Why do people burn the flag?

[Field Marshal]

Why do you see people burn the American flag, and not the constitution of the United States? They both stand for freedom right, or do they? What difference in meaning does the flag have with the Constitution?

I'm asking these questions based off a discussion I had with my English teacher when I told him that people should hang up the constitution and not the flag for patriotism.

[canikickit]

The flag is a symbol of America. It is also much easier to get your hands on one and more impressive looking than a piece of paper.

I disagree with hanging up the constitution, or rather with not hanging up the flag. Flag are representitive of something. i.e. the fifty states and the first thirteen.

[antieverything]

I love the constitution. It is a symbol of freedom, a document outlining our rights...of course the government doesn't follow the constitution, that is the problem.

The flag is a symbol that has been hijacked by the ruling class. Revolutionaries don't accept the flag as our own, it is a symbol of everything we hate. Not freedom.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from antieverything on 1:51 am on Sep. 10, 2002
I love the constitution. It is a symbol of freedom, a document outlining our rights...of course the government doesn't follow the constitution, that is the problem.

The flag is a symbol that has been hijacked by the ruling class. Revolutionaries don't accept the flag as our own, it is a symbol of everything we hate. Not freedom.

What he means is, most americans like and accept the flag, besides a few misguided individuals

[Nateddi]

Antieverything,

what is your opinion on the 5th ammedment?

[canikickit]

I was not refering to the American flag, it is not important to me (with all due respect to those of you find it important). I don't really think the American flag has been hijacked.

[RedCeltic]

people put too much value on fabric.

[Field Marshal]

what else does the flag stand for though?

I talked to a person who said it was for patriotism. Well, when does the government need patriotism? During a time of war that's when. They need people to shut up and pick up a flag. The flag is used excessivley and flamboyantly during times of war. It can't be a symbol of freedom because when the flags come up, the mouths shut up. It's a symbol needed for the government's wars against others and even it's own people (ie War on Drugs). People see this flag as a sort of relic or religious symbol that is worshipped. It's quite sickening how I see people with these flags enshrouding their minds and their beliefs.

The constitution is the symbol of the country, the flag is (presently) the symbol used by the government.

Any thoughts from the anti-war thinkers?

[Pinko]

Burning of flags generally represents your desire to do the same to the country it represents.

Flags in nationalist nations (the US especially) give everyone something to look to in times of need. The origin of flags and standards is as rallying points. It marks the centre of your army, if it is taken then the battle is generally lost. Similarly with national flags, it is a rallying symbol of the people, something they all have in common dispite their differences. The waving of flags is a symbol of unity and nationalism, one country united under one flag. It is a symbol of solidarity and unity mostly.

Burning it is exactly that, the destruction of the bond of unity between all of its peoples.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 1:57 am on Sep. 10, 2002

Quote: from antieverything on 1:51 am on Sep. 10, 2002
I love the constitution. It is a symbol of freedom, a document outlining our rights...of course the government doesn't follow the constitution, that is the problem.

The flag is a symbol that has been hijacked by the ruling class. Revolutionaries don't accept the flag as our own, it is a symbol of everything we hate. Not freedom.

What he means is, most americans like and accept the flag, besides a few misguided individuals



CI get this through your fucking head everyone who doesn't agree with you isn't misguided.

I'm sure you don't agree with everything the US government has done...yet you approve of the government...but by your standards doesn't that make them misguided?

[Xvall]

What he means is, most americans like and accept the flag, besides a few misguided individuals

Who are you to decide what is minsguided? Do you assume the minority is misguided? Then you are, because your country is the only one who thinks that America is the land of freedom.

As far as flag burning goes; I don't waste my time. Buying the flag and lighter would only be supporting some Yankee corporation.

