Prostitution - Is it wrong?

[canikickit]

Do you think Prostitution is a travesty of human nature, or do you think it is as acceptable as masturbation?

Personally I believe it is perfectly okay, provided the women are not being exploited (some might say they are all being exploited regardless). In the Netherlands it can be perfectly regulated and the women can be tested for STDs and also recieve the neccessary education on contraception and STDs. They are also provided with protection and it is not the dangerous job it could be.
It is time for governments to acknowledge that this is something which is not going away. It has been here since biblical times and will be here until revelation times. It is better to have some sort of regulation than drugs and violence (and sex).

[CubaVictoria1983]

I think it should be allowed but women need to be aducated about STDs and proper contraception all over the world not only in the Netherlands. I mean everyone knows that there's at least one prostitute in every American Town, it's just time that it's accepted and the women or men is some cases are educated. A lot of child molestation, rapes etc. could also be prevented if some guys or girls went to prostitutes instead of little kids or other victims.

(Edited by CubaVictoria1983 at 5:21 pm on Sep. 4, 2002)

[boadicea88]

I personally think that it should be illegal, with prostitutes fined and sentenced to 2-5 years in a labor camp. That may sound harsh, but you asked for opinions.

[BigBlakAf]

I'm kinda mixed on prostitution, probably because of the prostitution underworld, pimps, ho's shit like that. But obviously if it were made legal then it wouldn't be like that. But it would be hard for our government to regulate prostitution because of the uproar. I think that if the two are consenting then its fine. And now that I think about it, when a man takes his wife out to dinner so he can get some afterwards, is that prostitution?

[Mazdak]

Ban it. Execute all pimps and prostitutes for breaking the law. That simple.

Edit- Wasnt there a thread on this already?

(Edited by Mazdak at 2:33 am on Sep. 5, 2002)

[man in the red suit]

sentence for prostitution: all prostitutes and pimps convicted of prostituting crimes are senteced to the Mazdak and Gacky camp where they will undergo a harsh torture procedure by Gacky and then a "moral cleansing" by Mazdak.

[canikickit]

Non- Edit: I don't care if there was a thread on this before.


when a man takes his wife out to dinner so he can get some afterwards, is that prostitution?

Yes man! This is a good point which I meant to bring up myself. When I go out, and I want to get laid (i.e. 97.63417982% of the time), I usually have to buy the girl a few drinks and pay for the taxi and shit like this, I have no problem doing this, I do it gladly, and would buy a girl drinks just on the basis of liking her. But where is the difference between spending money in a submersive way, and the direct exchange of money for services rendered? Provided both have the sense and sensibility and are considered of sound mind and body, who is anybody (even Mazdak) to say this is wrong?

Why is it wrong?

What is the moral difference between sleeping with a prostitute and masturbating over a picture of Jennifer Lopez? I'll tell you. A prostitute knows (hopefully) that she is being used, poor old Jenny on the other hand...

Is masturbation wrong?

Mazdak, its not that simple. If you change the law (as I am saying), then your statement has no grounds.

[Mazdak]

You cant control masturbation as easily as prostitution. Prostitution breeds STDs/poverty. And it breeds in poverty. There is a difference between having sex with someone you like( after dinner) then just going up to a stranger and asking to pay them for a blowjob.

[man in the red suit]

I think that Mazdak would like a blowjob

[Mazdak]

among other things, MITRS, among other things.

[man in the red suit]

Quote: from Mazdak on 2:52 am on Sep. 5, 2002
among other things, MITRS, among other things.


lol

[canikickit]

Try reading my post. Or perhaps you should go here (http://www.m-w.com/home.htm)and find out the meaning of regulation.
Look at the Netherlands. THey do not have problems like those you mentioned to the extent that the US and other countries have.
In Ireland, most of the prostitutes are on Heroin, there is no control, there is no education or protection. The problem cannot be ignored. The Netherlands has set an example, others should follow.

[Turnoviseous]

Prostitution is a profession as any other. It is a profession like a miner.

But there are two things why prostitution is happening. The concept of answering the question is again purely materialistic on one hand, and personal on the other.

As a miner, so can a prostitute want to become one. Some actually like the job they do (miners or prostitutes, does not matter). This is a personal want.

On the other hand, the capitalism itself can force you into the job you do not want to do. If there is no places for a chef, you have to go to the mine to feed your family, if there is no other places.
In capitalism bourgeoisie buys labour from the proletariat. Proletariat sells itself (its labour) and bourgeoisie is the buyer of them (their labour).

In capitalism, there is always a certain higher want for things that are necessary for the living (like bread for example).

Ok, let us get back to the jobs in capitalism. Capitalists offer jobs, in proportion to their need. In most cases machines are switching the role of the workers, because they do job better.

Now let us proceed to the role and work of the prostitute. As we said for the chef, prostitute can also be forced into prostitution because there are no offers for the jobs certain human is able or either prepared to do.

But prostitution is something that is very different from the ordinary relations. Machines do not do better job than humans, in this field.

Next thing is that there are more offers for prostitution, than for a miner. Society has greater need for prostitutes than for miners, because of the human nature itself. It is like bread. Everyone has to eat, but bread production was improoved by machines, on the other hand prostitution stays the same for ages, there is no machine that can actually improove the thing. It can do it, but can not give as many as pleasure as human can give.

From that point of view, I can say that transformation to socialism and later communism will not abolish prostitution. It will reduce it greatly, but not abolish it.

And to the ones who say that it should be abolished by force I say that this is like abolishing any other profession.


(Edited by Turnoviseous at 3:10 am on Sep. 5, 2002)

[Mazdak]

Why cant we all share our women?(and for the women, why cant we share our men)? Isn't communism about sharing? j/k.

[boadicea88]

Quote: from Mazdak on 6:32 pm on Sep. 4, 2002
Ban it. Execute all pimps and prostitutes for breaking the law. That simple.

(Edited by Mazdak at 2:33 am on Sep. 5, 2002)


That was another option...
j/k means 'just kidding', right?

[Pinko]

Many women are prostitutes due to social exclusion and would rather do something else with their lives if given the chance. Those that are there by choice are often borderline sociopaths or self-hating, thinking that it is all they deserve. Vast ammounts do it for drug money.

Women should be allowed to enter the profession (as should men) but it should be for the reason that they want to do that as a job. Not because they feel it is their only way to earn a living.

Then again, it is an industry that is so full of absuse, maybe it should be banned for the sake of the majority who find it their last refuge.

Either way, there should be support for those that want to get out of the industry.

[canikickit]

Yes.
Pinko, what you say is true, however the problem will not go away, that is why there must be regulation.

[Pinko]

The problem will never go away because the user of a prostitute is often given an easy ride (by the law) in comparason to the prostitute. If you make it illegal to utilise the services of a prostitute then the demand will dry up (not completely) and a portion of the problem will abate.

[canikickit]

I don't see why you would not make it simply legal.
With legality the following problems are made much smaller:
danger to the prostitutes
STDs
danger to the curb crawlers/clientele
drugs (the prostitutes could be drug tested)

That's probably not all, but my brain isn't really working right now.
The problems of self-loathing, and social exclusion are impossible to deal with, in my opinion. You can refer to my post about being a cynic here.

I am of course hypothesising all this under a capitalist system. In a socialist paradise things would be different.

[DestinDisaster]

all I have to say is the age old saying, " Prostitution is the oldest profession in the world." The first step to recovery is admitance. people need to stop denying the fact that its going to happen anyway. At least if its regulated the man and woman is protected from STD's, and the man won't bring any STD's to his future lover, slowing the spread of any sexually transmitted diseases.

[Action]

Fuck tha fuckin Law. I you wanna screw whores, go ahead. Besides, they get paid anyway.

[mentalbunny]

well prostitution is here so we may as well make it legal so the prostitutes themselves are safer, but it's hard to be safe on the streets...

i don't completely agree with prostitution, men shouldn't be avle to give in like that, the men who go to prostitues don't generally deserve any sex! (but that's jsut my opinion, i wouldn't really know so don't get angry with me!!)

oh well, i hope the UK legalise it soon, i'd rather they legalised that than cannabi if they could only legalise one.

[Pinko]

Interesing that most people associate prostitution with women. There is a thriving male prostitution community in the UK, they are normally refered to as escorts and rarely tout for business on street corners.
Legalising it and sorting out a sex-workers union, with basic rights and ground rules, support for workers with problems etc... would go a long way to solving many of the problems.

[Mazdak]

If you make an example of a few prostitutes. It will stop. I assure you. Especially a televised "example." Prostitutes are filth. It is this simple. Legalizing prostitution? I say as i said before. Ban it. And cigarrettes also should be banned. But i am sure all of you are desparate for lung cnacer, you sure are desparate for HIV.

[canikickit]

I think you are a retard, Mazdak. Your mother should have been forced to excecute you while you were still in the womb.

