Catcalling: creepy or a compliment?

[ManyAntsDefeatSpiders]

Article. (http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal/05/14/lw.catcalls/index.html)

Thoughts?

[Module]

The vast majority of the time it's creepy. Obviously to different degrees depending on the situation, but I very rarely find it flattering when some stranger feels the need to make a comment about my body

The worst is people who make kissing noises. It's just fucking gross.
Or when a car will drive past and somebody will yell 'Slut!' out the window (no matter what you're wearing.)
I hate the fact that some men feel compelled to make comments about the way any woman looks.
I don't doubt that those men see women as things that are there simply to improve their lives - that their worth is decided on the way they make them feel.
And if they like the look of a woman, they have a right to let her know, and she should be flattered that a man thinks of her that way.
After all, that's what they're there for.
........ :glare:

Not a compliment, just disrespectful.

[ManyAntsDefeatSpiders]

Or when a car will drive past and somebody will yell 'Slut!' out the window (no matter what you're wearing.)

Wow, that happened to you? That's disgusting!

I've had things yelled out at me, but no one calling me a slut! :mad:

---

I mean, what I was trying to 'get at' was at what point does a compliment become plain disrespectful?

And I agree with Desrumeaux: it's a matter of context.

People dress/make themselves look a certain way to appear attractive to people they want they attention from. And of course, it's a confidence booster and, somewhat, representative of your 'status' amongst females, whether that is a 'good' thing or not is really not relevant here because we're discussing how males react to females. That has more to do with beauty standards.

Anyhow, as I said, everyone is happy to receive attention from someone whom they actually have a *chance* with, and of course, there are all sorts of criteria which determine whether someone has a 'chance' with someone else - age difference, looks, level of intoxication, how you treat that person etc.

I think its a matter of reciprocation.

For instance, being hit on by a drunk 50 year old man, with leers like 'Hey sexy!' or whatever, is a 'one way' street sort of compliment. Like Des said, its a matter of that man 'getting off' on his sexual feelings to you. Now, that is treating you like an object.

As for cat-calling - I think that is the same scenario - it's not a matter of a man genuinely wanting sex from you (because, frankly, if he did want to get into your pants its socially understood that cat calling is not a means to do so). And indeed, in the article I linked, a woman who did a documentary on cat-calling, actually chased men whom had cat-called at her! The men were so embarrassed about cat-calling, to women they apparently thought were good looking, that they ran away - they were embarrassed at how they had objectivised that woman and how having to come face to face with that person was just shameful.

It's simply denying the person their sexual agency - and that is something which we should be struggling against.

On the other hand, if there was a man matched in looks, not huge age difference, even if he wanted to get into your pants (which is perfectly fine), he would approach it in a completley different manner, which doesn't involve you being on the receiving end of his sexual comments, but rather is a two-way street which allows for sexual agency on behalf of the female.

[Lector Malibu]

It's creepy. I get hit on all the time , sometimes in an aggressive manor and it weirds me out.

It's also pretty insulting I think.

[TC]

Excellent post ManyAntsDefeatSpiders I agree with literally everything you wrote...in fact its almost creepily similar to what I was about to post to the point that i really have nothing to add to it.

[ManyAntsDefeatSpiders]

It's creepy. I get hit on all the time , sometimes in an aggressive manor and it weirds me out.

It's also pretty insulting I think.

Well, I think its hard to put blanket statements/opinions on these matters.

By the same token, being 'hit on' can be quite flattering (maybe a cute emo-guy? :p)


Excellent post ManyAntsDefeatSpiders I agree with literally everything you wrote...in fact its almost creepily similar to what I was about to post to the point that i really have nothing to add to it.

Thanks TragicClown.

Great minds must think alike, huh? :p

(I did actually look at a few threads involving 'sexual objectivisation' prior to posting, and agreed a lot of what you said.)

For anyone interested, this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/sexual-objectification-t46478/index.html?t=46478) thread, particularly TC and LSD's posts, had me nodding my head in agreement.


Indeed, that's probably the best definition of a healthy sexual relationship: mutual objectification.

[Lector Malibu]

Well, I think its hard to put blanket statements/opinions on these matters.

By the same token, being 'hit on' can be quite flattering (maybe a cute emo-guy? :p)


I hardly put out a blanket statement.

[ManyAntsDefeatSpiders]

I hardly put out a blanket statement.

Didn't say you did. :)

[Lector Malibu]

Didn't say you did. :)

I think I must have misunderstood that. :lol:

Carry on

[YeOldeCommuniste]

I generally find it annoying and creepy... and quite unnecessary. Oh, and rude as well.

