Discussion about anarchism

[StalinLeninMao]

Greetings Comrades!!!

Death to the capitalist system of oppression, where the poor workers are forced to work for long hours, with little pay, and no say! Death to the Plutocratic politics of the Capitalist system, where wealth reigns supreme, and the average man is given no say! We will defeat the current system! We will crush it, and crush its supporters like grapes. We, the people, will seize the state, our workplace, the media, etc!

Well, Anarchism is great in theory! I think it would be great if we could get rid of the state right away! It is in the very nature of the State to do evil things, though sometimes for good causes. Comrade Marx, the first really great Communist, said that the state must use measures of force against the Capitalist class. He also said the Capitalist class does not cease to exist after the proletariat have been organized as the ruling class. Also, our beloved Comrade Lenin once said "When there is state there can be no freedom, but when there is freedom there will be no state."

However, human nature has been deeply corrupted by Capitalism. Capitalism has taught us to seek only our good, work by ourselves, etc. We see these things in humans today. You may think that this is just something humans are born with. Well, if you look at pre-historic man he did not act this way. They worked as a team, and looked out for the good of the clan. If you would like a more modern example, look at the Native Americans. They acted the same way!

It is stupid to believe that our nature will become good right away. It just won't happen. We need a period of time, socialism, for the nature of the people as a collective to become good again. Also, we must weed out reactionary elements of society if we are ever to become a Communist society. Anarchism will fail because of the current corrupted state of humanity.

[Kropotesta]

Greetings Comrades!!!

Death to the capitalist system of oppression, where the poor workers are forced to work for long hours, with little pay, and no say! Death to the Plutocratic politics of the Capitalist system, where wealth reigns supreme, and the average man is given no say! We will defeat the current system! We will crush it, and crush its supporters like grapes. We, the people, will seize the state, our workplace, the media, etc!

Well, Anarchism is great in theory! I think it would be great if we could get rid of the state right away! It is in the very nature of the State to do evil things, though sometimes for good causes. Comrade Marx, the first really great Communist, said that the state must use measures of force against the Capitalist class. He also said the Capitalist class does not cease to exist after the proletariat have been organized as the ruling class. Also, our beloved Comrade Lenin once said "When there is state there can be no freedom, but when there is freedom there will be no state."

However, human nature has been deeply corrupted by Capitalism. Capitalism has taught us to seek only our good, work by ourselves, etc. We see these things in humans today. You may think that this is just something humans are born with. Well, if you look at pre-historic man he did not act this way. They worked as a team, and looked out for the good of the clan. If you would like a more modern example, look at the Native Americans. They acted the same way!

It is stupid to believe that our nature will become good right away. It just won't happen. We need a period of time, socialism, for the nature of the people as a collective to become good again. Also, we must weed out reactionary elements of society if we are ever to become a Communist society. Anarchism will fail because of the current corrupted state of humanity.
well the class conciousness needed to ignite and fight for the revolution should see to that.
Also anarchists don't think society can reach communism over night, that is just a fallacy. We promote social revolution.

[gla22]

Question for Anarchists: How would an Anarchist society complete large projects like dams and freeways?

[Bright Banana Beard]

Question for Anarchists: How would an Anarchist society complete large projects like dams and freeways?

We sent delegate and let them form committee (still have no authority) and ask/give information to every commune about the project. However, we do support Anarchist Federation. Don't be blind that we end of stage, we still have a large way to go.

[trivas7]

Also anarchists don't think society can reach communism over night, that is just a fallacy. We promote social revolution.

How so? What is the revolutionary program of anarchists to get to classless society?

[gla22]

How so? What is the revolutionary program of anarchists to get to classless society?

yeah, i was always under the impression from lenins the state and revolution that anarchy required the immediate abolition of state.

[bcbm]

How so? What is the revolutionary program of anarchists to get to classless society?

Agitate and organize the under-classes until we achieve sufficient strength to destroy capital and the state, creating a new world within the old in the meantime.

[Kropotesta]

How so? What is the revolutionary program of anarchists to get to classless society?
The idea that anarchists propose an overnight revolution is wrong. We believe that revolutions is a process and not an event- social revolution. However it is true that we support the idea that the state and capitalism should be got rid as soon as possible. How quickly after such a destruction we move to a fully anarchist-communist society is a questionable point, depending on the conditions the revolution is facing and the ideas and wants of the people making it. Thus we agree that an anarchist-communist society cannot be made over night. Anarchism has to be created from below, by people who want, through liberating and organising themselves.
"Communist organisations must be the work of all, a natural growth, a product of the constructive genius of the great mass. Communism cannot be imposed from above; it could not live even for a few months if the constant and daily co-operation of all did not uphold it. It must be free."- Kropotkin.