Your assurances are worthless. You are mistaken, where would it be televised? You think the whole world has CNN? Its incredible how foolish some of the things you post are.

[Mazdak]

Ok. Fine. Would you prostitute if you knew what awaited you? NO you wouldnt. You are the retard. although at first there will be resistance, there is none later on. Not after the streets are depopulated of prostitutes and pimps. And drug dealers all the same.


It would be televised so everyone would see it. Everyone. Not just a city or a town, the whole damn world.

[canikickit]

It would be televised so everyone would see it. Everyone. Not just a city or a town, the whole damn world
That's just ridiculous.

If it is regulated (http://www.m-w.com/home.htm) these problems will become far less.

You could never excecute all the prostitutes, even if it was a good idea. More would come.
You are not reading the posts or debating. You are looking for reactions. Grow up. Go back to seaworld.

[Mazdak]

once again, you piece of shit, regulation means nothing. there is always an underground or acheaper seller who will have cheap hookers with STDs.

And i didnt say execute all prostitutes. Only those that were caught. And You would have alot less if you made an example of them. How is it so difficult for one to understand. Oh thats right, you are a piece of shit who only cares about music and cannabis.

Shut the fuck up.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Mazdak on 12:22 am on Sep. 6, 2002
once again, you piece of shit, regulation means nothing. there is always an underground or acheaper seller who will have cheap hookers with STDs.

And i didnt say execute all prostitutes. Only those that were caught. And You would have alot less if you made an example of them. How is it so difficult for one to understand. Oh thats right, you are a piece of shit who only cares about music and cannabis.

Shut the fuck up.

Execute? What the hell? For what? Having sex...come on man.

I'm not in favor of STDS and hookers being killed in alleys but you are just as bad as the US


they wanna locl them up and you wanna kill them.

Why don't we just help them...or is sparing human likfe beyond your grasp?

[Edelweiss]

Mazdak you are a living joke.

[RedCeltic]

Mazdak:

Prostitution is the oldest profession in the world. It exists at some level in the most primitive societies.


And i didnt say execute all prostitutes. Only those that were caught.

Yea, and isn't anything legal as long as you don't get cought? Also kinda like it being ok to be gay and in the military, as long as they don't know it.

You haven't said anything that hasn't already been applied in the world. Executing prostitutes doesn't make it go away.

Why? Because... get this... people like sex, even, for some, to the extent that they are willing to pay for it. Plus, for the prostitute, it's a skill easy to learn.

Regulation of prostitution is the only real way to lower the risk of spreading STD from prostitution. Plus, if you start to bump off a bunch of hookers, they others will simply become more expensive.

(Edited by RedCeltic at 6:43 pm on Sep. 5, 2002)

[Anonymous]

All this talk about sex and hookers is givin' me a hankerin' for some goddamn poontang!


BTW, What Redceltic said reminded me of a story my dad once told me. A while back (in the 60's) he went on a vacation to Europe where he managed to take a tour of Pompeii. At one point the tourguide pointed to a painting on a wall that looked very familliar to the male genitalia. He explained that it was a sign pointing in the direction of the local whorehouse, and that sailors on leave would often use these "signs" in order to find it because most of them where illiterate.

[vox]

I don't think that anyone has yet brought up the notion of male entitlement, which tells us that it's okay to see a woman not as a human being but only as a female body, and it's perfectly acceptable for a man to use this body as he sees fit. Someone mentioned masturbating to a picture of Jennifer Lopez, comparing that with using a prostitute. The problem with that analogy is that a picture of Jennifer Lopez is NOT a human being. This process of dehumanization of the Other is a manifestation of patriarchal beliefs.

In capitalist society prostitution takes the form of commodification of sexuality, reducing a human relatioinship to vulgar exchange value while re-enforcing the patriarchal system which conveniently assists in maintaining the illusion that class divisions are "natural."

vox

[vox]

To those who receommend murder in dealing with prostitution, I suggest you look at what happened in Iran when such thought held sway.

vox

[Anonymous]

Quote: from vox on 6:21 am on Sep. 6, 2002
I don't think that anyone has yet brought up the notion of male entitlement, which tells us that it's okay to see a woman not as a human being but only as a female body, and it's perfectly acceptable for a man to use this body as he sees fit. Someone mentioned masturbating to a picture of Jennifer Lopez, comparing that with using a prostitute. The problem with that analogy is that a picture of Jennifer Lopez is NOT a human being. This process of dehumanization of the Other is a manifestation of patriarchal beliefs.

In capitalist society prostitution takes the form of commodification of sexuality, reducing a human relatioinship to vulgar exchange value while re-enforcing the patriarchal system which conveniently assists in maintaining the illusion that class divisions are "natural."

vox


It's fun though isn't it!?! :biggrin:

[vox]

Once again, the right-winger adds nothing but, for some reason, feels the need to express this nothingness for the world to see.

Please don't feed the trolls.

vox

[Anonymous]

funny

[canikickit]

I cannot tell a lie, it was I who compared prostitution to masturbating over a picture of Jennifer Lopez. There was more to what I said then what you mentioned.
I know there is a grave difference but these women (in the Netherlands) go into the profession willingly. They also can make a lot of money. I've read the actual figures somewhere before,but I can't find them at the moment.
However I think it is time that governments acknowledge the fact that it is not going away. They should look to the Netherlands. Anyway I've said what I have to say already, I fail to see how anybody with sense (i.e. not Mazdak)* cannot agree with legalisation.

*- I don't really like getting personal but I think I'll quote that well of knowledge and the man we all look up to, our lord and saviour; Malte:


Mazdak you are a living joke.

Well said Malte.

[vox]

canikickit,

Yes, you did say more in your other post, and I'm happy to address that.

"A prostitute knows (hopefully) that she is being used..."

You yourself here admit that a human being is being used, indeed, used just like a picture of someone. That's why I wrote: "This process of dehumanization of the Other is a manifestation of patriarchal beliefs."

You also wrote: "When I go out, and I want to get laid (i.e. 97.63417982% of the time), I usually have to buy the girl a few drinks and pay for the taxi and shit like this, I have no problem doing this, I do it gladly, and would buy a girl drinks just on the basis of liking her."

However, would you buy drinks for a prostitute? No, of course not, and that's the difference right there. This is why I wrote: "In capitalist society prostitution takes the form of commodification of sexuality, reducing a human relatioinship to vulgar exchange value...." That's exactly the point. One is based on the "cash nexus" and the other is based on personal feeling and human attraction. They are qualitatively different.

So I have to wonder why you write that a prostitute "can make a lot of money" when you've already stated that prostitutes are "used" by the johns as if that's a good thing.

vox

[peaccenicked]

Prostitution is only highlighted by its historical specificness. Prostitution is a clandestine but dominant idea and means of power of the ruling class. Sell your body, make money.
While there is pride in labour , it is also deeply humiliating. We should no longer hide our suffering and pain.
Everything is not a soap opera, it is ten times worse.

[canikickit]

Well, you obviously feel there is a moral wrong in sleeping with a prostitue, or indeed being a prostitute.
I do not think it is a problem, and while the women are being "used", if they are aware of it, is it a problem. Some women enjoy being used.
I don't view it as an emotional relationship. Therefore I see no problem with its "commodification" I don't really put a difference between it and pornography (morally that is).


"In capitalist society prostitution takes the form of commodification of sexuality, reducing a human relatioinship to vulgar exchange value...."

I understand where you are coming from, I really do. But, when you go to a hotel, for instance, the bell boy brings your bags to your room and you tip him. It is an exchange of services. Vulgar it might be, indeed from a communist perspective it is.

Vox, do you think it should be made legal?
If not, what do you propose as the best way to deal with the violence, drugs, and other problems that go with it.


while re-enforcing the patriarchal system which conveniently assists in maintaining the illusion that class divisions are "natural."

I don't think it does this. I do not look down on the prostitutes in the Netherlands. Indeed the reasons I would look down upon them in other places are due to the problems of it being a seedy, underground and criminal world.
Apart from moral issues, do you find reason to look down on the legal prostitutes.
(Its difficult to answer that clearly, I realize if your moral objection clouds your view).

You make good points.

[canikickit]

Mazdak, when I said I only liked music and cannabis, I was obviously not 100% serious. I doubt anyone would be capable of having a discussion about prostitution (or anything for that matter)if they didn't care about it.
That sentence makes me look kind of depraved. Oh well. Look, you little prick you're just a total idiot. The idea of a public broadcast around the entire globe is completely ridiculous.
I know what your fucking game is. I've said it before, you're just a kid, trying to create this persona. I can picture you and your slimy rat friends now, reading this and high-fiving each other. Thinking your great cos' you can piss off me and Nateddi and Malte and many others. But you are just a joke. A very bad joke. One of those bad jokes that are actually funny because of the embarassment of the person who told it.
You are a product of Uncle Sam, and you work for him, like it or not. I know I'm feeding you with this attention but I wish you could just get it into your thick skull. You might have some knowledge, but you have no wisdom. The thing that pisses me off most about you is the fact that people like you exist, not the actual things you say. Enjoy your government paycheck.

