotesta]

So, is there a constitution? Who does everyone have to answer to?
It's up to the commune if they would like their own constitution.





Yeah, just lie to them. In amongst all the "workers of the world unite", you could slip in anything.

What exactly is a vanguard party and what role does it play? Is it some sort of organization that coordinates the revolution? They could quite easily get power hungry couldn't they? Unless there is some sort of safeguard against that, and that's what I'm asking.
You were refering to directly to a stateless society though. I am opposed to vanguardism.


That just won't happen. Realistically. Why didn't the US change when they saw the Russian revolution? They most definitely won't nowadays.
Read some theory.
http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secJ7.html

Anyway, say we actually manage to get a country in the first world to get to socialism; then what? We just wait for everyone else in the world? For like 500 years?
I'm not a state socialist, so I will wait for someone else address this.





Is there anything that protects the individual from the majority? Any notion of "human rights" apart from economic? Or would this already be abolished?
to protect from what sorta stuff?





Capitalist countries would destroy any country that looked truly revolutionary as soon as it came into existence. We would get squashed before we even got a chance.
So you are not a revolutionary?
That is also an arguement for international revolution.


Can you Explain?
The propaganda aimed at the promotion of class conciousness and revolutionary ideas, along with a strong organisation with willing to apply the propaganda they preach.

[Post-Something]

It's up to the commune if they would like their own constitution.

What if a commune decides to become capitalist? Who do they have to answer to? What is there that prevents them from doing so?



Read some theory.
http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secJ7.html

What I was saying is now with all the mass media and the huge grip on the country that the US government has, it will be infinitely harder than it was back in the early 1900's. The working class are more patriotic than Bush himself.




to protect from what sorta stuff?

Having a fair trial, protection from torture, you know the usual...




So you are not a revolutionary?
That is also an arguement for international revolution.

No, I'm just saying that realistically, we wouldn't be allowed to get very far with the international community sitting by.


The propaganda aimed at the promotion of class conciousness and revolutionary ideas, along with a strong organisation with willing to apply the propaganda they preach.


Yeah, but that will never be enough when things like the mass media are still such potent ways of creating a false class consciousness.

[Kropotesta]

What if a commune decides to become capitalist? Who do they have to answer to? What is there that prevents them from doing so?
Nothing if that is what the people want and it does not encroach on other communes. However after fighting revolution against capitalism is that really going to happen?



What I was saying is now with all the mass media and the huge grip on the country that the US government has, it will be infinitely harder than it was back in the early 1900's. The working class are more patriotic than Bush himself.
No-one said it was going to be easy.



Having a fair trial, protection from torture, you know the usual...
Well a council would mostly be organised to make sure exploitation isn't taking place.



No, I'm just saying that realistically, we wouldn't be allowed to get very far with the international community sitting by.
OK then, what do you suggest? Also heavyhandedness on revolutionaries peacefully organising could attract potenial comrades to the cause and highlight the fearsome underbelly of the state- so in a way propaganda by deed.



Yeah, but that will never be enough when things like the mass media are still such potent ways of creating a false class consciousness.
As I said it won't be easy. We're working to a complete social revolution in all aspects of life. Also, alot of people are far less consumed by media than you seem to give them credit for.

[Post-Something]

Nothing if that is what the people want and it does not encroach on other communes. However after fighting revolution against capitalism is that really going to happen?

And what if it does encroach on other communes? We all go to war against that one commune?

Alright, fair enough, let's just hope it turns out that way then.


Well a council would mostly be organised to make sure exploitation isn't taking place.

Who is it accountable to? Don't you need a central body for these things? Sorry, I'm trying to get my head around the idea of a government, but I just can't imagine not having a central body that plans and organizes operations. It's just so integral to everyday life that it's hard to imagine an alternative.



OK then, what do you suggest? Also heavyhandedness on revolutionaries peacefully organising could attract potenial comrades to the cause and highlight the fearsome underbelly of the state- so in a way propaganda by deed.

What do I suggest? I have no idea. That's what I've been asking; how on earth do we convince people that this is the way forward when they have been told different for so long. And the horrible thing is that the working class tend to be the most nationalist of all.


As I said it won't be easy. We're working to a complete social revolution in all aspects of life. Also, alot of people are far less consumed by media than you seem to give them credit for.


Hey, maybe you're right, I'm just saying most people already have an idea formed in their mind when you mention communism. Unfortunately we're not starting on a clean slate.

[Niccolò Rossi]

I'll give it a crack aswell;


Well, how exactly would you still manage democracy like that on a global scale without representative democracy?


Representative democracy is a necessary evil in cases such as this. When it is necessary delegates must be democratically elected and paid no more than a “working persons wage”.


How do you stop an "organization" attempting to take control of the situation, and acting as a world government?I'm not too sure what you mean by the question. Remember that in any socialist or communist society, where representative democracy would necessary for practical reasons, the delegates would be democratically elected, recallable at any moment and -during socialism - paid no more than a "working persons wage".


2. What happens to countries when communism is established? Do all borders just diminish into a global community? Yes


3. How is law an order worked out in a communist society exactly? In a class society many of the modern day motives for criminal activity will have been abolished with sufficient resources, facilities and education provision to ensure a high standard of living. This acts to help destroy the roots of crime itself.