[eyedrop]

On the other hand, if there was a man matched in looks, not huge age difference, even if he wanted to get into your pants (which is perfectly fine), he would approach it in a completley different manner, which doesn't involve you being on the receiving end of his sexual comments, but rather is a two-way street which allows for sexual agency on behalf of the female.

A lot of men is clueless of how to approach a woman and show interest. Just look at how many try to show how interested they are by buying drinks

[Wanted Man]

"Being in a public space with a strange man who is being sexually aggressive is potentially dangerous," Hadleigh-West added.


"When a man catcalls you, you don't know if it will end at that point or if it could escalate to assault," she added.

If you are a woman out on the street alone, YOU WILL GET RAPED. :rolleyes:

Anyway, what's much worse is when a woman can't go out on the street without passers-by yelling "whore" at her. For wearing a skirt, tight jeans, or, well... anything besides a burqa, apparently.

[Plagueround]

I never saw the point in it. If I'm attracted to a person I wait for the right situation to talk to them and distinguish myself in someway as being worthy of their attention (and not always in a sexual way, just in general).

Other than the rare exceptions where it may be situationally appropriate (I can't think of any at the moment), all catcalling does is make you look like some sort of sexually enraged knuckledragger...certainly not the first impression I would want to make on anyone.

But then, I've always been a bit shy when first approaching people of any gender, so it's not really like me to shout at someone I've never met.

[Plagueround]

A lot of men is clueless of how to approach a woman and show interest. Just look at how many try to show how interested they are by buying drinks

I think this is an often overlooked side effect of a patriarchal society. Even with the progress women have made, most of society expects that a man must be the one to "make the first move". I would be willing to bet a lot of the stupid behavior you see come from men has a lot to do with the pressure they feel to live up to this role.

[Bright Banana Beard]

I think this is an often overlooked side effect of a patriarchal society. Even with the progress women have made, most of society expects that a man must be the one to "make the first move". I would be willing to bet a lot of the stupid behavior you see come from men has a lot to do with the pressure they feel to live up to this role.

True, many female I knew kept telling me to tell their "partner" to make a first move. I would not do that and I am waiting for female to make the first move on me. Is this consider sexist? Cuz then wow, I am surprised.

[Destroy capitalism]

my best one ever was a builder who said : I am taken aback by your beauty. and his mate yelled :and he means it too.
it went on up to age about 46, i mean they'd be teenagers going 'hey baby' so i'd just yell back 'you mean hey granny'
my best comeback to : giviz a ride -'I didn't bring my magnifying glass to find your dick'
i used to find the simplest way to have a day free of van men, telephone engineers, road diggers was to wear my glasses! worked every time.

[AGITprop]

Cat-calling is definitely pointless, and I've never seen it go anywhere.
A couple years back, when I was at the metro station, there was this pretty girl who was on the platform in front of me, and as my train left, a made a kissing motion to her. She gave me the finger:lol: I deserved it I guess. The thing is though, sometimes girls will just smile at you and keep walking if you whistle at them or something.

But yeah, approaching women or 'hitting' on them, is difficult most of the time for me. I'm also shy at times.

I don't find women try to hit on guys enough.


Heres another anecdote;

I was at work one day, and me, the boss and a few other workers get into an elevator to go up to our workplace. As we get in, a VERY attractive woman walks in as well. I don't quite remember what she was wearing but it was revealing.We are all looking at her, it was hard not to. She was really pissed off....


But geez, on one hand, she should be allowed to dress however she likes, on the other, she should be ready to attract looks by men. I don't think she has the right to complain, I mean, its not like we were abusing her, just looking (lol, and its not like we were staring her down)

What do you think?:glare:

[Mujer Libre]

Cat-calling is definitely pointless, and I've never seen it go anywhere.
As MADS stated in her excellent post, the point of cat-calling, especially say, out of a moving car, is not for it to "go anywhere"- it's to belittle the woman, treat her like an object and reinforce the man's own ego.

Also, regarding the woman in the lift, there's a difference between subtly looking and ogling. The former is fine, the latter is disgusting when it comes from a random stranger in public.

[RHIZOMES]

I'm a guy but I get people in moving cars commenting on my appearance too. Not as frequently as women obviously by it gets rather annoying and it usually gives me a fright since when I'm walking on a sidewalk I'm kinda immersed in my own world.

[Dean]

Article. (http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal/05/14/lw.catcalls/index.html)

Thoughts?