[vox]

"I understand where you are coming from, I really do. But, when you go to a hotel, for instance, the bell boy brings your bags to your room and you tip him. It is an exchange of services."

Perhaps this is where we diverge. I don't see the similarity between the two things. One of them mimics a pre-existing expression of human emotion, the other does not. Again, I think that there is a qualitative difference between the two.

"I don't view it as an emotional relationship. Therefore I see no problem with its "commodification" I don't really put a difference between it and pornography (morally that is)."

That's fine, but I didn't say that it commodified emotion but sexuality (and porn, I think, does the same). This, however, is specific to prostitution under capitalism.

"I don't think it does this. I do not look down on the prostitutes in the Netherlands. Indeed the reasons I would look down upon them in other places are due to the problems of it being a seedy, underground and criminal world.
Apart from moral issues, do you find reason to look down on the legal prostitutes."

I kind of object to the phrasing of the question, but I'll try to answer it. Do I "look down on" prostitutes as individual human beings? No.

I think that, to answer this clearly, I'll have to explain myself a little more. The quote from me in your post is specific to capitalist society, and that needs to be kept in mind.

The patriarchy was in place before capitalism, and certainly before modern Western capitalism, existed. If patriarchal values were in conflict with capitalist society, they would have been disgarded long ago. However, I believe that they compliment capitalism. This gets back to what I said about male entitlement, which allows men to look at the Other and believe that they are dominant, but one cannot be dominant without the Other being submissive, and this dominance is expressed in a variety of ways.

Prostitution is one of these ways. To quote Janice Raymond:

"As an economic activity, prostitution institutionalizes the buying and selling of women as commodities in the marketplace. It further removes women from the economic mainstream by segregating them as a class set apart for sexual servitude. It reinforces the definition of women as providers of sexual services, thereby perpetuating gender inequality. And it legitimizes and strengthens men's ability to put the bodies of women at their disposal." (Emphasis mine.)

In like manner, the capitalist sees the bodies of workers as his to dispose of as needed. This has a corollary in pre-existing patriarchal discrimination that fits hand in glove with capitalist class relations. The two reinforce each other, and as evidence I offer this discussion about whether or not prostitution, which allows men to dominate female sexuality, should be legalized. So far removed are we from anything but an economic bond that this subjugation appears to be nothing more than a money transaction, like tipping a bell hop or buying groceries.

vox

[canikickit]

hmmm...now you make very good points.

It is true that a prostitute would have a very difficult time living a "normal" life.


I kind of object to the phrasing of the question, but I'll try to answer it. Do I "look down on" prostitutes as individual human beings? No.
My question was bullshit, really (now that I fully realize you morally object). Ignore it.

I really feel however, that prostitution is not going away, and would rather have it legalised than continue in the fashion it does. At least some of the problems would be lessened that way. The problem of "male dominance of female sexuality" is still around with illegal prostitution combined with drugs and violence and so on.

I think, really, we agree with most of what each of us is saying (apart from the moral issue). Prostitution and porn do not really bother me. I believe people should be allowed to do as they please, provided they don't harm others.

I'm having difficulty expressing exactly how I feel about this, to be honest.

"I believe people should be allowed to do as they please, provided they don't harm others."

Prostitution does do harm to other women, but I really don't think there is anything which can be done about that. I think there will always be gender-bias, some men will always look down on women. There will forever be misogyny. Of course this does not mean it is okay to support prostitution (and therefore, indirectly support sexism) but in the now I have no moral objection, while long term I suppose I do.
I don't know if that makes sense to you or not, but if you are unsure, please ask rather than dismiss.

I believe it should be legalised.
My post is disorganised, I'm sorry about that, please bare with me.

[peaccenicked]

Everything is wrong with being a prostitute but that does not mean that prostitutes are not human beings with every right in the world. Those among them who can only see the commodity value are subjectively questionable but no more than a lawyer or a proffessional politician.
Extreme examples can be sited.
However what capitalism entails is the commodification of all relationships, love is in this battleground.
Those who judge prostitutes specifically should criticise poverty doubly and perhaps spiritual poverty three times as much.
The misery that capitalism, not only at times causes but perpetuates, worsens, and intensifies goes beyond
emotional rationalism. Indeed it it takes luck of educational circumstance to be able to start to do anything about it. Our freedom requires a couple of breaks. The more of us who do it, the more of us will have ground broken for us. We are up to our knees in mud. It has to be faced.

[Stormin Norman]

Prostitution, is it morally reprehensible? Yes, it is. Should it be considered a crime? No it should not. That is, as long as it is an act committed by two consenting adults. If some loser wants to pay for sex and the venereal disease that comes with it, fine by me. I am not going to be exposed to their despicable kind. The prostitute and the poor shmuck that pays for sexual gratification are a completely different type of life form. I get mine for free. Hell, while you're at it, give them heroine and the needles to shoot up. If somebody wants to destroy him or herself, make it easy for them to do it. The less filth occupying space the better. Just keep them out of my neighborhood.

Freedom is not always pretty. If we want the society to progress, certain lessons must be learned by allowing unfortunate souls to demonstrate that which is completely repugnant. Then again, maybe there is something to be said for keeping that which is vile in the sewers and alleys where the common person is less likely to be exposed to subhuman elements. Fact is, right now certain areas are so overcome by these problems, that prosecuting such crimes remains impossible. In these neighborhoods it is a commonality, second nature to those who live by the code of the streets. As it stands, we are engaged in a campaign to contain this problem to certain theaters. The purpose is to keep them in these select regions and stop the degradation of further areas. Once an area is infected the prognosis for that location remains poor. I have been to some of these places and there is no way to clean it up short of forced removal. Simply let them have the areas that they have already destroyed, but make it evident that they will not get aid from the taxpayer. If they want change they themselves must be responsible for cleaning up their own mess.

[vox]

Does anyone need further proof that SN is vile?

Notice how he blames victims of class society for being victimized? And make no mistake, he's talking about class: "If we want the society to progress, certain lessons must be learned by allowing unfortunate souls to demonstrate that which is completely repugnant. Then again, maybe there is something to be said for keeping that which is vile in the sewers and alleys where the common person is less likely to be exposed to subhuman elements."

The "common" person, SN says, should not be exposed to "filth." Andrea Dworkin, and no, I don't agree with everything she says, but she's been around a long time and has written some good stuff, pointed out that every hierarchal system needs a bottom, and the prostitute is that bottom. SN blames the prostitute for that.

In SN's world, things are black and white, good or bad. In the real world, where I don't think SN spends much time, things are not often like that. Rather, the world is made of greys, and only the bigot or the fool sees them as blacks and whites.

But SN showed his hand, and for this we should all be thankful, for no longer does anyone have to guess as to his character. See, SN wrote that prostitutes are "filth" and "subhuman." He denies them humanity and thereby abrogates any responsibility that we normally would expect for other human beings. This isn't new, of course. Black slaves weren't see as human, either.

But what's really telling is that SN says, "I get mine for free." Now, assuming that he means he's in a relationship, isn't it odd that he only focuses on the exchange of money? For someone like him, apparently, all other things are equal (black and white again).

This, to me, shows that SN thinks of all women as sex providers rather than as individual human beings. He sees the Other, and her body, as there for his use, his pleasure, his bidding. Only the act of cash payment draws SN's attention, that's all he mentioned. Nothing else.

And of course, there's the bit about STDs being the fault of the prostitute, as if it somehow originated with her when, of course, any thinking person knows that she most likely got it from a man. But SN dismisses these men as "losers," though we all know that Hugh Grant, who is more successful in terms of money than anyone posting here will probably ever be, and was in a relationship with Elizabeth Hurley at the time, was caught with a prostitute. The "losers" are the people you work with, the people you go to school with, the people who you drank a few beers with on Labor Day. Unlike the prostitute, they don't advertise what they do. The pay, fuck and leave, going back to their "normal" lives.

Keep posting, SN. Everything you write exposes you more.

vox

[Stormin Norman]

Everything I write exposes me more? I am not the one who is hiding my views from the scrutiny of others, Vox. You are the one who constantly evades questions and fails to lie out your point of view. Speaking in small doses of ideological trash is your trademark. I, unlike you have nothing to hide. I am honest with myself about my belief system, where as, you choose to hide it. Your idea that my speaking in some way 'exposes' me only exposes your tactics of speaking in half truths and hiding from the truth. Do not attribute me with any of your characteristics, Vox, for I do not own any of them. Your deceit is your own.
******************************************
When I spoke of the subhuman, I was merely speaking of anyone engaged in such activities rich and poor. Both the prostitute and the John are both part of the same act and share equal blame for the act. Therefore you can drop the classism and sexism, for I have heard that diatribe before.