[El Chancho]

I"m just gonna express my views on America. Let's make the worlds profit into a piece of pie. The U.S wants the biggest piece of the pie, while Leftist countries would rather have everyone sharing an equal piece of the pie. But, if anyone starts to get a bigger piece of the pie, the U.S exterminates them, therefore, as long as we're like this, the U.S will always want a bigger piece of the pie, rather than sharing.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from El Chancho on 1:57 am on Sep. 11, 2002
I"m just gonna express my views on America. Let's make the worlds profit into a piece of pie. The U.S wants the biggest piece of the pie, while Leftist countries would rather have everyone sharing an equal piece of the pie. But, if anyone starts to get a bigger piece of the pie, the U.S exterminates them, therefore, as long as we're like this, the U.S will always want a bigger piece of the pie, rather than sharing.


while I agree with the majority of what you said there are two problems

1. with the exception of the cappies we all know this already

2. how does this show how you feel about flag burning

not that I want to sound like an asshole but.....

[El Chancho]

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 8:01 pm on Sep. 10, 2002

Quote: from El Chancho on 1:57 am on Sep. 11, 2002
I"m just gonna express my views on America. Let's make the worlds profit into a piece of pie. The U.S wants the biggest piece of the pie, while Leftist countries would rather have everyone sharing an equal piece of the pie. But, if anyone starts to get a bigger piece of the pie, the U.S exterminates them, therefore, as long as we're like this, the U.S will always want a bigger piece of the pie, rather than sharing.


while I agree with the majority of what you said there are two problems

1. with the exception of the cappies we all know this already

2. how does this show how you feel about flag burning

not that I want to sound like an asshole but..... It doesn't show how I feel about flag burning, so I might as well say it now. Flag burning is a way to express hatred for that country, and I'll leave it at that. I'm for flag burning because it's an expression.

[Sasafrás]

I may get "cyber-jumped-on" for this, but I really don't give a rat's scrotum (I saw one today, by the way, and it is really huge!) about it.

I've never burned a flag, not even the US flag and, I never will. Even though I do not completely agree with the United States or what it stands for, I just feel it is completely disrespectful to burn the flag and I guess I feel the same about the consitution, but probably not as passionately. I think that no matter what, I wouldn't burn a symbol of something as big as a nation or government. I don't play with fire. It's not safe. Plus, I just don't see burning a flag as being a constructive way of expressing your opposition. You don't go in-depth about why you think there should be a change, you just sit back and watch a star spangled banner go up in flames. What is the point? Go do something, speak your mind in a public forum, print flyers, try to run for a public office and work to change the way things are run, etc. but don't sit around and scream obscenities and burn a fucking piece of cloth. That's not making a change. Jesus Christ...

God, I get so upset about things like this..

Bye,

La Rain

[El Chancho]

Why do you get upset over it, like you said, it's just burning a piece of cloth.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from El Chancho on 2:21 am on Sep. 11, 2002

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 8:01 pm on Sep. 10, 2002

Quote: from El Chancho on 1:57 am on Sep. 11, 2002
I"m just gonna express my views on America. Let's make the worlds profit into a piece of pie. The U.S wants the biggest piece of the pie, while Leftist countries would rather have everyone sharing an equal piece of the pie. But, if anyone starts to get a bigger piece of the pie, the U.S exterminates them, therefore, as long as we're like this, the U.S will always want a bigger piece of the pie, rather than sharing.


while I agree with the majority of what you said there are two problems

1. with the exception of the cappies we all know this already

2. how does this show how you feel about flag burning

not that I want to sound like an asshole but..... It doesn't show how I feel about flag burning, so I might as well say it now. Flag burning is a way to express hatred for that country, and I'll leave it at that. I'm for flag burning because it's an expression.


expression? I suppose ti can be veiwed as that.

Personally I could give a shit fuck the flag...fuck america who gives a damn.

Burning a flag is only a sign of disrespect it isn't getting us anywere.

To express my self I'd rather and change people's minds as opposed to burning a peice of cheap cloth like a maniac

[pastradamus]

The burning of that "piece of cloth" could land you in a lot of trouble comrade.

[Alejandro C]

I've always secretly agreed that it would be better symbolism to wash the flag than to burn it. Although both are very powerfull statements of disagreement. Think i'll go burn me one right now, then maybe put it out with soapy water. ha ha Ha HA!

[El Chancho]

Yeah, burning flags doesn't really get you anywhere, but it does get you noticed. In the Middle-East they always show the guys burning the flag, maybe it's a way to get more people that agree with you to group together.