Catcalling, along with all the sexist shit a lot of construction workers say, is aggravating bullshit that makes me uncomfortable to be around someone. Especially when you consider how many women are entering construction type jobs now, making offhand sexist remarks, jokes and catcalling is extremely uncalled for.

[Zurdito]

Cat-calling is definitely pointless, and I've never seen it go anywhere.
A couple years back, when I was at the metro station, there was this pretty girl who was on the platform in front of me, and as my train left, a made a kissing motion to her. She gave me the finger:lol: I deserved it I guess. The thing is though, sometimes girls will just smile at you and keep walking if you whistle at them or something.

But yeah, approaching women or 'hitting' on them, is difficult most of the time for me. I'm also shy at times.

I don't find women try to hit on guys enough.


Heres another anecdote;

I was at work one day, and me, the boss and a few other workers get into an elevator to go up to our workplace. As we get in, a VERY attractive woman walks in as well. I don't quite remember what she was wearing but it was revealing.We are all looking at her, it was hard not to. She was really pissed off....


But geez, on one hand, she should be allowed to dress however she likes, on the other, she should be ready to attract looks by men. I don't think she has the right to complain, I mean, its not like we were abusing her, just looking (lol, and its not like we were staring her down)

What do you think?:glare:


well why not just put yourself in her position, especially as you are shy...imagine being constantly observed for your physical appearance wherever you go.

yes I am realistic, men and women will look at each other, hwoever, you can probablyimagine the difference between a woman subtly "giving you the eye", and a group of people drooling over you like you were a car...if imagining women doing this doesn't do the trick, imagine it's a group of older guys instead.

not very nice.

also, on the ideaof dressing "revealing": a womans body is not a taboo, fetishised object which is inherently sexual at all times. it's MAy, you are in the northern hemisphere,therefore presumably it's summer...so, why shouldn't people be able to dress in a way that keeps them cool? should she have to cover up her body and go around uncomfortably over-dressed, just so that she doesn't "provoke" men? is putting her body "on display" comparable to someone waving a peice of meat to a gang of ravenous dogs, or something? I mean come on, she has a body, it's jsut flesh and blood, she is allowed to do what she wants with it, if it's hot weather the she can dress down to keep cool!

btw I hope you don't think I am being an asshole. it's nothing personal. but really this issue is quite important.

[Prairie Fire]

I don't think creepy or compliment adiquately covers what cat-calling is.

I don't think any guy has any real intentions of sex with any womyn they harrass that way; as near as I can figure, it's just a way to assert dominance over womyn, to feel powerful.

If I'm wrong, and any guy actually thinks that'll work, well...

Or, maybe they're just trying to over-compensate for their own sexual insecurities in front of their friends :D.

[Black Dagger]

Catcalling, along with all the sexist shit a lot of construction workers say, is aggravating bullshit that makes me uncomfortable to be around someone.

Is that a real thing? :confused:

Sure there are sexist construction workers, construction workers who cat-call etc., but it just seems a bit silly to single out 'construction workers' for special mention when public displays of chauvinism and cat-calling covers a much broader range of people.

As for the topic generally - i think MADS covered my feelings excellently.

[Zurdito]

yes exactly, I had the same reaction when I read that. what about the sexism of city high-fliers or businessmen?

it seemed like a snobbish and stereotypical comment.

[TC]

Is that a real thing? :confused:

Sure there are sexist construction workers, construction workers who cat-call etc., but it just seems a bit silly to single out 'construction workers' for special mention when public displays of chauvinism and cat-calling covers a much broader range of people.


Its totally a real thing; if you were a remotely attractive female you'd know that they are more or less the only people who do it, while sober, while not on holiday, in broad daylight, a lot. The stereotype is really true.

I'm not sure that its necessarily that construction workers are just bigger pricks then other people or that its an occupation that frequently has all-male work sites all day in close proximity to people passing on the street. Maybe it also attracts a certain sort of person since the cultural connotations and stereotypes of construction workers are macho but not sexy (as opposed to say street cleaners who are neither or firefighters who are both) so they expect to be sexually expressive but not sexually desirable.


yes exactly, I had the same reaction when I read that. what about the sexism of city high-fliers or businessmen?

it seemed like a snobbish and stereotypical comment.



Theres nothing snobbish about it, its just a reality. The fact is that "city high-fliers or businessmen" only really harass women on the street at night, when they're drunk enough to lose the social inhibitions that keep educated men who work with female colleagues from being pigs all the time. The office might be a male dominated setting but not nearly to the extent as a construction yard or work site, and there are more social checks on professionals and sales staff than manual labourers.