It does not matter where the STD originates; they are both spreading the disease. A first time John probably contracts the disease and takes it home to his wife, where she gets it and passes it on her to side lover. I don't care where it originated. It is a seemingly endless cycle. Once his marriage fails because of his infidelity he may develop a deep resentment for prostitutes, but further compiles the problem. His next visit to the prostitute is less innocent as he may use the girl as a release of hostility, rather than sexual gratification. Prostitution has an underpinning violence associated with it, and may be the reason so many of them are targeted by serial killers.

I have known prostitutes. One of my first friends in high school became a high-class escort. She was not a victim of poverty, since she came from a upper-middle class family. She simply had deluded her ability to make rational decisions with all of the drugs she choose to take. Prostitution offered an easy way for her to earn money for her habits. No I did not cry for her, since she was a victim of her own folly. I can not hold respect for someone who does not respect him or herself. What act is more of a sign of self hatred than selling your body to men you have no emotional attachment to, many of whom are disgusting. For me, respect is something that has to be earned. When I sat down and ate lunch with this girl, I told her them same thing. She did not like me for what I said about her choices in life, but I wasn't about to pretend that I agreed with what she was doing. At one time, I had respected her, so I told her the truth. Certainly she deserved to hear the truth.

Of course, I believe in right and wrong, truth and lies. Only when we begin to skew the lines between right and wrong and accept things and call them gray areas do we get the type of society we live in today. I would not expect a relativist, such as yourself, to understand the concept of absolutes since you believe every truth can be bent to account for your own shortcomings as a person. Much like physics, there are laws that dictate the truth. Everything in the universe is subordinate to some kind of law or greater truth. In fact, reality is subject to the laws governing that which is physical. You can choose to ignore reality if you want. It will get you no where.

What I find funny is your I got you attitude. Yeah Vox, you really pulled one over on me. You caught me speaking the truth as I see it. That makes me a horrible person in the eyes of someone who doesn't believe in truth. Hell, let me give you another dose of it, Vox. I think people who claim that there is no fundamental law governing truth is worse than the prostitute and John combined. Sorry. I hope I didn't insult your sense of self-righteousness. Furthermore, how can you be so certain that you are in the right, when you claim that everything is simply a matter of perspective? Wouldn't that make us both right. If everything is 'shaded gray', what makes your criticism of me true. If you are in fact right, which by your own accord you can never be, then there is no point in arguing with me. Is there?

What I find disturbing, is your willingness to defend things like NAMBLA, and everything that is disgusting in nature as long as it opposes my point of view. Why do you make excuses for these people? Many of them will be the first to tell you that they are responsible for their own life’s outcome. If defending the sort of person who can commit acts against one another makes you progressive, then I am proud not to be among the liberals. If morality didn't exist then there would be no medium for man to deal with one another. Society would break down and killing would go unpunished. Is that the kind of world that you support? Based upon the secret desire of communists to witness human suffering, I would say that this is true. No matter how civilized you pretend to be, it is clear that you would like nothing more than a complete breakdown in the fabric that separates us humans from the animals. You are the one who is scary. I can not begin to fathom your perverse idea for what the world should look like. Whatever it is, I am sure it would yield post-apocalyptic results.

[Smoking Frog II]

Another thing ya gotta remember is that, like the modern Capitalist World, Prostituition is expensive, not that I would know?.

[vox]

Once again, SN lies, distorts and desperately tries to change the subject.

Notice that he doesn't address my post!

Rather than continuing an argument he's clearly lost, SN changes what the argument is about.

Again, SN those days are OVER.

Here's a typical SN lie: "What I find disturbing, is your willingness to defend things like NAMBLA...."

He is referring to another thread (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=934&start=30) in which he disparages, and I defend, the ACLU. In SN's mad world, that somehow becomes me defending NAMBLA. In the thread I just linked, I stated unequivocally that I do not like that group, but SN, typically, simply lies about it. For any thinking person on the board, SN should not have any credibility at all.

Most of SN's post is a diatribe against relativism. He claims that I support a postition which, of course, I do not. He says, "Of course, I believe in right and wrong, truth and lies." So do I, and I've pointed out, repeatedly, the outright lies that SN tells to everyone on this board. I just did so in this response. But that wasn't what I wrote.

See, I wrote, "In SN's world, things are black and white, good or bad. In the real world, where I don't think SN spends much time, things are not often like that." And I stand by that statement. In the real world, things seldom fall into a strict good/bad dichotomy. As I said, only fools and bigots see the complexities of life in such stark terms. This isn't about right and wrong, it's about the ability to perceive the subtleties of a situation. Knee jerk reactions and bumpersticker philososphy are the trademarks of right-wing ideology, of course, and SN is a prime example of that. So now we have an outright lie from SN and a complete mischaracterization of what I wrote. (SN must stay up at night constructing all of these straw men that he uses.)

SN writes, "When I spoke of the subhuman, I was merely speaking of anyone engaged in such activities rich and poor."

Notice, though, that he does not allow the prostitue to become human. No. That's too much for SN, and it's a perfect example of his black and white approach. We all know, of course, that prostitutes are human beings. All of us except SN, that is.

IN the next paragraph, SN constructs a little domestic drama to illustrate his point.

Let's mine this rich vein a little deeper. "It does not matter where the STD originates; they are both spreading the disease. A first time John probably contracts the disease and takes it home to his wife, where she gets it and passes it on her to side lover."

Even in this fantasy, SN states that the disease begins with the prostitute! The "unclean woman" must, of course, be the cause. This woman, made into an object by men, is now the "dirty ****" which infects a man. SN may state he doesn't care where a disease originates, he has twice blamed the prostitute.

Then he goes into a fantasy about how the disease may travel, creating imaginary couples with imaginary infidelities. Incredibly, and disgustingly, he uses this to justify violence against women:

"Once his marriage fails because of his infidelity he may develop a deep resentment for prostitutes, but further compiles the problem. His next visit to the prostitute is less innocent as he may use the girl as a release of hostility, rather than sexual gratification. Prostitution has an underpinning violence associated with it, and may be the reason so many of them are targeted by serial killers."

I really like this line: "...he may use the girl as a release of hostility, rather than sexual gratification." SN doesn't seem to understand that prostitution in and of itself shows hostility toward women, all women. SN dehumanizes and objectifies the prostitute just like a pimp, just like a john. Dehumanizing a person is an act of hostility. It is this very act of hostility that IS sexually gratifying.

(This is such an important point that I'm going to stop replying to SN for the moment and expand on that a little more. Earlier in the thread, masturbation was brought up in comparison to prostitution. What is the difference? The masturbating can achieve orgasm and in the process fantasize about anything he wishes. Why, then, would one risk anything by going to a prostitute? Because the prostitute is the fantasy reified. That's a very important point, I think. The prostitute is a body, but not a person. She is nothing. She exists solely as the creation of the john. She is a mouth, a vagina, a rectum. She is his.)

SN's amateur psychology about why prostitutes may be victim's of serial killers ignores, of course, the important point about class, about power. The prostitute is nothing. She's not a person. In SN's own words, she is "subhuman." She is powerless. She's a hole to the john, a victim to the killer and nothing to the patriarchal values which exist in class society. Who is going to care about a dead whore when the very act of prostitution conveys, in no uncertain terms, that no one cares about them when they are alive?

SN then regales us with the "touching" story about a prostitute he once knew (everyone online seems to have known a prostitute, but none ever use them). Given SN's penchant for falsehoods, I doubt the validity of this story. However, it's still of interest to us, for in it SN blames the victim, once again. Rather than offerering assistance, he offers blame and shame.

Nowhere, of course, does SN condemn prostitution as being debasing to all women, which it certainly is. Instead, he blames each victim individually. For SN, in his black and white world, there is no cultural dynamic at work here. That would require seeing shades of grey.

Now, SN, are you going to stop lying?

vox

[mentalbunny]

Basically in an ideal world no one would need prostitutes and the women (and men in some cases) would lead different lives.

But that is not the case, if a woman wants to sell her body, on the street or otherwise, i think she has the right to do so, I'm not complaining, but when a prostitute gets murdered that's definitely not a good thing. I don't balme the prostitute, i blame the murderer. these women often can't help that they are on the street, they are the victims, so they should be protected. Escort agencies offer at least some protection but if sex for money is legalised the whole thing will be much safer for everyone, the prostitutes and their customers as they will be at less risk from AIDS, etc. However there will probably still be some more dangerous prositiution, but the world isn't perfect, we can just try to make it as safe as possible.

Also I don't think we should be worrying so much about the women who put themselves on the street, I think the police should crack down on the sex slave trade, now that is evil. these women have no way of escaping, slavery is wrong but for sex as well, fuck that's more than ten times worse.