[Sasafrás]

Quote: from pastradamus on 8:27 pm on Sep. 10, 2002
The burning of that "piece of cloth" could land you in a lot of trouble comrade.Damn real, pa..

And, El Chancho, I get upset because I just think of how idiotic it is to do it.. I see people burning the flag on television and I just want to get an AK and shoot them through their ears. They're so stupid, wasting their time..

[Lardlad95]

And by the same principle shayla...why do peoplesalute theflag? Do they think it makes them more free?

Everything regarding the flag is dumb

[pastradamus]

I agree,flags are there to unify people,not to encourage violence & hatred.

[El Chancho]

I remember on the news Iraqis burning American dollars, and I remember thinking to myself, how the hell did they get that dollar?


(Edited by El Chancho at 8:36 pm on Sep. 10, 2002)

[Sasafrás]

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 8:34 pm on Sep. 10, 2002
And by the same principle shayla...why do peoplesalute theflag? Do they think it makes them more free?

Everything regarding the flag is dumb
Yes, good point.

[pastradamus]

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 2:34 am on Sep. 11, 2002
And by the same principle shayla...why do peoplesalute theflag? Do they think it makes them more free?

Everything regarding the flag is dumb


Its called patriotism ;)
Its a way of showing respect.

Fucking fools.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from pastradamus on 2:41 am on Sep. 11, 2002

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 2:34 am on Sep. 11, 2002
And by the same principle shayla...why do peoplesalute theflag? Do they think it makes them more free?

Everything regarding the flag is dumb


Its called patriotism ;)
Its a way of showing respect.

Fucking fools.


no patriotism is killing afghan babies...according to bush :)

[pastradamus]

Haha,lol.

[antieverything]

I agree, I don't like flag burning. I would prefer to fly the US flag right along side the red banner. I prefer to see it as a symbol of the American people therefore I refuse to salute it as my allegiance is to God and through God to the entirety of the human race. I do, however, respect what the flag should mean but I want no part and no association with what the flag has now come to mean (patriotism, militance, conservatism and capitalism, imperialism, the freedom to exploit your fellow human). Because of this I refrain from aknowledging the flag at all. We should show our allegiance to what the flag is supposed to represent, not the flag itself...I show my allegiance to America (as a country is nothing more than its people and I can best serve humanity by serving America) by being politically active.

[Smoking Frog II]

Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! the flag.

[No Food Allowed]

Burning the flag is wasting material.

[RedCeltic]

Yea! They should drop them in Afghanistan so they can use them for clothing the very poor. ( which is everyone there..)

[Pinko]

Burning a flag is a way of sharing your hatred of a country that transcends the language barrier.

[Anonymous]

You can burn the flag but you can never destroy what it symbolizes.

[Xvall]

Greed, Corruption, and Imperialism?

[peaccenicked]

burning the flag is is the best way to get a light for your cigar.

Western decadence at its best!

[Anonymous]

I Pledge Allegiance to the Flag,
Of The United States of America,
And To The Republic, For Which It Stands,
One Nation Under God Indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all!

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/upload/american-flag.gif

[peaccenicked]

Just a shame you cant light up a screen. Nice flag though.
I pledge my allegience
TO THE CAUSE OF STOPPING YANKEE IMPERIALISM.
Play in your own backyard if you want to.

[PunkRawker677]

Dark Capitalist.. you made a few mistakes in the pledge.. didn't anyone inform you that its been altered a little?

I Pledge Allegiance to the Flag,
Of The United States of America,
And To The Bullshit, For Which It Will Fall,
One Nation Under God, Highly divided,
With Liberty and Justice for all with cash!

[Anonymous]

Funny, I thought they only removed "under God" from the pledge, which I might add you left in.

[suffianr]

Arrgghhhhh! Red, White and Blue...Oh no, it's t-t-t-too bright, filling up my scr...scree...screennn...ugh...help...epileptic seizure...no...no...no...send me back!!!!!