Another significant difference is that more businessmen are used to be sexually desirable than construction workers are; an average 27 year old businessman can socialize with female college students in clubs, an average mid 30s construction worker can't they'd be out of place.

In a lot of ways the surviving patriarchal relations are sometimes less checked among people who work in skilled vocational jobs than either unskilled workers or professional staff since that strata is most closed to women.

[chimx]

This article surprises me honestly. I've been working construction jobs for 4 or 5 years in two different states and I heard my first "catcall" just a few months ago. One guy (who was new) I worked with whistled at a woman walking down the street and immediately everybody on our crew chastised him and told him not to do it for sexual harassment reasons.

I've done new construction on large job sites, residential shit, repairs on old commercial jobs, etc. Basically all the different surroundings you could imagine, and I never hear cat calling.

[Black Dagger]

Its totally a real thing; if you were a remotely attractive female you'd know that they are more or less the only people who do it, while sober, while not on holiday, in broad daylight, a lot. The stereotype is really true.

What about all the people who yell things out of cars? Or on the street out at night (from across the street or as you go past)?

I've no doubt that what you're saying happens, but i just don't buy that construction workers are 'more or less' the only people who cat-call - that seems an over-statement of the facts, esp. given chimx' post.

[Module]

What about all the people who yell things out of cars? Or on the street out at night (from across the street or as you go past)?

I've no doubt that what you're saying happens, but i just don't buy that construction workers are 'more or less' the only people who cat-call - that seems an over-statement of the facts, esp. given chimx' post.
I agree with this.
I don't think that construction workers do it disproportionately. In fact, I can't think of any specific group of men that I think does it more often than others,
There have been plenty of businessmen who will make comments, when it's dark and they're walking alone.
The only difference between businessmen and construction workers is that when businessmen do it around other people, it's more likely to damage their reputation. Henceforth, they do it by themselves - but they still do it.
The last time I can remember being spoken to by a construction worker was when one said good morning to me on the way to class. They're stereotyped to always be the creepy ones, but from what I can remember, they don't seem to be.

[Revolutiondownunder]

Im male, and to tell you the truth I find it creepy as hell when other guys do it to a girl right in front of me.

Always brings up an awkward situation as a male when you ask a male not to do such things.

Some see it as a direct confrontation, caveman style.:rolleyes:

Some boys just never grow up....

[Jazzratt]

What the hell kind of fuck up considers doing that a compliment to someone?

[careyprice31]

What the hell kind of fuck up considers doing that a compliment to someone?

Exactly. Its just immature. Seriously, guys who do it, grow the fuk up.

Im a woman and i've never gotten cat calling, instead I get elevator pervs, total male strangers stalking me and asking me to go to their house. Which is almost the same thing :rolleyes:

and when i told my boyfriend he was like "what the FUK?!"

I was like "yea, I know"

[TC]

What about all the people who yell things out of cars? Or on the street out at night (from across the street or as you go past)?

I've no doubt that what you're saying happens, but i just don't buy that construction workers are 'more or less' the only people who cat-call - that seems an over-statement of the facts, esp. given chimx' post.

Err re-read my post, don't extract 'more or less' out of context I said 'more or less' the only people who do it while sober, in broad day light, a lot. The later half of that sentence was the relevant bit.

Clearly on the street out at night is not "in broad day light"

Drunk guys, tourists, and guys in areas with lots of nightclubs yell stuff more often than construction workers do at night but during the day not so much.

And there is a difference, people in general are less inhibited at night and especially when drunk or on holiday.



There have been plenty of businessmen who will make comments, when it's dark and they're walking alone.

Yah but not during the day :p. Making comments during the day requires a whole different level of uninhibited rudeness.

I mean I honestly can't at least off the top of my head think of a single instance where a businessman had said anything creepy or obscene during the middle of the day on the street. At night on the street, sure, in bars, sure, and not just alone either but groups of drunk upper middle class guys are far worse at night than construction workers are during the day...

...but I don't think the stereotype is totally unjustified in that, well, say, (for anyone who knows London geography) you might get comments from multiple guys in a night in Soho or Shoreditch (between 11pm and 3am, and on average you probably wont get any comments from guys at all in Bloomsbury from 1pm to 4pm, but if you get any, its probably a construction worker. I'm sorry, just an honest observation

[TC]

Im male, and to tell you the truth I find it creepy as hell when other guys do it to a girl right in front of me.

Always brings up an awkward situation as a male when you ask a male not to do such things.