[Storman Normin]

Unfortunately, there cannot be a perfect world b4ecause of Stormin Norman and the FBI

[El Che]

SN if you want some "friendly" advice, since the rest of your buddies aren´t ganging up on vox in their usual manner and considering the beating your taking, you should count your loses and go lick your wounds before vox puts you in a comma.

I know, I know. Your wellcome.

[Storman Normin]

Mr El Che, If you are referring to Stormin Norman, I can tell you that him and his buddies are all the same person.

If refferring to Storman Normin, I am an individual and dedicated to discovering the truth.

[boadicea88]

Quote: from Malte on 4:38 pm on Sep. 5, 2002
Mazdak you are a living joke.


I'm a living joke too, as I think that Mazdak's ideas on prostitution are actually pretty good. However I must say that the idea of broadcasting that all over the world may wreak havoc with foreign relations and make other countries hate you, which would not be very cool. Best to keep it in your own country, perhaps expanding it to allied countries, if you were sure that they would still be allied.

[mentalbunny]

Stormin, you sick fuck, what you said aobut giving them heroin was way outta line. wash your mouth out with soap, that stuff is poison for the mind and body, how can you even joke aoubt it?!!!

[Guest]

Quote: from Malte on 12:38 am on Sep. 6, 2002
Mazdak you are a living joke.


Is that the best you can do you piece of nazi shit? Next time try a real argument.

[Mazdak]

This is idiotic. I dont know how intelligent people can even want to go over such a worthless subject.

Prostitution no matter how regulated is a problem. It is exposing people to unnecessary risks of STDs. No matter how hard you regulate, there will always be the lazy official who gets bribed and lets a few go by without checking.

[canikickit]

there will always be the lazy official who gets bribed and lets a few go by without checking

What the hell is this supposed to mean?
Its not about "officials", it's about education, and protection (i.e. bodygaurds and condoms).

What do you think the officials are checking? What are you talking about. Please explain yourself fully.

[Mazdak]

Protection is never certain. There is always a chance.

[canikickit]

Right. So you think that rather than attempt to protect them, you should excecute them?

Great, it's good to see how vastly your intelligence and powers of reasoning have improved during your time away from us.

[Anonymous]

Should pimps and/or pimping be allowed in a society where prostitution is legal?

[canikickit]

What exactly do you mean by pimping? What would the pimp do? I definitly don't agree with pimps who bully/con the women into the lifestyle. I wouldn't be in favour of a pimp who would get rich off the girls, naturally the money should go to the workers.

[boadicea88]

Quote: from canikickit on 6:40 pm on Sep. 8, 2002
it's about education, and protection (i.e. bodygaurds and condoms).


Bodyguards? What would they do? Who wants to fuck with a bodyguard in the room, anyway?

[canikickit]

In the Netherlands, each woman has an alarm button in her room, which alerts the bodygaurds. Are you really so naive that you think people would have a bodygaurd in the room? Or are you just trying to agree with Mazdak?

[vox]

"Should pimps and/or pimping be allowed in a society where prostitution is legal?"

They already are, but most people call them "Boss."

vox

[boadicea88]

Quote: from canikickit on 8:29 pm on Sep. 8, 2002
In the Netherlands, each woman has an alarm button in her room, which alerts the bodygaurds. Are you really so naive that you think people would have a bodygaurd in the room? Or are you just trying to agree with Mazdak?


I don't know the first thing about prostitution in the Netherlands, and I simply didn't think of a button (I suppose the idea would work, if the woman could get to the button). You see, I'm a sheltered, homeschooled, 14 year old girl.

[canikickit]

I don't know the first thing about prostitution in the Netherlands

Oh okay, please forgive me for my harsh reponse. Maybe if you don't know anything about what I'm talking about you shouldn't comment on it.

[boadicea88]

You're probably right, but I think that prostitution (well, low morals period) will ultimately lead to the complete degradation and downfall of a particular country.

[Anonymous]

I disagree, carefully regulated prostitution will be an important part of society

[Guest]

we must not forget that until the decline of ancient western civilization that 10 year old male prostitutes with their genitals removed, were very common, but much too expensive for working class.

[canikickit]

I don't see the relevance of that.

[Valkyrie]

I have to agree with Bodacia on this one.

The day of universally legalizing prostitution along with OSHA protocols, unions, great pay and benfits and without the the current stigma attached to it, will be the day every women becomes a prostitute and every man-- boyfriend, husband or otherwise, will have to pay for it. You think we're going to do it for free, if others are doing the same thing and getting wages and social security for it?? eh???

(Edited by Paris at 8:59 pm on Sep. 12, 2002)


(Edited by Paris at 9:20 pm on Sep. 12, 2002)

[canikickit]

My guts are all over the floor.

[Nateddi]

ROFL Funky Monk

prostitution is a perversion of the class society. Prostitution should not be "tolerated by the government", it should be abolished. Women need jobs, women need lives, women do not need to be prostitutes. Its astounding that you support government "regulation" of women selling their bodys.

[canikickit]

It's astounding that you seem to believe the problem can be dealth with in another way.

I think there is no other solution to the problem and nobody has suggested anything feasible here.

[Mazdak]

Good. Nateddi agrees too. Prostitution is a perversion. It is that simple. A button? Why waste time and effort getting body guards and spending money just so some lonely guy or girl can have their thrills witha complete stranger?

[canikickit]

Why spend time and effort getting excecutioners just so you can send out a message which will not have a lasting effect?

It is a solution.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Nateddi on 4:07 pm on Sep. 12, 2002
ROFL Funky Monk

prostitution is a perversion of the class society. Prostitution should not be "tolerated by the government", it should be abolished. Women need jobs, women need lives, women do not need to be prostitutes. Its astounding that you support government "regulation" of women selling their bodys.
No one decides to become a prostitute when she has the opportunity to work at 7-Eleven. I think that the money that would be spent on legalizing and regulating prostitution would be better spent on job training for people on Welfare, but as long as there are not enough jobs for women there will be prostitution.

Lindsay

[canikickit]

As long as there is life there will be prostitution and drug users and violence and murder and mayhem and so on...I don't think the idea of spending more money on job training and so on would work. There are still umemployed people with these schemes. Not everyone is going to suddenly become a prostitute, but at least the present prostitutes will be treated a lot more fairly.
I'm sick of this shit. people who are prostitutes and cocaine or heroin addicts are not dangers to society. Putting them in prison is a waste of the taxpayers money. The Netherlands knows the score.

[Mazdak]

1. Who said anything about prison? I didnt want to Sustain them, i wanted them executed. that is what i said. (actually, the drug addicts would pay for themselves via hardlabor.)

2. With these doors(prostitution and drugs) open, whats to stop people in then future from, lets say, legalizing nambla ideas? You are just turning soceity into a more degenerate thing then it has already become.

Lasting effect?? The Human race needs some kind of moral system... whats next? Legalize incest?

[RedCeltic]

Mazdak,

You're as bad as that Catholic Church of yours that forces it's code of ethics on people.

The fact that you feal that you need to force your own code of morality upon the people, means that you truly don't belive in the people at all. For, you're just showing that you think that the people are so dumb, that you have to insitute a vertal police state society

You're beliefs are basicly the imbodyment of everything I hate about government control... ON CRACK!

[canikickit]

Who said anything about prison?
Come on man. not everything I post is directly related to you.
The fucking gov't is who said something about prison. It is what they do. Yeah, yeah, yeah, decline of humanity....etc., etc., etc., I don't think excecuting everyone who disagrees with your morals is the way to save humanity from degenerating.


the drug addicts would pay for themselves via hardlabor
This is the worst idea I've ever heard. These people are sick. They need help, not punishment. The dealers and pushers are another story.

[Mazdak]

But the people are generally, as Machiavelli said, wicked. They are greedy and need such policing. You cant have a semiperfect communist state with such degenerate people.

Why should prostitution be legalized, to encourage people to become prostitutes and us prostitutes more. Why legaliz marijuana and other drugs. I can see medicinal purposes, but everyone knows that is not what they will be used for.

And we shouldnt even have to ask ourselves about nambla. That is just sick.

[canikickit]

Cannabis should be legalised because people should be allowed to choose for themselves how they live their lives(unless they cause others harm). I completely fail to understand how anyone can say otherwise.

Also (and far more important) cannabis can be used in paper production. Cannabis can be grown with no thc (the stuff that makes people stoned).
A field of cannabis, the same size as a field of trees can produce the same (or more) pulp. The difference is cannabis is an 120 day crop while trees are 20 years or so.
Their are a lot of theories which suggest cannabis was outlawed because of vested interests.

[Marxboriqua]

I believe both drugs and prostitution should be legalized ( and I take part in neither) because I hate having anyone telling me or anyone else what i can and cannot do.