However this is not to say that crime is non-existent. There will of course be some cases where individuals do engage in criminal activity. When this is the case it is the task of all members of society to act in a manner to prevent crime for the common good. This may include what would today be called vigilantism. Further, particularly in a socialist society, there must be peoples' militias formed which is composed of workers and community members (not full time “cops”) on a part-time and rotated basis which are democratically run and whose members are recallable at any moment.


Somebody should explain the dictatorship of the proletariat to me; how do we make sure that history does not repeat itself and make sure that the power remains in the hands of the workers? I'm really unclear on the idea of socialism. So far I've got:

It's a stage between the legacy system and communism whereby a state is implemented to condition people into a socialist way of life and thinking. The state is somehow also run by the proletariat at the same time (ok, here I'm really muddled, somebody should explain how the dichotomy between state and people can still be overcome when goals like that are implemented) and somehow this will be dismantled because of the rising levels of participation in politics?? OK, here your really confused. The dictatorship of the proletariat is a funny term and it tossed around a lot in a confusing manner.

Let us understand the term dictatorship first. It was originally a term used to denote a political office in the Roman Republic where a “dictator” could be granted absolute authority in time of emergency. This absolute power was however temporary, at it's longest lasting for a period of six months.


This temporary nature is essential to the term “dictatorship of the proletariat”, namely in that this phase is a temporary stage toward communism.


The other sense of the word in which dictatorship is used is as an absolute rule. During the period of the dictatorship of the proletariat, the proletariat must form itself as the state, using this power(as will all forms of state) to ensure the class rule of the proletariat and crush any bourgeois resistance.


So, the dictatorship of the proletariat is simply the time period during which the proletariat use state power (the state being a proletarian state) to mediate the existing class war (note the existence of classes still) in the interests of the proletariat in order to progress toward a communist society. It has nothing to do with a party-state ruling over and in the name of the proletariat to “condition it”.


5. How does a socialist society protect against this rising globalisation? Protect against globalisation!? Any individual who calls themselves a “socialist” ought to be a staunch internationalist.


6. How do you plan to combat cultural hegemony? The answer to this question is highly variable depending on your locality and the state of affairs there. Generally speaking it would involve education, radicalisation and agitation on a mass scale to bring about class consciousness.


7. In a capitalist society, if you destroy somebody's property, then you are going to be punished. What about in a communist society? In a society of super-abundance why would you want to destroy the property of others? That is lunacy.



If everybody owns everything, do people communally decide the punishment or something? That sounds fair. Public whole community trials would certainly be an option.



Is there anything to protect the individual? Yes, you!


8. I'm really just unsure about how things would be run in a stateless society. If people are allowed to work in whatever field they want, how do you know who needs to do what? Wouldn't you need some social structure to run all of this? A communist society does still involve organisation and administration, however this task is performed collectively.


9. How do you safeguard against socialism becoming undemocratic, and essentially a dictatorship? All delegates must be paid no more than a “working persons wage” and must be immediately recallable. It is also essential for the masses to bear arms. If any democratic delegate is to act in any way that the proletariat democratically disagree with, they must be removed whether this be on peaceful terms or violent.



Mainly I just want to know how exactly you would make sure that socialism was ALWAYS there for the benefit of the proletariat By having the proletariat lead.



how a stateless society would run We should avoid trying to prefigure the future. We don't establish utopia's and then go about making them realities. It is through our actions as the proletariat that we are able to establish a communist society, I see little need in trying to conjure up pretty images for such a future though.



How in Gods name you plan this to come about in this day in age when communisms' name has been marred so much and capitalism is so global. Start talking!

[Kropotesta]

And what if it does encroach on other communes? We all go to war against that one commune?

Alright, fair enough, let's just hope it turns out that way then.
Then the other communes will formulate a plan of action.


Who is it accountable to? Don't you need a central body for these things? Sorry, I'm trying to get my head around the idea of a government, but I just can't imagine not having a central body that plans and organizes operations. It's just so integral to everyday life that it's hard to imagine an alternative.
I don't see how this is hard to understand? If anything wouldn't a neutral non-central body be better for such activities?



What do I suggest? I have no idea. That's what I've been asking; how on earth do we convince people that this is the way forward when they have been told different for so long. And the horrible thing is that the working class tend to be the most nationalist of all.
Therefore you have/are under the same influences and messages as everyone else, yet you are here posting and enquiring, as are many others.


Hey, maybe you're right, I'm just saying most people already have an idea formed in their mind when you mention communism. Unfortunately we're not starting on a clean slate.
You, I would have presumed, were also given a negative description of communism, I have. So therefore it is only rational that others can overstep these barriers. Thus propaganda needs to be used to gain influence within the working class, backed by a strong federation organisation.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

What if a commune decides to become capitalist? Who do they have to answer to? What is there that prevents them from doing so?

So long as they're not interfering in others' affairs, they would probably be left alone. Few people start their own feudalist compound; capitalism would follow material extinction as socialism would make it unattractive.