[Anonymous]

The thing is, if you burn a copy of the constitution you are more likely to burn your fingers than if you burn a flag with a big stick attached to it

[Fabi]

burning a flag is just wasted time...
like talking to people who wont listen...
like watching tv
like making music
like laughing
like sex....

it's just a way to use your time... why not burn a flag? if they take all your options away, if there is no good way to protest, why not burn a flag?

[Felicia]

Fabi,
You're back! YAY!!! :)

[Frosty]

I think washing the flag in very soapy water would be better...

Red, blue, white...just like in our flag...but here
red is for their victims' blood
white is for the superstition, racism and hypocriticism
blue is for the dictatorial, raw capitalist system

[Anonymous]

What about cutting the flag up and making chains of little dolls? Or origami? One minute flag, next swan

[Frosty]

Quote: from Funky Monk on 7:41 pm on Sep. 12, 2002
What about cutting the flag up and making chains of little dolls? Or origami? One minute flag, next swan
Swans are nice birds, i suggest cutting it into a chain of headless dolls
Hmmmm...maybe a fanclub...a friend of mine made paper dolls with pro- [insert person the paper fanclub is fan of] banners
:)

[Anonymous]

"The colors of the pales (the vertical stripes) are those used in the flag of the United States of America; White signifies purity and innocence, Red, hardiness and valour, and Blue, the color of the Chief (the broad band over the stripes) signifies vigilance, perseverance and justice." - Charles Thompson, Secretary of the Continental Congress, reporting to Congress on the Seal.


http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/upload/greatsealpix.gif

[Fabi]

omygodomygod... i got a great idea... use the flag as a doormat, so everybody who enters your place has to step on the flag... ;) ;)

felicia.... why are you so happy that i am back? it's a sign that my 'real' life must suck right now if i happen to waste my time posting here.... ;)

[Felicia]

Because of that thread you posted before, I was getting worried, I can't help it :)

[Guest]

the flag is not a symbol freedom, it is a symbol of U$ imperialism. america is not free. the youth is imprisoned. anarchy is true freedom.

"while there is a lower class I am in it, while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison I am not free"
-eugene v. debbs

No, we are not free. while our tinker and hazelwood rights are ignored in school, the land of the free is realy a hypocracy. I know this because I expierienced this. I havent even gotten to discusing about mink farms, the homophobia or degrading of womyn. We arent even getting into the racism in "our" country. Its built on the dead indiginous peoples driven from their homes and murdered.

-hXc petey

[Guest]

Oh, and I almost forgot:many of these american flags are made in third world countries (how american, huh) by childerenwho if they're lucky might get some thing to eat tonight. not to mention their prohibition of unions.
-petey

[antieverything]

What kind of free country would have laws against the general strike? Or even sympathy strikes?

[j]

The flag is merely a tool of creating unabashed patriotism and nationalism. Just like DC's post, folklore to make you proud of country and not actually question its actions. I don't burn the flag but I support the right to do it. As long as you are practicing fire saftey--who cares? Someone could burn a picture of Che in front of me--I don't care. What is that person proving? Nothing. They think they are making a statement, but, really, who the hell cares?

I think an upside down flag is much more a protest symbol. People will ask, "why is your flag upside?" then you can enlighten them. If you burn it, they think you're a wacko.

Patriotism is what we are fighting against. Blind patriotism leads us to support everything our leaders do and stop questioning. It's like that bumper sticker," I love my country, but fear my government."

j

[Field Marshal]

What would you tell people who ask about your upside down American flag, and why how it differs from the "right" American flag?

I think it's important to define the symbolism of this flag that so many Americans put so much value to. I hate American flag wavers, plain and simple. I ask people what they see in the flag and what they believe it is used for. I end up telling them the following and they change their views on the flag:

Our symbol of freedom is not the flag, but the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
The symbol of our strength is not the flag, but our Declaration of Independence.


The flag is only a symbol of our wars and our support of those wars. The government needs patriotism in time of war. When you wave that flag you are in support of the government's actions.