[Stormin Norman]

But the people are generally, as Machiavelli said, wicked. They are greedy and need such policing. You cant have a semiperfect communist state with such degenerate people.
-from Mazdak

By that logic we would have to find some other method of government. If people are inherently wicked, and you can not trust them to run their own lives; why would you trust selective people to govern using powers of coercion? Isn't power considered to be one of the most corruptible ideas? Are you telling me that a governing body is incapable of corruption? How would your favored political system account for the inevitable degradation of institutions caused by the absolute power that you, Mazdak, are willing to hand over to a select few without question? How would government leadership be held accountable for their actions, and what measures would you put into place to curtail the potential devastation that would result from the type of idiocy that you promote?

Fact is communism fails to deal with any of these issues and is one of the reasons that demoralization and murder are the direct result of such regimes. Government leadership is not held accountable. Therefore they can kill millions of people with impunity. Democracy is the best way to insure that political leaders will act responsibly and in the 'people's' best interest. I happen to believe that most politicians that seek office engage in rent seeking, that is the self-interested political pursuit of private gain. If free and fair elections can be held in a timely manner, the beneficiary (the politician) will be better suited to pursue such profits in a manner that also benefits his constituents. If representatives are faced with possible removal from office through the election process, then blatant abuse of power and violations of human rights fail to surface at the same rate as in communist governments.

[Mazdak]

Stormin Norman, you are siding with the likes of them? I didnt think a conservative capitalist like yourself wouldever do something like this!

Hey, didnt i say AUTHORITARIANISM????!!!! That is kind of what it is about. A few people making all the changes and ruling with iron fists until the world is ready to handle communism. People will not go along with you willingly, if all you promise is a better life for their posterity.

[canikickit]

If representatives are faced with possible removal from office through the election process, then blatant abuse of power and violations of human rights fail to surface at the same rate as in communist governments.

Do you feel that democratic elections are not possible in communism? Or in socialism?
Your second paragraph is largely true but it is refering to regimes of the past. There is no reason to believe that it is inherently impossible to work in the future.
What logic leads you to this belief?
And what the fuck has all that got to do with prostitution?
And I thought you were leaving?

[samaniego]

I have no problem with prostitution. I do think that as commies your minds would come up with better things than this. At this rate the commie revolt, is never going to come. I think you all need some help from your man VOX. He's seems like the only one thats got his act together, despite being all talk and no action he knows his stuff.

[canikickit]

I'm not a "commie".
I don't really understand your post, it seems you haven't really read this thread in detail. I started this thread so I could gauge the intelligence of some of the peoples views on this subject, I don't think it has anything to do with the "commie revolt", as you so eloquently put it.


I do think that as commies your minds would come up with better things than this.

What does this mean? You don't even know me, and yet you presume that, as a commie i could come up with something better than this? I don't think you realise what you said there. Perhaps you should use the edit button.
Your post smacks of hatemongering and shit stirring. Would it not make some more sense to add something constructive about your views and perhaps engage in some debate? I think it would.

[munkey soup]

HA! Samaniego, don't you state here (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=989) that this board has no debate in it? Well, boyo, you just interrupted a fine argument between both leftists and right-wingers, with nothing but drivel and insults. You, my friend, need to back up and shut up. Think before you speak.



(Edited by munkey soup at 5:04 pm on Sep. 16, 2002)

[canikickit]

What munkey soup said as well, on top of that.

[boadicea88]

Here's a quote that explains what I think pretty well. It's from Theodore Roosevelt:

"
We all of us tend to rise or fall together. If any set of us goes down the whole nation sags a little. If any of us raise ourselves a little, then by just so much the nation as a whole is raised."

Mazdak has explained what I think should be done with them.

[Stormin Norman]

What I find the most remarkable is Vox's lack of criticism for those of you on the left that suggest prostitutes be imprisoned long term of rather put to death. Instead she wishes to take issue with the fact the I find them deplorable. The difference is that I think they should be subjected to their own mistakes, and the Stalinists think that they should suffer severe penalties.

I think that I may be on to why Vox fails to adequately chastize those of you on the left. It is implicit in Vox's world view that man's nature to think for himself should submit to the views of the collective. Perhaps this is why she finds my views to be more disgraceful than killing them outright. If a man or woman's freedom is squashed through a collective movement of communism then it is acceptable, because the right of the individual to chose is limited. However, if these dregs of society are left to their own demise, it presents a far scarier solution to Vox than shoving them into easy bake ovens.
Maybe this is the reason why she fails to address some of the points made by others of the left. Those on the left hold similar views and are engaged in the type of groupthink that Vox enjoys promoting. Slight differences of opinion can be tolerated as long as those who differ are of the same persuation.

Vox, you are more of a Nazi than you would ever care to admit.

[canikickit]

I think it has more to do with the fact that the peopel who suggest these views are foolish in the extreme, and are not worth the effort.

[Frosty]

Well, i didn't read the whole thread, but here is my 0.1 cent:
Prostitution discusts me. But the customers are even more discusting.
As i see it, prostitutes are a result of capitalism; they fall, and have to sell themself to other loosers to survive.

[Anonymous]

prostitution isnt wrong and it isnt you who shall ever say if it is a crime/sin/wrong etc.. prostitution is the oldest profession in the world, and it is a profession just like many others, and if a women (or men) decides to be prostitute its her decision, the prob is most women are forced to be prostitutes and have lamy condicions, PROSTITUTUION MUST BE LEGALIZED LIKE IN HOLAND! it must be legalized to and so it must have syndicats like other professions, prostitute´s body is hers not yours so they know what to do with theys bodies bether than you!

[Frosty]

I didn't say that ,i expressed my personal opinion on what i think about it and WHY i think it's there...
In anarchism, the physical need to prostitute yourself would not be there. But of course you would be free to use your time as you wanted :P

[canikickit]

Norm, if you looked at page four of this thread you would see that vox does address those people.

[GuerilleroUrbano]

Prostitution should be condemn by all leftist for it is a crime against humanity. It is like helping what capitalism created.
In every war made people are forced to sell thier bodies because they can't find any other jobs. Sometimes the money produced is used by our own political parties particurally in Latin America and Africa.

[Mazdak]

Canikickit, i have decided to completely ignore anything you post. All you have done is piss me off. Thinking about it makes me want to strangle you.

"Foolish,immature." is that all you have to say. WEll i honestly dont care about some dumbas stoner's opinion of me. All you know how to do is try my patience.

GU, good, show that you support keeping prostitution banned at the very least. This is so idiotic.

Canikickit has anyone ever kicked your ass? You really need it.

BTW- that isnt a threat, that is ventilation. I have had about enough of this guy. OH yeah, and i know you are jumping at the opportunity to "purge" this site of me, so i thought i would make that clear.

Cheerio!

[canikickit]

Canikickit, i have decided to completely ignore anything you post.

Good, I have no interest in what you have to say.
You are extremely talented at generalisations.

[Marxist1848]

Canikcik it.
Yes i am back now and yes, shut the fuck up. I cant believe this. I dont post for like 2 months. Then i come back, and you are still running diarrhea out of your mouth!!!
The only thing i have ever agreed with you on besides drug legalization is this. The argument that "prostitution spreads std's" is false. they only reason "std's" are passed is due to the fact that prostitution is illegal. because it is illegal, hookers have to sleep with ANYBODY to gain money because if they choose who to sleep with they dont sell enough. With police constantly trying to track them down they need to "do" anybody to make a signle penny.
With legalization though, there should be certain rules granted. Prostitution should become more of an industry. Lisences should be bought by the prostitutes and they should be pre screened for STD's. With legalization, prostitutes dont have to resort to hiding out while doing ANYONE, instead they can choose who they see fit to sleep with.

[Guest]

I'm agaisnt prostitution. People should be banned from going with Prostitues as well as people being banned from becoming prostitues. The punshiments for people looking for prostitues will be large fines and prostitues should be also fined but also given training to find a proper job.

[Marxist1848]

Pointless. Prostitution will always exist no matter how bad the punishment. Wouldnt it be better to let these girls do something legally under proper run and rule than to all be arrested? They should be given screening and allowed licenses. Authoritarian laws on this matter have no relevance at all. these are not public matters. Unless prostitution is legalized and industrialized it will stay private and infest the cities and make the city seem crime ridden. With this illegal, crime will be attracted to it and flourish. When legalized, it will be as innocent as a strip club, but more "interractive".

[canikickit]

Canikcik it.
Yes i am back now and yes, shut the fuck up. I cant believe this. I dont post for like 2 months. Then i come back, and you are still running diarrhea out of your mouth!!!

You're a fucking wierdo, man. The only thing I can remember you disagreeing with me about was on the Bullfighting thread, so we actually agree on 2 out of 3 things. (Unless there are some other things which you would like to point out to me?). I think this is more to do with the fact that your pal doesn't like me.
I don't care anyway. You seem like a moron. Going by the above quote.
Your views on prostitution are pretty much the same as mine.