[RedHal]

THe problem I have with anarchism, is that the revolution will take way too long to happen, if it will happen at all. The ruling class' control of the media and the learning institutions has shaped the minds of the masses to reject any form of communist/anarchist movement. For an anarchist revolution to happen they need to convert the masses over to their ideology completely. With our limited resources compared to the ruling class, it's like fighting a tank with a slingshot. That's why Anarchism is a first world phenomenon, made up of mostly middle class whites, they are not in a desperate situation, imperialism does not affect them, they live a comfortable life, they have the luxury of waiting for that possible revolution.

Whereas communist revolutions, particularly Maoists, are taking place right now in the 3rd world. People there are directly affected by Imperialism, they cannot wait for that possible revolution.

[Kropotesta]

THe problem I have with anarchism, is that the revolution will take way too long to happen, if it will happen at all. The ruling class' control of the media and the learning institutions has shaped the minds of the masses to reject any form of communist/anarchist movement. For an anarchist revolution to happen they need to convert the masses over to their ideology completely.
So you actually want to force revolution upon people? How exactly would you go about that?


With our limited resources compared to the ruling class, it's like fighting a tank with a slingshot. That's why Anarchism is a first world phenomenon, made up of mostly middle class whites, they are not in a desperate situation, imperialism does not affect them, they live a comfortable life, they have the luxury of waiting for that possible revolution.
Are you an idiot? Have you heard of the CNT-FAI in the Spanish revolution? The Makhnovists in the Urkaine? And currently the Zaptistas in Mexico, the large anarchist movement in Greece and also many organisations around the world. Yes, of course there are middle class anarchists, so what? but I, personally, wouldn't say they're in the majority. Also saying anarchism is a soley first world ideology is, well.....shit, isn't it?


Whereas communist revolutions, particularly Maoists, are taking place right now in the 3rd world. People there are directly affected by Imperialism, they cannot wait for that possible revolution.
Oh Mao was great.....wasn't he?:rolleyes:

[Dros]

Oh Mao was great.....wasn't he?

Yeah. He actually fucking was. Read a book.

[trivas7]

The idea that anarchists propose an overnight revolution is wrong. We believe that revolutions is a process and not an event- social revolution. [... ] Anarchism has to be created from below, by people who want, through liberating and organising themselves.
"Communist organisations must be the work of all, a natural growth, a product of the constructive genius of the great mass. Communism cannot be imposed from above; it could not live even for a few months if the constant and daily co-operation of all did not uphold it. It must be free."- Kropotkin.

I agree w/ RedHal that this is a formula for never getting to classless society. Unless workers take over the levers of state power those who hold power will never allow anarchism/communist organizations to be built, let alone to thrive.

[Forward Union]

Question for Anarchists: How would an Anarchist society complete large projects like dams and freeways?

All decisions would be made in regional delegates assemblies. They would discuss and vote on projects like that.



yeah, i was always under the impression from lenins the state and revolution that anarchy required the immediate abolition of state.


Yes, but that doesn't mean the abolition of the mechanisms of state. For example, the Millitary. Which would instead be governed by the soverign decrees of workers assemblies.

There would be no central decision making body, but there would still be decision making bodies in the forms of work place and community councils. Which operate in a federal manner. In fact, throught the 1800s Anarchism was more commonly known as Federalism.


How so? What is the revolutionary program of anarchists to get to classless society?

Most Anarchists believe that the workers must be mobalised to overthrow capitalism and the state, and fill the vaccume with a new decision making structure of democratic workers Councils or "soviets" and that the mechanisms of state, such as the millitary and police should be put under control of these new mechanisms.
They can then engage in war against the Counter-revolutionaries.

In contrast to Leninism. Anarchists have always argued that if you vest power in a comitte of people and entrust them to take care of the interests of the working class they automatically get a new set of class interests that are seperate to the wider working class. As the new state has pretty much one mandate; to win a war and maintain its power and influence. This creates a vaccume that demands dictatorship over the proletariat. It doesnt matter how sincere you are in your revolutionary convictions, once you are in that position, you do what you have to do. I think history absolves this accusation.

[trivas7]

Agitate and organize the under-classes until we achieve sufficient strength to destroy capital and the state, creating a new world within the old in the meantime.

All the agitation and organization in the world will not destroy capitalism. This can only be accomplished through political action. And it's just such a revolutionary program that anarchism lacks.

[Forward Union]

All the agitation and organization in the world will not destroy capitalism. This can only be accomplished through political action. And it's just such a revolutionary program that anarchism lacks.

The Organisational Platform of the Libertarian Communists written by Workers Cause in 1936 was a direct call to form sucha programe. In The Ukrainian Anarchist Revolution they had such a programe. Some Anarchist recognised this as common sense, others accused it of beign bolshevism.