Why should that be like, surprizing, only the biggest most egomanical assholes in the world are like that, and if you associate with them without not just saying something but expressing a degree of outrage you're encouraging them.

I mean I always try to give guys the finger or yell 'fuck you' especially if they're with friends. I consider it an act of public service to try to embarrass assholes otherwise they'll think they can do it with impunity. :rolleyes:

[Marsella]

I'll be honest. Most of the time I like the attention. :lol: :D

But there are times when its well...embarassing and unwanted. Of course, I can't extrapolate my feelings regarding it to all females. But I'd just thought I'd raise the point that sometimes getting attention, yes even from pervs, is quite a confidence booster, regardless of the social causes behind it. :\

:closedeyes:

[Qwerty Dvorak]

I think a lot of it depends on the country. I'm from Ireland and I can't remember ever hearing catcalling by any sober person. Of course I'm not exactly listening out for it when walking down the street so maybe some of it escapes me, but the people I have ever heard catcalling were drunk, and either students or unemployed (or at least I would assume they were unemployed as it was the middle of the working day and they were drunk, maybe not though). I walk down a long road from the student accommodation where I live to the Luas (tram). There is often some construction work going on there and a lot of very attractive college girls walking either direction at any one time and I have never heard any of them "catcalled". I don't think it's a problem in Ireland at all to be honest.

Also, chimx said that he and his crew chastised a catcaller for "sexual harassment reasons", so I'm assuming wherever chimx works has fairly strict sexual harassment laws and/or a more vigilant populace in terms of reporting violations of said laws. This would probably mean that sexual harassment is less likely to come from skilled workers, professionals or generally those with something to lose. It could just be then that the problem in England (which is where TC lives, and she seems to have had the greatest problem with this?) is due to a peculiar mixture of chauvinistic, sexually aggressive social traits and law sexual harassment laws/law enforcement. The extent to which these factors may be present in other countries I'm not sure.

[chimx]

^^^ Yes. I actually didn't say a word about it. Everybody else on my crew jumped on the guy first. But the main concern is that the harassed woman will call the shop and we'll get in trouble. I don't think anybody on my crew necessary has moral problems with it. It's definately viewed in terms of legality.

Of course, everybody on my crew, including myself, will make a comment to ourselves if an attractive woman walks by, but this is always done far away or in a truck so only we can hear. The perversity of the comments ranges in degrees from person to person, but again, this is just amongst ourselves and not directed at women. I think you'll find this the case with most construction people in the US.

[Uncle Hank]

It's pretty horrible. It encourages sexism and objectification, and leads to terms such as "*****" and "whore", as well as many other terribly degrading ones, becoming commonplace. If I see a friend doing anything of the sort a rebuke is definitely in order.

[Dean]

Is that a real thing? :confused:

Sure there are sexist construction workers, construction workers who cat-call etc., but it just seems a bit silly to single out 'construction workers' for special mention when public displays of chauvinism and cat-calling covers a much broader range of people.

As for the topic generally - i think MADS covered my feelings excellently.


yes exactly, I had the same reaction when I read that. what about the sexism of city high-fliers or businessmen?

it seemed like a snobbish and stereotypical comment.


This article surprises me honestly. I've been working construction jobs for 4 or 5 years in two different states and I heard my first "catcall" just a few months ago. One guy (who was new) I worked with whistled at a woman walking down the street and immediately everybody on our crew chastised him and told him not to do it for sexual harassment reasons.

I've done new construction on large job sites, residential shit, repairs on old commercial jobs, etc. Basically all the different surroundings you could imagine, and I never hear cat calling.

Well, I've done construction for ~2-3 years and I hear sexist shit on most days.I don't hear catcalling specifically but I hear a lot of anti-women remarks every day. I'm sure its not a distinct thing to construction work, but I haven't had that experience elsewhere. I don't think its snobby to recognize your surroundings.

[Revolutiondownunder]

Why should that be like, surprizing, only the biggest most egomanical assholes in the world are like that, and if you associate with them without not just saying something but expressing a degree of outrage you're encouraging them.

:rolleyes:

Working class teenage males tend towards sexist behavior, I stand up to it every time it appears, this just gets me a reputation for being "gay":rolleyes: and they make a point of doing this again in front of me.

I could allways find new friends, but these guys are just SO left wing! They are anti-racist pro-working class anti-capitalist etc...

But they dont seem to understand why women should be treated with the same respect you treat a man, go through the reasons why capitalism promotes sexism and they just say that its too "heavy" and totally ignore me!:cursing:

But considering the number of seriously racist morons at my school these guys are about as good as it gets...:(