[Mazdak]

Guest good. Marxist1848? Why waste time and effort legalizing something as sleazy as prostitution. You would really show what a cultured society you were if you had prostitutes everywhere huh? Moderation? No. Ban it. Authoritarian heavy handedness is needed here.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Mazdak on 3:18 am on Sep. 22, 2002
Guest good. Marxist1848? Why waste time and effort legalizing something as sleazy as prostitution. You would really show what a cultured society you were if you had prostitutes everywhere huh? Moderation? No. Ban it. Authoritarian heavy handedness is needed here.


Why not ban gambling, or liqour, or cigarettes, or books that talk about prostitution, or books that talk about sex.

Anyway I have a better idea, prostitutes love sex so muc, put them in male prisons to prevent homosexuality.

Each Inmate gets on congigal visit every two months

[Guest]

long as they don;t pass on std then it alright by me. besides it's perfectly in mexican countries certain countriees as long as they are of legal age and they would beat your pasty white ass down like an ethiopian midget if you said the contrary about civility they are quite cival why else would they be open minded anough to allow it as opposed wasting time manpower money and resources tring to stop in utter futility what cain;t or ever will. btw i'm not from beirut but my proxy server is ha. usa usa canada rules. viva la france.

[Mazdak]

Hey Lardlad, banning cigarettes and gambling was next.... how did you guess? I am dead serious.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, that'll work real well.

[Anonymous]

Yes, people are only allowed officially sanctioned pleasures as dictated by the all powerful Mazdak

[Stormin Norman]

"Norm, if you looked at page four of this thread you would see that vox does address those people."-CannIkickit

If this is what you are talking about:

Vox-"To those who receommend murder in dealing with prostitution, I suggest you look at what happened in Iran when such thought held sway."

I hardly think this could be considered equal to the three or four pages of diatribe that Vox berated me with. My original statements stand. Vox would rather fight those who oppose his ideology than seek truth and justice.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Mazdak on 4:32 am on Sep. 22, 2002
Hey Lardlad, banning cigarettes and gambling was next.... how did you guess? I am dead serious.



Like thats gonna happen, cuz next you will regulate weed.

If you do that Malte will go on a rampage killing everything in his path until his bowl is once again full

[canikickit]

I hardly think this could be considered equal to the three or four pages of diatribe that Vox berated me with. Vox would rather fight those who oppose his ideology than seek truth and justice.

No. I don't think so. Those people oppose his ideology also. Just because he spent more time with you does not suggest otherwise. I have often posted stuff on threads and been pretty much ignored. There are relationships formed on this board, whether people like it or not. Vox probably feels that you are more worthy of a response than the others for whatever reason. Your harping on that fact is pure bullshit.

[Mazdak]

Lardlad, who said anything about regulation. Addictives are not tolerated. Except maybe coffee. Wine might be able to stick around, hell, even alcohol might. But it would be heavily moderated.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Mazdak on 5:40 pm on Sep. 22, 2002
Lardlad, who said anything about regulation. Addictives are not tolerated. Except maybe coffee. Wine might be able to stick around, hell, even alcohol might. But it would be heavily moderated.

weed isn't addictive...and only Nymphos are addicted to sex

[Nateddi]

I am amazed that someone considering himself a marxist supports the toleration of the ultimate exploitation and symbol of class domination: prostitution.

Remember folks, women do not sell their bodies because its the thing to do, because it is their personal desire. Women sell their bodies to get drugs or to feed their own starving children.

[Anonymous]

But legalisation would bring these people out into the open, making it safer for them to work and allowing them to get support.

[Nateddi]

>>>But legalisation would bring these people out into the open, making it safer for them to work and allowing them to get support.

Explain how is it "safer" if it is legalized. Prostitution is unsafe as a direct result of the nature of the act, not the level of government control. Furthermore, if prostitution laws are liberalized, more women will turn to it instead of looking for real jobs.

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from Nateddi on 10:12 pm on Sep. 22, 2002
Explain how is it "safer" if it is legalized. Prostitution is unsafe as a direct result of the nature of the act, not the level of government control.

Wrong. If prostitution were legalised, then prostitutes would be able to use proper venues and would have regulations stopping them being used and exploited by pimps. Also, if they were to get an STD, they could seek medical help without worrying about the legal consequences. Admittedly, there is a certain danger in promiscuous sex, but the majority of dangers surrounding prostitution are in its hiding underground.


Furthermore, if prostitution laws are liberalized, more women will turn to it instead of looking for real jobs.

What quantifies a real job?? Being used by your boss instead of a pimp??

Whatever your personal opinions on prostitution, there is no justification for inflicting your opinion upon the whole people. The same can be said for all conservative values.

[new democracy]

my opinion about legalization of prostitution: no!!!! prostitution is humiliating, and most of prostitutes are only working at that job because it's there only way of making money. except for a few, no prostitute is doing that for fun. canikickit, the fact that you want to legalize it show that you have no respect for human dignity.

[canikickit]

canikickit, the fact that you want to legalize it show that you have no respect for human dignity

That's horseshit. Most of the people here who are against the legalisation are spouting horseshit.
I have no faith whatsoever in the so called "powers that be" controlling the disease, violence and drugs that permeate the prostitution business. Prostitution has been around for as long as history records. It is not going away through criminal prosectution, and what I (and others) have suggested is an actual solution. The moral issues remain, but they are there as it is.

[canikickit]

Here are two short pieces of news courtesy of Euronews (http://www.euronews.net):

Women and children for sale - must stop... easier said than done
(http://www.euronews.net/create_html.php?page=detail_europa&lng=1&option=6,europa)
Human traffic
(http://www.euronews.net/create_html.php?page=detail_europa&lng=1&option=1,europa)

This doesn't affect my stance. I was already aware of these issues, but I still maintain that if a woman was taken advantage of in this way, she would be better off if it was legal. As far as I understand the problem of human trafficing still occurs in the Netherlands, but I would imagine they would have more control over what is happening.

[canikickit]

Factbook on Global Sexual Exploitation: The Netherlands[/url

[url=http://www.worldsexguide.org/netherlands.html]More Info (http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/netherl.htm)

There are two more site detailing some of the legal details of prostitution along with details of trafficing. These do not help my belief in the slightest.

Here is a quote from one of them:


Sources were not contacted to verify information. Close examination will reveal that there are contradictions in information depending on the sources of information (ex: how many women are in prostitution in Thailand). All statistics are reported with no attempt to evaluate which numbers are more likely to be accurate. In fact, the exact numbers in many cases are not known and estimates come from different sources which use different methods to determine what they report.

I don't like the fact that, in one of the above articles it says that the women are not required to get health checks. I believe they should be.

[Nateddi]

guerrillaradio:

Pimps do not go away if prostitution is legal. Pimping works, and as long as there are prostitutes, there are going to be pimps as well. The "Boss" of the "real job" exploits you the same way a pimp may, I agree. However what differentiates a real job from prostitution is the fundamental fact that prostitutes sell their bodies in order to support bad habits or to keep themselves fed, prostitution is a perversion of the class society, a symbol of class dominance. You are very rich, you do not see rich women giving their bodies up to rich men in your neighborhood for obvious reasons.

Conservatives wish to limit freedom for the benefit of the society as a whole. It is very ill thought to believe that any group of people limits freedom for no rational reason. The ironic thing is, socialists have the same goals [often not realizing that fact] as conservatives: to limit freedom for the benefit of society as a whole.

[Anonymous]

Because pimps will have to be subject to quality control, workers rights would have to be protected meaning that prostitutes would not have to run from the police and could report any problems.

As this legalised prostitution would be much more legal and safer the shady backstreet pimps would be driven out of business.And who says prostitution isnt a real job? Very few women could in truth turn to prostitution.

[guerrillaradio]

"guerrillaradio:

Pimps do not go away if prostitution is legal. Pimping works, and as long as there are prostitutes, there are going to be pimps as well."

The difference being, in a society where prostitution is allowed, pimps can be regulated by the law, much like any other trade. Sure it won't be perfect, but the prostitute's work will be much safer and fairer.

"The "Boss" of the "real job" exploits you the same way a pimp may, I agree. However what differentiates a real job from prostitution is the fundamental fact that prostitutes sell their bodies in order to support bad habits or to keep themselves fed, prostitution is a perversion of the class society, a symbol of class dominance."

So prostitutes should suffer repression cos of their symbolism?? Sorry kid...doesn't wash with me.

"You are very rich..."

Sorry?? Since when were you an expert on my financial standing??

"...you do not see rich women giving their bodies up to rich men in your neighborhood for obvious reasons."

Actually, there is a community of "rich" whores, who have their clients in classy hotel rooms rather than back alleys. Many of them revolve around Hollywood...