It reminds me of a book that I just finished called "Johnny Got His Gun" by Dalton Trumbo, an anti-war novel in which, the main character Joe, is in a hospital after World War 1. He has lost his arms, legs, nose (he has tubes maintain involuntary breathing), mouth (he can't speak, he has a tube in his stomach to feed him), hearing, and sight. He has lost everything but his mind and this one time he was saying,

"Come and look at yourself. You'll be like that (referring to his physical appearance) when you grow up to be great big strong men and women. You'll have a chance to die for your country. And you may not die, you may come back like this(referring to his physical appearance). Not everybody dies little kiddies. Closer please. You over there against the blackboard, what's the matter with you? Quit crying, you silly little girl, come over here and look at the nice man, the nice man who was a soldier boy. You remember him don't you? You remember little crybaby how you waved flags and saved foil and put your savings in thrift stamps? Of course you do silly. Well here's the soldier you did it for."

Those people who wave those damn flags don't know what the fuck they're waving for. That's the problem I have with them. They think waving those flags means that they love this country. That's bullshit. That flag is for the love of this government and war.

And who says this flag is used to unify us? That's bullshit. If you are the only one not waving a flag you are with the fucking terrorists.

"You are either with us, or you are with the terrorists."
Better pull out those flags...

[antieverything]

I like the symbolism of the inverted flag. Inverting a flag is a sign of distress, so it is like saying that the country is screwed up and needs help. My cousin has an inverted flag in his room (cuz he wants to be like his cool ass older cousin) and his friend accused him of being a fucking satanist!

[Exploited Class]

Okay first off, it is material, it holds nothing sacred, it is not magical, it is not a symbol for anything, and it is nothing but woven thread that has been altered by dyes.

It is only a symbol for something if you make.
If somebody thinks highly of this symbol then they are weak and need instruments to provide them with some type of reassurance for their love of the place they happened to be born in.
A flag has never jumped out and saved somebody from a bullet, nor given somebody CPR. It does absolutely nothing but held in reverence by people that put more importance into an object of ordinality than in the people surrounding them.
The simple people of a country need symbols to guide them and to bestow their love onto, i.e. crosses, stars of davids, a mascot for a team, a flag....ect..ect.
The Enlightened class needs none of this because we see things for what they are and the ill effects they have on simple people.
Simple people can not comprehend what a concept like freedom actually is, so they believe it is a flag and that, that flag is the definition of freedom. What freedom actually is, is a right that every born body has, and flag or no flag that freedom is still an inalienable right. You can take every flag out of a country and it wouldn't affect freedom in the slightest.
People didn't die for a flag ever; they died because people in a ruling class that would never fight in the war sent them to die or to win. Nobody dies protecting ideals, people die for political reasons. They die either protecting their resources from an aggressor or taking resources. People only automatically think somebody has died for an ideal because the phrase "My dad died protecting the freedoms of that flag to wave" caught on and perpetuated a belief for a system no matter how right or wrong to continue to exist.
Freedom is freedom, either you have it or you don't and no flag, eagle or song changes it. You are simple if you think other wise and have bought into one of the greatest and largest advertisements of all time, the commercial of your country.

Burning these 2.99 Chinese made fabrics upsets only the people that hate freedom the most, the freedom to do what ever you want so long as it doesn't hurt the guy next to you. It shows who truly the facists are and who truly can not handle the spirit of individuality. The people that have heard so many times that they only know they are suppose to be free, but haven't a clue to what it means. People who want conformity, who can't stand people exercising their freedom to have and show their opinion. They want their freedom, so long as guy next freely agrees with them.

When the freedom to burn the flag of "freedom" is taken away, and people who worship it for all it is not. Then freedom is removed and mindless patriots ready for control will move the country in what ever the ruling class sees fit. I they will do it waving their precious flag.

People burn it to feel free, feel free to show their distaste for what ever reason; it doesn’t matter that is the beauty of TRUE FREEDOM.

[Exploited Class]

Just like to see, that the symbol of so called freedom, is covered in maybe some of the most rules ever instructed for a single object, second to maybe only the handling of plutonium.

1. When the flag is displayed over the middle of the street, it should be suspended vertically with the union to the north in an east and west street or to the east in a north and south street.

2. The flag of the United States of America, when it is displayed with another flag against a wall from crossed staffs, should be on the right, the flag's own right [that means the viewer's left --Webmaster], and its staff should be in front of the staff of the other flag.