[Forward Union]

That's why Anarchism is a first world phenomenon, made up of mostly middle class whites

That's the biggest pile of crap I've ever read. I don't know any anarchists who I would term as middle class. All the Anarchists I know, even the ones I fanatically disagree with, work for just over minimum wage, can barely afford rent and are pretty much like the rest of the working class in this country. None of them have jobs beyond that. On the other hand, I think a lot of Leninists have adopted the "Only time a worker will see the inside of an office is when s/hes painting it" bullshit idea of class.

Furthermore, there are fairly Big Anarchist oragnisations in places like Chile, Mexico, Bolivia, Argentina, Palestine/Israel, South Africa, India, Pakistan, Columbia, full of working class people who are at the forefront of workers struggles. I was actually speaking to a Colombian worker on the Mayday march, who told me it was good to see Anarchists there, as in Columbia they are good comrades that show the strongest solidairty between workers.

Your accusation is based on prejudice and steriotype, and not fact. I am willing to accept and discuss many faults that Anarchism has with comrades. But not this bullshit slander.

[trivas7]

Anarchists have always argued that if you vest power in a comitte of people and entrust them to take care of the interests of the working class they automatically get a new set of class interests that are seperate to the wider working class.


This is not in contrast to Leninism. This is not Leninism at all.

[Forward Union]

This is not in contrast to Leninism. This is not Leninism at all.


Not in principal. But it is in practice.

[trivas7]

Not in principal. But it is in practice.
Leninism is both a principle -- the writings of Lenin -- and a practice, how Lenin carried out the Marxist program for revolution. To "vest power in a comitte of people and entrust them to take care of the interests of the working class" is not what Lenin either preached or accomplished. Read State and Revolution, the history of Bolveshism. This the single worse legacy of Stalinism: to reinforce the notion that socialism is measured by the degree to which a managerial class -- and not workers -- control the economy.

[Kropotesta]

Yeah. He actually fucking was. Read a book.
Read plently, thanks.

[Kropotesta]

I agree w/ RedHal that this is a formula for never getting to classless society. Unless workers take over the levers of state power those who hold power will never allow anarchism/communist organizations to be built, let alone to thrive.
Or they could become what they once hated in their 'attempt' at reorganising the state.

[trivas7]

Or they could become what they once hated in their 'attempt' at reorganising the state.

Are you making a case for the moral equivalence of state capitalism of self-proclaimed socialist states and Western capitalist states? Who is 'they'?

[Kropotesta]

Are you making a case for the moral equivalence of state capitalism of self-proclaimed socialist states and Western capitalist states? Who is 'they'?
I'm a anarchist-communist. So obviously I'm going to object to any idea of a state or centralisation of power.

[Forward Union]

Leninism is both a principle -- the writings of Lenin -- and a practice, how Lenin carried out the Marxist program for revolution. To "vest power in a comitte of people and entrust them to take care of the interests of the working class" is not what Lenin either preached or accomplished. Read State and Revolution, the history of Bolveshism. This the single worse legacy of Stalinism: to reinforce the notion that socialism is measured by the degree to which a managerial class -- and not workers -- control the economy.

As a communist I appreciate your argument. But I have heard this line several times and it simply doesnt account for several realities. All I can do is point them out to fellow comrades and hope they come round.

Firstly, the decision making power of the soviets was disolved long before Stalin. The Anarchists fought to keep this structure against creeping centralisation. Particularly in Ukraine which they held for several years. And despite alliances with the bolsheviks, Trotsky remarked "Better to cede Ukraine to the White army that allow an expansion of Anarchism"

Secondly, although Stalin did pervert Marxist-Leninism, Leninism created the structures that allowed opportunists like stalin to take over. This would not be possible if the mechanisms of state were governed workers delegate councils.

[trivas7]

As a communist I appreciate your argument. But I have heard this line several times and it simply doesnt account for several realities. All I can do is point them out to fellow comrades and hope they come round.

Secondly, although Stalin did pervert Marxist-Leninism, Leninism created the structures that allowed opportunists like stalin to take over. This would not be possible if the mechanisms of state were governed workers delegate councils.

If by "the structures that allowed opportunists like Stalin to take over" you mean democratic centralism as the organizational principle in the Party I deny that this had anything to do w/ the soviets loosing control over the economy. Amidst counter-revolution, invading armies, and no proletariat left, surely there remained no material basis to build egalitarian economic structures.

I think the lesson to be learned is that any political structure can be subverted, as shown time and again throughout history. As Chomsky has stated, authoritarian structures are rarely justified. Having said that, my suspicion is that anarchists hate authority -- especially social authority -- more than they are willing to fight -- to organize -- for communist society. Perhaps, I'm wrong.

[trivas7]

As a communist I appreciate your argument. But I have heard this line several times and it simply doesnt account for several realities. All I can do is point them out to fellow comrades and hope they come round.


Yes, one comment cannot account for serveral realities.