"Conservatives wish to limit freedom for the benefit of the society as a whole. It is very ill thought to believe that any group of people limits freedom for no rational reason. The ironic thing is, socialists have the same goals [often not realizing that fact] as conservatives: to limit freedom for the benefit of society as a whole."

That is very sweeping. Conservatives wish to inflict their view and perception of morality upon society, regardless of its opinion as a whole. Socialists wish to introduce economic restraints to stop exploitation. There is a difference, a huge one.

In fact, I see socialism as an extension of my liberalism. My liberalism revolves around one's right to be on an equal standing with all, which requires certain restraints to stop exploitation. That should be quite clear.

(Edited by guerrillaradio at 11:24 pm on Sep. 23, 2002)

[Mazdak]

GR- do you really ever think that humans will have complete freedom??

And what you are saying, legalize prostitution... why??? What purpose would it serve when legalized. To give pleasure to the dregs of society? Why do you want to bring the morals of a civilization into the gutter? That is all you are basically doing. And no matter how moderated, the woman is being exploited.

[guerrillaradio]

"GR- do you really ever think that humans will have complete freedom??"

No...and I don't wish for or believe in absolutist freedom either. Hence I am a socialist.

"And what you are saying, legalize prostitution... why???"

You are asking the wrong question here. It should not be "why legalise" but "why criminalise". In the same way as the legal system works on the premise of "innocent until proven guilty", the law should work on a premise of "legal until proven detrimental to society as a whole". Whether it is detrimental or not is another debate.

"What purpose would it serve when legalized. To give pleasure to the dregs of society?"

Why shouldn't the so-called "dregs of society" be allowed pleasure?? Should pleasure only be given to the lucky?? That's a very capitalist idea, is it not??

"Why do you want to bring the morals of a civilization into the gutter? That is all you are basically doing."

Quite apart from whether prostitution is moral or immoral, it is not the government's business to regulate morality. Morality is not an absolute. It does not exist as a concrete truth. You have different morals to I, therefore morality is relative from person to person. And you cannot justify inflicting your morality upon someone else.

"And no matter how moderated, the woman is being exploited."

So be it. So many millions of people are exploited anyway, I fail to see the difference. Under regulated legality, women's exploitation would dramatically decrease in ways that I have listed above.

[Guest]

Prostitution is sick and degrading to women. There are virtually no women who sell there bodies because they like doing it. They do it to feed their children or pay for addictions such as drugs or alcohol. I think heavly fining people who use prostitues will be heplful.

Prostitues should be given job training so they can get a real job.

In my opinion guerrillaradio the state should govern moralty so the society doesn't descend into nullism where all lifestyles are treated the same when they are clearly not. Sometimes it's good to restrict peoples freedoms for the common good of the society.

[Mazdak]

GR- i dont have different morals from you, i simply HAVE morals. You dont.

Why criminalise? in that case, why criminalise theft and murder? Why criminalise pedaphilia? That is twisted logic.

Who else goes to prostitutes? Besides the dregs of society, no one does. If you are a decent person, you can get a wife for gods sake.

There should be an incentive to be a decent human being... that is one of them. Love and sex should not be sooo far apart. prostitution makes sex not about love, but about sex and sex alone.

[new democracy]

Quote: from guerrillaradio on 8:42 pm on Sep. 24, 2002
"What purpose would it serve when legalized. To give pleasure to the dregs of society?"

Why shouldn't the so-called "dregs of society" be allowed pleasure?? Should pleasure only be given to the lucky?? That's a very capitalist idea, is it not??

though the "dregs of society" is a capitalist term and it is disgusting that mazdak is using this term, why those people should enjoy of other people suffer?

[Mazdak]

ND- What the fuck do you think prostitution is??? Enjoying the suffering of others.

Just because i am leftist doesnt mean that i think some guy who spends all his time wanking off to pictures of cats and little boys in his basement is worth as much asa successful and DECENT guy who does his work, and has no sick perversions.

[Moskitto]

wanking off to pictures of cats

That made me laugh for some reason, i'm not sick or anything, it's just the idea of some guy with pictures of cats while wanking was funny. Or he's sitting by his computer and a cat comes into the garden...

that is just weird.

[canikickit]

Jesus Christ



prostitution makes sex not about love, but about sex and sex alone.

Lots of people have sex for sex, and not for love.


Besides the dregs of society, no one does

Charlie Sheen and Hugh Grant


why criminalise theft and murder? Why criminalise pedaphilia?

Totally different.


Prostitution is sick and degrading to women. There are virtually no women who sell there bodies because they like doing it. They do it to feed their children or pay for addictions such as drugs or alcohol.

Of course this would only happen if it was legal. None of this happens at present. Absolutely. There is too much logic here.


Explain how is it "safer" if it is legalized.

Regulation of STDs. Regulations as in none.
Safer enviornment.
Better pay.
Security.
Read the earlier posts..


What purpose would it serve when legalized.

Stupid fucking question. What purpose does it serve now?



Nobody has presented any viable solutions. Only those who support legalisation. Legalisation is not a solution but it's a damn sight better than the alternatives. The gov't not doing a great job of it, is it?

(Edited by canikickit at 2:31 am on Sep. 25, 2002)

[Mazdak]

Ok, i vowed to ignore you, but i will respond here

Charlie sheen and hugh grant? Oh they are sooo admirable.

DREGS OF SOCIETY. If they get prostitutes, that includes them. good.

[canikickit]

Okay. You obviously have a strange definition for the dregs of society.
What about everything else in the post?

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from Guest on 9:22 pm on Sep. 24, 2002
In my opinion guerrillaradio the state should govern moralty so the society doesn't descend into nullism where all lifestyles are treated the same when they are clearly not. Sometimes it's good to restrict peoples freedoms for the common good of the society.


TS right?? Well the concept of government-enforced morality is unjust for the simple reason that morality is not an absolute, and by definition, no one man is more morally correct than the next. Therefore, it is wrong for one views system to dominate another.

Besides, morality cannot be forced. just cos something is criminalised does not mean that the state and its people are moral. If you wanted morality, you'd probably have more effect by trying to explain your point of view to the immoral entities. Just throwing your weight around will not achieve the state you want.

[guerrillaradio]

"GR- i dont have different morals from you, i simply HAVE morals. You dont."

LOL...I suggest you read up on morality then we can debate that point.

"Why criminalise? in that case, why criminalise theft and murder? Why criminalise pedaphilia? That is twisted logic."

No it isn't. There are valid reasons for why theft, murder and paedophilia are illegal, which are so obvious that I feel that they don't need pointing out. My point was that you were asking the wrong question in "why legalise" and that it should be "why criminalise". Of course, you didn't read my post properly.

"Who else goes to prostitutes? Besides the dregs of society, no one does. If you are a decent person, you can get a wife for gods sake."

Oh Christ...does that really deserve answering?? I think I'll leave it there for people to work out for themselves its banality.

ND:

"why those people should enjoy of other people suffer?"

you are assuming that all prostitutes are suffering. Maybe they are, but such an assumption is dangerous. Maybe they really enjoy sex, and would rather be getting paid for something they enjoy than something they hate.

Just remember that many people consider a 9-5 job to be "suffering". And the only reason they have that job, is to improve the life quality of others (supposedly). So should we stop them??

[Mazdak]

Banality? So some guy who puts cameras behind toilet seats in public bathrooms deserves a wife? Or anything for that matter?

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from Mazdak on 9:17 pm on Sep. 25, 2002
Banality? So some guy who puts cameras behind toilet seats in public bathrooms deserves a wife? Or anything for that matter?

Is that all you have to say?? What kinda reply is that?? Once again Mazdak, you're deliberately skirting the issue...

[Mazdak]

You claim my comment was "banality." Care to explain why? I am skirting nothing, you said something and i replied. that simple.

[canikickit]

Quote: from Mazdak on 9:17 pm on Sep. 25, 2002
Banality? So some guy who puts cameras behind toilet seats in public bathrooms deserves a wife? Or anything for that matter?

Mazdak, I really find it difficult to understand how you can get offended by my saying you are "foolish" or "immature" when you say things like this. It is not relevant. It is scaremongering.


If you are a decent person, you can get a wife for gods sake.

That's simply not true. It also doesn't have anything to do with the issue. Married people sometimes go to prostitutes, all you are doing is trying to say they are immoral, that is not a good enough reason to keep it illegal. It is illegal now, and those problems are still there. Your pathetic "solution" seems fairly final to me. You know what I mean? You nazi fuck.

(Edited by canikickit at 10:16 pm on Sep. 25, 2002)

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from Mazdak on 10:14 pm on Sep. 25, 2002
You claim my comment was "banality." Care to explain why?

I think it's quite self-evident. Not all "decent" people get wives, as you well know. I don't think we can debate such stupid points...