3. The flag, when flown at half-staff, should be first hoisted to the peak for an instant and then lowered to the half-staff position. The flag should be again raised to the peak before it is lowered for the day. By "half-staff" is meant lowering the flag to one-half the distance between the top and bottom of the staff. Crepe streamers may be affixed to spear heads or flagstaffs in a parade only by order of the President of the United States.

4. When flags of States, cities, or localities, or pennants of societies are flown on the same halyard with the flag of the United States, the latter should always be at the peak. When the flags are flown from adjacent staffs, the flag of the United States should be hoisted first and lowered last. No such flag or pennant may be placed above the flag of the United States or to the right of the flag of the United States.

5. When the flag is suspended over a sidewalk from a rope extending from a house to a pole at the edge of the sidewalk, the flag should be hoisted out, union first, from the building.

6. When the flag of the United States is displayed from a staff projecting horizontally or at an angle from the window sill, balcony, or front of a building, the union of the flag should be placed at the peak of the staff unless the flag is at half-staff.

7. When the flag is used to cover a casket, it should be so placed that the union is at the head and over the left shoulder. The flag should not be lowered into the grave or allowed to touch the ground.

8. When the flag is displayed in a manner other than by being flown from a staff, it should be displayed flat, whether indoors or out. When displayed either horizontally or vertically against a wall, the union should be uppermost and to the flag's own right, that is, to the observer's left. When displayed in a window it should be displayed in the same way, that is with the union or blue field to the left of the observer in the street. When festoons, rosettes or drapings are desired, bunting of blue, white and red should be used, but never the flag.

9. That the flag, when carried in a procession with another flag, or flags, should be either on the marching right; that is, the flag's own right, or, if there is a line of other flags, in front of the center of that line.

10. The flag of the United States of America should be at the center and at the highest point of the group when a number of flags of States or localities or pennants of societies are grouped and displayed from staffs.

11. When flags of two or more nations are displayed, they are to be flown from separate staffs of the same height. The flags should be of approximately equal size. International usage forbids the display of the flag of one nation above that of another nation in time of peace.

12. When displayed from a staff in a church or public auditorium on or off a podium, the flag of the United States of America should hold the position of superior prominence, in advance of the audience, and in the position of honor at the clergyman's or speaker's right as he faces the audience. Any other flag so displayed should be placed on the left of the clergyman or speaker (to the right of the audience).

*there is actually some more but I hope everybody gets the point.*

[Anonymous]

That is kinda scary.

But scarier still, most American wouls definately seek to obey these rules

[Field Marshal]

Truer words have never been spoken Exploited Class.

What would you tell a person who strongly bevlieves that the flag is seen as hope, a crutch, or a relic for the love of their country?

And, are you saying that there is no symbol of freedom except freedom itself? If you are, that's sweet.

[Exploited Class]

Quote: from Field Marshal on 6:47 pm on Sep. 14, 2002
Truer words have never been spoken Exploited Class.

What would you tell a person who strongly bevlieves that the flag is seen as hope, a crutch, or a relic for the love of their country?

And, are you saying that there is no symbol of freedom except freedom itself? If you are, that's sweet.

Thank you.
For people that need that flag as a symbol, I would say to them, "Look to yourself for that which you hold so dear, the ideals and beauty of freedom can never be expressed by any object(s) but only through diligent practice. For once an object has representation of any one thought, that object will be waved and flaunted ahead of a crowd without thought."

Yes, that is exactly my point; freedom is condition, a state of mind and practice. Something so large, so great, struggled for, fought for and desired after by mankind could never be locked up in any one object. It is and always will be only that. An existence, and once freedom actually exists, no flags would be necessary to sell it. You only need advertisement for something when it doesn't actually exist.

It will always be more comfortable to believe that a symbol perched on an edifice high above your head, is what governs the body of a nation. A figurehead to turn to a say, "That is the representation of what we hold dear and cherish." Unfortunately it will be only through hard work and practice that those ideals will actually take bloom.

[Field Marshal]

that's beautiful. You should write more of that stuff on your website. Call it the Philosophy of Freedom or whatever you want, it's great stuff.